Balance a Race: Space Marines

[bman3k]

I think that SS balance thread is a bit too cluttered, posting balance suggestions for 9 races in one thread is a bit much. I'll start this because SM is the only race I feel that I know well enough to make arger balance suggestions for (aside from obvious imba stuff like Avatar and Dias).

So please critique the suggestions I list with something constructive (ie. not "thats stupid"), I'll try to keep the stuff within reason, but I have some bias for my favourite race . If I really like your suggestion, I'll edit my post for it.

I realize that I've only listed one thing as overpowered for SM, but in all honestly I can't find much that is overpowered for SM.

Buffs
-Increase the damage of TSM plasma to regular infantry, by 5 DPS (almost no reason to use it over HB as of now)

-Give ASM 50 additional hit points in T3 (just to help them scale a bit better)

-Increase Terminator flamer damage to same level of TSM flamers with both levels of target finders (weapon is never used due to vast inferiority to AC)

-Increase Terminator melee damage to same level of TSM and add knockback effect (too easy to tie up with cheap units, NW style knockback)

-Increase Terminator FotM accuracy to 50% with the stormbolter (same reason as NW, combined with melee knockback so they have a chance to get rid of cheap CC units)

-Increase both Terminators and Assault Terminator teleports to 2.5 seconds a side (5 seconds makes it the slowest teleport in the game, the range isn't even very good)

-Decrease Skull Probe cost to 40 requisition, but make sabotage require armory and let them take only 50% ranged damage

Nerfs
-Increase smite cooldown by 20 seconds (60 seconds way too short)

[ck10_9]

Hi
I agree with most of your suggestions....

Buffing hellfire DPS might be a bit much - it is quite spammable atm and it's disruption (it's main use) is uber. There are posts suggesting it should get a cost increase as it is!

Reducing WW refire by that much may also be a little too much perhaps 0.5 or 1 secs would be more reasonable

I would also like add an item or 2....
(from another recent thread) - Give FC a version of tainted auspex. This would help vs t1 infiltrated units.
If not that then a research for scouts to get 'eyes' like cults
I mean they are SCOUTS after all!!

I would also like to see a buff to the HB turret - currently it is nearly useless.

[Pseudonymn]

I don't think he was talking about the refire rate but, rather, the amount of time that it takes to deploy the weapon after having moved; hence, it's 5 second "set up" time.

Personally, I've never had a problem with this set up time. Setting it to stand ground stance ensures that it continues to fire from a fixed position and isn't wasting time setting up as it tries to run down enemy units at the outer edge of its max range. Still, 5 seconds always did feel a tad bit long.

I like all the suggestions made here, especially the RL HWs cost, which can really suck the life out of an early economy if they are being lost very quickly without returning a commensurate amount of damage before expiring.

I'd also like to see the Predator vehicle cap reduced to 4. Like the ASM, I don't feel that they perform well enough to justify a cost of 5 vCap points apiece.

[Old Painless]

You have 9 buffs and 1 nerf, think harder.

[edbop]

all your buffs come in in the latter tiers when really sm don't need it. the only weakness of sm is their t1.

i think these balance discussions are pretty pointless really because the majority of posters just want to buff the races they like and nerf the races they don't.

i would agree that either the dps of the hb against heavy med should be nerfed a bit or the dps of the plasma buffed a bit.

probably the hb nerf would be better because of their range.

[prejudice]

Some of these suggestions seem ok, like the plasma thing which i reckon would bring some variety to the game.

But I think you've missed some important things, e.g. the fact that hellfires aren't actually there purely to kill things; they have uber disruption to make up for it. And the most worrying thing about sm for me right now is their totally pathetic t1 detection capabilities. Fix that first, then we can talk.

[Flagg]

9 Buffs and 1 Nerf, no you're not being biased at all are you.

I don't agree with making Assault Marines 2 pop. Zerks, Whyches, Nobz and most other T2 CC units are 3 pop. And the Whirlwind is crazy good already now, so I don't think that needs improving.

[Armadaeus]

And Assault Marines are what Tier? Oh, I forgot, 1.5! Give them 2 pop in T2/T2.5 and best leave it at that.

