[SS 1.2] Dais of Destruction

[Geno]

This is more of a request for opinions rather than an actual complaint, but personally I think the Dais has gone from completely unbalanced to the point where it's hardly worth building. I'm all for fixing the Dark Scythe bug, but isn't the vehicle cap of 6 pretty extreme for a unit with such limited utility?

Don't get me wrong here; the Dais still has incredible speed for a relic unit, the forcefield is still useful in keeping friendly units alive, and at the very least the Dark Scythe is still capable of tenderizing enemy infantry within range. But overall, the high cap needed, low DPS and HP relative to other ubers, and generally better alternatives (Ravagers, Talos, RJB spam, etc) tend to make this unit worthless. That's my opinion anyway, but what do you think?

Edit: Corrected spelling mistakes.

[PandaMine]

I actually have to agree on one hand and disagree with the other hand. The thing is, DE T4 is just plain shit apart from warp beasts. They have no disruption, the DPS for every single unit apart from warp beasts is horrible compared to other race equivalents and the HP for every single DE unit is pathetically low (on purpouse ofc since they are supposed to be fragile). Their only strength is speed, which although very deadly in earlier stages in the game doesn't really help in T4 where hit n runs often get you killed with the sheer amount of firepower you find. Whats even worse is that DE has utterly horrible ranged firepower (only other race that has this problem is crons) in T3/T4 compared to races, Scourges just don't cut it

The only saving grace for DE in T3/T4 is dias and warp beasts, yes ravagers are also powerful but they might need a slight buff. If DE didn't rape so hard in T1/T2 with hellions/jetbikes/mandrakes I wouldn't go a second thought without buffing Dias. I however totally agree on one that and that is a 6 pop cap is utterly ridiculous, and yes although the forcefield is nice remember that every other DE unit has crap HP, so it evens out.

I think that if they gave the Dias a small form of disruption and reduce pop cap to 4 would be a good enough buff

[slay2rr]

Dias has 7000hp, also have a range reduction aura of 70%, so overall, So dais actually have 10000 "ranged" hp, which is the same as all other relic, it is very fast and can easily escape melee entrapments, the high cap is probably for the rang reduction aura which plays a large role as a T4 buff for all DE units near dais, and thats why it is very useful as a relic.

Ravagers are actually really good, they are specfic in terms or strictly AV or AI, a bit like SM,CSM pred. but they have very high speed and 5000hp(same as CSM pred), which although not on the high end of T4 tanks is still decent. Talos have pretty good HP as well. In fact most DE vehicles have decent hp, their infantry however is glass cannon all the way(except beast, but remeber they can turn on you if they break).

6 pop, is a bit harsh, but the standard 3 pop for baneblade/landraider is too little due to their range-reduction bonus, so 4 or 5 is okay by me. tau's relic seemingly also take more cap than its worth.

[PandaMine]

Problem is DE are completely shit (in fact probably the worst race) out of all the others in T3/T4. Scourges do crap ranged damage (compared to everything else) and have horrible HP + set up time. Ravagers are nice and fast, Talos (like most walkers) get raped by AV and because of their pathing issues seem to totally get wasted before they manage to damage something (same reason most walkers get raped).

DE's only saving grace in T3/T4 are warp beasts, ravagers and the dias. If it wasn't for those they would be almost unplayable in T3/T4. On the other hand they completely rape in T1/T2, only Tau beating them

[White_Pointer]

DE's only saving grace in T3/T4 are warp beasts, ravagers and the dias. If it wasn't for those they would be almost unplayable in T3/T4.

You're forgetting about their uber late-game abilities including the soul spells. You need to use them when playing DE the same way SoB need to use their faith powers. Use them and you'll find DE's late game to be much more powerful than just using their units the same way as any other race.

White_Pointer

[PandaMine]

Well yeah, their late game spells are powerful, but not as powerful as in T2/T3.

