Right, Left or somewhere in between

[No Surrender]

hooleybooley: No offense mate, but those cases are dishonest comparisons to the situation to the US. Iraq had massive stockpiles of weapons which were left unguarded when Saddam was toppled. Somalia, to be kind, is in a state of anarchy. The Viet-Cong were being supplied by the NVA. The CCP confiscated weapons from warlords which effectively ruled china due to a weak central government. The American Revolution and the French Revolution took place at a time when warfighting was completely different to what it is today. None of these circumstances bear any resemblance to citizens spontaneously taking their own weapons and fighting a government.

The reason automatic firearms are banned from civilian ownership is that most people will panic in a stressful situation and start spraying at whoever's threatening them which in turn will cause even more injuries or deaths. The proliferation of firearms in the criminal fraternity in the US was probably in part influenced by the fact that so many civilians carried guns. It's simple escalation: if their victims are unarmed, they carried knives. When the victims started carrying knives, they carried pisols. When when victims start carrying pistols, they'll resort to carrying automatic weapons. What then? Everyone has to carry a Kalashnikov when they go down to the shops at night?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Gun Ownership: People can own all the guns they want as long as they don't work very well.

Gun Control: Gun transfers need to be restricted and controlled, particularly handguns. Ideally gun use would be restricted to hunting and firing ranges unless there is a compelling reason. Irresponsibility should result in draconian punishment. Generally speaking, don't carry a weapon you don't intend to use.

Abortion: Pro-choice. Every situation is unique and it should be up to the woman to decide.

Gay Marriage: Not any different from regular marriage.

Universal Health Care: The only sensible thing in ethical, economic and practical terms. (Things this doesn't mean: nationalize every hospital and clinic you can get your hands on.)

Current War: First rule of holes, stop digging.

Illegal Immigration: If they are working, they should be on track to citizenship. I find it abominable that we buy the stuff these people make and then fuck them coming and going.

Death Penalty: I do think some people deserve death for their crimes. However, inevitably, innocent people will be executed. I also find state sanctioned killing uncomfortable and perverse. Therefore I find the death penalty unsupportable.

Sex Education: The more the better.

Censorship: I'm not clear on what's being referred to. Will have to read thread...

Energy policies: We shoulda listened to Jimmy Carter.

[Aesaar]

When when victims start carrying pistols, they'll resort to carrying automatic weapons. What then? Everyone has to carry a Kalashnikov when they go down to the shops at night?

To be fair, it's a lot harder to conceal an assault rifle than it is to conceal a handgun or a knife. If assault rifles are restricted to ranges (a good idea, Cyberbob), then the police knows to arrest anyone carrying an AK-47 on the street. For those who, say, are going to or are coming back from a range, they can carry it in a bag.

Also, at the distances at which these shootings occur, an assault rifle won't give you much of an advantage. In fact, for something like a hold up, it would be better to have a pistol than an assault rifle.

[Moe]

Gun Ownership:
Assuming that we're talking about the US, I'm for it. It would have been a good idea to outlaw it from the beginning, but that ship has sailed and realistically any ban on guns isn't going to make a huge impact because there are so many of them in civilian hands already. It's also a bit like prohibitions, Americans like their guns, and trying to take them away is going to cause all kinds of problems.

Gun Control:
Yes. Owning guns because you like to shoot them, fine. If you feel like you need them to protect your home, also fine. If you think that you need to stockpile grenade launchers in case you have to overthrow the government, well, you need to get back to the real world. Also, you probably shouldn't be allowed to own a knife, much less a gun, but sadly we don't live in an ideal world.

Have shooting ranges where you can rent automatic weapons and shoot them on that range, similar to what you can do in Vegas.

Oh, and force people who own guns into well-regulated militias.* We wouldn't want anyone to overlook any part of the second amendment now would we? Freedom and all that jazz.

*Those would include a lot of gun safety classes, including but not limited to How To Not Kill Your Pets By Accident 101, How To Not Let Your Kid Find Your Gun And Shoot Himself 101, and Why Letting A Loaded Gun Sitting Around In A Cupboard Is A Really Bad Idea 101. Make it like a driver's license that you have to requalify for every two years or so. A test on basic firearm operation and safety that you have to pass to renew your gun license. Free ammo for all shooting during the test as an incentive!

Abortion:
Haven' really made up my mind yet, except to say that I don't see a problem with early term abortions. We're talking about a cluster of cells here with no brains, no capacity to feel pain, so the mother's body comes first. I'm on the fence when it's actually turned into a fully-fledged fetus.

