4 minutes for one scarab? Seems a bit high.
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#251
4 minutes for one scarab? Seems a bit high.
Well, not 4 minutes, but 40 seconds is still a long time. 5 seconds less than a Leman Russ.
No it is around 2-3 minutes
Remember you are not going to have any LP's on caps, which significantly improve reinforce time
WTF does that mean?Originally Posted by Melonplant
And lol on saying the necron economy is the harder to harass.
"Since the 1v1 automatch rotation involves maps of varying sizes, the necron model just can't work with it. This point has been obvious and pointed out since relic even hinted at the necron economic model. Surprise surprise."
Xanthian, I said that too many pages ago. Lets just try to make the best of it. Resource sharing is impossible to balance tough.
'Flashing' gens is never, ever, ever going to happen. So we might as well forget about it. I'm afraid you're right. Decay removal from all gens might happen (slim chance though) if we ask for it enough. Then again...
Back to+4 range with first upgrade it is then.
PS: No Necron replays of top players dominating yet?
'Top players' play the top races.
lol n00b
You use your builder scarabs to make an obelisk. When you build the obelisk, you are given 12 power back after completion.WTF does that mean?
If you'd like to participate in a discussion about the necron economy, make sure you understand some of the basics. Let me know if anything else is too complex for you. I love explaining the things I expect to be understood by the general population.
Also, saying "lol on necron economy" doesn't mean anything. I'm sure you have some swell arguments indicating otherwise but your internet laugh does not convey your ideas as clearly as you'd expect.
Greyhounds are my favorite, still!
Fast panzer4! Coming soon, to a motorpool near you!
He means wtf in the sense that obelisks don't generate any power, so how the hell can they pay themselves off at all unless they return more power when you complete an obelisk then it cost you
Last edited by PandaMine; 12th Nov 08 at 11:26 PM.
He probably thinks about the return value ,when you delete it
That which does not kill us, makes us stranger.
That still doesn't mean a pay off, sorry melonplant but this is bloody retarded
In order to "pay off" something it means either both OR point 1.
1. Whatever you are building increases you're income (directly or indirectly) and the payoff time is the time until whatever you built increase bonus pays off how much you spent to make the building
2. If you complete the building and it returns income upon completion of building. Note that unless the income returned is greater then the income spent (never the case in DoW i believe) if the building does not increase you're income then it doesn't EVER pays itself off
3. Anything after the "pay off" is pure profit (only works if they generate income)
Emphasis on what is in bold, Obelisks NEVER either directly or indirectly (no they do not increase how much power you get NOR do they improve the build time of gens) so therefore they CANNOT every pay themselves off. When you complete an obelisk it is half way to paying itself off, but it never actually does so. Likewise the Obelisks do not generate any power, therefore they do not put profit into you're economy. All they do is increase reinforcement time/unit building time and the construction of some buildings (NOT gens)
Jesus I thought this would be common sense ....
I guess that proves who is talking shit here guys. Who doesn't know the "basics".
(hint: return value is delete refund not completion gift. LP and generators have completion gifts of 50% usually. Necron gens are the only ones that do not have gift. Obelisks are right out! /Parrot Sketch, Monty Python)
Nuketrooper kindly point out to your "mate" here that he just made an "ass" of himself
I really hope Relic gives NW +4 range (that almost all agreed here) and Necrons in general some love in the next patch.
Sorry Melonplant, but Return Value is not the same as Resource Gift.
Oops. Guess I should check my facts before I act like an ass.
Did a pretty good job at derailing everything. Sorry about that
Simanos what worries me is there even going to be a next patch? I don't feel that confident about there being another patch.
Well, we'll see. Won't we? Or maybe we won't. Heh.
Either way, I've managed to learn quite alot about this race that I thought I already knew tons about lol, keep this thread alive guys.
I don't know if I'm a "top player" or anything like that but Necron is my favorite and most used race. Because as much as I try, no other race can get the job done as well as Necrons. That's speaking from experience.
And those complaining about Power Gens decaying. Please, quiet down about that lol. I really don't want necrons to get anymore nerfs xD
I really miss my Immportals having 200 flat out attack power :P, now it's 175, blasphemy! Oh well lol, that's my only complaint. Along with the restored monlith trapping units inside of it.
On topic: Necron +4 Range? You have my vote.