Black heart is still very powerful for moral breakage, rend soul only good for single unsquadded units with abilities, soul storm is way too overpriced considering how little damage it does over time, corrosion is probably the most powerful (and my favourite)

No doubt they are handy, but no handier then in T3. The only difference is that you have an abundance of souls so you should be able to spam them more often. SoB have much higher firepower (5 hw on BSS), much better reinforce time (DE seems to have the worst reinforce time in general compared to other races), the strongest walkers and many other benefits

[Rotlung]

Black heart... you meant Scream of the Damned, right?

And it's called the Dais of Destruction, not Dias... I have no idea where that spelling came from.

Yeah I think reducing the cap cost to 4 would be okay. After all, most of their vehicles are going at 3 or 4 cap, the only exceptions being the RJB and the Raven. They'd be pretty hardpressed for vehicles already.

[PandaMine]

Yeah scream of the damned, the thing is with DE spells in late game, is every spell apart from scream of the damned (which has a horrific CD iirc) only targets 1-2 squads (or units).

When you have 200 Gm smashing down at you, or the screen filled green with orks, lowering the armor of 1 or 2 squads, or slowly killing half the HP off one squad with soulstorm, or ~150 DPS with each ravager isn't going to make much of a difference considering that with the opponents massive firepower and the DE shitty HP and low firepower, you are going to die pretty damn quick.

[mlai]

Actually I've seen DE used to excellent effect, but that was on a large map (FFA) where they have the physical terrain space and breathing room necessary to make the tactical maneuvers that their speed is famous for, in order to isolate segments of one opponent's spread-out army and annihilate it in a heartbeat before the opponent can respond.

However, on a small 1v1 map where the opponent is focusing only on you, and advancing with a steady HWs wall, yeah I can see how DE may have problems if the game actually goes to tier 3/4.

So it's all situational, like all DE. But DoD going down to 4 cap sounds ok. 6 cap is a bit much now that the laser isn't LOL.

[simanos]

I second Riotlung. Please change name of thread! It's Dais not Dias.
My opinion on all Relic units is that they should all cost 0 pop. (The Avatar should then give only +3/+6 or something like that). I want bigger battles.

[Wraith_Lord]

- Cut the pop cost from 6 to 4.

- Increase Dark Scythe damage by 100% to make up for the fact that it's not hitting 5 times. If you can't count, that means that it if it used to do 5000 dmg, and it now does 1000 dmg, then with the change it would do 2000 dmg. That's still less than half of what it did in SS 1.0.

Plz don't add new abilities because that's just stupid. You can't just make up new upgrades/abilities that aren't even related to the unit.

[_McGr3g_]

yup, the fact that the ability was bugged and was hitting 5 times is perfect reason to buff it. can i post in every thread about some unit that was bugged in the past that it needs slight buff, coz when it was heavily bugged it was so much better?
u want it to hit twice? use reckindle rage.

only valid suggestion is pop decrease.

[KotCR]

If you can't count, that means that it if it used to do 5000 dmg, and it now does 1000 dmg, then with the change it would do 2000 dmg.

Which is still too much then; Seems 2000 damage means most Commanders, elite infantry squads, and some vehicles would be insta-gibbed, in addition to regular infantry squads.

[Old Painless]

KotCR your entire army would be dead after 2 x beam with rekindle rage.

NOT fun.

Even doing 200 damage to everything over such a massive area of effect is way imba imo.

If you have 50 enemy units in the AOE thats still TEN THOUSAND DAMAGE for each use. 20k if you count rekindle rage. Barmy.

2 clicks for 20'000 DPS. lol

You want it to do 1000 damage ? seriously ?!?! for 50 units with rekindle rage that would be 100'000 damage !!!!!!

And lets not forget the rediculous ranged damage reduction in a fairly hefty AOE.

Please excuse me but i would like to have my cake and eat it too .........

[Wraith_Lord]

Actually, I just checked the wiki and found out that the original damage was about 300. So buffing it to 600 would make a Rekindle Rage combo (that's 2 hits) the equivalent of a single use from SS 1.0. It is a relic unit afterall.

Anyway if you really don't want it to 1-shot everything in its radius by ANY means, then just leave the ability alone as it is and lower the pop cost.

[Flagg]

200 damage to everything late game is pathetic. Is that what the DAIS does now, 200 damage to all? So it's just a super version of a ravager with a special ability now? Whoopy freaking do...

