[SS] DKoK: Repentance & Sacrifice (IG)| 06/2010: Grenadier & Engineer | Need anim+tex

[AshaD]

Thats an interesting concept much better than what I'd thought of. I was thinking of just a plain square one. If your using SS code its probably possible to make the trench unmelee-able using segments of flyer code. If the trench is then surrounded by barbed wire you could then justify not being able to use melee on the trench. Hell, you could make the trenches garrisonable so that the more squads you put in the trench the more stubbers are active and the more units are up on the firing step much like the IG listening posts.. I know its possible because its done in the AS mod if you've seen their listening posts.

If you want confirmation of the possibilites with the code the best person I can recommend is mankyle if hes prepared to help.

[Lleman]

AshaD, you didn't think we would not have this already neatly wrapped up before going public, hm?

[Kresjah]

Thanks for the heads up, but I can assure you that our team is well aware of the possibilities and know how to use them. If anything, it's not a matter of what technique to use, but what would look best and be most feasible.

Both the "enable hardpoint on number of squads held modifier" (implemented in WA) technique and the "dark eldar raider hold" (implemented in SS) technique are fairly easy to use and make from a coding perspective.


EDIT:
As for unmeleeable trenches, we're still debating how to make that work, but think about this hypothetical situation.

Note that values here are strictly hypothetical, and have been exaggerated to put more emphasis on the point I'm trying to make here.

"Heeeey, I have 20 squads of Howling Banshees, now to go wreak some havoc".

...

"Oh, crap, he's got a 200 hp building low trench that I can't move past and can't destroy with my 20 squads of Howling Banshees".

[Lleman]

@Khannis:

Now we've only got to see some armor... will Macharius be in-game with all it's variants?

Check the OP now.

Basically, the Macharius will be the late tier Armoured Korps superunit, even though it's less powerful and, erm, 'hitpointy' than a Baneblade... hence it being capped to 2. Makes for a small but quite powerful squadron or for a pretty annoying nuisance if used in separate locations.
That and we didn't want to use any heavier tanks. We leave this province to the AC mod.

[zuthen]

hmm...this is a VERY interesting idea. i myself love it and hope it turns out well. one question though, will you be able to see the units inside the trench? so far i know that there have been buildings wich you could 'bunker' down in (ig) but you never could see the units inside.

[Khannis]

The tank-tree (fancy name) is looking freakin-f*ckin' awesome!

Can't wait to see that Macharius beast rolling... As a side note, the Armoured Korps branch seems a little short on units than Siege Korps. Might be an impression though.

Anyways, absolutely great job

[Lleman]

@Zuthen:

will you be able to see the units inside the trench? so far i know that there have been buildings wich you could 'bunker' down in (ig) but you never could see the units inside.

Hear the code-padawan answer; the master will correct or flog me tomorrow if i misstepped here. ;D
We intend to use the same principles indeed as that of the IG Bunker ability or that of the IG Chimera in addition to the DE Raider's, with hardpoints set so that X number of infantrymen can 1) show up from the trench; and 2) fire from the trench in addition to the weapon systems fitted to the trench itself.
If i'm not mistaken, it's a matter of fiddling with hardpoints 'definition', squad_hold_ext and dark_eldar_raider... but then i may be totally off the mark.

Sorry if this doesn't make much sense for non-coders and if for lack of an appropriate vocabulary it doesn't make sense either for coders.

[zuthen]

lol dont worry your not the only code-padawan on the forums belive me XD. so basicaly your gonna screw around with the units hardpoints and the dark eldar raider a bit? damn i just realized something...im gonna need soulstorm XD ahahahaha figures, even that awsome ass titan mod is going all soulstorm on meh lol.

[Lleman]

No, i'm not gonna mess up with code in a vague direction. Kresjah is the one who lives in it and who masters the stuff.

[zuthen]

ah, well good luck to kresjah then! i know im a long way to being even competent with code. that stuff requires a big brain (damn! im already out!) and LOADS of patience, well probably some bud too lol. real brain scratcher that stuff is.

[Kresjah]

Well done young code-padawan. You are learning fast.

In other words, completely correct Lleman. Of course, things are subject to change, but that was as far as I've understood the intention.

[zuthen]

hmm, this sounds like a very good idea! i love the bunker concept and hope the best for you. im sure this mod will turn out amazing.

[fuggles]

You could give the trench a 100% melee damage reduction modifier - just a thought.

[Kresjah]

The inherent problem isn't making it unmeleeable. That should be fairly easy, be it done through modifiers or some other way.

The problem is as I mentioned, the silliness of the whole situation if they can't bring it down, hence my 20 Howling Banshees squad example... replace with whatever unit can only melee and not shoot at all.

