SHUT UP ABOUT US BEING NOOBS PEOPLE!Wat.I don't even play Necrons
Ok, lets ignore that for a second.
Flashing gens? K, no prob.
Give me then flashing LP's for 70/50 and I'm cool with the idea.
SHUT UP ABOUT US BEING NOOBS PEOPLE!Wat.I don't even play Necrons
Ok, lets ignore that for a second.
Flashing gens? K, no prob.
Give me then flashing LP's for 70/50 and I'm cool with the idea.
yes i am.and thats why i dont play ork in SS and DC - because i feel like cheating the ork playstyle. DC and SS orks are a joke from a fan-point of fiew.LOL@Moschboy ork fanboy
well, i really dont know what you are wasting your power on, but 500 energy for a gen lategame really isnt much of a problem. i mean, if you are SOMEWHAT competent and dont have to rebuild your army every 5 minutes, what the f* do you spend your energy on to be unable to afford 500 energy for a gen? and build time? well, 1 scarab will be free anyway lategame. additionally, there are the termo plasmagens on many big maps you can build to boost your income -and they dont even suffer from stacking build time.300 income for Necrons lategame means like 20 gens (with upgrades). That's 500 power cost for the last gen(20th) and 44 times build time or near 2000 seconds that's like half an hour.
i play all the races.granted, i dont play ork and necron competively, but i play all races in team games. and you? you think your arguments are valid after you say " hey, but i dont even play the race..."My race?! I don't even play Necrons
i dont know, but dont you have some system when placing your gens? you know, left to right, something like that? oh, sorry.... you dont even play necrons to start with.The decay issue is only solved if you delete ALL your gens and start rebuilding from scratch. If you do that you lose the game. Since the gens have longer buildtimes it also means they are in different states of decay. This just isn't working right.
why do you think they have half the eco?? and when talking about warriors, lets start with the fact that the starting squad is FREE to begin with.... hmmm, maybe you overlooked this when NOT playing the race??The point was that when comparing unit costs you have to double the Necron power cost to be fair (since they have half the economy in mid game).
yes, lategame this is pretty normal...maybe play the race??Like the ones who talked about 300 power income in late game (20 upgraded gens LOL). Or yourself when talking about decay not affecting Necrons.
honestly, whats the point of giving advices or making suggestions if you dont have any actual experience with playing the race - or, more importantly, with playing half decent games.
Just to add -you know that there are 4 lights on the gens that change colour from green to red? Indicating the decay? You can use that to quickly spot those gens that should be deleted and then -rebuilt.
That which does not kill us, makes us stranger.
I'll reiterate that I don't have a problem with Necron economy, late-game. In my experience, the only time I'm truly hurting for resources is when I've been pressured the entire game, and am having a hard time trying to keep my units up, just to defend myself. This typically only happens in team games - at least for me.
For as long as I've played Necrons, I've never thought about it, but do Monoliths add an energy income when they're built? How about when they tier? I'm fairly certain it's +10, but I might be imagining things. I can't believe I never thought about it.
If you've ever gotten near 20 generators, you know that if you queue up three generators to be built, by the time the third is completed, the first of those three will already be decayed. To me, that's more ridiculous than the construction time, which is probably far too long to begin with.
Once again, it's not a major concern to me, but it would be nice if the construction time for generators suddenly shot up in scaling at a certain generator, but capped. I know generator number 30 is certainly not necessary or feasible, but the very idea of how long it takes to build it is certainly laughable.
Sometimes, I just assume use my Scarabs to spam Summoning Cores across the map to block off areas. It'd be a more productive use of their time, if the game has become drawn out and defensive (which I don't think is prudent for a T4 Necron, but anyway.)
As mentioned before, the exponentially-increasing construction times (and to a lesser extent, the linearly increasing cost) for generators make that unfeasable. Even with only 10 generators out, deleting & replacing the first generator to decay would take 4 1/2 minutes and cost 225 power, leaving you with only 9 functional generators for that time being.Originally Posted by The_nuketrooper
Furthermore, as generators under construction count against you in terms of cost and build time for the next, replacing the next generator to decay would still take 4 1/2 minutes, cost 225, and deprive you of yet another generator for that duration.
As the number of generators you have out increases, the cost and time you need to spend to replace decayed generators gets worse.
******҉ = StrReverse()Originally Posted by cfoley
And how long would it take a replaced generator to pay off its own build cost?
...Only problem with NW is that first crucial upgrade is not efficient enough. A drop in cost or build time would resolve it.
As for the rest of cron, the Artifiact, some NL abilities and second mono are overpriced slightly.
Beyond that there is nothing wrong with cron, don’t overcomplicate things.
When you lose/delete the generator the price/time for a new one goes down. Isn't that true? I am pretty sure it is but I will lab it now.
Edit -probably misunderstood the post . Anyway -the price drops and you get proportional ammount of power back. To make replacement of generators worthwhile one may need to delete them in "batches". Still I am yet to find myself in need to do that with the crons.
Last edited by The_nuketrooper; 7th Nov 08 at 5:08 PM.
man ffs, do you seriously know how much energy crons have to invest in building gens to get a decent income?