[PandaMine]

Yeah, LoLBeam doesn't even kill a GM squad (just tried it, puts them down to like 20 HP though).

@Mlai, even in larger maps where DE would have the advantage, whenever they try and hit and run, they hit but they wont run due to the sheer amount of firepower. Even warp beasts get raped really quick before they manage to kill something

[Flagg]

Well from the sounds of it, seems a lot better to invest in two Ravagers, maybe a Talos or two and use your Warp Beasts to take out the enemy relic units.

Every other relic unit has a chance of beating one of the others. What relic unit is the DAIS capable of stopping? None. I think i'd have prefered an ability with the DAIS where everything in its vicinity gets an en-masse invulnerability bonus for a short time through some sort of ability.

[bman3k]

I'm not sure about this, it gives what amounts to a mini machine spirit buff to everything in a decent radium, permanently. Also it will annihilates like all infantry.

[PandaMine]

Ravagers are nice because they are fast, however their DPS is on the low side compared to the other comparable tanks. Dais damage reduction aura is handy (especially against Tau, IG and Eldar) however it only evens out their crappy HP, LoLBeam used once doesn't even kill a GM squad, which means you have to rekindle which also means the enemy squads have to stand there for like ~8 seconds???

They are in most respects quite weak in T4, mainly because of the horrible scaling of their units and their only T3 inf are 2 melee elites.

[Geno]

Fixed the thread title... no idea why I kept spelling it the way I did.

Anyway, I personally don't like the Dark Scythe in general. The idea was simply poorly implemented, since if it does too much damage it becomes obviously overpowered, and if it does too little it becomes a liability. Given that it's impossible to kill anything at full health with the beam (minus workers), often times the Dais is simply soaking up damage while the beam is charging and firing. However, even if it's minutely upgraded to be able to kill normal squads, then that means the Dark Scythe will simply be back to where it was before the patch.

To stay more true to canon, it'd be nice to see the Dais have some sort of "morale immunity" effect, since DE troops that see Vect on the battlefield would be more scared of him than the actual enemy. It'd also be nice to see it with a jump ability since it is based on the Raider chasis. But any of these ideas would change the game far too much from what it is now, and I'm sure other balance issues will pop up. Ultimately, I think a decrease in pop cap is the only feasible solution.

[Mokino]

How about a decrease in pop cap and a bit of a morale boost added to its aura?

[ImmortalChaos]

I'd remove the pop cost altogether (I've been saying it for a while, I don't feel any of the ubers should be taking [or adding] any pop), give it 8k HP and remove its dependence on upgrades to get the HP. Maybe add a bit of damage too; generally it could be a little better in most aspects, but not extremely so.

The beam is fine now, it should just be used to soften things, not rape entire armies.

[Zenny Ark]

Your hinting at the Avatar of Khaine is too obvious Immortal. In my opinion, the Dais vehicle cap should be lowered, same goes for Talos who take up 4 cap, I've had to deal with tougher walkers like dreadnoughts and they cost 3 vehicle cap. A giant mechanical scorpion should be less threatening than that.

[PandaMine]

As it stands though, I find talos to be one of the most powerful walkers. Iirc, Talos out of all of the walkers does the highest overall single target damage, collects souls at a very fast rate and has one of my favourite walker abilities (wildfire). 2/3 talos all doing wildfire at the same time can break the morale and seriously damage (like 3/4 of HP) 4 or 5 squads that are surrounding the talos.

In any case I agree with Geno in saying that beating about the bush for dark scythe will either make it too crappy or too good, the ability itself is too polarized. In itself, putting inf on yellow/red HP isn't so bad, the problem is that DE in T4 have no firepower to finish the squads off, especially seeing as scourge's have a setup up time along with their crappy HP often equals death

[mlai]

This thread has some of the most LOL suggestions even for RN Forum. Making Dais pop 6 to 4 is the only change necessary for it. -300 hps for the entire screen in front of it, able to be casted twice, is an excellent ability for a fast t4 tank. The damage is no longer bugged, but you forget how fast the ability comes out and how far the range is.

