it depends on the situation chaos are very good at getting useful troops in quickly. this very useful especially in team games to full take advantage of situations.
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it depends on the situation chaos are very good at getting useful troops in quickly. this very useful especially in team games to full take advantage of situations.
Horrors are sort of fucked if they need to retreat, whereas FD just FoF away. That's why FD > horrors IMO.
yes i'd agree with that. but if you use them in the right situation you can take the base down so there is no need to retreat.
they are both good units don't get me wrong, i just prefer the teleport and range of the horror to the damage and unknockover ability of the fds.
Take the base down. What base? FD's rape buildings way better than horror, have a way superior armour type, have ultra heavy steel boots, can FOF. Fragons >> horrors. Although horrors are still pretty good of course. Its just Fragons are imba.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
huh? if u use any unit in the right situation and u can take the base down, there is no need to retreat (still this statement is not taking into the account base swaps).but if you use them in the right situation you can take the base down so there is no need to retreat.
horrors have crapiness level of around 8 out of 10. they lose only to tb w/o inflitration research(as soon as its researched, tb are much better) and hwt with laser(due to lack of mobility). on par with rines i would say, maybe tad better due to rines +rl cost/time of getting.
reasoning: horrors dont scale. horrors are scattered all over the place by disruption weapons. broken horrors die fast(some may say its not con, it has its uses, but makes retreating with horrors usually massacre, coz u will either lose most of the squad if not all or most units will be havy damaged). easy to tie up. once deepstriked, u usually need to go back a long way back to sac pit. they have their uses, u can get them quite fast, and they come in full strenght. 1 squad in the early t2 is sometimes good. but as soon as game goes into late tier 2/tier 3 they become redundant.
fd and ss are preasumably best av in game. fds have tons of hp, cause they scale. they are fast due to fof, cant be knocked down, are quite good for tie up and fresh squad price isnt high. and this is not taking into account brightlance bonuses. their only con is range.
still, i dont see much ways/reasons to buff horrors. rather nerfing some other races av should take place imo. only way i could imagine of buffing them would be some buff after t4 research similar to nobz (armour change) or increasing the max number in squad after t4 research to 6. just more viable option late game.
once again pred puts finger to keyboard without even reading the post he's replying to, well at least there are some constants in this world.
Well, the biggest reason I'd say Fire Dragons > Horrors for anti-tank is the knockback immunity.
Vehicles like Hellfires, Wartrakks and even Vypers can stall their deaths for a heckuva long time vs. the likes of Horrors due to being able to constantly disrupt them. Of course, this doesn't work against Fire Dragons who can just stand there and melt disruption-based vehicles just as easily as any other vehicle.
But, saying that, as has been mentioned. Fire Dragons are better than Horrors IMO, because Fire Dragons are imba. Horrors are perfectly good and decent and what they do; But aren't imba and so can't compete with Fire Dragons.
But as has already been said, it does depend on personal preferance a bit too. Horrors come out faster than Fire Dragons and can deepstrike, aswell as not losing any DPS when broken (their morale works differently from that of most other units), so they do have strengths of their own.
Last edited by KotCR; 3rd Oct 08 at 7:09 AM.
I'd really like Horrors to regenerate health. It just feels weird when any damage taken is permanent and only requisition and not time can bring them closest to full health.
Originally Posted by chelovek_veliki
-Assuming you have unlimited resources the first pred hits the ground after the upgrade for pop and then 45 secs later. This is too slow as it doesn't elicit a response from the opponent (think of the last time that first wartrukk destroyed half your squads or that first destroyer completely stopped that vehicle you were building in its tracks so you could switch to an AV vehicle). Who has unlimited resources right at the start of t2? A better way to think about it is like this. Hell talons cost 200 power and take 30 seconds to build. If you already have 66 power in t2, it takes something like 20 more seconds to get enough power to even start building that chaos pred, not to mention that the unit itself takes 15 seconds longer to build as well. And thats with 66 power, the less power you actually have, the more time you can add to that. So if you think predators are really hitting the ground fast, think again. And even if it does, its a unit that does the damage equivalent of one landspeeder. Thats it.