[Rotlung]

I'm open to the plasma ideas, as well as lowering the cap taken by predators. Two predators means half your vehicle strength. Give me two Land Raiders anytime

[D-coy]

I think plasma should get good acc ontm instead of more damage to heavy_inf.

Cheers

[GrimDark]

Is that a troll attempt?

Knockback on teleporting Termies? My Obliterators would want one too then. And Flash Gits too. And half a dozen of other ranged specialist.
Increase FoTM for termies? Say, my Oblits want to talk to you again.
Oh, a TSM MSL average? Riiight.
ASM pop 2? Already hordes of ASM han devastate EVERYTHING with their chainswords and melta bombs, and you wanna increase their numbers by 1/3? EXCELLENT idea.

*sigh*
The only thing I can agree is termie flamer, and a small bump for plasma.

But even without that SM are able to kill everything on sight.

[zer0nix]

regarding terminators:
http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost...2&postcount=84
-no need to increase fotm or flamer damage if they get real powerfists.

also, i am 100% in favor of restoring oblit heavy flamers and giving them the same treatment as my terminators (with even less members than terminators, they should still get pwned by t1 melee specialists regardless, but it won't be ridiculous like now).


regarding smite, i'd like to restore its knockdown as well as restoring the ability to smite just about anything. go ahead and reduce the damage if you think it's too high; i primarily would desire using it for knockdown (or killing a fleeing vehicle).


regarding the auspex: how about allowing probes to be built from another building (as well as lps) instead? i just don't really care for the auspex idea to be honest :/

regarding 'sighted scouts': you know if you attach a skull probe when the scouts are stealthed, the probe becomes stealthed as well?

-i'd just reduce the cost of skull probes by a slight amount and require the armory to use sabotage.


regarding heavy bolters and plasma: to be honest, i see nothing wrong here. heavy bolters are an iconic space marine weapon; why should i favor plasma over these (i know, they're supposed to be good against armor; on tt, supposedly they pop light vehicles)? it seems somewhat arbitrary, but since the chaos marines get strong plasma, perhaps the space marines were meant to use h.bolters for more visual variety... or something. i'm talking out my ass here but i didn't even know about this 'problem' until i read about it here.

maybe something needs to be looked at regarding the ig though; why the hell do they get 5 plasma guns per squad, not counting the plasma pistols? ...i get that it adds to their 'massy' feel and the guns are on a fragile platform (when not lol-invulnerable), but still...

for the record, chaos guns could be more powerful because they are using a heretical design or are calling upon chaos energies.


the missile launcher change also doesn't really seem necessary; i'll take your word for it though.

...say, what does everyone think about giving missile launchers decent infantry damage (and then not touching their cost)? they're an effective weapon against marines on tabletop.

i'd add to that by giving each heavy bolter (and assault cannon) a small aoe affecting all units, allied and enemy (for realism; also, this makes them much better against infantry than slow-loading, single target missiles). this has the dual effect of both decreasing the attractiveness of merely focus-firing on everything and making plasma guns a logical step forward to mesh with the strong melee units the rines get in t2+


i'd like for the dread t-l lascannon to be given 90-100% accuracy, 80-90% while on the move, and for the dread asscannon to get slightly higher dps with the drawback of restoring some fotm penalty.


what does everyone think about restoring asm heavy weapons?
EDIT: whoops, they never had any.

what does everyone think about giving probes aoe, extending attack range (slight aura bonus, or perhaps limited to attached squad) or having some sort of rechargable 'machine spirit' or shield ability (justification: it's a flying skull on a mini grav platform; it seems much more likely that this small thing can avoid bullets far better than the land raider), or simply being able to build more of them?


to make scouts (and rine t0, t1) better, how about giving them scout sergeants? no pop bonus, but slightly improved health + a chainsword instead of a knife and pistols instead of a bolter.


finally, not a balance change but i'd like the chaplain's shout to be renamed 'tanglefoot grenades' or something to that effect; seriously, 'shout' just makes no sense.


EDIT: thanks for this topic. now i finally have a venue to vomit out all the ideas i have for improving this race

[bman3k]

You have 9 buffs and 1 nerf, think harder.

The whole point of this thread was to get suggestions from others as well, thanks for your input.