Although, thanks for the suggestions.

[AshaD]

Thats a nice idea fuggles.

I can understand what kresjah is saying about an unmeleeable building being unbalanced but it would look odd seeing those banshees slash at barbed wire.

Is it possible to give buildings a melee_ext. I'm pretty sure its not, but if it is you could have the DKoK fending off melee attackers with polearms or climbing out of the trenches to use swords/daggers/sharp objects.

[Lleman]

And yay for animations.

[AshaD]

Was that sarcasm I detect?

I appreciate the difficulty of those animations. I've dabbled myself.

[Kresjah]

I don't think that would be possible AshaD. Afaik, melee is a squad reliant function, even if it does have a few entity based extensions.

Regardless, it would be practically impossible for it to look correct. There would be no feasible way to have the "transported" unit line up correctly with it's attackers, as once inside a transporter they are considered one single unit.

And yes, we realize that can look silly too. We've been discussing lately, and we haven't come to any defined decision yet. I suggested possibly to modify the trenches by giving them an outer wall of sandbags (like the Relic HWT) that holds the earth bank in shackles. That would at least give a wall for them to pound on. If the others on the team find it feasible enough, that's up to them. This was just a suggestion I threw yesterday, and nothing more.

I mean, it looks silly with Assault Marines that are as high as, or higher than an Imperial Guard Command HQ, which pound at it's walls then it explodes in fiery fury... we can only limit silliness to a certain point.

[AshaD]

I understand entirely.

I think the method you suggested sounds good enough to me. I guess its a limitation of the engine.

[horusheretic]

Both the "enable hardpoint on number of squads held modifier" (implemented in WA) technique and the "dark eldar raider hold" (implemented in SS) technique are fairly easy to use and make from a coding perspective.

i have tried quite a while to get the dark eldar raider ability working to epic fail, even examining closely everything i could find related to it. if you have got it working, please enlighten me....before i release the hounds

btw its not a model orientated thing since the model is coded just like ny other in the OE. its all code related

[Kresjah]

I'll admit that the theory is very simple, but I have not gone to the extent of actually testing it... because it was so simple.

If none of us can get it working, then it is most likely a hardcoded thing. I know it sounds odd that it's hard coded, but have you ever tried using the screaming jets function?

Basically, screaming jets function are just some extra attributes in the squad_jump_ext that mostly just adds area_effect to it. Quite simple to add to other things then, right?

Well, I did just that. I even went to the extent of doing a complete copy & paste of the squad_jump_ext from the Raider to my new unit. Squad jumping worked, screaming jets didn't trigger. It looks like screaming jets are tied to trigger only if unit name is dark_eldar_whateverthenameofunitthathasit.

With that in mind, it might be that this is why you can't get it working. I have myself not actually tested it, but we'll see soon enough. Trying to code stuff in a specific order, so I haven't reached the trenches yet, but once I do I'll give you a heads up on the situation.

EDIT: Or you can contact me on MSN, ask Llemonhead for my address.

[Chaplain261]

Thats still a great Idea, and looks amazing from that picture good luck guys.

[Jaguar-Lord]

hmmm... looks like realistic trenches fight are not to be seen in a near future.

[Malcador123]

i know we need to keep building amounts down, but couldnt you just make two buildings, one "vertical" dog bone one "horizontal" dog bone. to cover the two regular approaches. you know what i mean? if not forget it if so kool.

[Kresjah]

First of all, there is no room for any more buildings. 11 is the max, and we've already filled that quota.

As for covering the entire spectrum, The whole idea behind the doggy-bone layout is the fact that it DOES cover all areas. That's why we have currently gone with that one over other options.

[Malcador123]

hmmmm, ok sounds like a plan.

[Khannis]

Would love to see an updated version of the trenches.

Of any model/texture/whatever you have to show, in fact

[Lleman]

All in due time. Focus is on code these days with us all trying to smooth out some bits here and there as Kresjah codes on rather than keeping all the corrections to do when it's finished.

Modeling-wise Julian has almost finished the Malcador with all variations, of which you can see renders in the OP. A basic model and a biggie are in the works too. Oh, and we've been supplied another rather crushing piece of armour by the nearest forgeworld.

As for the trench it will go along the lines described by Julian in the wip and will most likely be very close to that in the render he posted.

[Sentinel]

Would using an advanced build menu make the mod incompatible with other mods?
From what I remember the Annihilation 1.7 has an advanced build menu and I've combined that with the Steel Legion. At least I think it was 1.7...

I suppose Ombre's (can't remember the rest of his name) UI is definitely out of the question?