-Difference between a pred and a hell talon is, the hell talon can knock down maybe two lp2s, maybe some banners or gens as well before the opponent can field AV. Preds however generally hit the ground after AV has been fielded. One unit takes initiative and takes ground, the other merely maintains it at best since it hits late and does fairly low damage even in t2 for the cost and time.
-Difference between a pred and a dread is, the dread does so much damage to buildings and so much HP that even deployed late, may take down several buildings in the face of AV fire. Dreads again take initiative, while preds only maintain it. In addition, its common to see SM build a landspeeder or tempest before building a pred, and that unit helps with the elicting a response from the opponent.
Some people honestly believe chaos are just vehemently opposed to chaos in all forms. Its kinda sad to see actually.. Even very simple basic things like removing 60 second asp champs on cultists squads (when you have a chaos player who's doing what you want going mass units with an armory build and t2 upgrades) are met with such ridiculous force of opposition that its laughable. At least on dowsanctuary, with more dedicated players the response is more like
"yeah chaos t4 is underpowered, but what can you do (except maybe bring back dc 1.1 preds)" which is a more reasonable tone. I mean, even I realize there's not much you can do without making glaring changes, but it doesn't change the fact that it just doesn't bring much to the table, because as it stands (triv himself said this), the only reason a chaos player should go t4 really is just as a counter to another players t4, which is a little unfair in that in a close fight other races have that last resort for extra firepower and chaos basically hits t3 and is basically done.
Apple wants to give everyone "the business."
Well Subaku, if other races last two Tiers worked more like CSM last two Tiers, those races would be stronger.
It's better to get all your end-game awesome stuff in T3 than it is in T4.
The fact CSM actually have little reason to go to T4 most of the time shows just how powerful CSM T3 actually is.
I mean it's not like CSM T4 can't compete with SoB or SM or Tau T4 or whatever. It's just that the majority of the stuff you'll be using at that point is still all sub-T4 stuff because it's simply so powerful anyway.
Last edited by KotCR; 3rd Oct 08 at 9:34 AM.
If you 100% fast teched to predators, then yes, they will come out later. However, if you went with a medium strenght t1 with some eco in it, then you could easily have 300/330 by the time the machine pit is finished. And then the pred comes out 10 seconds later then the Hell Talon. There is one thing you also keep constantly forgetting; THEY HAVE 4000 HP. Don't compare them to landspeeders, they are completely different. Landspeeders are cheaper, more mobile, anti-infantry only, and don't have a hope of killing AV infantry due to their fragility. Predators are much more expensive, but can take out vehicles and buildings as well, have 4x as much hp, and can fight back against anti-vehicle infantry for a while because they won't be dead within 10 seconds of firing =/-Assuming you have unlimited resources the first pred hits the ground after the upgrade for pop and then 45 secs later. This is too slow as it doesn't elicit a response from the opponent (think of the last time that first wartrukk destroyed half your squads or that first destroyer completely stopped that vehicle you were building in its tracks so you could switch to an AV vehicle). Who has unlimited resources right at the start of t2? A better way to think about it is like this. Hell talons cost 200 power and take 30 seconds to build. If you already have 66 power in t2, it takes something like 20 more seconds to get enough power to even start building that chaos pred, not to mention that the unit itself takes 15 seconds longer to build as well. And thats with 66 power, the less power you actually have, the more time you can add to that. So if you think predators are really hitting the ground fast, think again. And even if it does, its a unit that does the damage equivalent of one landspeeder. Thats it.
Also remember the Predator has a vastly superior armour type to the Land Speeder. It's not uncommon for vehicle_med to literally take half as much (sometimes even less) damage from anti-vehicle weapons (or weapons in general) than vehicle_low.
It wouldn't be unfair to say a Predator is roughly 6x-8x as resilient as a Land Speeder overall.
"In addition, its common to see SM build a landspeeder or tempest before building a pred, and that unit helps with the elicting a response from the opponent."