Is that a troll attempt?

Knockback on teleporting Termies? My Obliterators would want one too then. And Flash Gits too. And half a dozen of other ranged specialist.
Increase FoTM for termies? Say, my Oblits want to talk to you again.
Oh, a TSM MSL average? Riiight.
ASM pop 2? Already hordes of ASM han devastate EVERYTHING with their chainswords and melta bombs, and you wanna increase their numbers by 1/3? EXCELLENT idea.

*sigh*
The only thing I can agree is termie flamer, and a small bump for plasma.

But even without that SM are able to kill everything on sight.

I was thinking obliterators could have the knockback too, I'm saying they need it because they are the slowest f*cking units in the game, where as things like Flash Gits and Kasrkin have fairly good movement speed.

Can I see ASM obliterating everything please? Every other melee specialist beats them for cost.

TSM ML have average DPS, while they do excellent burst they also have setup time and if they miss it really, really sucks.

[ImmortalChaos]

Buffs

-Increase the damage of TSM plasma to heavy infantry (almost no reason to use it over HB as of now)

Totally uneeded. Just buff the plasma damage against regular infantry a tad- the fact that plasma has no setup time and 30 range is not to be underestimated.

-Reduce cost of TSM ML by 10 req (most expensive HW in game, while average performance)

Again, uneeded. Being able to buy missles on the fly is hugely adventgous to typical AV units- you should be taxed for it.

-Reduce the squad cap cost of ASM to 2 (not worth 3)

I'm torn with this one- I'd like to see them 2 pop, but in T1 it makes them too spammy. At the same time, changing their popcap depending on your tier is weird to me. Probably the best option though.

-Increase Terminator flamer damage to same level of TSM flamers with both levels of target finders (weapon is never used due to vast inferiority to AC)

This is fine- Termie flamer could use a buff.

-Increase Terminator melee damage to same level of TSM and add knockback effect (too easy to tie up with cheap units)

Sure, make them as good as a tactical- but a knockback effect? Are you kidding?

-Increase Terminator FotM accuracy to 50% with the stormbolter (same reason as NW, combined with melee knockback so they have a chance to get rid of cheap CC units)

I actually wouldn't mind this either- storm bolters are supposed to be good at FoTM and most of the termies damage is their asscans anyways. The other 6 guys do OK with storm bolters, but theres only so much you can do with 25 range.

-Increase both Terminators and Assault Terminator teleports to 2.5 seconds a side (5 seconds makes it the slowest teleport in the game, the range isn't even very good)

Mabey 3 seconds, and if you did it for oblits too. Even then I don't see why a buff is needed- the ability to jump terrain is not to be underestimated.

-Reduce Whirlwind setup time to 3 seconds (5 second set up on an expensive T4 unit seems a bit much for it to be used effectively)

Totally uneeded. The WW is fruiting rediculous already, if anything it needs nerfing.



Nerfs

-Increase smite cooldown by 20 seconds (60 seconds way too short)

Sounds fine.

[bman3k]

Thank you Immortal Chaos for providing your insight along with reasoning, I just checked the WW's DPS value and did *not* realize they were that high.

The knockback I'm talking about isn't like knocking them back 10 range or like a NL's, I mean more like a NW where they would then get like 2 seconds to shoot at the target (with %50 FotM).

I just think the teleporting for Termies could use some work because 5 seconds gives you so long to either focus fire or move away.

zer0nix I like your idea for skull probes, but I don't get what you mean with ASM heavy weapons, did they used to have flamers like raptors? I've played vanilla DoW unpatched and I really don't remember that.

[KillaTron1000]

Reduce cost of TSM ML by 10 req (most expensive HW in game, while average performance)

Well, here we go again.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthre...ssile+Launcher

Like it's repeated over and over again in the linked thread above(and most recently in Immortal Chao's reply) the SM missile launcher is fine and the extra cost sprouts from the Tactical Squad's adaptibility. In the end, dedicated AV should be > than non-dedicated AV.

