Company of Heroes: Tales of Valor (Now with a Trailer!)

[Imperial Dane]

@Kosake:

Oh yeah. great. Were being sold a bunch of patches and are ripped off for a second expansion afterwards, ooorah!

Uhh no, DLC is not in anyway patches, and even then, for them to kick it up to expansion level means nothing but them actually giving us more ! But you're apparently worked up by some notion of Relic constantly trying to scam you out of all your money.

Yess.. That is blizzard, and that is a full game, this is a second expansion for CoH, besides, Relic and Blizzard are two different developers ! They do their things differently and if you like the way blizzard does it, why don't you head over there and stop implying that the rest of us are morons for not sharing your view.
@Dribblesack:

The new 'units' will most likely be reward units with replacement skins, i.e. similar to those which were leaked during the playtest beta. This doesn't constiture bona fide 'new units' imo

Not really, it's already been said that they will be replacement units that will allow you to tailor your army towards your strategies and tactics.

Plus there are the other multiplayer modes mentioned which we have yet to see or hear anything of.

[Riddles]

Even if the campaign is a load of bollocks, and the new multiplayer mode is boring. If they implement this unit swapping well, this will really add to the CoH experience. If they can add unit's to swap in and out at all tiers for all factions, then the amount of new units on the battlefield, and potentially new tactical situations would more than make up for lack of a new faction.

[DribbleSack]

@ Senseo - Last time I looked, you *weren't* a moderator on these forums.

@ Riddles - You're easily pleased if you think a few replacement units are a fair substitute for a complete new faction!

@ Imperial Dane - Statements such as 'will allow you to tailor your army towards your strategies and tactics' are straight out of a marketing/PR library. You can't take this seriously, surely?

On the question of value for money and breathing some new life into the existing armies, Relic could at the very least of added a new doctrine to each of the existing four armies. Whilst I accept this could have introduced some new balance issues it would at least have felt like some significant new multiplayer content to accompany the single player stuff.

[Tseng_Fox]

Plus there are the other multiplayer modes mentioned which we have yet to see or hear anything of.

But the modes won't be worth buying it, which is the problem.

I mean, would you pay for a game that pretty much only adds a couple of small campains, a few units and 1-2 new game modes?

[Kosake]

(... wich could be introduced as a patch, by the way)

[senseo1990]

I'm no moderator , nervertheless I see the thread locked soon if you go on like this

[Imperial Dane]

Well seems like there is an interview over at worthplaying.com

http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=57983

Talks mostly about choices they made about drawing in new people and such. But also a bit about the new units..

[Bob_Bobber0]

interview sounds hopefull for the future of coh and looking into Coh 2.

[Tseng_Fox]

They talk a lot about what they really want from the game, and they're easy to listen to.

Hahaha Who would have ever thought?

Also, an hour and a half to two hours each campain? thats pretty small... But can't be helped I guess...

Also disppointed that it seems no russians will be brought in till CoH2. (Said they didnt want to leave normandy)

Still, I wished they would say what veichles the axis get, they can't just get a stupid buggy thing while allies get much better Light Vecihles.

[Imperial Dane]

Still, I wished they would say what veichles the axis get, they can't just get a stupid buggy thing while allies get much better Light Vecihles.

Can only agree 100% on that bit..

Not sure if i am dissapointed with russians being CoH 2.. who knows what might happen by then ?

[Imperial Honour]

So I guess you people don't want the game to bring in new people then *faceplam* Anyway the game isn't all about you guys, the game is the work of the developers. If they cannot have the license to try out new stuff with THEIR IP and see how the community reacts to it then don't blame them if they don't want to try something new ever again.

Just because your vocal doesn't mean you should always get your way, in case you had not noticed there is also a non-competitive\single player community out there as well. Most weekends on Saturdays I usually host some games with friends where we hang out playing Comp Stomps or large non-competitive battles against each other for fun. The key part being that most the people that come on Saturdays are not very good at the game so normally don't play online, but they come because the mood of the games will be about having some fun, trying your best and hanging out catching up with each other.