Huh? Aren't SM preds a Tier 3 thing and not Tier 2?
I don't like your post(s). They are disjointed with poor arguments and writing skills. Looks like you post in the heat of the moment and can't contain yourself.
You accuse (almost incoherently) people at one point of being "Chaos haters". Try looking in the mirror for a "Chaos fanboy" maybe
Ok, lets explain this again. Please read the bold at least.
If you have unlimited resources you can get a pred out in 45 seconds. However much more likely, even at a moderate pace, and especially with an armory build, you won't even get close to getting a pred out in 1 min after building your machine pit. Preds simply do not both hit the ground fast enough or do enough damage to change your opponents course of play.
Now lets discuss the chaos pred. Its a 4000 HP vehicle med unit that does 70 dps to hmed inf, 57 dps to hhigh, and approx 50 dps to vehicles med. It is safe to say that the pred is primarily and Anti infantry unit, so I will discuss the pred from that angle.
Compare the chaos pred to these AI vehicles. The destroyer, the hell hound, and the landspeeder. The destroyer does 100 dps, the HH does usually in the area of 70 to 100 dps, and the landspeeder does an even 70 dps to hmed. I contend that all the destroyer, the HH, and the landspeeder outperform the chaos pred in every aspect of its role. In other words, if chaos were to trade its pred for any of these units as they are, people would be screaming imba quite (madly to tell the truth. if chaos were to get a fast attack AI unit, that'd be extremely extremely broken).
The reason why the chaos predator doesn't work is mostly a deployment issue. Its nearly impossible to get a chaos predator out before significant AV units hit the field, whilst with these other units, its fairly easy. Regardless of the chaos build you choose, either csms with bolters, mass raps, zerks, it just is impossible. The only exception to the rule is if you do a mass cultist build with nades, but since that build has been heavily nerfed in the upcoming patch, I won't discuss it.
The advantage of vehicles isn't necessarily their damage in most cases. A chaos pred, does slightly more damage than a long csm Heavy bolter. Its the fact that they require hard counters in taking them down. Think of the new unit, the Dark eldar jetbike and the problems people have with it. On paper it does the damage of roughly 2 csms, but the fact that in t1, AV does not exist is what causes people to scream imba. This principle applies to why the other races vehicle AI units work especially well and why the CSM predator doesn't, though the window of opportunity is slightly less in comparison to the DE jetbike.
Its true the destroyer has half the HP of the chaos predator, but without a hard counter, it could have 1/3 the HP or 1/4 the HP with very little difference in effectiveness.
But some units are t3 or are forced to fight in the presence of AV units. How do they work? They work by either having significant HP to where the AV is almost a soft counter of sorts, or by doing tremendous amounts of damage in that they are still able to be effective even if only briefly on the field. Take for extreme examples, the dreadnought or the Fireprism. Dreads very commonly hit the ground in the face of AV units from other races, but their high HP and High damage allows them to be effective even if their duration on the field if very brief.
The chaos pred has 4000 HP but its not a damage sponge nor a powerful unit. Thisis why I recommend to csm players to opt for the defiler and especially the Hell talon in nearly all t2 situations. They can both hit the ground before AV and have a greater chance of being effective, not to mention are more versatile units. If you moved the csm pred to t3, nobody would complain or notice or care. It really doesn't have much of a role, especially when you can go bolters+rhino for AI and hell talons/defilers for real av in t2 with much greater efficiency and speed.
A few closing points:
SM preds work because they are capable of being damage sponges (they don't really deal very much damage individually). Not onlydo they have high hp, but SM has a much better reparing builder to boot.
Dreads work also because they have an intermediary unit that can be fielded before it to keep gained initiative going. That unit is the landspeeder. As a player you never want to give your opponent a chance to recover, so if you know he has no AV, you throw an AI vehicle at him to trim his numbers some more. CSM can't really do that, and the landspeeder is one of the reasons the dread works. It's a stop gap, an intermediary, something to cost him to waste resources responding to(costs that normally would go into AV or resources or etc have to be spent replenishing lost troops, giving the dread a slightly greater window)
Last edited by SubakuGaara; 3rd Oct 08 at 3:23 PM.