Even without +12 power upon completion, the 25 power for an obelisk is incredibly cheap and completely negligible.
Katana was still smacking around Servant with crons in SS 1.0 quite regularly. Cha0s still plays Necs occasionally (wraith spamming nab) but as a general rule, top players don't like playing necs.No Necron replays of top players dominating yet?
Katana! That was his name. He gave me a good butt kicking back in DC. I wish I could say I gave him a run for his money.
Agreed. I'd always felt the part of the obelisk I have gripes with to be the upgrades. I'm more inclined to save the 75 power for teching. Let's not even begin on the 150 power second upgrade.
Wailing doom is way too good for a 75 energy investment. Way too good by at least a factor of 3. Way. Too. Good.
Consider the 150 energy upgrade to be bringing the obelisk in line with what it should have originally cost to build and upgrade. Not that, y'know, anyone actually builds the second upgrade, so that's irrelevant.
#270
If the Necrons started with 1000/100 like everybody else then i would agree, but they don't. So 75 power early game is a fair wadge of cash mate. yes its equal to 2 NW but if its not used...... its a quarter of there starting resources wasted.
Personally i think the pricing is nearly perfect, the second upgrade is maybe 10-20 power too expensive but thats it (i play necs so i am biased).
I think they got it all but 100% spot on.
The_$h0gun - Exactly, because the beard = the law.
If anyone has played the table top round up mod by Zany Reaper, that is a true representation of what Necrons should be. Hell its a true representation of what all the races should be, as it actually stuck to the TT. Hell in the mod, things are almost perfectly balanced (in my opinion), Tau aren't imba, Eldar aren't imba, Crons are not useless in 90% of the games and DE don't suck in T4 but aren't as powerful in earlier tiers.
When relic released DoW, they basically just used the DoW fluff and made their own RTS out of it, they swapped and changed a lot of things around for every race and so its not suprising that these imbalances happened. If they just stuck to how TT as much as possible they wouldn't have all these balance issues
In any case, Relic has a huge task on balancing the game properly, as they have screwed around with so much stuff that DoW is just another RTS that uses W40K's units and races (i.e. fluff). If they just increase the ceiling of the crons economy (as Immortal Chaos said) and made the first DF upgrade increase range by 4, that would be a good start
Huge overstatement dude. The game is better balanced now than it has ever been. Also, just because units aren't carbon-copies of TT or exactly particular to every last detail of the fluff, doesn't mean it is just some RTS with a 40k background. This game plays and feels like warhammer should, and you're just in denial if you insist otherwise.In any case, Relic has a huge task on balancing the game properly, as they have screwed around with so much stuff that DoW is just another RTS that uses W40K's units and races (i.e. fluff).
Anyways, on topic:
Necs do need a few small buffs to their early game- they really are a non-competitive race right now, they are too easy to overwhelm or out-tech. I'd make the archive a little different:
120 power cost
-Buff. This makes the absolutely vital NL upgrades more accessible. Right now you almost break your own back to get them, yet they're the only thing that can keep you alive at times.
Allow it to be used to get to T2.
-Everyone else can do it. The SC is still likely to be purchased every game, as it contains vital upgrades, and FOs/wraiths are the only counters necs can muster against certain races. The actual summon ability is still linked to this as well.
70 second build time
-Small nerf, to make sure that necs wouldn't be able to get the abilities overwhelmingly quicker, and also so that necs couldn't use it instead of the summoning core to tech faster (it would now build at the same speed as the SC).
After that, The first NW upgrade could be made a touch cheaper, maybe 180 power. The globals are still slightly too expensive right now; I'd reduce their cost by just 25 power each.
I don't see why everyone is crying for late game buffs here- The only thing I really want changed about their end game is that the monolith could really use 12500 HP, so that it actually died after losing 10000, like the BB and the LR. It essentially has 7500 HP as is, and I really don't feel like that is enough.
#273
That was the whole point.When relic released DoW, they basically just used the DoW fluff and made their own RTS out of it
If you want to talk about DOW's failings compared to mods and TT I suggest you take it away from the balance discussion forums.
Anyway to avoid this post being completely useless my wishes for Necrons are as follows:
First Disruption Field upgrade increases range slightly
Restored Monolith no longer cloaked by Veil of Darkness but gets a health increase
Flayed Ones move slightly faster.