To just get 10 gens, thats an investment of 1675 power and a hell of a long time. 500 energy late game IS a problem when you don't have any power late game because you spend ALL of it building gens and doing researches/upgrades/techs that cost in the vicinity from 500-1000 power.
I mean, yea sure, crons are fine if someone doesn't attack you, at all, for 40 minutes so you can get your +15 gens up and running.
How the hell are the necrons supposed to find the power to destroy/rebuild gens to prevent decay when they already spent something like 1600 power to get a decent amount of gens and that you will be rebuilding the last gen, which will take like 10 or so minutes and something like 400 power.
When I was posting yesterday I was just playing crons against an easy opponent to see how their economy realistically went into T4, with 4 scarabs constantly building gens and an extra 2 monoliths to get the bonus's on FO/NL. Against an easy opponent you only get attacked by like one squad
I always BARELY had enough power to get into T4, I only managed to get 3 reinforced squads of FO, 1 reinforced squads of pariahs, 3 reinforced squads of NW, 3TS and an NL with shroud/lightning/veil in around 30 minutes (not all at once btw). So unless you guys think that that such a small army would keep you alive for above 30 minutes, you really have to either kill your economy or kill your army
Killing gen's in patches in is even worse, because then you have to spend more energy and more time to get them back.
Last edited by PandaMine; 7th Nov 08 at 6:30 PM.
3 reinforced squads of Pariahs?!?!?!
I hope that was a mistake.
-It's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end (Douglas Adams)-
-Make something idiot proof and nature will create a better idiot.-
-Me fail English? That's unpossible!-
Yeah may bad, I just ment 1 (edit it now)
I always have barely enough resources to get into T4 because of all the constant fighting. I've always thought the generator decay issue was for games lasting well beyond T4.I always BARELY had enough power to get into T4, I only managed to get 3 reinforced squads of FO, 1 reinforced squads of pariahs, 3 reinforced squads of NW, 3TS and an NL with shroud/lightning/veil in around 30 minutes (not all at once btw). So unless you guys think that that such a small army would keep you alive for above 30 minutes, you really have to either kill your economy or kill your army
Originally Posted by chelovek_veliki
Deleting a completed generator will return 3*(n-1) power, where n is the number of generators you have out at time of deletion. At 10 generators, that's 27 power returned.Originally Posted by The_nuketrooper
The build cost of a generator is 25n power, and the build time is 45*1.22^n seconds. Since you just deleted one generator, you are back to 9 generators Thus the build time is 45*1.22^9, approximately equal to 270 seconds (4.5 minutes), and the build cost is 25*9 = 225 power. Even factoring in the return from deleting the generator (changing the net cost to 22n+3), you still need to spend 198 power and go without the output of that generator for the duration.
Oh my bad -deleting (let's say) 5 gens so you can start rebuilding from <200 is ofcourse more expensive and time-consuming than deleting a gen ,then raplacing it ,then deleting another ,than replacing it ,and so on ,every one of which costs over 200 and build for the same time as the one before it
Crons with 10 generators get +110 ,10 gens and 1st econ upgrade = +137 . How that is low -I don't really know. (btw the described "small" army+ 2 spare and upgraded hqs ammounts to over 4500-5000 power and 22/6 cap )
Buildings busy with upgrades ? Right - the summoning core has the incredible selection of 3 upgrades, one of which is 75, the others - 200 . Even combined they don't make 500
Generators have 2 - 350 and 550 and energy core has the the essence of the c'tan which is 750.
The only things "in the vicinity from 500-1000 power" are : 2nd global power upgrade (1 time only) , essence of tEh C'tan (1 time only) ,3rd HQ (er..1 time only ,unless you manage to lose it )and the restored monolith.
Decay may hit you theoretically in prolonged team games. I personally think it hits the other races somewhat equally. True -the others can delete and then rebuild the generators,which provide them with secondary resource. But they cannot do so with the listening posts ,which provide the primary resource,unless somebody decaptures the point.
@Lancer -situation where you would like to delete a gen is when it is so decayed ,that it is economically feasible to destroy it in order to get a fresh one with maximum output. Deleting gen that makes 8 in order to get a new that gives 10 isn't profitable. Deleting generator that produces 4 in order to get a new one ,which provides you with 10 is profitable. In the long term you will get more benefits of that new gen,despite spending some time with lower income. It is situation-dependant.
Last edited by The_nuketrooper; 8th Nov 08 at 12:27 AM.
Nuketrooper, you have to look at the bigger picture
+137 isn't low, spending 1000+ power to get that +137 is low. Its not that fact that crons don't get a high income, its the fact that they have to pay a shitload to get that high income, which is why when I play them I always find myself scrapped for cash
With the other races, capping strategic points is FREE, putting LP1's on the strategic points cost 100 req for most races, improving econ and paying itself off for most races in 75 seconds, and the first upgrade in 3 minutes.
On the other hand, when Necrons build a gen in late game, it pays itself off often in 10-20 minutes (if not more) and a lot of time.