Gay Marriage:
Well, yes. We're not in the dark ages anymore, and I can't wait for the day when homophobic gay-bashing is thrown into the same category as racism. It's between consenting adults who love each other, let them get married for crying out loud. Why is this even an issue? Whether Joe and Pete get married or not has zero impact on your life, so let them be.

Universal Health Care:
The only way a society is going to work is if the strong take care of the weak, and that includes the financially strong. Your constitution includes the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, and two of those three are kind of hard to attain when your body is six kinds of fucked up but you can't afford a doctor. It's a sad statement about our society when people die needlessly. Having said that, all of this costs massive amounts of money, and the entire health care system is in need of a massive overhaul if you want to accomodate everybody.

Current War:
Which one? I'm rooting for North Korea as the next hot spot. That whole middle east region is so 1999.

Illegal Imigration:
Well it sucks, but so does the immigration system. Ideally you want to exclude people who cross the border, leech off of your healthcare and education and pension systems without ever contributing, while letting those in who are willing to work and to contribute to your society. I have no idea how to achieve that in a practical way, but legalizing those immigrants who have been cleaning your office for ten years now might be a step in the right direction.

Sex Education:
Yes please, with all the bells and whistles. Our society revolves around sex, so you better prepare your kids for it. Teach them about sex early, teach them about sex multiple times. Teach them safe sex. Teach them everything, including the option of abstinence. Hell, teach them the entire Kama Sutra - it'll make the next generation of women a lot less disappointed.


Censorship:
I don't like it. Realistically though freedom of speech has limits, just as your right to punch the air ends where my face starts. I'm against hate speech, although I'm not sure if it should be regulated by a law.
Minors need to be protected, and so there should be some form of parental advisory and age rating system. Kids are different though, and ultimately the parents know their kids best, so they should have the final say in that matter.

Energy policies: Sink money into making nukes as safe as possible, run them while investing into fusion research. Use renewable energy sources where feasible. Create cash incentives for car manufacturers to design cleaner cars to aid in the transition away from oil. Oh and shut down Ford, or at least teach them how to make non-crappy cars.

[Armadaeus]

Gun Ownership:For it. People should be allowed to carry a firearm if they should wish if it makes them feel safer. However, they should only be used for self defense or sporting purposes only.

Gun Control:If you're going to allow people to tot firearms around for self defense/sporting purposes, then you really have to draw the line somewhere. A handgun is perfectly reasonable,, maybe even a shotgun is fine, but an assault rifle or sniper rifle? Righttttt....For it.

Abortion:At the end of the day it's the woman's choice, frankly. You really don't even qualify to be anything other than a vegetable before the come out into the big wide world, so how can it be murder? Hell, what if someone raped the poor woman or her life is in danger? How can that be murder?

Gay Marriage:For it. So what if they have a different sexual preference to us? They're the exact same people as us, and have the same rights as we do.

Universal Health Care:For it. Imagine this; you're a poor person, some dude mugs you and takes what little money you have and then stabs you with a broken bottle/knife. You stumble into the hospital, get patched up well and then find out that operation you had is going to cost you $300. Oh, shit. Like I said with the gay marriage thing, they're the exact same people as us and pretty much have the same rights except that they don't have the money we do.

Current War:If you mean Iraq, then I'm against it in every single way. Get our troops out of there; there are no WMDs or any other type of weapon in there that can blow a whole country to the shithouse, so why are we there in the first place?

Illegal Imigration:Hey person, welcome to Australia, now get the fuck out. Basically the way we act towards these guys. I'm against sending them back to their own country straight away; maybe give the Detention Centers some kind of education system, so they can learn English, pass a test and actually make a living as an honest citizen?

Death Penalty:For it. You take the life of a living being then unless it's for a very very good reason, you're pretty much a soulless bastard who really doesn't deserve to exist anymore.

Sex Education:For it. If it reduces the amount of deaths from STDs, why not?

Censorship:I'm kinda on the fence with this one. Freedom of speech has it's limits, you know.

[Vaarok]

What's the difference between a deer rifle and a sniper rifle?

[Dooks Dizzo]

What's the difference between a deer rifle and a sniper rifle?

None. Something that a lot of people don't seem to be aware of.

[Aesaar]

When some people say sniper rifle, I think they mean anti-material rifles (like the M82). There's not a huge difference, but I don't think it's necessary to use a .50 BMG round to kill deer.

[Mokino]

But serious, weapons for fighting the gov? So you think the 10% armed(mostly small arms) could fight back a regime? When the army supports them? Come on.

It's much more of a tradition thing than having much practical use.

