New "Direct Fire" Mode. Discussion and Implications.

[akn102991]

"Company of Heroes: Tales of Valor also introduces a new "direct-fire" feature that allows players more tactical control of their units and more strategic options in-game. "

So, I pose to the community (and Relic) What is the 'direct fire' feature?

and second

What are its implications in combat? Will this affect balancing in any way?

[Vretsu]

It probably won't be in multiplayer.

[Raddish]

it will not affect standard balance as it is not going to be involved in standard unranked and ranked gaming.

[kommodore]

I wonder how it will work vs cloaked units, if you know where they were you can just keep firing in the general direction.

[akn102991]

Do you think its not goign to be in multiplayer?

I was thinking that it would be something like in that one ww2 game, Soldiers: Heroes of ww2, where you had direct control of say, the turret of a tank

that would work in multiplayer, just a quicker version of attack ground

the entire quote

"In Company of Heroes: Tales of Valor, we're offering players a ton of rich, new content including more strategic options in single-player and multiplayer," said Tarrnie Williams, general manager, Relic Entertainment. "With fresh new campaigns and multiplayer modes, brand-new units, additional maps and the introduction of the 'direct-fire' feature, we're once again committed to delivering the best in strategic gaming."

[Pyro Paul]

from what i understand from it...
it will be in multiplayer, and most of you are misunderstanding what 'direct fire' is for ToH...


Direct fire mode causes the units to face their Guns the best they can at where ever your cursor is. this is most visable with Tank turrets as the turret will turn to face the cursor and in theory engage targets with in its frame of refrence from that point.

This aurguably gives you the better ability to prioritize targets your self rather than depending on the random chance of the games internal Priority AI which may or may not engage what you where just shooting at.



here is basically a situation where it would come in handy.

you have your M4 Sherman with 76 mm gun. and it is currently chacing down a Ostwind which has been harassing your infantry. the Ostwind has only a sliver of health left and only one more round would send that thing to the scrap heap in the sky when all of a sudden you see 2 Panzer IVs...

as a smart player, you give a move order to stop your Sherman and start microing him backward and changing the facing so that it is pointing at the panzers...

Even though that ostwind which could very well die from that one shot your sherman is ready to shoot, because you gave a move order the 'attack' order was canceled... now the AI automatically disengages the ostwind and turns the turret towards the Panzer IVs because the Panzer IV has a higher priority...

With this, arguably now my tank can shoot targets i want it to shoot While i am microing its movement to survive threats i see.


as i understand it, it is basically a 'Aim in This direction' command which happens independently of the 'Move here' commands.

[Hirmetrium]

I believe Direct Fire is a singleplayer only mechanism, confirmed in one of the interviews, however they pointed out the case might be different for other "multiplayer modes".

I don't think theres any discussion to be had here, besides the fact controlling a tiger ace in the campaign should be AWESOME. And don't you dare critisize the campaign. I already plan to replay the campaign on Dx10. Its great fun replaying.

[kommodore]

So then couldn't direct fire be replaced with a priority target attack, like theres attack, attack move, and then priority attack that locks the unit to attacking the unit you target if its in range, otherwise it will attack others? Because trying to run a Sherman backwards while direct controlling it to target a single unit while managing the rest of your army seems a little complicated, and gimmicky.

Example:

Tell a M8 to priority attack a marder, but going there it runs across PGs, its out of range of the marder so it fires on the PGs, once you get to the marder it prioritizes the marder. It could also have an off button like the camo or hold fire, a cancel button. While this is happening you can manage your rifles aswell.

With direct control you would be stuck microing the M8 and your rifles might get cut down.

[Nanaki]

It might work if theres a mutliplayer gamemode that allows multiple people to control one player/faction, Imagine a 1 vs 1 with 4 people on each team.

[Pyro Paul]

we will have to wait untill further information is released on the matter because it may very well be a 'Priorty attack target' marker or a 'Target things in this area first' ability with just a diffrent name.


when i think 'Direct Fire' i think of pointing your weapons so that you can better fire upon a certian direction. as the tank commander yells out 'Direct your fire on the crest of that hill!' to his crew.... however, 'direct fire' could also mean Direct manual control over firing where you take direct control and fire as from third person (which many have assumed it to mean apparently).

[fneep]

The other two "mini-campaigns" are still a mystery, but we'd be surprised if there wasn't one each for the Americans and British. In keeping with the smaller, more intimate feel Relic are going for, Tales of Valor will also introduce a feature called direct-fire. It's described as a feature "in which a tank's turret...will follow the player's mouse cursor, allowing a tank's turret to move and control independently from the vehicle's path.". Anyone worried this will break the game should know that in singleplayer, you can turn it on and off, and it won't be making its way into multiplayer.

I don't believe Direct Fire will be in multiplayer.

[Xtacc]

If direct-fire (as in target a specific unit) could be used with infantry this could be a great way to micro the sniper.

There is an MG crew, instead of your sniper picking off a guy on the side you can direct-target him to shoot the guy manning the MG.