-It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end (Douglas Adams)-
-Make something idiot proof and nature will create a better idiot.-
-Me fail English? That's unpossible!-
Im not going to dwell on this much longer, but the game feels like W40K because it uses their stuff, in terms of tactics and strategy it is incredibly different. The game is only slightly more balanced in DC/SS compared to WA, but only because hard capps were introduced and IG got fixed, Eldar/Tau are still borked as hell and there are a huge number of issues that I won't go into now. I mean even if you listen to what Simanos said about Necrons, just reading the tooltips for immortals where they are supposed to be more "durable" then warriors really shows somethingHuge overstatement dude. The game is better balanced now than it has ever been. Also, just because units aren't carbon-copies of TT or exactly particular to every last detail of the fluff, doesn't mean it is just some RTS with a 40k background. This game plays and feels like warhammer should, and you're just in denial if you insist otherwise.
Everyone is crying about Crons in late game because
1. They hardly ever reach that stage of the game, because they get out teched by other races
2. They spend so much money on gens that they don't have enough power to support a T4
3. They are reliant on Mono/Lord to do anything in T4, if it wasn't for those units Crons would be totally screwed
4. Other races on larger maps can easily get twice the economy of necrons
5. Since crons economy is all centralised, any raid on your base not only kills you're economy, but building it up takes a huge amount of power and time that is unrealistic
6. Warriors move so slow and have such bad range that Plasma/HB shred through them before they even do any damage.
7. FO's move so slowly that they are easy to dodge and their morale reduction aura becomes kind of redundant
8. They have limited walkers with incredibly low HP (3000) which under AV fire lasts barely a second
1. Strange, I tend to hit T4 with crons just as much as I would any race, if not more.
2. That's completely wrong, you don't need more than ~+100 to afford T4 stuff and that's far from being unreasonable.
3. That's the point of the race.
4. Maybe in a free for all- guess what? Free for alls aren't even supposed to be balanced.
5. There's this thing called summoning.
6. This is why the necron lord is so powerful
7. Flayed ones are not meant to actually kill anything. Technically, no melee units are, except for races that have an ensnaring ability to go along with them. Use them to tank, to stall, to harass economy, to counter enemy melee units- they can be used to great effect, but a unit doesn't need to actually be able to catch things to be useful.
8. It's called a support unit. It's not really meant to take fire, really just for picking up bodies and possibly harrassing.
Melonplant, peace dude. Let's put this all behind us.
I think 25 power is spot on for Obelisks, not cheap at all (remember Necron power is about double the req). Lets not forget other races pay 50 or 40 for their LPs and get income bonus from them too. 75 and 150 seem fair to me too, though the gun seems a bit weak and again no income bonus (or even pop bonus and time bonus!). Maybe the Wailing (and extra hitpoints) should be added with the second upgrade and the gun with the first (and no extra hitpoints).
I see nice ideas floating around and I really hope they do make another patch since Pigletdude said they might not and made me worry.
PS: I want to explain again that the decay thing is only fair if you make flashing cost as much as other races cost to build gens, because otherwise necron gens are fubared.
The obelisk system is fine, goddamnit.
other races pay 50 or 40 for their LPs
I think he means the req you get at completing an LP.
Not sure on the amount, but it's possibly something like 30-40 req. Maybe more or less, utterly not sure now, since I haven't played for ages.
So with the average lp cost 100 - it brings the cost to around 60.
All of the Listening Posts (except the Obelisk) return 50 req upon completion, but some cost 100 req (Space Marines, IG, Tau, DE, SoB), 90 req (Chaos, Orks) and 80 req for Eldar. The effective cost goes down to 50, 40 or 30.
A LP1 Obelisk isn't going to defend itself. If it's a single low-tier squad, it might recharge its special in time to finish them off. And that's if the initial blast didn't spam them apart. It also offers no investment return, of course.
I've never been impressed with Necron LPs, but that's not really the point with Necrons. They're just sort of... there. It would be nice if there was a true point to upgrading them, but I typically don't bother. The only times I upgrade them are when it's a single choke point in early tiers that I could use a small DPS boost in defending, or when it's T4 and I have resources to burn. If I need my energy and fighting off a larger force, I'd sooner spend the investment in infantry or a vehicle than waste it on a LP2, which technically has good enough DPS, but just wastes most of it on improper targets.