This is wrong however, becauseDecay may hit you theoretically in prolonged team games. I personally think it hits the other races somewhat equally. True -the others can delete and then rebuild the generators,which provide them with secondary resource. But they cannot do so with the listening posts ,which provide the primary resource,unless somebody decaptures the point.
1. The ENTIRE necron economy gets decayed, instead of just req for the other races
2. Taking into account what I just said previous paragraph, other races pay off the economy a lot better then crons
3. Even with LP decay, it is a lot easier to get +200 req (with around 7/8 lp's and upgrades) then it is to get something like 150 power with crons. Capturing points is free, building LP pays itself off in 75 seconds, another upgrade 3 minutes. How much do gens pay themselves off in?
4. It is practically unfeasible for necrons to deal with gen decay
If i build more than about 6 gens by the time i hit T2 i dont have the rescources to build an army. lol
You can quite easily spend all your power on getting more power.
The_$h0gun - Exactly, because the beard = the law.
Ok, on how many maps can you capture 7-8 strategic points ,without already winning the game? Second - short of req = no units, doesn't matter how much power you have. Third - upgraded listening posts may take between 3-6-7 minutes to pay for themselves,depending on the econ upgrades and the upgrade level(lp2/lp3). The reason why necron generators repay the investment more slowly is the crons can get their builders and basic infantry squads (in t2.5 even their more advanced infantry) for free.
Hm I will have to look at the DC 1.2 to SS change log to see how the necron economy turned from ustopable sekksmashin into a pile of (s)crap
Last edited by The_nuketrooper; 8th Nov 08 at 7:34 AM.
Im talking about T4, where it isn't uncommon to have more then 5 LP's captured
EDIT: Crons economy in T1/T2 isn't that bad, (it was imba in DC not because of the economy itself but because of things like Wraith spam and FO) but the fact that you start with less power, the global power upgrades are more expensive and give less returns, you are forced to make multiple monoliths to tier up, monoliths themselves cost a lot more power and energy, research in the energy core has increased in power and the increase in build time and cost to gens, it all adds up.
Hell the economy in DC in T4 probably wasn't so different compared to SS, the difference is that in SS its a lot harder to get to T4 and in DC no one survived against crons in T4. In SS you have to spend like 1000-2000 power to get a decent economy and to tech, in DC it was probably half that
Last edited by PandaMine; 8th Nov 08 at 6:47 PM.
Gens for all races decay too.1. The ENTIRE necron economy gets decayed, instead of just req for the other races
Except they can rebuild gens without any trouble
Very different for crons
thing is though, when strategic points / relics / criticals (crits decay right?...) decay, they stay that way, cant rebuild a LP to fix the problem
PandaMine, the fact that you said DC crons were imba not because of imba is juat bullshit, the economy was unstoppable.
Arcinatus, they can renew if it was decapped, but it is unlikely your enemy to decap it just for you to cap it again. So yeah finnish the game fast don't get into a deep decay.
Man can you learn to read, I said the DC economy in T4 and I repeat again T4 was not imba
Can you please stop quoting me out of contextHell the economy in DC in T4 probably wasn't so different compared to SS, the difference is that in SS its a lot harder to get to T4 and in DC no one survived against crons in T4. In SS you have to spend like 1000-2000 power to get a decent economy and to tech, in DC it was probably half that
yes, but the necron race is/was/whatever damn friggin strong in tier 4.Man can you learn to read, I said the DC economy in T4 and I repeat again T4 was not imba
this only requires an additional amount of skill from the necron player side. where is the problem?? sure, in DC necron didnt need any skill at all to be played. now in SS they actually must be played good in order to compete. i really cant see a problem with this. necons compete with every other race in the game as long as the player knows what he is doing. what exactly is your problem with that "change"?Hell the economy in DC in T4 probably wasn't so different compared to SS, the difference is that in SS its a lot harder to get to T4 and in DC no one survived against crons in T4. In SS you have to spend like 1000-2000 power to get a decent economy and to tech, in DC it was probably half that
All this talk about power decay, is way wide of the mark, it does not properly kick in till you have been playing for quite a while.
As cron you get around 10 or 11 gens as you work your way up to tier 4, then once your settled in tier 4 your next upgrade is usually a 2nd monolith, as it allows you to produce more quickly, it also provides 10 power and does not decay, at this point in the game with the power upgrades, additional monoliths etc, your economy should be in a perfectly acceptable place, by the time proper decay set's in.
Other races get power decay too, and they also get req decay, which cannot be fixed unless someone decaps your point, so can we just move the whole topic away from something that is a total non issue in 1 v 1 because games never last that long and a total non issue in big team games, because of slag gens and the fact that once you get to tier 4 you will continue to improve your power grid via additional monoliths, and global upgrades and this allied to those 10 or so gens, even if they are decaying will give you ample power to continue to expland the grid if you need too.
OK because your skulls are dense I'll explain slowly.
When I said I don't play Necrons I meant I am not a Necron fanboy that plays them almost exclusively. I don't like them because they are weak and not complex (newbie). I get them with random occasionally or just for fun or RP.