[Moe]

BUT HITLER TOOK ZE GUNS LOL

Yeah, it doesn't really make a lot of practical sense. Makes for a great fantasy though.

[Mr.Pickles]

The only way a society is going to work is if the strong take care of the weak, and that includes the financially strong. Your constitution includes the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, and two of those three are kind of hard to attain when your body is six kinds of fucked up but you can't afford a doctor. It's a sad statement about our society when people die needlessly. Having said that, all of this costs massive amounts of money, and the entire health care system is in need of a massive overhaul if you want to accomodate everybody.

Let's get down to it: health care is NOT a right. Read my previous statement on this. If you want the strong to take care of the weak, form a private company. But you aren't going to take money at the point of a gun.

There are free market alternatives. Just read some Austrian economics. The problem is, the gov't is far too heavily involved in economic matters. When political power merges with economic power, the result isn't too pretty, which is basically the state of the US's current health care mess.

Alternative energy: This issue is pretty simple. The gov't needs to get the hell out of the economic sector. I am talking about lowering taxes across the board, end all subsidies, cut down on regulation, and allow the free market to handle it. If there is money to be made off alternative energy, the market will handle it.

[BmB]

Why should I be at a disadvantage when confronted by a burly man who could easily crack my neck with his bare hands?

No, so instead you want to be at a disadvantage to the guy with a faster trigger finger and superior aim. What brilliant logic there. I also don't know what childhood nightmare you got that big bad villiany man from.

Also, the reason I care Ferocius, is that mayhaps I want to go to your wonderful country one day, but be put off by the ridicule of your system. The US is also fairly influential. I would really hate to see americanized politics back home. But fact is I already do. And I hate it.

Also, do you seriously believe that the US government would make a totalitarian regime in a manner that could be fought back with guns? Hah. Haven't you been following your own politics lately?

Also I'm fairly certain you can't get an accident from modern reactors even if you really want one and try your hardest to get it. The waste is of far bigger concern.

health care is NOT a right.

Neither is roof over your head. You still try your best to help homeless people.
Unless you don't in which case I just despise your silly ways even more.

[Dooks Dizzo]

Yeah, it doesn't really make a lot of practical sense. Makes for a great fantasy though.

Yes and no.

Being ex military I am pretty firmly of the belief that armed rabble versus trained military forces comes down to the ace versus the fire log.

That being said, 10 million armed people is a lot of fire logs.

For just a second let me pretend that I am a military commander who has decided to declare martial law in the US and suspend the constitution.

Regardless of how effective individuals armed with civilian grade weapons are or are not, I must at least keep them in mind.

I am thinking about taking away a lot of people's rights. I need to supress the dissadents and keep order and my military forces do not exceed a couple of hundred thousand, as well armed, trained and equiped at they are. There is a lot of real estate in the US, lots of cities and lots of people, I cannot be everywhere at once.

All of my soldiers tasked with keeping my new version of peace will have to keep in mind that anyone could be packing a weapon.

Worse, soldiers who lose a buddy do to some armed citizen are likely to retaliate with a lot of force, catching both innocent and guilty in the return fire. Probably making more dissadents.

My troops would be on a ragged edge all the time. Worried that of every thousand people, at least 10 of them are armed. Of those ten, probably 3 of them have former military training or professional civilian training.

It's just not a winning proposition for me.

It would take years to disarm the vast majority and would probably be impossible to account for all 43 milion guns in the country.

If I had any sense as a military commander, I wouldn't embroil myself in that kind of pain in the ass.

I also don't know what childhood nightmare you got that big bad villiany man from.

I invite you to spend some time in the neighborhood I grew up in.

I once had 3 guys decide that they took a dislike to me. One of whom was huge, could easily have played college ball as a line man. They managed to beat me unconcious and continued to kick the shit out of me until some lucky help arrived and chased them off.

With a gun.

Not to say that they would have actually beaten me to death, but who knows.

Another dramatic little story:
A group of skin heads felt that me having black freinds was an invite for them to come over and start mud stomping people. They brought all manner of melee device and about 8 guys.

I brought out an ancient 20 guage shot gun and convinced them to leave peaceably.

[darkelf]

Freedom of speech has it's limits, you know.

Not if you want to actually call it freedom of speech.

[Mokino]

It would essentially be similar to what's happening in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[BmB]

Dooks, the primary reason we regard it as fantasy is because we live in countries that do just fine without guns. While you may not be able to imagine living without your gun in hand, we have experienced that.
And guess what? Our government hasn't tried to supress us yet.

Also, darkelf, you can't threaten people with death for example. But you can express your opinion that you think they don't deserve to live.