The Talos is 1 of the worst walkers in the game not because it can't fight, but because it can't path for shit. Its footprint needs to be changed from rectangle to circle before it can actually do melee damage.

@Mlai, even in larger maps where DE would have the advantage, whenever they try and hit and run, they hit but they wont run due to the sheer amount of firepower. Even warp beasts get raped really quick before they manage to kill something

DE can do pretty well in FFA's when played right. They don't have the imba of full-pop-Barracudas, but their army does pretty well against other players that are busy doing something else because of their speed and dps.

[PandaMine]

Well I have a love hate relationship with the talos

In earlier tiers they are uber, because you are not going to come across pathing problems since there are less squads with less squad size. They also do uber melee damage.

In later tiers, again because of the pathing problem (as I said earlier) I just get 2/3 and wildfire them all at once, works wonders against massed infantry.

I said this before, I am only for buffing pop cap from 6 to 4 because although I admit that DE are pretty shit in T4 (and not that much better then T3), they make up for it with an uber T1 and T2

[War-Reborn]

I think Mlai has the right idea's in a reduction in cap, (i'd say to 3 rather than 4) and i agree with Immortal some small buff's are in order, personally what i'd like to see is the ability to stick a squad on the dais, a la raider.

I like the concept of the raider and putting infantry aboard and have them fire over the side, but in practical terms it's limited as the cost of going for the structures required to get the raider and warriors to stick in it, mean you will probably fall behind in teck if you pursue this option and the unit itself is not strong enough to really make this a worthwhile pursuit most of the time.

Adding this feature would be a small buff to the dais (abit one that costs more money, since you will need to pay for that warrior squad) but it's one i think it needs as the standard guns could use a bit of extra support, and it does bring a cool concept thats not used much at the mo, into the game more.

Only other things i'd do

Talos does need it's pathing fixed, it is very poor in this respect

Raven, should get some dmg/hp enhancement, it's not really very useful at present

[Gannadene]

I think having DE being bad at T4 clashes is pretty accurate. Fluff DE always get in and get out as quickly as possible, and avoid fair fights. Pushing DE to be a good early tier, bad late tier race is fine by me, especially considering how powerful they are early on.

The Dias does need its population reduced. There's really no logic to it. I'd rather have the equivalent Talons.

[Geno]

I think having DE being bad at T4 clashes is pretty accurate. Fluff DE always get in and get out as quickly as possible, and avoid fair fights. Pushing DE to be a good early tier, bad late tier race is fine by me, especially considering how powerful they are early on.

You can't just say "DE avoid fair fights in fluff" and use it as an excuse for them to be bad in T4; considering this is a game and balance is important. Afterall, look at how easily Terminators and Obliterators get out-melee'd by supposedly (fluff-wise) inferior units. Ultimately, I'd rather see DE early game get nerfed and its late game upgraded, although at this point it's really not feasible to change so much.

To be fair though, I think the only major weakness DE have in T4 is infantry. Aside from Warp Beasts, nothing else seems to do much. And even then, it's impossible to keep Warp Beasts in combat longer than a few seconds.

[PandaMine]

The reason why DE are shit in T4 is they lack in firepower compared to other races (by lack I mean a lot, only exception being beast warp packs) and the HP on their units are so low that even if they use speed (which is their advantage) to hit and run their units will most likely be killed before they can even deal any significant damage

[Avatar 720]

You can't just say "DE avoid fair fights in fluff" and use it as an excuse for them to be bad in T4

You could to an extent. DE are based on lightning quick hit and run attacks that leave the enemy picking up the pieces. Basically having to hit T4 implies that you couldn't carry out those attacks and, fluff-wise, you are a shit DE commander. T4 isn't supposed to be good for DE, DE was a bad choice of race too, as all their units are more T1-3ish due to their hit and run tactics, the dais of destruction belongs to Asdrubael (can't spell his weird first name) Vect and is the only one in existance, they had to have it as a relic unit because nothing else can really justify it's need for a relic. I bet you anything that if they had something like a bloodthirster or land raider that would be their relic unit, as it stands in my mind, the Dais was just chosen as a relic unit because there was nothing else.