[zer0nix]

@ bman
oh crap, that's right, asm didn't have heavy weapons in dow, sorry y'all

regarding their teleport, termies use their ranged weapons while teleporting (even though graphics show weapons aren't firing), meaning that if they are are engaged in melee, simply initiating a teleport causes them to switch back to ranged weapons for 5 seconds

giving termies knockback would be totally imba once combined with their flamers; i'm pretty sure both varieties of termie now have a charge bonus going into melee.

i repeat myself when i say there is NO REASON to increase termy flamer damage. simply give them a reason to engage into close combat and you will see the flamer shine.

regrding termie fotm, i'd really would like to give them something more reasonable (it's currently bugged at a lower value than it should be) but at the same time, i wouldn't want to make flamers TOO strong -at which point suddenly there would almost be no reason to get asscannons. perhaps giving them normal fotm would be reasonable.

termies with the flamer would be placed in melee stance, hence gaining a charge bonus, meaning they will move much faster and ought to be able to keep up with the enemy.


how does everyone feel about giving sponson lascannons the same anti-infantry dps as heavy bolters, at the cost of making them much more expensive (for chaos marines also)?

[ImmortalChaos]

Just increase flamer damage 'till it can outmatch the AC at close range, and it'll be worth taking if you're getting charged a lot(high Fotm), but the AC will still be sweet for the lovely 70 dps at 40 range.

Using termies on the front lines? Grab flamers.
Sitting behind to deal damage? Asscans.

[Hawillis]

Instead reduce plasma cost to 10 power.
No damage buffs

Definately reduce ML cost.
- I want T2 dred lascannon. Then look at its values

Termie hv flamer buff definately

Termie cc damage is completely pointless as they never fight in melee. Small units tieing you up? lrn 2 focus fire them down. Big enemy tieing you up? run like hell/teleport

3 pop asm. leave her be. In T2 they are only 2 pop as the serg gives +1

Buff probes a little
Nerf smite damage - make it moar knockback.

Im toying with nerfing frags. Some cases eg v NW they are distinctly OP but say v nobz they are not enough!

[Pocktio]

-Reduce the squad cap cost of ASM to 2 (not worth 3)

No.

The spam is enough in tier 1.

[MonkeyMagic]

Buffing Skull probes is probably the best sugestion you've got down, as SM's current setup is severly lacking 40 req looks ok I'd also remove the requirement for a barracks/armoury so they can be built straight from lps as it opens up a couple of builds especially vs eldar.

I'd also give them a small aoe for sabotage to take care of those frigging de rjb.

With reduced cost probes SM's t2 av is buffed so ml probably wouldn't need a cost reduction.

Looks like you missed the main sm issue which is SM which T0-early T2. Its never going to be an easy fix as if SM can get into T2.5 in a good state they'll roll most mu due to its OP/IMBA.

I would;

Buff the FC, he currently sucks in alot of mu. He dosen't need much probably a good charge bonus so he could f/e keep up with that IG Command squad running round your base would work.

Move tac sarges to t1 + drop the bolt pistol damage by 1/2, rally + pop cap to t2 - they scale with the updates so its pretty much an extra couple of rines in the squad to put them on parity with csm.

Move asm to t1 (sarges to t1.5) nerf hp (scales back with upgrades), jumps to 1.5, build time increase and squad tax of 20 or so. - With the build time increase their not going to be anywhere as effective as raps for harris but give some much needed t1 cc & speed to sm t1.

Increase armoury costs tp 200/75 to compensate.

[Pocktio]

(sarges to t1.5)

Explain to me how having power swords and instant morale regen in tier 1.5 is fair?

[MonkeyMagic]

Because I already said move rally to t2 & rap champs with better ps have been about for ages?

[God_Of_Scots]

Sounds PERFECTLY fine. Other then the WW thing.

[zer0nix]

@hawllis:
giving termies real powerfists gives them a reason to engage in melee. buffing the heavy flamer's damage would be imba -though i might support a slight range increase if such proves necessary.

[ImmortalChaos]

Termies being good in melee would be imba.

Termie flamers not sucking a fat one would be fine.

[steel_tomatoes]

This will get just as cluttered as the other thread. We have a tendancy to carry on for pages about a single balance issue. You can't just list suggested buffs and nerfs without thorough reasoning why the change is needed and how your suggestion will fix the problem without breaking something else.