Sorry for pushing this if it's already been discussed and decided upon.
I just think that a trench build menu would be pretty cool.

Good luck with it all anyway.

[Kresjah]

Anything that modifies taskbar.lua, gamescreen.screen or any similar engine files can be considered incompatible, thus that's why we go with the standard 11.

[Sentinel]

Ah, ok. A pity.
Thanks for the quick reply.

[XIXTheReaperXIX]

well this look AWSOME.. i forsee many many many trech maps on the horrision as a result of ths mod

[Julian]

Just thought I would point out that the images of the malcador in the OP have been Updated

[Khannis]

Looking great! The model absolutely captures that rough-warfare WWI-esque look!

Well done Julian, well done

[Julian]

Just to keep people updated, heres evidence of what I'm currently working on, the gallery shows the steps i've taken so far in modeling the minotaur, the Krieg's premier artillery dealing device, she's quite a beast, and although ugly, has something of an appealing charm.

Minotaur Work In Progress Gallery

I'd like to point out that the Minotaur is still very much a work In progress, and has yet to pass any of Lleman's stringent scaling and pernicketing tests™ Plus, its not finished yet, thats why everything is in all the colours of the rainbow.

[doom199]

that looks wonderful hope this mod comes out with more surprises

[Perturabo]

Cool, i must say I didn't know much about DkoK (till i read this thread) but will this mod include mole launcher's for the Engineers? and what about that funky drill thingy? dont really see it being usefull.

[Lleman]

The Mole Mortar (or launcher for all the new fluff guys ) will be a weapon upgrade for the engineers squad. (check the OP )

As for the Hades breaching drill, it won't be used in this mod. As much use it can have in TT game (although only in siege/vs. bunkers games) it wouldn't have any real potential in DoW.

[fuggles]

I'd really like to see tank traps. There already is one in the map editor, it just needs to be given some solidity. Not sure if that is DKOKish, but they seem like the type to slap down sandbags, tank traps etc.

All looks great so far!

[Lleman]

Ah well, the tech-tree originaly featured tank traps since it's indeed very much what a trench/attrition/siege specialist army would use but we had to remove them from the structure list.
The reason was simple: to maintain 'similarity' to and compatibility with 'regular' mods we had to keep the number of structures to 11. If you count them in the detailed tech-tree in the OP you'll see we've reached that number. The choice was therefore to remove one structure that would serve the least, hence the removal of the tank traps.

[Khannis]

That Minotaur is a beast! Congratz Julian

What exactly that Mole Launcher does?

[Lleman]

In fluff terms, it fires an underground moving mortar shell that pops right below some enemy's ass without taking much into consideration the protection afforded by whatever said foe is hiding in/behind.

[Malcador123]

so wait why did u guys choose compatibility with other mods, over all the amazing stuff you could add if you weren't tied down by the constraints?

[Lleman]

...because we wanted people to enjoy themselves much more when playing the DKoK against other armies... Was that a trick question?

[Kresjah]

Quite simple. Death Korps of Krieg and Inquisition: Daemonhunt battles? Combiner mod compatibility?

[Chaplain261]

Wow this mods really turning out great.

[Khannis]

Any progress guys?

[Kresjah]

There has definately been progress made. Julian has done some great modelling, and I've been working on code. However, I have four exams within the next three weeks, so right now that has priority.

So, progress indeed.

[Lleman]

What Kres isn't mentioning is that one of the organizational tool we use for DKoK: R&S and for an fair number of other projects has known some changes as of late (yes, this means $$$) and consequently we have had to rework our system in depth to keep things running as we wish. Therefore we have (well, he has, mainly, smooth-talker that he is ) been involved in some thoroughly thought negociations to keep this affordable, meaning the funnier aspects of modding have been set aside while it went.
Oh, and not mentioning either that we're working on and for other mods as well... ("if i'm pro-cloning, yessir!" :P)

[Ludovsky]

Ah well, the tech-tree originaly featured tank traps since it's indeed very much what a trench/attrition/siege specialist army would use but we had to remove them from the structure list.
The reason was simple: to maintain 'similarity' to and compatibility with 'regular' mods we had to keep the number of structures to 11. If you count them in the detailed tech-tree in the OP you'll see we've reached that number. The choice was therefore to remove one structure that would serve the least, hence the removal of the tank traps.

Just something I was thinking, but could it be theorically made into an ability?
I mean, for example, the Chaos Lord already can place cloaked beacons giving him vision in an area, and the Tau Commander(for another) can himself place his snare traps.

Maybe an equivalent, albeit in the form of an impassable cluster of tank traps, could be made by tagging it to some engineer unit or maybe some kind of air drop(I think some have actually been deployed that way historically, though I could go wrong)?