Grimdark, I won't say you don't have a point there. It's just that Points do change hands during a game and Necron gens aren't replaceable as other races. Look at it this way. Any race can delete a gen that it payed 135 (or 150 or 165) for and get back 10% of that and rebuild a new gen for same cost and more importantly same build-time AND you get 50 pow GIFT on completion. Necrons get 3 pow back per gen and have to pay 25. So if he has 20 gens he gets 60 back and has to pay 500. or at 10 it's 250-30. 220 pow for Necrons is worth about double that in req for other races so decay really kills them dead. And on top of that is the build-time. IT'S HUGE! 30 minutes to build a gen is not funny. That's why flashing should be restricted to gens and I don't mind if all races get flashing gens. I think it was better before decay was inflicted on gens at all. Also think of the Necron description as a never ending tide that can't be stopped. As it is Necrons are the opposite. Hold them for long enough and their batteries run dry. Not even energizer bunnies save them
MoschBoy, you fail. Your arguments fit a FFA at best not a tough team game. If you pay 500 for a gen that means 8.33 minutes before it even start making a profit, plus 31 minutes build-time that is... Oh and if you deleted a decayed gen (+4) that means you lost 720 more pow income total during that half hour.
And your comment on the gens, left to right amazing. You do understand that order doesn't matter for costs. The new ones cost according to how many are around already, not according to the last gen you destroyed. Not to mention that building all your gens in one place left to right and so on means you can be raped easily by a raid.
At least you admit you're a fanboy. Go back to not playing orks.
It's obvious here who hasn't played the Necrons and so I am fed up with this thread.
My only suggestion was +4 range to first upgrade of NW anyway. And a deal with decay.
PS: BTW, I'm fairly sure the Necron generator lights anim was broken (it was fixed in the bugfix mod, not sure if Relic fixed it) not that it matters, just a funny thing.
Last edited by simanos; 9th Nov 08 at 5:04 PM.
Whats wrong with the generator lights for crons?
Man I just played a game where I got both my economy and army raped with equal map control by an opposing eldar player.
The Necron economy is not good because YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR IT VERY DEARLY. How much does it cost a race to get 4-6 gens up and running? 600 - 900 req. How much does it cost for a race to capture points? Nothing. How much does it cost for an LP1? Usually 100/75. How much req do they get in return? About 12 on average.
So can people please explain to me, how the hell a great economy requires you to pay 200+ for each generator, along with a hell of a long amount of time is a great economy?
Crons were imba in DC because every single unit they have in T1/T2 because every unit they produced covered their cost to what they do way too easily. Wraiths, only costing 65, could kill multiple ranged fully req'd FW squads which would cost 400-500 req. Necron Warriors, which were free, had a ridiculous amount of HP for T1/T2, meaning they could even tank against 2 or 3 squads at the time. NL only costs 150, for a lot of other races its a lot more. You only need to fully req'd FO (which is the first time that crons started using money, however because they saved in the other areas they would have a surplus) to start reaking havoc in anyones base.
There is a very BIG difference between having a fantastic economy and having units that pay for themselves way too much. In the crons case, their units were so god damn cheap in T1/T2 for what they did that they always had a surplus of power simply because they didn't SPEND a lot of it.
There is very little difference in the economy in T1/T2 between SS 1.2 and DC 1.2. The actual difference is that every single unit in SS 1.2 available in T1/T2 is a hell of a lot weaker, because of this they would die (pending whether or not you have summoning at this point) or you would be forced to get more units, which either does cost you power (wraith/FO) or a hell of a long time in the case of Warriors, which does end up killing your tech.
Wan't to back up what you are saying about crons in T4? Why don't you actually play a game, with Crons in DC 1.2, wait till both races get to T4 (don't harras eachother), get relics if you wan't, and I will garuntee you if played well almost any race (apart from possibly Chaos) can defeat Crons in T4.
I do not have problems with the Crons economy in T1/T2, thats fine, because you actually have to PAY for you're units in T1/T2. The problem is that in T3/T4, the difference between DC and SS is vast. In DC the upgrades to power were a lot cheaper (and gave better bonuses), the research's were not that expensive, gens gave more power and the time difference in building gens was huge. The other races in this situation get around double the income you do. Especially when you get your second monolith, it takes you like 10 minutes to get a single gen up, thats pathetic. When decay starts getting in, its like impossible to get over +200 because you will lose more power then you can build.
People need to realise where the problem lies and not just blame it on the first thing they see, problem in DC was that wraiths, which cost 65 could kill squads that cost 500. NL, which cost 150, had TP and exceptionally high damage to building_low meant he could base bash better then almost any other commander. Now he has the lowest melee damage out of any main commander apart from possibly Farseer or TC unupgraded (and there are no upgrades to improve NL's damage). FO's in DC had 50% chance to revive and did like double the damage to buildings, yet again this got nerfed in SS. We had the bugged lightning field, which insta gibbed squads as well
This is exactly the problem. Necron were imba in DC. They were nerfed and nerfed and then SS came out and they were nerfed again. But they were already hated from the start so people continue hating them now. In TT they are hated too from what I gather. This has made it possible for Necrons in SS to suck and almost no one to care.Originally Posted by FanBoy
"This only requires an additional amount of skill" is a stupid excuse. It can be used for any nerf on any unit of any race. Let's be sane and admit that Necrons do suck. Top players don't use them do they?