I hate how Fennec thought he could just get people to list the balance issues as if they were no-brainer bugs. Then again I think he only did that to string the community along a bit longer (there was no promise of a balance patch was there).

That said, your suggestions seem to be pulled from the other threads and hence its not a bad list. I think a lot of the problem with this forum is that rarely everyone agrees on a fix. And if they do, its on page 7/9 surrounded by personal arguments and topic changes.

How about once a solution is agreed upon, the OP edit his first post and put the solution at the very top like this:

The agreed upon fix is to give eldar units a move speed of 8, with the fleet of foot upgrade increased to 300/300 and giving the eldar an extra 5 movement for 10secs when activated, with a cooldown of 45secs

And then one of the mods could sticky+lock a single thread that contains a single post for every resolved issue, with a link to the discussion if people want more information.

This way if Relic ever did actually want to hear what the community had to say on balance, they wouldn't be totally overwhelmed by the sheer amount of reading

[4Servant]

sm dont need buff only the probe other races just need nerfs.

Just broken bullshit rapes sm

rangers
cultist speed boost thing w/e
warpspiders
bikes
sluga's
nobz
trucks
stormboy
Seer council
Stealth suits
Firewarriors
vespid
The entire IG race

Prolly forgot some
Nerf that and sm might be OP even.

[bman3k]

I really think SM heroes are fine... they don't need buffs, well you could always buff the FC by changing his model back to Thule (Gabriel was cooler, but I think Thule had the best looking model) .

I don't want Terminators to own in melee, that would be very overpowered (either die at range or die at melee?), I just want them to be like NW in that they have slight disruption in their melee attacks (which already have setup time and 2 second reload) and damage buffed to TSM level.

[Arcinatus]

tbh i dont really see a problem with this change. it would remove the fruiting ridiculousness of termis losing to guardsmen / cultists in melee (well...unpgraded cultists...you know what i mean) plus it would make the heavy flamer a more viable option. (as it stands now....i barely see anyone use them over the autocannon, the damage / range on those things is astounding)

[bman3k]

rangers
cultist speed boost thing w/e
warpspiders
bikes
sluga's
nobz
trucks
stormboy
Seer council
Stealth suits
Firewarriors
vespid
The entire IG race

I agree with warpspiders for sure, who thought it was a good idea to give eldar 3 squads of high DPS, mobile, durable, AV capable infantry?

I'm not too sure about the ork stuff, because I haven't played them enough, but trukks are 3 cap, surely they need some compensation.

Firewarriors are definitely a pain, good range damage and durability, I rarely see vespids used so I guess they can't be that imba.

I believe the main problem with IG is GL, they cause irreversible damage to an opponents eco, combined with IG's awesome eco it's just an uphill fight.

[edbop]

you say firewarriors have good range..? which game are you playing. plus they are only really durable once they get all the upgrades.

edit i'm going for some reason i read fds rather fws.

[Flagg]

Nobz are meant to beat up SM and just about anything else they come across.

SM make up for a lot of "imbas" by being able to adapt to the situation at hand, plus I personally think they have some of the best heroes in the game.

I still find Grey Knights a royal pain to deal with.

[SpArTy]

I like your changes and agree strongly with the T3 buffs (Termies can be great but the sheer amount of investment they take is ridiculous).

Personally though I would scrap that stupidly expensive skull probe research which requires an armoury and just give them infiltration again (and would be happy to pay a small power cost). SM detection is dire. Skull probes always get targeted automaticly.

[bman3k]

Something just came to me! Why not let ASM benefit from furious charge as well? Seraphims get a charge and they aren't even a melee unit! Then scrap what I said about reducing squad cap cost and improving their durability .

[D-coy]

Give skull probes veh_low armour. They'll become more durable and won't be at the top of target lists of Tier 1 units.