I would hope that DPS wise stuff like Land Speeders and Hellhounds would outperform a Predator against infantry. That's because that's all they are good for.
The Predator, while somewhat geared more towards infantry, is also effective against vehicles. More so than Land Speeders and certainly Hellhounds. It's a generalist. It's a good unit, but it's a generalist. And, as a result, similiar to SM Tacs; It's generally outperformed by specialists at any of it's given roles. That doesn't mean it's not a solid unit.
And I'd still certainly take it over a Land Speeder anyday.
As for saying the CSM Predator doesn't work; Erm, yes, it does. Watch some CSM games were the player doesn't go Rap -> 'zerk -> PSM tech, and you'll nearly always see one. Probably both of them.
Oh...and as for stop-gaps...well, SM don't have a stop-gap infantry unit. CSM do. 'zerkers come out fast. Grey Knights don't (at least not since thier nerf to beyond the Sacred Artifact).
EDIT: Oh, and Simanos...Subaku is well known for being a bit of a Chaos fanboi. It's not anything new. But he's capable of logical reasoning sometimes)...people generally find a way to support some of his arguments by bringing forward how it might affect other races however, so it is worth reading his posts.
Last edited by KotCR; 3rd Oct 08 at 4:12 PM.
#66
This thread is about an issue that doesn't exist. I'm a little confused as to why you created the thread.
Your main point of contention is the Chaos Predator and yet you rate it highest out of all the things you mentioned. Do you want Predators to come out earlier (that wouldn't affect Chaos T4 in the slightest) or do you want them to be tougher/do more damage or do you want their roles to be different?
Surely you should be concentrating your efforts on the other 2 you mentioned since that's where the main weaknesses lie according to your opening post.
Last edited by corncobman; 3rd Oct 08 at 5:05 PM.
-It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end (Douglas Adams)-
-Make something idiot proof and nature will create a better idiot.-
-Me fail English? That's unpossible!-
Maybe he wanted the chaos pread stronger at T3/4 or anything like that.
Quick side note: ever since I started using tankbustaz for tie-up, I stopped researching infiltration. 4 or 5 tankbusta squads attack-meleeing infantry are way more durable and way more useful than equivalent cap of sluggas.horrors have crapiness level of around 8 out of 10. they lose only to tb w/o inflitration research(as soon as its researched, tb are much better)
They're also the second most durable infantry unit orks have, and scale with both armor upgrades, and they frequently juggle heroes with rokkits if they're unattached (<3 their work against the TC, for example), so they do a lot of things that horrors suck at.
The point I'm trying to make? You can't use tankbustaz for tie-up if you research infiltration, which is why I haven't researched it in a long time. They would have to let you turn off infiltration on units to make tankbusta infiltration an upgrade.
Now there's a thought. Why did they ever get rid of the infiltration toggle button anyway? Put that back in and make people who want to benefit from infiltration micro it for every unit that possesses the skill, same as Eldar FoF. Reduce the rate of fire of infiltrated squads. (They want to be stealthy and not blow their cover, right?)
[Edit] Also, why are people complaining about Chaos T4 vehicles when they have their Imbabombers in T2?
Last edited by Pseudonymn; 4th Oct 08 at 5:29 AM.
Gaara, would you mind making a summary of exactly what you want? I'm confused =\.
[Merged post via edits. plz delete]
Well there are a couple of area's were chaos seem to have pointless quirks or irritating mechanics or units that could scale up just a little better.
I'd be happy if they gave horrors a regen value of 1, so dmged units can be restored rather than just die the second you put the squad back into combat.
If the BL used zero pop, so it doesn't force you over your current pop limit making it impossible to replace a lost squad if it dies.
If oblits were attachable like practically everyother elite in the game, more so now there cost has gone up.
If the sorceror had a normal range teleport like everyone else's teleport units, it looks stupid at it's current range.