Some people are into more social games where they can relax and have fun playing while some CoH, whether because of their current skill level or because its what they are into. Not everyone is into jumping into the deep end and sometimes losing a number of games before they start to learn how to play and win. A lot of people get into the more competitive stats side of the game when they become more comfortable with their skills and such after playing with friends, and\or because they know that if they don't like the more competitive side of the game they can always go back to just playing online with friends (whether in real-life or some forums they visit).

[MosheLevi]

Well considering, CoH is a pretty small scale game, I don't see how they would be implementing ships or aircraft as anything more than doctrinal powers. Unless you want it so that there's a tactical mission on a ship (hehe). Seriously though, I don't think that's going to come in Tales of Valor.

I agree that COH is a small scale game and that makes it hard to add ships and aircraft.
The only way to make it work is to introduce large scale maps that can support ships and aircraft with higher flow of resources.

I think that would be a refreshing game mode for COH.

COH is already a great game, and I am convinced that adding ships and aircraft will make it even greater.
I just hope we don’t have to wait 5 years for that to happen.

[say1988]

To get anything close to scale ships, would be an enormous increase in game scale, if just destroyers, with a King Tiger (currently one of the largest units in game) being 1 fifteenth the length of a Fletcher class destroyer (the most common American destroyer). Imagine a capital ship.

I really don't think ships and aircraft fit in CoH as controllable units.

[MosheLevi]

To get anything close to scale ships, would be an enormous increase in game scale, if just destroyers, with a King Tiger (currently one of the largest units in game) being 1 fifteenth the length of a Fletcher class destroyer (the most common American destroyer). Imagine a capital ship.

I really don't think ships and aircraft fit in CoH as controllable units.

Other RTS games such as “Act of War” handle ships and aircraft very well.
I therefore don’t see why COH can’t handle that too.

True, the game scale has to be increased substantially, and there is noting wrong with that.
As I said before, a large game scale for COH will be a nice refreshing mod.
More resources, more units and larger zoom capabilities will all fit well with ships and aircraft.

I had a period where I played a COH Tank Mod where each side had 20+ tanks and that was a blast.
So I don’t see anything wrong with large scale maps/battles for COH.

[Imperial Dane]

Can't see a point in bringing in ships, and airplanes are already there in a really good form IMHO.

At most i can imagine game modes where ships play some role as an objective or support unit.. But nothing large beyond that. Not what CoH is about

To be honest i would rather see tank crews getting out of wrecked tanks and such, would make the battles more interesting and perhaps make the loss of a tank not so devestating..

[ShiftyShadow]

From the information Relic has released so far I'd say CoH: ToV won't be worth more than 10 € at most. Laughable 5 short hours of "direct-fire" campaigns, more comp stomp multiplayer modes, and boring replacement units.

Oh dear, Relic...neither will this attract a lot of new customers, nor will it get good reviews.

[Imperial Honour]

You would be surprised actually, if you have ever tried introducing people to the game who are mainly familiar with Turn Based Games you'd know that it ain't exactly easy for them to get to grips with CoH. One of the easier ways of introducing them to the game is to get online host a comp stomp and set the map to something with a whole bunch of chokepoints (eg: Vire River Valley or The Scheldt) and let them learn at their own pace (while helping them with some tips) while you and anyone else (eg: Comp) hold back the enemy AI at the chokepoints on the map.

Seriously even against the easy AI newcomers to the game can struggle, especially if they are new to the RTS genre.

[MosheLevi]

From the information Relic has released so far I'd say CoH: ToV won't be worth more than 10 € at most. Laughable 5 short hours of "direct-fire" campaigns, more comp stomp multiplayer modes, and boring replacement units.

Oh dear, Relic...neither will this attract a lot of new customers, nor will it get good reviews.

I agree that TOV doesn’t have much to offer to existing COH players.
However, it may be appealing to players who never played COH before.
It also helps to keep COH and OF on store shelfs longer.

So TOV it may attract new customers but I don’t think it will get good reviews.