Cheers

[alisbin]

i'd be more in favor of buffing HPs and special weapon damage for tacs a bit.
currently, tacs have a max HP of 488 which requires t2, 150/80 (2 researchs) while CSM (which are at least partially equivalent) get max of 500 at t2 for 100/75 (1 research), granted this depends on having the champ, but he has 869 of heavy high at this point, only costs 65/10 and gives berserk fury, which frankly rally can't compete with IMHO.
as for buffing damage, i'm not talking a big buff and i'm NOT including MLs in said buff i think their pretty much fine (maybe a little buff but no real deal), but, again i'll compare them to CSM. CSM plasmas do between +5-100% more damage depending on armor type (with no upgrades) then SM plasmas (at full upgrades). HBs are WAY worse, a practical travesty, i'm gonna ignore the early availability of HBs for CSM, cause unupgraded tac HBs do more damage then unupgraded CSM HBs (which seems fine since CSM get them earlier). however, the fact that increasing HB damage (and number of hws) costs CSM 75/100 with 1 research and SM is 225/155 spread over 3 researchs (90 seconds total) seems very unbalanced to me. oh, just noticed that CSM HB has a 1.4 sec setup vs SM HB 2 sec which also seems unbalanced.

i also agree with the OP that termies need to have at least vaguely decent melee damage, they've got power fists for crying out loud they shouldn't be totally outclassed by basic melee infantry.

the idea of giving skull probes veh low sounds good to me (maybe make it an upgrade tied to bionics 2).

my fix for SM would be to reduce tac HB setup to 1.5, increase their base hps to somewhere around 400-410 (which would give them ), reduce their HP research times by 5-10 seconds and cost by a total of 25/5 (maybe reduce first to 40/25/25 and second to 85/50/35). i'd also increase SM plas damage against heavy inf and light veh by a small amount and SM HB damage vs infantry low by about 20%. termies should get melee damage equivilant to HALF the SM sergeant's powerfist damage (since their attack is half his speed it'll make their melee decent without being great, so it'll take a dedicated melee attack to take them down). i'm also ok with a slight upgrade for stormbolter FotM, but 50% maybe 40-45%, also some sort of boost to the termie flamer seems in order, but i'm not totally sure what would seem right and remain balanced with increased melee strength (longer range maybe? or maybe switch it to a meltagun?)
for chaos players, you want to give oblits a lesser equivilant for their melee thats fine, but not quite as much seeing that oblits do great damage to EVERYTHING, whereas termies are purely anti-inf.

increasing smite recharge seems fine to me.

this may be alot more controversial, but i really think that tacs should get HBs at 1.5 (armory) rather then 2 but with damage more equivalent to CSM HBs and switching around the researchs so at tier 3 they do MORE damage then maxed CSM bolters (maybe less damage overall but give them a research that does some area damage to squads). note that i think this should apply to both tacs AND CSM. honestly i'd like to see CSM and tacs alot more alike, just with tacs getting a bit more ranged damage and CSM getting their damned infil.

i don't agree with the OP that plasma needs more damage vs regular inf, thats what the HB is for, frankly i think that rather then buffing SM plas damage, CSM and IG plas weapons should be nerfed vs lighter armors.

bring on the flames, i've got my fireproof suit on

[psykopatsak]

id say lower viechle cap to 4 ffor all races, to get more tanks on the field =)

[bloodbreaker]

I think that SS balance thread is a bit too cluttered, posting balance suggestions for 9 races in one thread is a bit much. I'll start this because SM is the only race I feel that I know well enough to make arger balance suggestions for (aside from obvious imba stuff like Avatar and Dias).

So please critique the suggestions I list with something constructive (ie. not "thats stupid"), I'll try to keep the stuff within reason, but I have some bias for my favourite race . If I really like your suggestion, I'll edit my post for it.

I realize that I've only listed one thing as overpowered for SM, but in all honestly I can't find much that is overpowered for SM.

Buffs
-Increase the damage of TSM plasma to regular infantry, by 5 DPS (almost no reason to use it over HB as of now)

-Give ASM 50 additional hit points in T3 (just to help them scale a bit better)

I'm going to have to disagree here, I always wind up spamming these ASM, I don't know if I just have a fetish for seing infantry shredded with that sexy chainsaw sword, or it's that they are great out of the box with zero upgrades (melta bomb and sarge exluded), customizations, ect.
I also disagree with the original nerf of the ASM's Moral. I feel that was a bad dicision on relic's part.
I personally feel a good end to my ASM spamming days (and boy do I spam them alot!) would be to leave them as is with standard TSM moral, but jack up the cost of thier energy. Those jump packs should really put a strain on my Plasma generator's!
And I hope they get some upgrades and customizations in DoW2, Y'know, like maybe 4 ASM's can trade in thier chainsaw swords for power fist's, or they don't get an uzi right off the bat. Maybe I could choose if my ASM's get bolt pistol, shield, plasma pistol, or other upgrades inspired from the modeling aspect of the table top game.