By the time a LP2 is a halfway good idea, there's no way it's going to have much of a consequence. LP1s are basically glorified "hold them off" buildings.
LOL Riotlung, right you are for Eldars.
I always though they got back 40, but they do get 50 too. So it costs 80, you get back 50 and if you delete it you get back 40 more for a net 10 profit!
I know of course no one will delete it cause of the +6 income, just saying how cheap LPs are and that 25 pow for an Obelisk is in no way "too cheap".
Hmm, it takes 24 seconds with one builder, 16 seconds with 2.
In 16 seconds +6 produces 9.6 req so you barely break even LMAO.
Let's move on?The obelisk system is fine, goddamnit.
Quoting yourself in this way is [expletive deleted] and you said:
"Even without +12 power upon completion, the 25 power for an obelisk is incredibly cheap and completely negligible."
You started it so now eat your words as its been proven 25 power is not even close to cheap. It's average priced at best. Considering starting "money" and incomes I mean.
Did I say that it was too cheap? No. Also, how the heck could I have been the one to have started it when you quoted me responding to another point about obelisks having a resource gift? Great logic. Now, can we shut the hell up about them and let's talk about something that is actually an issue.
So... About NW's range/damage in T3/T4 then. Range buffs with DF upgrades I and II to 21 and 25 respectively. Do they really need a damage buff beyond what they already receive?
Possibly. You also have to consider Warrior movement speed at the same time as their range. Due to their plodding ways, they tend to get congested at range during an attack approach, especially if you're telling them to attack-move. Otherwise you have to tell each squad to move independently. That's something all races have to deal with, but no race moves as slowly. If it was up to me, their range would be somewhere near 30, but it's not. Speaking from experience, if you play as next to nothing but Necrons and then switch to practically any other race, you're easily astonished at basic infantry's seemingly massive range. I can't even get near Fleet of Foot without wanting to hit someone.
I find fights against Necrons do be a bit fudged, it's either "lol you can't touch my HB" or "omg death march gg".
That still doesn't mean too cheap. I could say cultists are incredibly cheap; doesn't mean I'm saying they are too cheap. What I was implying is that 25 power isn't a big deal. Weather it costs 13 power or 25 power, it's still inexpensive.
IMO necrons starting power is fine- if you want to increase it, make scarabs and nec warriors actually cost something. Early game, necs are very close to being competent- they just need a few researches to be more accessible, really.
Simanos does make a point about the BS-WT rush: It sucks big time when it happens. Maybe reduce the cost of the 2nd 'lith slightly?
What in the world would be the point in giving them more power if you're just going to take it away by making units cost something? That's even worse, as it will cost something in every tier from that point on.That still doesn't mean too cheap. I could say cultists are incredibly cheap; doesn't mean I'm saying they are too cheap. What I was implying is that 25 power isn't a big deal. Weather it costs 13 power or 25 power, it's still inexpensive.
IMO necrons starting power is fine- if you want to increase it, make scarabs and nec warriors actually cost something. Early game, necs are very close to being competent- they just need a few researches to be more accessible, really.
I don't think Necrons really need more initial energy, although that's because I've been going with a Warrior mass BO lately instead of using the Necron Lord, which helps my economy out. If you build the NL and then reinforce a Warrior squad a little, you're slightly crippling your early economy, as Scarabs will end up standing around waiting for energy to build new generators, which will just get more and more expensive.
I'd say decrease the Lord cost in T1 to 125, if you even want to change anything.
I'm not sure how things even transitioned to economy, especially T1 economy. This thread is about Warriors in T4.
Yes, it is. And given that fact, I have a question:This thread is about Warriors in T4
What does the "optimum" (don't fight it, just indulge me) T4 full-pop Necron infantry force look like?
The reason I ask is this: It seems to me that Crons have an infantry pop disadvantage compared to every other race.
Warriors take 3 cap, as do Flayed. Pariahs take 4.
Would not a modest T4 infantry pop bonus do the job? Say 24?
Econ balance remains untouched.
Early tier balance remains untouched.
To quote the OP:Having moreresilientWarriors will result inbetter formations, which will result in less dependence on Flayed One spam (which is not fun for either party) andless chance of an entire Necron military (which is very hard to produce to begin with) being completely wiped out in less than 30 seconds.
If you're actually, y'know, playing the game, losing your whole army won't happen in 30 seconds.