The problem is the Necron race is the most unfinished and stupid illogical race in DoW. Probably in TT too I guess. Even right away one can notice that for instance Immortals are supposed to be rarer than NW. They are the favored of the C'tan:
"Those favored Necrontyr who were among the first to give up their flesh and embrace the metal were rewarded by being Immortals. They are more durable, heavy variants of the Warrior and they wield Gauss Blasters, calibrated for maximum effectiveness against infantry. Immortals are fully capable of taking down vehicles with their Gauss weapons as well."
Let's forget the anti-inf thing (balance) and think about how a NW squad costs 3 pop and an Immortal squad 2 pop. For 6 pop you can get 16 NW or 15 Immortals. They both cost 35 power and lets not get into reinforce and build-times. Then the Immortal has 450 hitpoints while the NW has 530/580/870.
They should have at least doubled up Immortal units. Cost 70 with 900 hitpoints and near double dps (the battlecruiser effect is minor but you can adjust for it too if you must). Then the ratio of Immortals to NW would look more logical. NW squads should propbably cost 2 pop and have 2-6 (start-max) members and Immortals cost 3 pop and have 2-4 members (the doubled ones).
Balance-wise this wouldn't change much. I just mention this because it highlights how LITTLE thought was put in the Necron faction. The more you investigate it the more apparent it is they are half a race. No squad leaders, few researches, 1 resource, etc etc...
PS: A fun idea would be for FO to be able to bury themselves in the ground and become infiltrated.
Necrons are not supposed to have many units or researches, thats one of their weakness's and is one of the themes about the race. The TT version of Necrons is fine, and the people that wine about Necrons in TT wine because the verse them in head on battles which is necrons strongest strength (same reason why people wine that DE in TT are shit because they do head on battles with DE). People just hate necrons because they don't know how to kill them properly. Necrons skill is supposed to be in the decisions you make about their economy, which is very polarized (either incredibly powerful or incredibly weak). In TT a simple decision means life or death with necrons, and there is a lot of prediction because all production is tied up in a single building, tech or build at the wrong time and you pay for it
In any regard, the race is badly implemented in DoW
The only race that is currently and properly imbalanced in DoW is Eldar, other races like Tau and DE comp players just use exploits (jetbike spam ftw) which relic hasn't bothered fixing yet. On the other hand, Eldars units have way too many HP for a race that is classed to be fragile (I mean have a look at fragons) as well as having units that are the strongest in every class
and you dont seem to understand that there are players who actually have a system building their structures. because thats all i have said - you complained about NOT knowing which generator is depleated, and i told you, that using a system when building them (like from left to right) will help you identify and manage those decaied gens. however, your stupidity failst to notice that - even after someone posted about the "red lights" - which are also quite helpful.And your comment on the gens, left to right amazing. You do understand that order doesn't matter for costs.
you know what? bevore you continue your wannabe bashing of me, i want you to post a replay where this really becomes a problem; and i can tell you 1 thing: this wont happen, because
1. i am almost 100% sure you wont get a game where decay becomes a problem.
2. i am also almost 100% sure that i can explain all your problems with playing necrons based on your skill, or, more likely, on your LACK of skill with the race.
see, here starts the problem : a medicore eldar player will rape any necron who isnt really good. and sorry, i seriously doubt you fall under that category. taking eldar for balance reasoning is a joke because eldar is stupidly OP in the right hands.Man I just played a game where I got both my economy and army raped with equal map control by an opposing eldar player.
No I am saying that the eldar I versed, we purposely did not harass eachother until T4. Eldar had a much better economy, and teched a lot more. By T4 eldar had around +10000 req and +45000 power, I had +5000 power.
I realise when a gen decays you get red lights (it happens for every god damn race), what is your point?. Could you please explain why everyone, except for you and slayer, agrees that in SS necrons by far are not a top pick, in fact I would go as far to say they are the lowest pick.and you dont seem to understand that there are players who actually have a system building their structures. because thats all i have said - you complained about NOT knowing which generator is depleated, and i told you, that using a system when building them (like from left to right) will help you identify and manage those decaied gens. however, your stupidity failst to notice that - even after someone posted about the "red lights" - which are also quite helpful.
Can you also please point out and tell me where I said that I didn't know which gen is depleted?
Also it is a very well known fact that crons are by far the noobiest friendly race to play, you don't need skill to play crons. Necrons do not compete at all, almost every person posting in this thread has not shown any substantial arguments or replays proving that crons can be played effectively against any decent player
this was the other dude.Can you also please point out and tell me where I said that I didn't know which gen is depleted?
there are more ppl telling you that necrons are compatible, especially in team games and game beyond tier 4, not just me and slayer. i mean, sparty brought my thoughts about the ppl complaining here to a good comclusion - just go 1, 2 pages back and read his comment....Could you please explain why everyone, except for you and slayer, agrees that in SS necrons by far are not a top pick, in fact I would go as far to say they are the lowest pick.