-Increase Terminator flamer damage to same level of TSM flamers with both levels of target finders (weapon is never used due to vast inferiority to AC)

-Increase Terminator melee damage to same level of TSM and add knockback effect (too easy to tie up with cheap units, NW style knockback)

-Increase Terminator FotM accuracy to 50% with the stormbolter (same reason as NW, combined with melee knockback so they have a chance to get rid of cheap CC units)

I agree with all of this the Heavy flamer's need some love as well as the power fist's, and I don't know what the current FotM is for the Heavy flamer, but it should be at 90% at least, I mean... how do you miss with somthing like that?


Aside from spamming ASM's I have a problem spamming Dread's, I mean they are just so freaking awesome!!! I'm getting aroused just thinking about thier badly assness!

I feel they should be 3 capped at T4, and 2 below that...
They kick so much butt that I just produce them on over watch with in the orbital relay and of course the ASM in my Chapel Barracks, Jump my ASM's into the meat grinder, and use the drop pods as artillery shells to land Dread's into the bulk of war. It get's reduntant and exhausting but it never fails... sooner or later I'll grind my foe down, weather it takes me 4 hours or 8!
No tactics, I just keep dropping ASM's and Dread's from the sky!
That's why I can't play the Space Marines any more, I was forced to switch to the Imperial Guard in order to continue my service to the Emporer.

[bman3k]

@ bloobreaker I'm not talking about QS vs computers

[BlooDragon]

i play sm and is my favorite raise and i would make a suggestion

space marines arent an imba race, their unique problem is that they got the weakest t1. You get t2 and u can stay an edge agaisnt the other races.

To fix this the first thing i would comply is the damage of the normal bolters for tacs. A normal bolter squad with no upgrades cant kill any other squad of the same level in ranged but guardsmen and they arent fast enought to get them and engage on melee. The others have, either more range (tau), quicker (eldar, dark eldar) or can be more numerous in less amounts of time (orks).

Actually, the normal tacs without any upgrades and sarge are just fresh meat unless in great numbers. Probably u could say the same thing with csm tacs but those have hb sooner than sm.

I wouldnt comply about asm cause they can jump and have more hp that tacs and well used they can stand an edge against most units.

Also tacs dont hit a damm thing when moving, i still havent played with the patch that lows the penalty but as far as i know, when moving they dont hit anything with makes retreats useless.

Also, why does sm normal bolter, chaos normal bolter and sisters normal bolter have different damages, i know, they are distinct races but is the same weapon, the changes between these units should be the hp they have and the melee damage, and algo the speed that they can equip heavy weapons.

For example, chaos tacs have better melee than sm tacs but sm tacs should have something better on their own instead of morale, maybe more hp or maybe the only race with a little booster on the bolter, i dunno

Sorry if i dont put any rates, i dont know much of that
What do you think?

[Rotlung]

If I remember correctly, SM tacs do have more HP than Chaos tacs (same for ASMs having more HP than Raptors) and even more so with Bionics in T1. Not sure if this changes once Chaos gets Purge the Weak in T2.

[ImmortalChaos]

Tacs are better than CSMs in every category in T1- HP, damage, melee damage, even morale. PtW CSM have more HP than SM with the first bionics (IIRC), but with both bionics tacs are superior again.

On top of that, target finders buffs the normal boltguns; CSM have no such upgrade. The only reasons CSMs are completely 100% inferior to TSMs is that they can get HBs and PPs in T1, and their HB is ridiculously powerful when upgraded.

[bman3k]

CSM have 500hp with a PtW AC, target finders do buff bolters, but I generally find the BF + HB = sad (loyalist) marines.

[KotCR]

SM Tacs are superior in melee & ranged damage, in T1 before an Armoury. They also have more HP.