If the BL in combat regen, was doubled to 10/sec from 5 and it applied whenever the unit was attacking and causing dmg rather then it's current fighting infantry only regen.
Defilers autocannon got a range increase with chaos energies to 35.
@ prejudice
At this point not really sure...
Maybe 4000 HP even for the defiler and something like a 10-15% buff for defiler and predator damage values would be fine. Nothing excessive and still well below the inf damage for other tanks, but not bad...
You just said the Chaos Pred was weak and the Defiler (and Helltalon) much better and now you want a buff for the Defiler? The Defiler needs a nerf if anything for how fast it comes and what it can do.
Also some of your math is wrong, at least from the values I see at the Relic wiki. For instance you say 70 dps to inf heavy med while it is over 83 dps and other things. Let's not forget Chaos Pred is a TIER 2 CUSTOMIZABLE Vehicle with a good future.
Anyway I think this thread should be locked. You have digressed from the point which was a weak Chaos T4, going on about T2 or T3 weaknesses and vehicles. I think the consensus is that Chaos T4 is good enough and if anything needs to be added to it, it's CSM infiltration. So don't push it or your favourite chaos boys will get a nerf
@Gaara. I don't think pred damage needs to be buffed in any way. They're tough and they do helluva lota damage to tanks in T4. They're fine as is.
As for defilers, I'm not sure. Maybe they should get a buff... but they're a great multipurpose unit right now. Their artillery is really valuable; hence my reluctance in having them buffed further.
Choas already got it pretty f'n good in the vehicle department if you ask me, having all four vehicles to pick at tier two is a nice luxury that no other race has.
Auto cannon has good rounded damage. You seem to forget it has heavy bolters on it's sides, a pred can be a real pain at tier two if you don't have decent AV, 4000 HP for a tier two ranged vehicle is alot.
Compared to the SM predator, the Chaos Predator is cheaper pop and does twice as much damage with it's side las cannons to vehMed. At the cost of HP, sounds like a fair deal.
Blood thirster is the BEST combat relic unit in the game, he can base bash like no other, has awesome stats, can avoid any fight he doesn't want to fight, can enter the battle as soon as he's made with a bang.
People underestimate the power of the Blood thrister, it's amazing what a Blood thirster in the right spot can do.
Note: I've only read the first three pages or so.
#77
Anybody want to tell me why the Chaos Vehicle Bay has 5000HP ?
The_$h0gun - Exactly, because the beard = the law.
Painless:
Ive been askin that for AGES
I wanna answer now =]
Mosh4Life =]
#79
Even a decent force attacking it will have to face 2 defilers before it blows up. Sodding thing.
not with brights
well what if ur not eldar
Originally posted by OmegaDestroyer, about Necrons in SS:
If you like the Necrons, you'll be disappointed. They aren't one of the strongest races anymore. They didn't get hit by a nerfbat or anything; a truck carrying a bunch of nerfbats accidentally crashed into a restored monolith
THAT'S the statistic you want to pick at?Anybody want to tell me why the Chaos Vehicle Bay has 5000HP ?
How about the fact that a chaos gen weighs in at an incredibly fragile 25HP less than an ork wb2, which is to say, MORE DURABLE THAN AN ORK LP2?
Or the fact that a chaos lp1 has more than double the hitpoints of a boys hut? (Different armor type, but still.)
Yet every chaos player tells you to go for the gens because they're weak, while the LP2 bolters you to death. It's incredibly hard to cost a chaos player more by destroying his gens than he's costing you by wiping out your troops with an LP2, unless he completely ignores you.
AFAIK every lp2 is the same hp-wise as an lp1, and Ork LP1s are incredibly low on hp.How about the fact that a chaos gen weighs in at an incredibly fragile 25HP less than an ork wb2, which is to say, MORE DURABLE THAN AN ORK LP2?
You act like this is something amazing and imba. All 4 human races have lp1's with more than 2x the hp, and the other races come incredibly close to 2x the hp.Or the fact that a chaos lp1 has more than double the hitpoints of a boys hut? (Different armor type, but still.)