[Mr.Pickles]

Neither is roof over your head. You still try your best to help homeless people.
Unless you don't in which case I just despise your silly ways even more.

Correct, the roof over my head is not a right. But the freedom to pursue what is necessary to have a roof over my head is a right.

Charity:
Depends. It depends on what the cause is and how financially stable I am. But you still don't force others to help homeless people if they choose not to.

[BmB]

That is unfortunately not how things work, nobody of notice would help them if the government wouldn't do it for them.

Generally people who are homeless are also homeless because they are incapable of helping themselves for whatever reason. You don't just leave the handicapped or elderly to rot either do you?

Seriously think of how you respond because your next words will decide the morality of your argument and perhaps render it useless.

[Mr.Pickles]

That is unfortunately not how things work, nobody of notice would help them if the government wouldn't do it for them.

Even if that was the case, (and I don't think it is) that still does not give the gov't the right to violate the rights of its own citizens. I have no pity for some homeless if they wasted their lives away with drugs/alcohol and so on.

Generally people who are homeless are also homeless because they are incapable of helping themselves for whatever reason. You don't just leave the handicapped or elderly to rot either do you?

Sometimes, sometimes not. You have every right to help all the homeless/sick/elderly you want, just don't force that upon others. I might even make a donation to the homeless/sick/elderly every now and then. I have no problem with private individuals making donations, politically speaking. The problem is when the gov't forces an unchosen obligation on its own citizens.

[BmB]

That's not how it works either. It's a democracy. The people forces an obligation to force an obligation on the people on the government. It allows for much better distribution of resources and less assholes fucking things up for the disadvantaged.

[Mr.Pickles]

That's not how it works either. It's a democracy. The people forces an obligation to force an obligation on the people on the government. It allows for much better distribution of resources and less assholes fucking things up for the disadvantaged.

Some news for you: The US is NOT a democracy. The US is a constitutional republic in which majority rule only in political matters, and then only without violating individual rights. Democracy (in the traditional sense of the word) is mob rule in which the individual could be overriden by the collective.

[Robert Frazer]

That is unfortunately not how things work, nobody of notice would help them if the government wouldn't do it for them.

This is utter bunk.

One of the great crimes of socialism is its throttling of philanthropy and the consequent atrophy of social responsibility. Prior to the war, charitable and voluntary organisations did great and extensive work to support the unfortunate and less well-off. With the advent of the welfare state, though, came a corrosion of personal dignity and self-reliance - the 'dependency culture' - and also diminished our sense of community. Deprivation's no longer our problem, we can fob it off on the government. Someone else can deal with it, I don't have to do anything! You just showed yourself to operate on the same principle in that post I've quoted.

Another classic historic example of this in action is the 1834 New Poor Law. Prior to that, the less well-off were supported by local, sensitive community-oriented extra-governmental parish committees funded by voluntary contributions. With the passing of the law, clod-hopping state intervention came tromping in and threw up the blighted workhouses - yes, those of Oliver Twist infamy - whose brutal conditions are well known, aggravated social stigma against the poor by tainting those who had been in them by association, and ended up being far more expensive than previous measures to actually worsening conditions. But the government knows best, eh?

[Roeben]

Before i begin, I am Dutch. Please understand my position. ^_^


Gun Ownership: Should be illegal. I know its against your bill of rights or whatever, but still. Who needs an Assault rifle to hunt deer anyway? I say Gun ownership is illegal, but allows you to get a certain hunters permit or something. I'm not very clear on this, sorry; Owning guns is illegal here anyway.

Gun Control: Aye. away with em.

Abortion: Being dutch, you'll know my awnser. And honestly? Murder? Please... In early stages, its not much more then a animal, it still has to gain a conciousness. In short, I'm all for abortion, but there should be a certain deadline after which you cannot do abortion. This is by the way, the current Dutch situation.

Gay Marriage: LOL. Everyone deserves Marriage. And a church wont do it, do it at a place you can.

Universal Health Care: Everyone deserves as much help as the next. Paying extra for private service? Sure.

Current War: Holland has people in Afghanistan. And i think its a good thing we are there with the rest. But I think its about time we leave.

Illegal Imigration: Lots of people immigrate to the Netherlands, and many stay. As long as they learn the language, I don't care.

Death Penalty: Against! We don't do DP in Holland, I hope we never will. This, people, IS murder, opposed to Abortion.

Sex Education: LOL. Last year, we all had to make sexual education projects for biology. Was a lot of fun.

Censorship: Americans are such hypocrits! You see like, dead people on the TV all the time, but when something sexual comes along they start censoring it. The opposite is true here. For the rest, Censorship should not exist in daily life.