There is you and slayer
That is about it
I agree crons are not top pick, and in some cases a bit underpowered.
I suggested that NW need a slight buff(range or HP) at T3 or T4. I was merely saying that finally in SS their econ is no longer the imba DC econ, and should be kept that way.
If you read my earlier post, Necron economy was not imbalanced in DC, it was the fact that all of crons units/researches/upgrades cost nothing in T1/T2 especially for what ability they provided.
Crons economy SEEMED imbalanced because they practically never spent any power in earlier tiers. Warriors were free, wraiths were 65, NL was 150, core is 200 (to tier up), awakened monolith was cheaper at 300. Everything about crons in T1/T2 was either cheaper/free or was a lot more powerful then in SS. The actual economy (i.e. how much power you get) between SS 1.2 and DC 1.2 is minimal if non-existant. Its only in T3/T4 that crons economy in SS starts going down the drain because of ridiculous build times, almost every tech increased in price, units in T1/T2 usefulness was cut dramatically, power researches give a lot less (and cost a lot more) is where you REALLY start feeling the pain, but mainly and most of all the RIDICULOUS build times. I totally agree with Simanos, the formula for build times was changed in SS, and they build a hell of a lot slower in SS then they do in DC. The difference in earlier tiers is like 10-20 secs which isn't too much, but in later tiers when you are spending more then 5 minutes to a build a gen, things are getting kinda stupid.
Its almost impossible to get over +200 power in any cron game, you would be lucky to get +150 in any normal game which barely cuts it, as numerous other people have said, they are always short of power with crons in T3/T4 and that is not normal especially when your scarabs are spending 24/7 building gens when they could go around capping LP's to deny the opponents economy using necron summoning (or being used as free detectors)
panda, i suggest you read the comments on your posts of the more senior members.
Yes I have
Only issues he has is buffing Necrons HP to 1k per squad member, he was fine with almost all other suggestions
Thinks that necrons are playable however agreed that the economy for crons in SS 1.2 in T3/T3 was reduced to garbage
Earlier on he said he had problems with crons economy, later on he said its fine. Warriors need a buff in HP/range and possibly some other units
Crons are totally borked, economy system and race design is totally screwed
Agrees that Crons in T3/T4 where never powerful apart from DC vanilla, and I agree with him where he said that no one challenged crons power in T3/T4 in DC simply because no one survived against crons that long
Agrees crons that are in need for buffs both to the economy and warriors
Skeptical about buff to crons in general, however agrees warriors needs a buff and later commented that he also always finds himself out of power playing crons because all of the power is spent on gens
Also said that crons are in need of a buff, and agreed that they were never the powerhouse in T3/T4 apart from vanilla DC with res orb
Said that the crons are fine and accused people of not knowing how to play them properly
Agreed that crons needed buffs to help their economy
I know what other people have said, I am not blind. The only people that disagree specifically with what I am saying (apart from the few random posters that only posted once or twice in the thread) are you, mochboy, KotR about the warrior health, Gannadene to some point about the crons economy and Xanthian saying I do not know how to play crons properly
Something tells me you don't play Necrons, with everything you forgot. Warriors were free? I have yet to see a Necron who got by with unreinforced warrior squads. NL was 175, minor nitpick there. Disruption fields was 200, which you somehow forgot about. Flayed ones at 120, which you also forgot. And let's not forget that for say a +90 eco, you would end up spending around 550ish power... You also forgot the archive which is 150 if you decide to get it, and the cost of it's artifacts. You would also end up spending 100-150 power on obelisks. Not much, but it's there.Crons economy SEEMED imbalanced because they practically never spent any power in earlier tiers. Warriors were free, wraiths were 65, NL was 150, core is 200 (to tier up), awakened monolith was cheaper at 300.
To say Necrons spent almost no power in DC t1 is extremely ignorant. The only things you included were the bare minimum for getting to t2, with wraiths thrown in. You also said they spent almost no power in earlier tiers, which leads me to believe you think they spend little power in t2. Which is very, very untrue. 205 for a full immortal squad, 250 for the gsc, 150 for phylacetery (Sp?), 250 for either of the vehicles which was a very steep cost, and another 200 for moar disruption fields. There was much less to spend on in t2, but every thing in it short of wraiths with wraithflight was hella expensive.
The only way Necrons didn't cost much in the first two tiers was if you fast teched to t3/t4... and necrons didn't really do that, considering t3 consisted of a single elite and an expensive anti-tank vehicle.
You forgetting that Crons had no rax at all? Upgrades where cheaper, it was a common tactic to get 3/4 unreinforced NW in DC 1.2 before you tiered for FO.