[akn102991]

thanks for that fneep.

I dont know about yall, but that sounds fuggin awesome!

can't wait to play it.

[YurdleTheTurtle]

Well now we finally know what it is. Good thing its single player only, but I can totally see it being used in future mods perhaps.

[BlackOmne]

The PC Gamer article describes it this way from the reviewer playing the Tiger Ace campaign:

Just as I was getting warmed up with the Tiger's 7.5 cm cannon, the tank's notoriously unreliable machinery broke down, rendering me immobile. While my crew worked to repair the engine, I got to play with an entirely new feature: direct turret control. Toggling direct fire mode, the Tiger's turret tracked my mouse around the screen and fired on command, blasting enemies hoping to capitalize on my moment of weakness.

[Lethal Dosage]

Hmm, sounds interesting, and i'd love to see a skirmish or multiplayer game mode (for all map sizes) which gives each player a tank and crew to use instead of a base and an army, which then each side has to cruise the map and hunt out the enemies armour. It would be a good game type for real teamwork, and i can see some of hte maps fromt he campaigns working real well for it.

Off Topic

with the Tiger's 7.5 cm cannon

Wow, Tiger's have a 7.5cm main gun? I think theres a few Tiger tank Ace's and a lot of internet WW2 nerds that would disagree with that.

By the way, despite the discussion value, isn't this the seconds or third thread on this other than the ToV thread itself?

[bbarcher]

Screw the ToV thread, it is so bloated I don't dare step into anymore.

I'd love a thread of the the different additions to the game from ToV.

This thread is very helpful in that it pinpoints one aspect of ToV and gets it explained. If the huge behemoth of the original ToV thread was useful at all, this thread and other others before it (that were locked) wouldn't have been made.

[Quak0r]

There is an audio interview over at GR.org with Thunder where they also talk about ToV and Direct Fire. The relevant part is at 31:50.

http://www.gamereplays.org/companyof...erview-thunder

[cf_nz]

There's a post on the main Relicnews page that links to an interview with Tim Holman (link), the interview includes the follow:

Avid Company of Heroes multiplayer users may be wondering just how direct-fire could throw off the balance of the game when playing others. But the feature is being kept out of regular multiplayer, although Relic is "experimenting with several direct-fire multiplayer modes."

[BlackOmne]

Wow, Tiger's have a 7.5cm main gun? I think theres a few Tiger tank Ace's and a lot of internet WW2 nerds that would disagree with that.

Lethal,
I was just directly quoting from the article; it wasn't a typo on my part. I noticed the error too, but didn't want to edit what the article said. Obviously, the article's writer, Dan Stapleton, doesn't know that Tigers were equiped with a 8.8cm cannon.

EDIT:
Also, I like your idea for the tank vs tank combat. It would be like a modern-day version of one of the old arcade games, like the tank one for the Atari 2600. Might be fun. But, I would think you would have to add some mechanic where players are required to run over a certain part of the map every so often or guard a certain part, so that a player couldn't waste his opponent's time by simply hiding and running all the time. And you probably would have to look at finding a way to balance Allied armor vs the stronger Axis armor (just imagine playing a sherman against a Tiger).

[Lethal Dosage]

Don't worry BlackOmne, i intended that to be a sarcastic joke, i know it wasn't an error on your part, but more pointing out that the writer is a nit-wit, and attempting to do so in a sourly humorous fashion.

Switching to hypothetical mode, if I were to do something like this Direct-fire game mode i suggested, there would be two game modes, 1 would be an annihilation mode and the other an attack/defend game mode. Both would play like something between an average FPS and CoH's brand of RTS, where you could control 1 tank manually, and within it you can control the crew and the tank, ie. smoke launchers, machineguns, main gun ammunition, etc. as well as the veterancy of each crewman. You would also be able to order various men out to do things like repairs, etc. and possibly even camoflage if the commander has enough vet.

Annihilation mode would pretty much just be running around the map hunting down the enemy tanks, but the flavour would be working in teams to ambush tanks, and protecting a disabled friendly tank while he repairs. With a game which doesn't have respawns, or requires the tank commander to survive to the call-in point to get a new tank, it could prove very interesting, especially as a break from CoH without wanting to go to a totally different game. I'd say your tank choice would be chosen for you on the basis of your rank (for online multiplayer) which will also allow for a large variety of tanks. Online matches would be arranged via an automatch-like system so players/tanks of a similar or equal skill/capabilities would be paired into the same match, and for offline skirmish play and comp-stomps it'd be by the AI difficulty level you'll be versing against (or you'd be able to select the tanks you'd want to verse and you'd get something in that range), so if you go against expert AI (or say against Pershings), you'd get a Tiger or a Jagdpanther (perhaps even a coice as to wether you wanted to get a tank or a tank destroyer).