Also, you can already get 24 cap with a tomb spyder.
Which makes up for the 3 pop on NW and the 4 pop on pariahsIf you're actually, y'know, playing the game, losing your whole army won't happen in 30 seconds.
Also, you can already get 24 cap with a tomb spyder.
#295
You can actually get 25 cap.
Actually, you can make it 25... but who's counting?
[Edit] Damn! Ninja'd while I was browsing the wiki!
That's another good point, though. Are stock NWs even worth 3 pop?
To name a few,
NW Pros:
- Lots of individual HPs.
- FoM beats most other infantry units; the Undead Tango is the best dance in the game.
- The first three in each squad are free.
- Decent ranged and melee DPS (if they ever catch up).
- Chance of reassembling @ 1/3 original HP
- Summon every 2 minutes to friendly, non-turret buildings.
NW Cons:
- Slow (cumulative with every individual NW on the map) build time.
- Slow reinforce time
- Slow movement speed
- Shortest reach in the game for any shooty infantry class.
- Poor HP regeneration rate
- No attachable commander/support units.
Last edited by Pseudonymn; 19th Nov 08 at 6:17 PM.
No they are definitely not, its not uncommon to see other races outnumber crons in T4 as well.
Immortals should have 3 squad cap and NW 2 and not the other way around
The disadvantage is that the Tomb Spyder cannot make Pariahs or Wraiths. If you lose those while you're over the 25 limit, they're gone forever. Or at least until your population drops to 18, or 16 in the case of Pariahs.
I've actually been experimenting with optimum T4 builds. Typically, a "maxed" infantry army would look like this:
4 pop - Pariahs
9 pop - 3 Warriors
6 pop - 2 Flayed Ones
6 pop - 3 Immortals
Sounds good, right? Not so much. An army like that can be overwhelmed fairly easily. Pariahs, as discussed earlier, disrupt more than they damage normal infantry. Flayed Ones are more for spreading the defense and tanking while your Warriors deal damage. However, with only two squads, you aren't spreading too much, and with so much ranged firepower (in comparison to Crons) in T4, FOs can go down easily if you're in a fair fight. With only 3 Warrior squads (basically the only way you're damaging enemy infantry), you aren't throwing out much damage. The Immortals can help, but not by much, as they can't get too close, and there aren't any Warriors to block for them.
What I've found is that dropping Pariahs makes Necron infantry forces a lot more balanced. With the extra 4 pop, you can't bring many Immortals, but your tanking power goes way up:
12 pop - 4 Warriors
9 pop - 3 Flayed Ones
4 pop - 2 Immortals
With this setup, you not only have a lot more blocking for your Warriors, but also a lot more firepower. The extra 8 Warriors allows you to also spread your attack line a little better, which allows your Immortals to get in a lot closer. The only disadvantage is the difficulty in approaching targets, as Warriors have such horrible range that they tend to trip around one another at what other races would consider point-blank range.
Pariahs can swing their little sticks all day long and get next to nothing done. Pariahs can no longer reinforce like they could, so their ability to tank also pales in comparison to a Flayed One squad that is receiving +Monolith bonus health. There's not much of an advantage in the previous build in comparison to this one. I've gotten to where I only build Pariahs if I need a strike force to hit an isolated group, or take down a greater daemon or other Relic unit.
However, any strategy is going to require you to funnel the enemy directly in front of you. If an enemy (especially melee) gets on your flank - or worse, behind you - then you might as well kiss your Warriors goodbye. This can be very hard in open maps. In such a case, I'd recommend prayer, and maybe switching out some Flayed Ones for more Immortals, which will hopefully have enough range to counter formation splits.
I'm no expert -- but build moar wraiths, maybe?I can't even get near Fleet of Foot without wanting to hit someone.
Make his teleport uncharged when he gets built the first time. (It's necessary for it to be charged subsequent times to prevent camping on rez.)I'd say decrease the Lord cost in T1 to 125, if you even want to change anything.
Alternatively, make him require the artefact and reduce the cost of both significantly, with the energy saving going to more infantry for the necron who actually tries to build a mixed army.
Teleports + early build just make him way too good as an early harasser, to the point where it's really hard to see a circumstance where he won't pay for himself in the early game at his current cost.
Wraiths do jack shit past T1/T2 except for detection
You expect a 2 pop single unit to be of any help against eldar in T3/T4
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