Actually, it's quite odd.
On the whole, CSM Structures have the most HP in the game.
However, there RAX is 300HP short of the SM/SoB RAX, but is the game's most expensive RAX.
Not that 2200HP is bad though; It's still way up there as one of the toughest RAXs.
As for the HP on some Ork buildings; 2 words Xanthian: Building Guns.
And that was a personal attack. Way to troll without adding anything constructive.I don't like your post(s). They are disjointed with poor arguments and writing skills. Looks like you post in the heat of the moment and can't contain yourself.
You accuse (almost incoherently) people at one point of being "Chaos haters". Try looking in the mirror for a "Chaos fanboy" maybe
Let us speak of infiltration and tier four than, goodsir, before you let the lock-happy mods in to quell our tongues, hm?
Or before you throw around anymore self-righteous wannabe mod attitude.
Oooh boy we get infiltrating chaos marines at tier three eh? Oh, that'd sound absolutely lovely if by than, not everyone in the game was given detectors of all types and sorts. If you want we can go by a race-by-race evaluation of exactly how many detectors you get and how it should never be a problem unless you play very poorly.
Oh, and one must remember that no matter how many chaos marines you bring along, they will A) Never detect, B ) Never have any anti-vehicle or anti-building, and C) Generally SHOULD get noticed if they're in any number large enough to cause damaged.
But more to the point, chaos really doesn't have any outstanding units at tier four, besides the bloodthirster. Every unit that we get than has some sort of large shortcoming, take the defiler. Yes it's a shitty whirlwind and a shitty, very large, un-deepstrikable dreadnought put together into one of our two mandatory(to fill pop cap) vehicle choices. Every single chaos army is going to have these unless they have an infantry fetish.
Problem being, they're just not that good against canny players. I mean sure, I can defile your listening posts across the mountains on into the breach, I can even be a raging dick and tear apart LPs in hand to hand. But let's say you're not completely retarded and fight back.
Whirlwinds beat defilers at indirect, and dreadnaughts, pound for pound, will always kill defilers in hand to hand, even with our expensive upgrade. And the upgrade isn't horrific, it lets us have ranged anti-vehicle that doesn't come from horrors(AV being something chaos definitely needs MORE of) But it's just two predators per chaos army. Woop-de-friggin-doo. If the enemy brings more sky rays than predators? You better believe those tanks are gone.
Chaos vehicles, in general, suck against other races vehicles at tier four(save the lascan pred. That's decently nice, but in no way tier 4 material.)
Now the blood thirster, I can't complain about except for the fact it, once again, suffers from the "I get something nifty, and in return I'm fundamentally weaker than my counterparts" He will lose in a straight on fight with krootox and avatar(which is a "i win" button ftl)
there are no i win buttons.
.....also you can kill the host of the Blood Thirster while its performing the "spiraling animation" and not only does it kill the host but it also kills the Blood Thirster as well, oh and no - you don't get you money back which means that 400 Rec and 400 power just vanished. It got lost in the warpNow the blood thirster, I can't complain about except for the fact it, once again, suffers from the "I get something nifty, and in return I'm fundamentally weaker than my counterparts"
Unless your using a trainer.there are no i win buttons.
Teamspeaker it seems my post hit a nerve for you. I didn't make a personal attack. I didn't say he's a child molester and anything he says on balance is therefore wrong. I made an observation on his post(s) here. If you go and check you will see how accurate it was. He was indeed typing in a heated way using bad grammar and forgetting words making sentences near illegible. He also did "call" people "chaos haters" and I pointed out that two can play at that game. And my views/impressions were supported by KotCR later on, I was right after all. So get a clue dude.
You love Chaos, we get that, but no reason to behave like a fanboy mate.
Your other points have already been answered/countered.