[DarkWarrior]

Well hooray for newcomers, but for those who have been playing this game and suporting it over the years...its a slap to the face.

Is it also just me but it seems the sugestion box has no purpose becuase Relic does not read it.

[Imperial Dane]

I think you need to hold your horses, there are still things to be told and shown, yes we know that there is some system for exchanging units, but do we know how it works ? Not really, and that might actually be something interesting for veterans and rookies alike.

Plus we only know of one multiplayer mode which caters to the Comp Stomp people, which there is nothing wrong in. But condemning the rest doesn't really seem fair.

I mean if this means we get in more people, and that this might in fact serve as a way to ease in more newcomers, then i am all for it, as long as we get some goodies as well.

[DribbleSack]

Well that WorthPlaying article is full of contradictions and inconsistencies ...

Despite stating that Relic want to support the community he goes on to effectively insult both the singleplayer and multiplayer communities by suggesting that the singleplayer community can't handle a campaign which is longer than two hours and that the multiplayer experience is full of 'smack talk and the rudeness' (which is a vast exaggeration of the realiity and not something I would expect to hear from such an influential member of the design team). Hardly an ambassador for Relic/THQ, me thinks.

The replacement units are still basically the ones which were leaked in the playtest beta, though now that they are making ToV a full retail release they can dispense having to leave the stats identical. This still seems like a fairly pointless approach. Why not just add these new units as bona fide buildable units instead a messing around with this replacement crap.

He ackowledges that comp stomping is popular with many CoH players and that the Invasion mode is being added to cater for them. He still doesn't elaborate on what the other game modes are going to be which just reinforces (imo) that they are going to be pretty lacklustre - otherwise they would already be shouting about them.

The one big ticket item he keeps banging on about is direct-fire, which frankly was done 4 years ago in Soldiers: Heroes of WW2. I don't see how this moves the PC gaming world forward.

[JustinFillion]

There must be more replacment units then we are expecting beacuse the guy said theres enuff to customze your play so that isnt useally 1 unit ??

[Bob_Marley]

The one big ticket item he keeps banging on about is direct-fire, which frankly was done 10 years ago in Wargasm. I don't see how this moves the PC gaming world forward.

Fixed that for ya.

[Imperial Dane]

@Dribblesack:
Well while i can't say that i love the new direction the campaign is heading in, i don't dislike it either. And to be honest, Tales of Valour overall seems mostly in the campaigns to be a way to draw in new people.That is why the campaigns will apparently be so short. Not that i like it mind you.. but depending on how good they are, i might be willing to overlook it.

And in regards with the new units, is it impossible that they might actually try something new ? Something interesting that would allow for some additional strategies ? I mean we still don't know the extent, but if we imagine that the Staghound is going to be rather different from the Stuart, in what ways we don't know, although ability wise seems to be hinted strongly at for starters. Then things could get very interesting.

Also the reason they might mention the Invasion mode is because it sounds like a follow up to the Tiger Ace campaign, and considering that was DLC, was what they had worked on the most before they went ahead and made it an expansion, that is why we are hearing so much. Because they still have yet to have something worthwhile presenting with the other campaigns and modes.

And honestly the Direct Fire mode didn't seem that important to me. What seemed important was making it accessible to Newcomers.

[DribbleSack]

I take on board you points. But if you want to attract newcomers, you don't do it with a second expansion to an existing title. You attract them with a sequel, i.e. CoH2. Relic are pissing into the wind if they think ToV is going to bring in (significantly) more players.

The realiity is that they have poured so much resource into CoH Online that they don't have the bandwidth to make CoH2 and DoW2 in parallel so they are offering us ToV as a poor substitute.

[Kosake]

A very poor one, indeed.
They don't even have the staff for a single full lenght campaign. (3-4 missios each means still less than an acceptable 15) so i heavily doubt that they will be able to add at least enough content to make it worth the prize.

[Tseng_Fox]

I think ToV will get okay-ish reviews and will do fairly well.