[BmB]

I was unaware of that, Robert. I guess I've just been tainted by all those experiments with leaving little girls in the street and over an hour passing before anybody even looked.

But we also gotta consider the psychology of going back.

You also gotta consider conditions have never been like that here. We went directly from monarchy to socialistic democracy. (Well, technically still monarchy, but one in which the monarch is powerless)

We have a history of the government approach working. I also don't see what's bad about that in particular. Initially your words come acrosss translated roughly into:
OMG socialistic tendencies! Kill!
You still have to pay your taxes and work in the public sector.

[Dooks Dizzo]

While you may not be able to imagine living without your gun in hand, we have experienced that.

That's crap. I haven't carried my gun on me since I moved away from the neighborhoods where I felt it was necessary. My gun is safely put away.

As for being paranoid, I'll cop to that. I know for a fact that I have a better chance of being struck by lightning than attacked by say...a serial killer.

However after reading about guys like that 'Bind Torture Kill' murderer I am unwilling to disarm myself. The man broke into peoples houses, tied them up and tortured them to death. Men, women, children. He was wiping out whole families.

Intellectually I am aware that there is almost no likelyhood of something similiar happening to my family, but that's not the same as impossible either.

In Seattle a couple of years ago we had a serial rapist running around. He'd break in, tie up the men and rape the women in front of them. This was happening not far from where I lived. Once they caught him guess what happened? Copy cat.

Having a weapon on hand is a comfort to me.

BM, you seem to have the 'bad things only happen to other people' mentality and it is almost always people who think like that who end up getting fucked up by a sicko or a criminal.

Remember that nut job that killed all those kids on the east coast at college? Do you remember what they did when he started shooting? Layed down and played dead, letting him execute them. Apperantly not all Americans are paranoid enough.

And just for the record, if anyone is involved in some sort of shooting here is my military advice: run. Run your ass off. Moving targets are harder to hit.

If you can't run, fight. Fight for your life because you probably are. If it any point during fighting you get an opportunity to run, do so.

[Kronoch]

Gun Ownership: I'm all against it. In my opinion civilians should never ever own any weapons at all. They're dangerous, and owning a gun tempts people to use it.

Gun Control: Should be strictly enforced. No civilian should have a gun. (I'm fine with private security btw)

Abortion: All for it, a woman should be able to decide what to do with her body. As long as there are strict rules about the circumstances.

Gay Marriage: In favour, as long as two adults love one another I don't see why they shouldn't be able to marry.

Universal Health Care: In favour. As long as it doesn't exclude private healthcare. The strong should support the weak.

Current War: I don't really have an opinion on in. But you should finish what you started. leaving now would be devestating to Iraq

Illegal Imigration: It's not possible to stop it, and strict policies don't really work. I don't have a solution, but I know that strict immigration policies are futile.

Death Penalty: I'm against it. It's completely pointless. It doesn't deter criminals, it doesn't really have a good justification and it's way too

Sex Education: In favour. It's very important that children know about safe sex and sexual diseases. They shouldn't only know, but they should really understand. Little knowledge is bad, but complete ignorance is worse.

Censorship: They're shouldn't be any censorship (I'm thinking about people speaking their minds). With it, discussion isn't possible in any meaningfull way. And about television, adult programs should be broadcast on adult times, after 10.30 in the evening. If your children are watching, then you should pay better attention to your children.

[Aesaar]

The problem is when the gov't forces an unchosen obligation on its own citizens.

EVERY government in history did this. As an example: Taxes mean anything to you? Laws? If the government doesn't do it, it's not a government.

I'm all for providing some monetary benefits or tax exemptions for those who work and still have trouble getting by. I'm against paying those who don't work, however. My view is: Help society, and we'll help you.

I have no faith in the free market's ability to provide help for those who need it. History shows that in a completely free market, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

I'd describe myself as a left-winger on economical matters, and a right-winger on most social matters. I don't like the idea of what the USSR was supposed to be, but can see the benefits of what it became. A much less extreme version of the USSR feels like an attractive government to me (I'd give far more individual freedoms, and a slightly more capitalist economy).

[Kronoch]

@ Dooks Dizzo

Keep in mind that media only select the stories they think will interest the public, and then blow it far out of proportion. As far as representing the real crime figure in a country, the media is about the worst you can get.

[BmB]

See, Dooks. Another thing. Those shit things are apparantly a problem of American culture. They never happen elsewhere. Sure, there have been cases of a few deranged psychos running around killing people. And a few stabbings here and there.
But fact is that the crime to population ratio is higher in USA.