The problem with Chaos Tier 4 is not one unique to Chaos, or to Tier 4. Truthfully, pretty much every race in DOW has absolutely deplorably bad internal racial balance - most races have one unit that is close to 100% useless, and at least 2 units which are woefully over or underpowered for Tier. Chaos itself has a few mediocre units, a few kind of shitty units, and a few units that are so ridiculously strong you question developer logic (I AM LOOKING AT YOU, PSMs).
I personally blame WA for this; WA was what started the "lolfastech" and diminishing unit utility paradigm that infected DOW until at least DC 1.2. Regardless of the origins, it's a problem that seriously has made the whole game suffer.
The sad part is that it didn't have to be like this. With all due props to Reric for DOW, they have had a shockingly bad track record in regards to choices - it seems like every time that the decision has come between doing something quick and badly, or slow and correctly, the quick-and-dirty wins - every single time. FOTM and Hardcounters? Both ideal examples of the above.
The worst part is that the paradigm's been set; It's frustration-inducing to see how many people here are absolutely opposed to any change that would bring about improved racial balance and make underplayed units worth playing around with while roping in units that are ridiculously underpowered.
Again, let's look at Chaos. We get more (perfectly justified) threads about nerfing PSM than probably any unit but Talons, which are similarly overpowered at the 'mo. People talk about it, there is talks of Nerfings; talks, which, in my humble opinion, are justified, but cannot be justified without some kind of buff in another area so CSM Tier 3 is still viable. Similarly, people suggest making Obliterator Melee not completely shit (about as strong as a Raptor, most accounts call for), considering their slow-ass reload rate, horrendous movement rate, and fact that they are a hardcap 1 Shooty elite, yet they are beaten by other T-3 ranged specialists in close combat, and without fail, the thread descends into Chaos (pun intended) as people scream from the rafters that making them not suck in melee is the beginning of a heretofore unseen apocalypse.
It's not just units, either. Internal Tier Balance is dreadful in DOW. Chaos has a weak Tier 1, a fairly strong Tier 2, an ungodly strong tier 3, and a wholly underwhelming Tier 4. The sole exception to this is the Eldar, who are needlessly strong in every tier due to a combination of various advantages they have.
It's sad. When did we let ourselves get so dug-in on our ways of thinking that we just gave up trying to make this game better than it could otherwise be, both in terms of balance and gameplay? I always thought DOW was worth the effort. I'd love to see rewards for players who do things clever, like try some build that's really, really out there and yet have the moxie (and micro) to make it work.
But it will never, ever happen.
Last edited by Jaimas; 7th Oct 08 at 1:16 AM. Reason: lol i kant spel
The only units with good shooty and good melee are psm and necrons (and ogryns, to a lesser extent). And they are problematic to deal with if you can't both outshoot and outmelee them at the same time.Similarly, people suggest making Obliterator Melee not completely shit (about as strong as a Raptor, most accounts call for),
Every single ranged unit otherwise is balanced around being bad in melee. How bad doesn't really matter, but once they start approaching tac or csm level melee, not only do these two units suddenly have to be guaranteed to outshoot the unit in question (or else it's just a superior unit, period), but it messes with the balance, purely because not only can chaos and SM not tie them up with their staple unit, but armies with far weaker tie-up get steamrolled. (Tie up necrons with cultists? Good luck.)
What if flash gits, warp spiders, termies, etc. all started doing great melee damage, too?
All units scoring high on the melee + range scale are inherently imbalanced. The absolute best thing they could do would be to make the only units capable of being good at both, be heroes and relic units.
Last edited by Xanthian; 7th Oct 08 at 2:09 AM.
Xanthian, there's a whole range of dps numbers between great (melee damage) and abysmally low. It's not a black and white fallacy thing.
In the old days I remember terminators (not assault) had rather big dmg vs all. DoW vanillia I think.
Was there a problem with that? I never played DoW on multi, started only from DC.
Nope. Funnily enough, the Terminators in it never actually got used. Partly because they cost 4 cap a piece (Tacs were 2 cap still), and partly because their morale was pretty abysmal for when they came out (they only had 100 more morale than Tac Marines, but lacked the Morale Bonuses and Rally of a Sergeant). Also, they required a Relic.