The one thing I can see everybody talking about is lack of real content, reviewers will pick up on that.

Relic will no doubt be hiding something back, but the question is, is it worth it? Relic are known to be teases and in general this normally hurts them more than helps.

[Kosake]

The only thing they are hiding right now is, that they don't have the staff to do anything big and don't have anything else they can present, nor do they have any idea what else they might add, since then we would learn about that first and uninteresting details like that direct fire mode afterwards.

3 Missions are not a campaign. A single modder with enough spare time can do this in far under a month, let alone a team of at least 10 guys, having years of experience and the whole day to work on the stuff.
As I said, there are user-mods with more to it than that. They are short on ammo and they try to squeeze out all they can get of coh for minimal expenditure before they abandon the project entirely.

[Tiresias]

Kosake: unless you can provide some evidence about how many developers are working on ToV please stop with the conjecture. This goes for everyone in the thread, discussion has been going round in circles for a while, please withhold conjecture and concentrate on discussion what we know, rather about what we presume to know. Some people seem to think that if you say something enough with enough certainty that is as much as evidence it is not. It is getting unhelpful for people seeking genuine information about ToV.

I want this thread kept open for new ToV information, so people will start getting banned from the thread if it continues as such.

[Pyros]

The WorthPlaying interview says that the reason why ToV shifted from a full expansion to a smaller scope is because they have a smaller team working on it. So Kosake's statement about the team being unable to do something on OF's scope is hardly conjecture; it is pretty much fact.

However, Kosake is wrong about the idea that a single modder could create a CoH campaign in under a month. Relic has to add new features, adapt the engine for these new features, handle bug testing, level design, AI, voice acting, cinematics, presentation, quality assurance, etc, etc. A modder doesn't have to worry about anything to that scope, as they're not modifying the engine at all.

[Imperial Dane]

The WorthPlaying interview says that the reason why ToV shifted from a full expansion to a smaller scope is because they have a smaller team working on it. So Kosake's statement about the team being unable to do something on OF's scope is hardly conjecture; it is pretty much fact.

Actually they don't say anything like that as far as i know, yes they have a smaller team working on it, but there is no reasoning behind it, and as far as i know, the bits that make it up were first intended as DLC, which would make it the reverse.

Why there is so few people is up to speculation. Could be another expansion, could be DoW 2 or some entirely third project that requires plenty of manpower.

[Tiresias]

Ok I thought Kosake was implying that Relic was hiding that there were less staff. Fair point, and apologies for being misinformed about that. However please try and keep the thread from going round in circles

[MosheLevi]

I think ToV will get okay-ish reviews and will do fairly well.

The one thing I can see everybody talking about is lack of real content, reviewers will pick up on that.

Reviewers are looking for Innovation, New Features, and New Content in expansions.

From what I read about TOV it doesn’t have any innovation other than the direct control of units (first person shooter style).
This “Innovation” is not even the first time it was applied to an RTS game.
Other RTS games already have this feature.

Besides, first person shooter capabilities in RTS game aren’t that special for RTS fans.
There are so many first person shooter games out there (on deep discounts) so why do we need that in RTS games.

Other than that TOV doesn’t have any other new features.

In regards to new content, all we have is a few replacement units and a very short campaign.
So there isn’t much content either.

So I don’t see how reviewers can give TOV a good review.

[Imperial Dane]

How about how the new units are implemented ? I would wager that is at least somewhat innovative, especially if pulled off right. That and we still don't know about the rest ..

[MosheLevi]

It is expected from every expansion to offer new units to all factions.
There is noting special about that.
That should be the minimum for expansions.

It is also expected from every expansion to offer at least one new faction and ToV is failing miserably for not including a new faction..

[Imperial Dane]

I think you are missing the point, it isn't the new units i am talking about, it is the fact how you can exchange them with already present units, plus how it seems that certain units will belong to both factions now, for example the stuart tank as has been mentioned in 2 previews now i think..

It is that i am talking about. How you can actually customize your force to suit your strategies even more

[MosheLevi]

Isn’t that the same as adding new units to all factions and let the player decide which units he wants to train?