I said that the cron units either cost very little OR where way too much power for what were paying for[/b]. Wraiths, for 65 power could take on almost 2 ranged squads, disruption fields, although at 200 power, increased the HP for each Warrior by 100 (iirc) and damage by 33% which is by far the best bonus for an upgrade. FO required power, but for how much power you are spending they were way too powerful, especially considering that you only need 2/3 of the things to tear apart a base (with their res time at 50% as well, and -5 morale for each squad member). Immortals likewise, with their range and fast reinforce time + damage were very powerful for their mere cost of 135/35 (they still are, but as I mentioned before the only unit on crons that are powerful). What was "hella expensive" gave a "hella" lot more bonuses then it should have (why do you think current DF only gives 50 HP per squad member from the previous DF which gave 100 HP, thats double the difference)
I mean seriously compare that to a fully equipped GM squad with leaders, last time I remember that cost something like 700/300 in total, or what other race. Crons do not have to make rax, only have 1 buildings to tech to T2 and another to T3 and another to T4 and the rest are gens. In the schemes of things, they are by far the race that have to pay the least (back in DC). Once everything was researched with archives, you could delete it to get more power back. When you compared to other races in DC, what cost a lot for crons gave them so much of a bonus, and what didn't cost (or cost almost nothing) a lot gave decent bonus.
250 power for vehicles (we are getting into T3 now) is bloody cheap compared to the other races counterparts (often something similar to 100/250).
35 reinforce is CHEAP, almost EVERY cron unit only has 35 reinforce for power, sluggas are equal, only thing on the top of my head that beats that is cultists or GM and some other qwerky units. Obelisks only needed to be upgraded if you were attacked, because unlike other races, there is no benefit (apart from defense) for going above LP1 (which was 25 power, nothing compared to 100 req for most other races)
EDIT: Pariahs also have 50 reinforce, which is the cheapest reinforce cost for any elite squad iirc
I actually said T4 economy was sometimes a problem, but didn't really have an issue with it.
I seem to recall also saying that I used to have issue with the economy until the patch.
Could be imagining things though.
You said that the economy got buffed in the 1.1 patch (both power upgrades cost were reduced) but you were unsure as to whether that was enough
In any case, getting +90 in DC happened at mid/late T2 or into T3. In SS it happens in mid T3 and requires constant scarab gen building 24/7 to get higher
EDIT: In fact iirc, most people didn't have a problem with the amount of power they were getting from the necronomy, but the fact that it was impossible to break/harrass crons economy early game because of turrets/NL/Wraiths/FO being so powerful at the time (and NW and scarabs costing nothing). What also pissed off people so much was that crons had a decent economy with no map control whatsoever (which made it even harder to break in earlier tiers considering how difficult base bashing against crons in DC was)
Last edited by PandaMine; 10th Nov 08 at 3:06 AM.
PandaMine ,WHEN exactly did I say the necron economy was reduced to garbage? I was stating the freaking OPPOSITE thing. Do you even read ? Please, if you like to embarrass yourself ,don't try to drag others with you.
Crons had no rax, therefore they payed the least amount of resources automatically? It's a 100-300 req difference... and personally myself I've never seen someone build four NW squads and then not reinforce them in dc. I don't really see what's stopping you from rushing the necron and killing a squad when only 1 or 2 are out, setting them back a while. Also, a barracks and 2 gens on average would be around what necrons pay for their +90 eco.You forgetting that Crons had no rax at all? Upgrades where cheaper, it was a common tactic to get 3/4 unreinforced NW in DC 1.2 before you tiered for FO.
I never said that dc crons weren't insanely cost efficient. The argument was that you weren't paying much power in t1 and t2, nothing about how good the stuff you were paying for was.I said that the cron units either cost very little OR where way too much power for what were paying for. Wraiths, for 65 power could take on almost 2 ranged squads, disruption fields, although at 200 power, increased the HP for each Warrior by 100 (iirc) and damage by 33% which is by far the best bonus for an upgrade. FO required power, but for how much power you are spending they were way too powerful, especially considering that you only need 2/3 of the things to tear apart a base (with their res time at 50% as well, and -5 morale for each squad member). Immortals likewise, with their range and fast reinforce time + damage were very powerful for their mere cost of 135/35 (they still are, but as I mentioned before the only unit on crons that are powerful). What was "hella expensive" gave a "hella" lot more bonuses then it should have (why do you think current DF only gives 50 HP per squad member from the previous DF which gave 100 HP, thats double the difference)
It was 320/40 for a commisar and 9 gm, I have no idea where the hell you're getting 700/300 from. Every race only needs one building to tech to t2, eldar doesn't even need any. Again, we aren't talking about how effective the stuff you were paying for is...I mean seriously compare that to a fully equipped GM squad with leaders, last time I remember that cost something like 700/300 in total, or what other race. Crons do not have to make rax, only have 1 buildings to tech to T2 and another to T3 and another to T4 and the rest are gens. In the schemes of things, they are by far the race that have to pay the least (back in DC). Once everything was researched with archives, you could delete it to get more power back. When you compared to other races in DC, what cost a lot for crons gave them so much of a bonus, and what didn't cost (or cost almost nothing) a lot gave decent bonus.
No, destroyers and spyders are t2.5, which is for all intents and purposes t2 and you know it. 250 power is hardly cheap, it's about the same as other races. 100 req for a vehicle in addition to the power really isn't a huge deal... it's only 3 sluggas!250 power for vehicles (we are getting into T3 now) is bloody cheap compared to the other races counterparts (often something similar to 100/250).