[Nanaki]

As Flavor, add NPC-controlled infantry squads to each side. Including some armed with AT. The players in each side will have some limited direction of the overall NPC AI (Attack here with Infantry, Defend here with AT, Move HQ Here (If British), Build forward Barracks here, etc) but otherwise the NPCs act autonomously. This would give objectives on the fly (such as destroying enemy MGs in buildings) and give the player enemies other than other tanks, such as Shrek squads, Flak 88s, 17 Pounders.

The NPCs themselves can be standard AI, with bases and everything. Just that their only limitations being that the NPCs cannot build/Call-in any form of Tank. As a twist, structures that build armor (such as Panzer Command, Armor Command Truck, etc.) can be used as call-in/respawn points for the players.

[Ludovsky]

As Flavor, add NPC-controlled infantry squads to each side. Including some armed with AT.

... why suddenly the mix of that NPC infantry combined with players-controlled individual tanks suddenly brings me an image in my head of "Defense of the Ancient, CoH-style"?

Which, in retrospective, would probably look effing great. Dunno if it ever will... but damn would it be a nice surprise :P

[Sturmtruppen]

Direct fires allows you to directly control the tank's turret and when it fires its cannon.
so u enable direct fire by pressing a key (D), move around with your cursor, and left click to fire a shot, hit hotkey again to exit the mode. U use it in the tiger ace campaign with your tiger. It seems unlikely that you will have control on the movement of the tank with wasd or arrows, but you can use this when the tank is moving.

It will most likely be included in the Invasion game mode, which isnt technically player vs player, all human players will be on one side, AI on the other, and u fight. compstomp really, but most interesting probably

but frankly i dont see the harm of having it in real multilayer matches... just extra level of micro on your tanks

[Thunder]

Just to clear things up a little -- I've seen a few posts mentioning that the camera might change when you use Direct Fire, taking you down closer to the tank or whatnot. The camera stays in the same standard RTS position that you play from when you use Direct Fire.

[Anonymous_Gamer]

So that means the concept is similar to the one used in Soldiers Heroes of World War II, Faces of War, and Men of War

[Ludovsky]

Heh, having tried those games, I wouldn't neccessarily say it's a bad thing.

I mean, there was something quite fun sniping tanks on the other side of the map using direct fire with the Elephant/Ferdinand Tank Hunter.

I was also amused in that one game I played that it was my one /downed/ Ferdinand, unable to move as it was, that was doing it to boot(which's friggin' amusing and perhaps a way of having a good idea of the other team considering the Ferdinand is a fixed gun design).

[Anonymous_Gamer]

I always found those games irritating for the sole reason that you had to manage every single individual soldier...24/7 lol

[KoRneYEZ]

So that means the concept is similar to the one used in Soldiers Heroes of World War II, Faces of War, and Men of War

yes. at this rate, we should just rename the game to company of war

[aerziel]

is it just me or does that sound like DOTA

[Skyline Pete]

If direct-fire (as in target a specific unit) could be used with infantry this could be a great way to micro the sniper.

There is an MG crew, instead of your sniper picking off a guy on the side you can direct-target him to shoot the guy manning the MG.

You do know that you can already do this right? The sniper will shoot at which ever man in the squad you click on. I often do this to get the actual gunner so that it stops shooting and has to change men.

Same with flamer units, I always aim for the man with the flamer.

[Xtacc]

:P No I didn't Skyline Pete, I just got the game about 3 months ago. Thanks for the info!

[Nanaki]

is it just me or does that sound like DOTA

Unless they give the Tiger Ace a complex levelling system and an itemization-oriented upgrade system, I doubt its going to be anything like DOTA.

[Ludovsky]

Granted, I guess I actually wouldn't find a tank-based Company of Heroes direct-fire DOTA that unsightful.

Actually, it sounds kind of funny

[Nanaki]

DOTA is fun as hell, ill admit that, and the reason why it is even able to come into being in the first place is due to Blizzard's unparalelled support for modding/mapping. Blizzard's RTSes have been the only ones as far as I know to natively include map/mod destribution as part of the program.

[ZabuzaNinja]

itemization-oriented upgrade system

My Panther tank has frostmourne.

[Tenshi]

Does anyone else think this is only really useful for machine guns or maybe flame throwers...or maybe suppressive volleys?

Tanks can already be tasked on stuff, why would you want to continuously target it? Surely you wouldn't be able to move the tank at the same time as well?

[chenhua007very]

If they wanted to enhance connotation of the new feature they would refine all armor parameters of both tanks and armor cars according to actual cases,even involve another model details and their physical property,despite the work load will go heavy. I expect to see bullets go through neither a concrete structure nor a mound. To the effect that player could move his cursor to select hitting enemy tank in thinnest armor parts such as conjunction of turret-chassis,rear armor,fore-bottom armor and so on.

[Tenshi]

How could you possibly do that with a top down view?

[Ludovsky]

I dunno, personally.

Soldiers: Heroes of WW2's direct-fire did make it possible to take potshots at enemy tanks' tracks effectively, though.

I dunno, personally.

Soldiers: Heroes of WW2's direct-fire did make it possible to take potshots at enemy tanks' tracks effectively, though.