DE were a bad choice for a DoW1 race, DoW1 concentrates on large extended conflicts (most of the time) and massive battles with huge casualties and losses, DE don't fit the bill at all, they prefer one-sided battles, scavanger skirmishes and ambushes. If they could, they would've had Tyranids instead, but as it stands, they didn't have the ability to implement them.

[Gannadene]

If you're just going to throw fluff out of the window and say "it's a game," you might as well throw table top out the window. While you're at it, you might as well drop all the 40k fluff entirely, keep the art assets and make up whatever you want. Plus, since it's "wrong" to make races weak in T1, or weak in T4, let's just give every race the same exact stats.

[KotCR]

Well it is wrong to make a race weak in T1, seems if you can't fight in T1 you've already lost the game and will never get to your stronger tiers because your opponent will finish it before then.

But a race being slightly weaker in later Tiers is permissible, though should still be avoided if possible.

[Geno]

If you're just going to throw fluff out of the window and say "it's a game," you might as well throw table top out the window. While you're at it, you might as well drop all the 40k fluff entirely, keep the art assets and make up whatever you want. Plus, since it's "wrong" to make races weak in T1, or weak in T4, let's just give every race the same exact stats.

Please don't take my post out of context. If staying true to the source material is that important for you, then you shouldn't even be playing a game that has Kasrkins outgunning Space Marine Tactical Squads, or a Baneblade being taken out by a pair of Predators.

Nowhere did I say you should "throw fluff out the window", nor did I imply every race needed to be the same. Dawn of War is a game, and games need balance. By no means does balance mean you have to butcher fluff. I was merely refering to your statement that DE should be weak in T4 because they "avoid fair fights"; that's a weak argument on its own. Although for the record, I don't even think it's that big of an issue to begin with. As I mentioned in my previous post, the only aspect of DE T4 that I find to be underpowered is when it comes to infantry. Aside from that, I made this thread to address the Dais, and lowering the vehicle cap by a couple of slots certainly doesn't seem like that bad of an idea.

[PwnD]

I agree with the pop cap reduction, but overall I still think that certain races are fruited if the game ever gets to tier 4 - necrons being another that springs to mind.

DE needs to some further troop upgrades in T4 to make them playable - the fact that they are perhaps the strongest in T1 is not a reason to nerf them late game. The Dais is only one part of the equation and it's broken attack in 1.0 merely masked the problem.

[CyberFish]

Ok, three issues here.

1) The weak Dais.

I don't think there's any argument that 6 pop cap is pants-on-head retarded. Drop it to 4. Hell, drop it to 3 and it's still in line with other relic units.

Buffing the damage of the Scythe is not the way forward, since if it can take an infantry squad to 1% health it's useful but kinda weak; while if it can one-shot an infantry squad it's Filthy IMBA - because if it can one-shot a squad, it can one-shot your opponent's entire infantry army. Leave the Scythe damage how it is, it's still useful.

Sane alternatives include buffing the DPS, which would be very welcome, buffing the damage reduction field, which would be even MORE welcome giving how fragile DE are, or giving it other shiny abilities - like knockback on the Scythe, or a morale-boost aura - which is a nice idea but probably a bad choice for resolving a balance problem.

I say buff the damage by some amount and improve the defense field by maybe 5 or 10%. I'd also suggest giving it Screaming Jets, because while it IS an extra ability it's not likely to break the balance.

2) Weak DE tier 4. No real argument about this one. Warp Beasts are the only useful thing they have at this stage. The Talos gets hung up on pathing way too much to make a difference, Scourges die if you so much as look at them, and Wyches are only useful for their combat drug aura by this point in the game.

The Talos at least is easy to fix: Smaller, circular footprint, and it's suddenly useful again.

Scourges could really do with a buff in high tiers. I'm tempted to say give them a range and DPS boost rather than a survivability boost, since that way you can deal damage from comfortably out of range and flee if anything gets close, which is much more DE style than sitting there and taking the return fire. I wonder what they'd be like if they were infiltrated? Heheh. Stupid suggestions aside, Scourges need to scale better into later tiers.