Other races did not pay NEARLY as much as you suggest for their LP1s. Eldar payed 30, Orks n Chaos payed 40, and the rest payed 50. You're forgetting the 50 req refund. 35 power is admittedly cheap, but everything adds up, and necrons may pay the least, but it certainly wasn't by a large margin. And it wasn't next to no power.35 reinforce is CHEAP, almost EVERY cron unit only has 35 reinforce for power, sluggas are equal, only thing on the top of my head that beats that is cultists or GM and some other qwerky units. Obelisks only needed to be upgraded if you were attacked, because unlike other races, there is no benefit (apart from defense) for going above LP1 (which was 25 power, nothing compared to 100 req for most other races)
I am saying, that the necron economy is reduced to garbage in T3/T4. The problems crons had in DC is that they could free build units without much penalty to their economy, now it has been fixed due to the huge number of nerfs to early game units (FO/Wraiths/NL/Warriors).
In T3/T4, for DC the economy was still good for crons, considering they payed close to nothing in T1/T2, you would have broken the enemy economy so bad and their teching was cheap (especially the power research, gave too much returns for it cost, again the main problems with necrons in DC). However in T3/T4 for crons in DC it is a VERY different story, main problem being Gens build time/power cost giving is insane (giving pathetic returns), the future techs cost an insane amount of power and researches are quite expensive (deciever/nightbringer research's cost 750, I think this is one of the highest). If you didn't get artifacts earlier and waited for the lategame ones (shroud, veil etc etc) that will also cost you.
Basically as a percentage this is how in my opinion the economy is rated (this is not taking into account how cost efficient structures/buildings are)
T1 = 90%
T2 = 80%
T3 = 75%
T4 = 75%
T1 = 80%
T2 = 75%
T3 = 50%
T4 = 45%
@LatiasHm I will have to look at the DC 1.2 to SS change log to see how the necron economy turned from ustopable sekksmashin into a pile of (s)crap
For starters, is there any reason you would refend LP's 1 unless they are decaying? An LP1 pays for itself in 3 minutes, and continues to give more req until decaying starts happening. The issue is that race, in earlier tiers will still have to pay the standard 100 req, which means at the time they are building the LP1 they will have less resources for other things to boom their economy or army
Spyders, for a walker in T2.5, 250 power is cheap. Talos is 100/300, Dread is 170/305, WL is 100/250, killa kan is 190/275. As you can clearly see every walker is more expensive (usually by double) then a spyder.
Ok sorry let me rephrase that, you were paying close to nothing, which meant you can spam 4 FO's and rape anyones base, which was the whole problem in DC. You honestly think that if units that practically cost nothing in T1 or so cost effective you only needed a 1-2 squads, that the player is just gonna sit there and watch his power rise? Why the hell do you think that FO's were spammed so much, hmm maybe it is because that crons spent close to nothing in T1 (as well as having an economy not effected by map control which was pretty strong at the start, but repeating again the economy itself was not imbalanced as people think) that they had the power to do so in the first place .I never said that dc crons weren't insanely cost efficient. The argument was that you weren't paying much power in t1 and t2, nothing about how good the stuff you were paying for was.
Last edited by PandaMine; 10th Nov 08 at 6:31 AM.
Guys, forgetting the argument over whether SS 1.2 Crons can fight worth their cost in tiers 3/4, forgetting whether or not games go that far that decay becomes an issue...
Isn't it without question, that 10 minutes to build a single gen is a ridiculous nerf? It doesn't matter how good a Cron player you are... you will need 10 minutes to build that gen. How does that not screw over the Cron player in an 8-player FFA?
The gen build time basically caps the Cron player below a certain practical power ceiling. Now, that's fine. For the other players, the number of SPs on the map cap their req ceiling. So the question comes down to whether the Cron's effective power ceiling is equivalent to the req ceiling of another race on a large map (which is where this matters, so don't bother saying "but there's only 5-7 SPs you can take (home SPs + contested SPs) on a 1v1 map!").
By the time you get to gen #8 its taking a long time to build. After that it tends to get a bit silly.
To make things easier all the way through you could have the HQ give 10 more power than it currently does. No playing with gen scaling required.
I typically find that the time between gen #1 and gen #6 is my leanest period. The faster i want to get to #6 the less troops i have at the start and if an enemy masses troops i sometimes cannot keep up in any way, shape or form with his mass and get completely steamrollered. I sometimes find myself spending all my available power on more gens in big team games where i am not under much threat of immediate attack.
Thing is, if i pay more for gens to get more warriors or artifacts i have a smaller army, if i pay more for warriors or artifacts i limit my overall economy.
Finding the balance between the two is quite difficult for me.
cheapen the first global, this should do the trick. i find cron eco hard to balance due to its uniquiness. how about connecting build time with with LP number?
Moschboy, SHOW ME where I said I didn't know which gen to delete. Are you reading comprehension challenged or are you not reading my posts at all?
Please show me all these replays of top players dominating SS with Necrons. Who plays Necrons competitively anyway? Name a couple of known players who play Necrons more than 1 in 9 games (randomers).
Last edited by simanos; 10th Nov 08 at 3:19 PM.
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