I think that being able to customize doctrines may be more appealing to players than shuffling units.

[Imperial Dane]

Not really, because it forces the player to make some choices before the battle begins and focus the army towards the players strategies.

Besides as i mentioned again, it won't just be new units it seems.

[MosheLevi]

You mean fewer choices because you have to decide which units to use before the game even starts.

If they just add new units than players can make real time choices instead if pre-game choices.

I don’t find this to be appealing at all.

I used to play “Age of Empires 3” for a long time, and in this game players can choose up to 25 cards (reinforcements or techs or extra resources) out of 140 before the game starts.

I always found it to be too limiting.
There was a way to mod the game to include 44 cards instead of 25 and I always had more fan playing with 44 card decks.

[Imperial Dane]

Well that is your opinion on the matter Personally i quite like it, plus the possiblity of actually getting some panzers for the Panzer Elite :P

Although i would like to know the extent of the whole deal, i mean i hope it can be used in ranked games..

[MosheLevi]

I read many articles about TOV and my understanding is that there are going to be just a few units as replacement to existing units.
Do you have additional information about that?

[Imperial Dane]

Well there is the Computerandvideogames.com preview.. and of course i will grant that it might be wrong ( I mean it was an odd preview) But it mentioned stuarts among other things, otherwise the worthplaying interview mentions their plans for the new units as well if i am not mistaken, That is, to change the army composition into something favouring your strategies more.

[MosheLevi]

I am all for more customization but we don’t have much information about that.
I am all for customizing the weapons we get to upgrade our infantry with.

Well, I guess we just have to wait and see.

COH is my favorite RTS to date, and I hope that DOW 2 will top it.
I then won’t have to worry about buying or not buying TOV.

[say1988]

I used to play “Age of Empires 3” for a long time, and in this game players can choose up to 25 cards (reinforcements or techs or extra resources) out of 140 before the game starts.

In contrast I liked that. But you still had some time to scout your enemy before deciding what cards to select [and tbh, out of the 140 probably half were ones you wouldn't use anyways], just like you have some time to select your doctrine on CoH (I always viewed HCs and doctrines on the same level).
Having to select units before the battle could be interesting, so long as units are well balanced and we don't end up with one used all the time.

I agree it isn't likely to be the best expansion out there, to play or in reviews, but I believe it will be good enough to breathe some life into the game (and attract new players), and hold out till CoH2.


BTW: did you spend time at HG Moshe?

[Imperial Honour]

Off-Topic - Heh... I don't know about MosheLevi but Heavengames is where I hang out the most (usually can be found at Total War Heaven the most). Been a member since Rome: Total War from memory, although I use to frequent HG as a guest since the original Age of Empires.

On-Topic - I agree with say1988 and liked the system used in Age of Empires 3, that said having all 144 cards available could\was fun but you got to have different perks and drawbacks for different choice in, or pre-, game.

[DribbleSack]

I'm confident the reviewers will see ToV for what it is (a poor substitute for CoH2) and slam it for adding little to the franchise.

If there isn't to be a new faction in ToV because of engine limitations, then fair enough. But in the absence of a new faction, at the very least there should be a new doctrine for each of the existing armies and some bona fide new units (not replacement units).

[Imperial Dane]

If there isn't to be a new faction in ToV because of engine limitations, then fair enough. But in the absence of a new faction, at the very least there should be a new doctrine for each of the existing armies and some bona fide new units (not replacement units).

Why aren't they new units ? Just because they replace some other unit doesn't fail to make them new units as far as i can see.

[Deacon412]

wait for more info guys we dont yet know what it is bringing to the table...
n btw what i think will be awesome is that not every one has to buy ToV but if you do then you can play against people who dont have it too *from what i understand*

[Imperial Dane]

Most likely, can't see why not as it is Relic's strategy instead of dividing people up by expansion.

[Deacon412]

it was just a realization i had...dunno why i just didnt know it in the first place they did say it was stand alone i guess @_@