3) DE strong early game. This is a different balance issue for a different topic. Please don't discuss it here, you're just clogging up the useful discussion.

[Mosh4Life]

I agree 100% on the pop reduction from 6 to 4.
Damage is fine as it is.
Didnt gib your enemy? Then rekindle rage and do it again >_>

Why was the Dais 6 pop in the first place anyway. Bugs aside...

Mosh4Life =]

[D-coy]

Do Warriors worth it in late Tiers? I mean DPS wise, not hp wise.

If they do, it might be a good idea to combine their high DPS with the aura of the Dais. This might offset their fragility.

I'm theorycrafting, so please correct me if this isn't a viable strat.

Cheers

[Flagg]

There are still a combination of things you could do with the DAIS to still dish out huge damage. Using the scythe on an area, combined with whatever is supporting the DAIS firing, plus SoulStorm and Acid Rain power is enough to put a serious hurt on troops, but then you are talking about a combination of things to get the maximum effect.

[MoschBoy]

the main problem with DE tier 4 is quite easy:

though DE tier 4 has options to lower an enemy infantry forces HP significally, like acid rain in combination with SS and dias, even those reduced units will rip apart the DE tier 4 infantry which seem to be armoured with paper. especially any kind of disruption (artillery, mines) will completely screw up and tier 4 DE infantry attack- warp beasts are good, yes, but they loose HP fast and they have a tendenzy of being focused on.

solution: make the dias the wavebreaker: give its scythe a knockback, so DE gains a few seconds to profit from their firepower. the right use of the scythe would determine DE tier 4 effectiveness. alternatively the ravens terrorfex range could be increased - which would have a similar effect (but hey, whey easy when i can get a knockback beam?)

[Geno]

I would love to see the Dais' Dark Scythe have a knockback effect, but again it's sort of a drastic change. It definitely would make the Dais a bit less vulnerable while firing the beam, and at the same time allow melee units to close in - but that might cause other balance issues.

Aside from lowering the pop cap, I think increasing DPS by a tiny bit (especially against vehicles and buildings) couldn't hurt. I really don't like the idea of increasing its defensive aura or adding in a morale boost to nearby units, since it makes the DE a bit too reliant on the Dais, and simply hides any other issues the race might have.

[Flagg]

Moche Boy has a damn good idea there. The beam doing a huge knockback at the same time as doing damage would be brilliant for getting those Warp Beasts and Whyches into the thick of it. Hell it would help for any surviving DE warriors to get in nice and close and let off a few terrofex grenades, not to mention any scourges jumping in to finish off what was left.

Geno, I actually dont think DE have any issues other than the DAIS itself, and it's gone form being OP to UP...i mean why the eff can't relic get that right? Other than that, I think DE excell on most tiers, even 3. Whyches are still awesome in T3 and bar T3 CC specialists, will dispatch of any Kasykin, Oblits, Commanders or Terminator squads should they manage to engage them.

[PandaMine]

Thats not gonna change much, Warp Beasts with combat drugs have like 49 movespeed, thats the highest movespeed of any INF in the game. Even if it would implement it, unless you expect warp beasts to take on 5-7 INF squads its not really gonna help

The REAL problem is, that the Warriors T3/T4 damage absolutely blows, scourge is not that much better. This is the DPS for warriors (with soulseeker)

Warrior:
20.9/20.9/20.9/17.1/11.4/11.4/3.8/1.9/1.1/3.8/9.5/3.8/1.9/7.6/3.8/1.0/1/17/22/0.5

Scourge:
21.9/21.9/21.9/21.9/15.4/13.2/4.4/2.2/1.3/4.4/11.0/4.4/2.2/8.8/4.4/2.0/2/20/25/1

Also taking into account Warriors have horrible range (i.e. in T4 they just die before doing any damage) and Scourge's have a set up time as well as horrible HP (320) its not suprising that they are bad as they are in T4. Ill mention this again, yes DE have powerful spells that only target 1 or 2 squads, what is DE going to do with the other 5 or 6 squads? SS damage is so low (over time) that it takes like 20 seconds to kill anything (and it only has enough damage to barely kill a GM), corrosion is nice but then again it will only effect a single squad