When was the last time there was a school shooting or serial rapists breaking into peoples houses or murderers of saw-like proportions in Denmark?
Oh right, never.
Bad things might happen to me, sure. But I should quite frankly be more worried about being run over than being distrustful of my society.

Having guns create more problems than they solve. Fact.

[Mr.Pickles]

EVERY government in history did this. As an example: Taxes mean anything to you? Laws? If the government doesn't do it, it's not a government.

Please don't take what I am saying out of context. I am talking about matters that go beyond the protection of individual rights and dealing with fraud, which is really all the government should do.

I have no faith in the free market's ability to provide help for those who need it. History shows that in a completely free market, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

Bullshit. Ever heard of the industrial revolution, where everybody got richer exponentially? Compare the late 19th century with the late 17th century, for example. You are thinking of that which is caused by monetary inflation by a central bank (which is statist to begin with.)

I'd describe myself as a left-winger on economical matters, and a right-winger on social matters. I don't like the idea of what the USSR was supposed to be, but can see the benefits of what it became. A much less extreme version of the USSR feels like an attractive government to me (I'd give far more individual freedoms, and a slightly more capitalist economy).

The terms "right wing" and "left wing" are inadequate. What you are thinking of is an authoritarian state in which the gov't disregards rights. So basically you want a welfare-state variant in which the gov't can loot off the life-giving capitalist system and give to those who have not produced as much?

And what the hell is society other than a collection of individuals?

[BmB]

Mr. Pickles, you example is excellent. Rich got money, poor died of illness.

[Mr.Pickles]

Mr. Pickles, you example is excellent. Rich got money, poor died of illness.

Oh bullshit. Everyone got richer. Try comparing the condition of the average citizen in the late 19th century to that of the late 17th century. In the 17th century, children just simply died. In the 19th century, they had a chance at making it. Capitalism eventually ended child labor on its own because parents started to make more money and didn't have to send their children to work.

[Aesaar]

Bullshit. Ever heard of the industrial revolution, where everybody got richer exponentially? Compare the late 19th century with the late 17th century, for example. You are thinking of that which is caused by monetary inflation by a central bank (which is statist to begin with.)

If it wasn't for the government's intervention, there would still be workers who got paid 5 cents an hour, working 16 hour days in a very hazardous environment. Make no mistake: That is what the industrial revolution was for the average worker. Certainly provided the factory owner with shitloads of money though.

The terms "right wing" and "left wing" are inadequate. What you are thinking of is an authoritarian state in which the gov't disregards rights. So basically you want a welfare-state variant in which the gov't can loot off the life-giving capitalist system and give to those who have not produced?

You must have skipped the "less extreme" part of my post. I never said I liked the USSR as it was. The system, first off, needs to allow for a much, much higher amount of individual freedoms, like freedom of speech, religion and all that. It was also far too socialist to function for a really long time.

BmB23: You have to keep in mind that the US population is much higher than Denmark's. And, as the US is, outlawing gun ownership won't solve any problems. Criminals who have handguns will keep them, and those who want one will find a way. Citizens who already have some will hide them, and since the police can't perform random gun searches, it's unlikely anyone will know until those guns are used, in which case, the damage is done.

EDIT: Damn, I thought I'd be finished adding that before you posted again.

[BmB]

The reason they got more money was because of the introduction of minimum wages.

[ZeroTwo]

This is a fun survey and a fun thread to read.

Gun Ownership: There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that I can think of that a person should own a firearm. Not only are we relying on the people who buy these things to be responsible and intelligent about carrying around something that is both simple to operate and extremely fatal, but if we're going to move forward as a culture we have to stop revering objects that cause death and acting so selfishly about our personal safety.

Gun Control: Seeing as we are probably not going to be able to get rid of all the guns in the country (especially Canada, if you know anything about the monumental flop that is our national gun registration program) anything that works towards curtailing the proliferation of firearms and tracking the owners of existing firearms is alright in my book. The only people in this country who should have guns are saluting at 6 am or wearing red in parades.

Abortion: I have no issue whatsoever with Abortion. I am first and foremost concerned with the mother's health, well-being, and enjoyment of life. If a child is going to be a burden for a parent for whatever reason, then it should be removed from the picture at whatever stage of growth or development it is in. Killing something that has never seen the light of day, is arguably sentient, and may serve only as a burden to our already overtaxed social system is acceptable.

Gay Marriage: If they want to get married, let them. During the initial debate I had a few conversations about the idea of basically photocopying regular marriage laws and replacing all the appropriate words with words pertaining to two people of the same sex just so some politician somewhere could tell everyone they weren't being allowed to "get married" like everyone else, but were allowed to "{insert new word}" instead, while still remaining legally identical. In the end I guess that was too much hassle, I don't much care either way.