Assault Terminators were still fairly common place though in the big games due to their perma-stun lock. Even with only 5 squads doing it, you could lack down half your opponent's army while still doing damage.
Actually, conventional Termies were awesome when backed by the FC in Vanilla. The main reason people didn't go all out for them was how completely insane Assault Termies were in contrast.
As for the argument regarding Termies and Oblits, The reason that people want the damage higher than average for them is exceedingly simple: because they have set-up times and retarded slow attack rates on a unit that is insanely slow and stands literally no chance of getting away if attacked. They're durable, to be sure, and hose out fairly good damage (to most things, in the case of oblits), but compared to multitasking elites, such as Warp Spiders or Kasrkin, and they flat-out get their asses kicked, both in terms of efficiency and melee combat effectiveness, where their weak-as-scouts melee means they die to anything while their slow speed prevents any chance of escape. The long lag on Teleport certainly doesn't help matters.
FYI, having done labs, Obliterators lose at melee combat to Every other Shooty Elite in the game in melee due to their low damage and small squad size. Termies fare only slightly better. I wouldn't mind them losing at melee combat had they something to show for it - but other than target flexibility, they are badly eclipsed by many other shooty elites (especially Warp Spiders, which in classic WTF syndrome, have Oblit-level HP and damage when equipped, whilst moving considerably faster, having an instant teleport (compared to the slow Oblit and Termie one), Anti-vehicle grenades (which are considerably more efficient than having Oblits shell something for a while), and a bigger squad size on a unit considerably lighter on hardcaps).
Both Termies and Oblits have advantages; Termies themselves get access to the ultra-effective assault cannon, and Oblits are reasonably strong against most things - but they generally pale for efficiency against other hardcapped elites.
And even if the above weren't true, the way Tier balance is handled? STILL SUCKS.
oblits come out t3 do good damage to pretty much every thing, they are not meant to be used on their own. a single unreinforced squad if ws with the first optics and armour upgrade will get pwned by a oblits straight out of the box. oblits also have far greater range. cost for cost the oblits win. plus oblits can be deployed anywhere on the map out of the box which negates their need for great mobility.
Offset by the fact that they can't get away if attacked up close and their teleport ability is functionally useless save to get into an enemy base or isolated position (rooftops on Fallen City).
Also, does not change the fact that Tier balance in DOW sucks.
I don't know if I should even dare poke my head up into the rarefied atmosphere here (I have a very long neck, so I can do that). I have never, ever played against a human being, so my opinion may be worthless.
However, I think that the Bloodthirster -- being, after all, an enormous daemon of murder -- might benefit from a morale-sapping aura similar to that of Flayed Ones. Perhaps this would increase the Goat-Headed One's usefulness, and correspondingly that of Chaos' T4?
Feel free to mock my suggestion mercilessly.
Red Elf needs food badly. Red Elf is about to die.
No it's fine. The races still affected by morale at the end of the game are the ones Chaos tends to beat at the end of the game anyway
saying tier balance sucks is a bit stong, ok it may not be perfect.
seems to me you think oblits should be a win all unit on their own. which imo would be rubbish.
No, I think that they shouldn't completely suck shit in melee, given that their stats do not support their doing so. Termies are the same way (difference being that the Advantage Termies have, rather than target flexibility, is a borderline-broken Anti-Infantry weapon that deals out DPS better than many dedicated AI vehicles. The fix on that one would involve ratcheting back assault cannon damage a tad, and giving their melee a buff, making it so that while they're ranged specialists, they're not hugely disadvantaged in melee to the point where they can be tied up by a Bonesinger which they can never escape.). It makes sense given that due to their slow attack rates and movement speeds, you'd never want to use them for offensive melee in the first place. It just stops ultra-stupid moments like them losing to every other goddamn shooty elite in CC.
As for Tier Balance not sucking, compare SM T1 to T2, just as an example. Or Chaos T1 with Chaos T3. The list goes on, but the Tier power levels are totally disproportionate, a situation unchanged from the WA "streamlining."
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