They reason why Relic doesn't get it right in balance is they just used all the fluff from W40K and did the RTS as they saw fit, instead of using the structure that was in TT. W40K spent, what like, 30 years balancing the codex around and now its almost perfectly balanced. If Relic used the whole structure of teching, units HP/Damage armor etc etc as it was with TT and did some tweaking (which their has to be because its now realtime) then they would have a hell of a lot less balance issues. Instead they tried to balance things their own way, which ultimately failed

[White_Pointer]

W40K spent, what like, 30 years balancing the codex around and now its almost perfectly balanced.

If you think the TT game is even remotely balanced you are deluding yourself.

White_Pointer

[simanos]

Knockdown sounds cool. Blindness or frag grenade stun may also do.
PandaMine, the TT can't be transfered to an RTS without changes, you're being too hard on Relic. You had points and bought stuff up front. Unless you want to do away with income and bases (then the only option would be to hide from or kill you opponent's troops, no gaining ground) you have to accept new price tags to things. Also you have a new currency called time.

[PandaMine]

TT is unbalanced because people don't have the money to purchase the figurines for more powerful units Thats not an issue in RTS games

I guess I am being a bit hard on relic. I sympathize with them when they first released the game and had massive multiplayer issues because they incorporated their own idea of W40K. What I however don't sympathize with is when they tend to not listen to the community for balance issues. What astounds me is when races like Eldar are incredibly imbalanced for every single DoW release. There are a lot of good suggestions around, if relic at least implemented half of them instead of capping units that people complain about the game would be much more strategic and tactical. Now we just have the exact same builds for every race where people copy eachother, and a lot of redundant units/upgrades. Anyways Im going to stop ranting about this (I only started this rant because I played a mod that tried to make DoW more TT and realised how much more balanced it is). In my opinion, if they made DoW as similar as they could to TT and fiddle around to make it an RTS it would be a hell of a lot more balanced (and simple on their side) instead of having to change everything around

[mlai]

@ Pandamine:

I kept quiet about it for awhile but now you're just repeatedly embarassing yourself.
TT is not the RTS. Fluff is not balance.

Yes, having fluff in the game is cool. But when you keep saying stuff like the tabletop mod is a great balanced RTS, or translating the values of 6-sided dice to a RTS would magically make DOW balanced and deep.... it does nothing but show how noob you are.

Gameplay/content mods are NOT more balanced or deeper than the Relic RTS. They seem more balanced to you because real pro players are not tearing thru them in prize competition and finding all sorts of exploits and insane BOs. A balance mod that fixes all the stupid bugs, and the most blatant balance issues agreed upon by good players... THAT is a mod that is more balanced and deeper than the Relic RTS.

[PandaMine]

No TT is balanced, TT is a strategic game, its RTS without bases hmmkay?

6 sided dice - probability (i.e. when necron warriors have to a chance to respawn when killed). Its how they do chance, such as accuracy and shit like that, whats your point? When a necron unit dies in TT you roll a dice, on a computer it generates a random number?

It's got nothing to do with being noob, why don't you actually PLAY the mods and have a look at them yourself. Im not talking out of my ass here.

You can always fix the most blatant issues, but relic has a trait of doing it very badly. Such as a unit is being abused, we will just move it to T4 and hard cap it, and increase the pop cap to 4 or 5. That was their whole balance strategy in WA, and it hasn't solved half the problems.

TT has a structure that works, for example what Jaimas was explaining about the changes to FotM and the many other major game structure changes haven't really helped. Now almost every unit that isnt Tacs or T4 tanks/ubers have become so specialised that there are now only a couple of viable tactics for each race, apart from Eldar where any strat works. For this reason, as an example, its now impossible to make flamers on assault termies any worth because they changed termies into just a pure ranged specialist, so no matter what changes you do to the flamer no one is going to use it (unless it insta gib squads). Its things like these that if would have not been changed would have caused relic a lot less problems in terms of balance

[MoschBoy]

number of mods made by mail copared to number of mods made by panda.....