After an Armoury, the Aspiring Champion and his Power Sword grants CSM Tacs far more melee damage, though Flamers and Target Finders keep the SM Tacs having more DPS than CSM Tacs even after the Champ's Plasma Pistol.

In T2, with both Bionics and PtW, SM Tacs still have a slight bit more HP; But the Aspiring Champion has close enough to twice as much HP as the Sergeant, making the CSM Tac squad have more total HP - and that's before you consider the fact it can have more squad members. Also, bear in mind more HP on the Leader is better than more HP on the squaddies in some regards, as the leader is heavy_high. The squaddies are only heavy_med.

Furious Charge combined with Berzerk Fury makes CSM the undisputed kings of melee for a ranged specialist; The CSM have more melee damage than the SM Tacs then, and the Champ's Power Sword is still twice as powerful as that of the Sergeant. Also, Furious Charges gives them superior footspeed to SM Tacs (20 instead of 16), and a crazy melee charge speed boost, for a potential of 30 movement speed.

Ranged wise, the basic SM Bolter is more powerful than the basic CSM Bolter, but the CSM Heavy Bolters are more powerful than their SM equivalents after the Heavy Weapon Research (even with both Target Finder upgrades). Berzerk Fury tips the equation in favour of the CSMs. FWIW, CSM Heavy Bolters also have a faster set-up time than their SM equivalents.

Then come T3, CSM of course retain the lead with Infiltration and Super-Plaz. The SM Tacs get erm...well nothing; Though by then they should all be ready with Apothecary Healing (which is availiable in T2.5). It's not even close to being as good as Super-Plaz + Infiltration though.

What SM Tacs do have though is a bit more flexibility; As they can get Missile Launchers for anti-vehicle duty (something CSMs have to rely on their Champ Power Swords for, before they get proper anti-vehicle support from Horrors, Preds or Hell Talons, and the Power Swords aren't too efficient in this role once more than a single vehicle or two hits the field).

EDIT:
I should SM Tacs are more flexibile than CSM Tacs in the ranged department. To say they are more flexibile altogether is misleading, they aren't.

SM have ranged anti-infantry and ranged anti-vehicle options.
CSM on the other hand, have ranged anti-infantry, and melee capability options...meaning the units are equally flexible just in different ways.

It may not seem as great as having a ranged anti-vehicle option; But then when your CSM win a slugfest against the likes of a Stormboyz mass, Celestians, Hellions, and sometimes even a few ASM or only half-scaled Banshees or Kroot (something the SM Tacs won't be able to do), you realise that it is a pretty useful option to have. It also gives you a solid emergency option against other ranged specialists if you find yourself outgunned too, seems with 30 charge speed it's tough for other ranged specialist to effectively dance CSM.

Don't push your luck against fully upgraded Banshees, Raptors (they have Berzerk Fury too...), Wychs packing Drugs, Nobz, 'zerkers or Grey Knights though, and certainly not Flayed Ones (you'll break too fast), otherwise you're going to end up with alot of dead CSM. Best of still trying to rely on your Frags and Bolters in those cases.

[Sesshyru]

What about gernades / Power fists (which IGNORE(?) armor value) / and the moral boost?.. Do thoes factor in your sm vs csm equation or are they not really necessary?

[KotCR]

Power Fists don't ignore armour values. You've been playing too much TT.
And while the gap isn't as wide between the two Power Fists as it is between the two Power Swords, CSM Power Fists are still better, and the Champion is still far tougher than a Sergeant.

As for Morale, well, both Rally and Berzerk Fury help morale.
But Morale is a weak point for both units really once you've got hardcore anti-morale on the field, that's why in the Flamer thread I mentioned about using SM Flamers on CSM instead of Plaz or Heavy Bolters if you want to try to win them in a shootout.

[Old Painless]

Would ASM without the Armoury not give them a big boost in T1 ?

[ck10_9]

That would make SM a little too powerful in T1 I think
Reducing pop cap to 2 would be a little less of a buff I think

[KotCR]

@Old Painless

Yes...too big a boost. Unless you went and nerfed ASM when you did it, which would hurt ASM more overall at later stages in the game.