Universal Health Care: Canada has a "working" universal health care system. I like it as it is, I don't feel that extending our health care to match overwhelming socialist states like France or England would be appropriate. It is inadequately funded though and if a nation is going to take on the responsibility of a Universal Health Care plan then it had better have the dough to keep it running.

Current War: I have no opinion on the current war. I like wars, I think they are good for TV ratings and great for talk shows, radio shock-jocks, and for building bias. I would not have sent my nation to war in support of the Americans simply because I feel siding with the second least popular super-power on the planet might not be the best idea.

Illegal Immigration: Totally unacceptable. People attempting legal immigration into my country should be given every consideration possible and as many reviews as we can possibly afford to give them before sending them away. I love Canada, I would be very happy to have throngs of law-abiding, legal immigrants joining up and living the Canadian dream (it involves milk in bags!). I absolutely do not tolerate those who break the law to sneak in. I feel strongly that illegal immigrants should be immediately detained, banned from the country for a period of years concurrent with a major theft sentence, and then communication should be opened with their home nations to have them deported with all the swiftness that our justice system can allow for.

Death Penalty: A throwback to our more savage days, the Death Penalty is largely emotional and overly-costly. While I would love to see every child rapist and cop killer fried on day one, it's just not right and never will be. I do feel that prison reforms are something we as a nation need to work towards; we really have to get inmates out of their cells and out working a field somewhere or something. The prison system is a massive drain on our economy (worse so for America) and inmates should be forced to give back to society through labour instead of just sitting around eating better meals than a low-income family can afford.

Sex Education: Sex education is the job of the parents to inform their children the dos and don'ts of sexual health and safe sexual activity. However, seeing as most parents appear to be useless at informing their children about anything these days I don't have an issue with the state instituting a program to help educate and inform where parents are failing so badly. Slowing the spread of STDs, controlling the movement of AIDS, preventing any more foetal alcohol babies from being born, preventing Dick Grayson, Age 12 from engaging in sexual activity before it is legal... if sex education can be shown to do of any of that, I'm even more for it.

Censorship: Not much to say here. I am a child of the internet, all information should be free regardless of it's quality or origins.

Do any one of these topics matter more to you than all the others combined?: I would say illegal immigration bothers me more than anything else, but only mildly so.

[Mr.Pickles]

You must have skipped the "less extreme" part of my post. I never said I liked the USSR as it was. The system, first off, needs to allow for a much, much higher amount of individual freedoms, like freedom of speech, religion and all that. It was also far too socialist to function for a really long time.

The fundamentals are still crap. Altruist-collectivist-statist axis of things does not work for any significant period of time.

If it wasn't for the government's intervention, there would still be workers who got paid 5 cents an hour, working 16 hour days in a very hazardous environment. Make no mistake: That is what the industrial revolution was for the average worker. Certainly provided the factory owner with shitloads of money though.

That is an outright lie. You need to learn how wealth is created. Again, compare the average worker of the 19th century to that of the 17th century. The results will startle you. The industrial revolution was the first time in history where the real wages and life expectancy of workers rose significantly.

[Kronoch]

Capitalism eventually ended child labor on its own because parents started to make more money and didn't have to send their children to work.

Actually, it didn't. Child labour stopped because laws were made that prohibited it. First for the very young, then for the older children untill all children were forced to go to school instead of work.

And btw, it was the organisation of workers into labour unions that caused the raising of saleries. It also improved a bit because industrialists realised that healthy and better paid workers worked BETTER and longer than the unhealthy ones.

[BmB]

Wrong, it was the first time in history people had a square meter to live in and a closet to sleep in and could expect to die of a broken back or an illness acquired from the shit that was literally dumped in their house.
If everybody in a household worked as hard as they could muster you had enough money to get by... barely.

And by get by I mean wither and die.

[Moe]

There are free market alternatives. Just read some Austrian economics.

Take a look at healthcare in the US and compare it to a number of European nations, and you'll see that the free market tends to fuck over the poor.

Healthcare is not a right, I am aware of that. That's why I never claimed that it was. However, it should be a universal right.

And to those who claim that capitalism ended child labor, do you seriously think that every pair of sneakers that you can buy was put together by adults?

[TheWickedGerman]

Dooks, a gun, off course can safe your life in certain situations as yopu described. You also stated correct that its very unlikel<y to happen. But the chance that the guns causes death to you or someone else because you:

1. Didn´t lock your gun away and somone else gets it and shot someone with purpose or by accidednt
2. You misinterpretate a situation
3. Malfunction of the gun
4. You get disarmed by the attacker, now he has the gun
5. you start to shoot people for whatever reasons(going mad because your kids were killed, lost your job, your wife cheated you, the wrong team wons the superbowl....)

is much bigger than the chance that the gun saves you.

That´s all I have to say for this matter, it doesnt affect me at all, I think it has been discussed to death and we must admit that the US has a completly different gun culture than most of Europe. So discussion make less sense here.

[Mr.Pickles]

Wrong, it was the first time in history people had a square meter to live in and a closet to sleep in and could expect to die of a broken back or an illness acquired from the shit that was literally dumped in their house.
If everybody in a household worked as hard as they could muster you had enough money to get by... barely.

Please don't drop historical context. Look at the 19th century in comparison to earlier centuries, not that of the 20th and 21st centuries. Of course the conditions were terrible then, but still nothing compared to the horrific centuries before the 19th.

And btw, it was the organisation of workers into labour unions that caused the raising of saleries. It also improved a bit because industrialists realised that healthy and better paid workers worked BETTER and longer than the unhealthy ones.

Oh bullshit yet again. Learn how wealth is created, please. Anti-capitalists seem to think that the only way for employers to make money is to cheat out their laborers.

[BmB]

But that is irrelevant. The point is the world was fucking shite then and that we should not go back.

[Aesaar]

Compare current working conditions with 19th century working conditions. They're much better, aren't they? Account for the rise in regulation pertaining to employment (minimum wages, worker's unions, outlawing of child labor, etc.) and it's obvious that the improvement of working conditions coincide with the rise in those regulations. Regulations created by governments.

EDIT: Ninja'ed. Again.

I'll address your comment regarding crap fundamentals later. I hate having two discussions at the same time.

[TheWickedGerman]

And to those who claim that capitalism ended child labor, do you seriously think that every pair of sneakers that you can buy was put together by adults?

Textil industry in general is very good in giving childs a job. We transferred child labor only in poorer countries. Effective we have morechild labor now due to capitalism.

[Mr.Pickles]

And to those who claim that capitalism ended child labor, do you seriously think that every pair of sneakers that you can buy was put together by adults?

Again, context dropping. You think those children in sweatshops work there because they are forced to? No, they do it because the alternatives are even worse.

But that is irrelevant. The point is the world was fucking shite then and that we should not go back.

And when did I say we should? I am saying that the 19th century was a godsend compared to past centuries, and that we owe it to capitalism.

Please, stop the context-dropping.

Take a look at healthcare in the US and compare it to a number of European nations, and you'll see that the free market tends to fuck over the poor.

No, not if there is a genuinely free market inwhich the gov't sticks to political matters only. Not the mixed economy crap that is the US system today.

[Aesaar]

Again, context dropping. You think those children in sweatshops work there because they are forced to? No, they do it because the alternatives are even worse.

The lack of alternatives certainly isn't the result of the government meddling in the economy. It's more a result of companies wanting to make more money, and since they don't have to pay their workers much, they don't.

[Moe]

Again, context dropping. You think those children in sweatshops work there because they are forced to? No, they do it because the alternatives are even worse.

Dire economic need isn't being forced to work in a sweatshop? In that case I suppose that the guy taking people hostage isn't forcing them to stay either, it's just that the alternative, i.e. getting shot in the head, is even worse. What weird definition of being forced do you use? How are you not the one dropping context here?

Of course they work in a sweatshop because they're being forced to. Who the hell wants to voluntarily work in a sweatshop? They're not being forced at gunpoint, no. But not having money to buy food leads to hunger, which is a pretty strong incentive almost on par with someone pointing a gun at you.

[Mr.Pickles]

Those alternatives certainly aren't the result of the government meddling in the economy. It's more a result of companies wanting to make more money, and since they don't have to pay their workers much, they don't.

Those alternatives are because of lack of wealth in those parts of the world. Eventually, if allowed to, capitalism will bring more wealth there too. Look at Hong Kong.

Unfortunately, capitalism can't exist without a philosophical base, which is one of the reasons that the US is moving towards statism.

Moe, I have to go now, I will respond to your comments later.

[BmB]

And when did I say we should?

When you implied the free market was better than a somewhat controlled market.

[Aesaar]

The reason why everything is made overseas nowadays is because the laws imposed on corporations by Western governments make it more profitable for those corporations to have everything made in countries where there are no such laws. In essence, where the workers are easier to exploit because the government doesn't give a shit.