Why Hochwald is the best map EVER

[Daigle]

Alot of people complain about the 4v4 maps and I think alot of is is missplaced. There are alot of reasons why people hate these maps and I think I know why and how we can change it. More of this later.

As example I´ve chosen the Hochwald Gap-map which I consider to be the best map on Coh ever. You need to consider some things before you throw yourself out there though. Heres a brief guide for those wanting to play this map. This is for Hochwald but you can apply it on every map just that the key points or "Schwere punkt" is different. If you guys like this one I can do one for Montargis and perhaps some more maps.


Chapter One - Playing pros with noobs.

I think most players having issues with this map is because they constantly play "pickup" games where you usually joins a game with a full size clan waiting and all the guys on your team is pretty noobish. The semi-pros usually know what to do and plays accordingly while the noobs or just a pro who hasnt played this map that much, dont know the key points for winning this map. Therefore, the game gets rather onesided and people say the map suck. For example, guard your small bridge or you will have a fast game. So, try to get a team of players you know are serious and perhaps even teamspeak or something, thats good way to improve your play.


Chapter Two - Richard Style

Now, everyone who atleast has some decency thinks that the allies should always start on the upper side since when they start on the lower side the brits can move their hq there a little bit to fast and seal off the entire island. Making the game a little bit too easy for the allies. I know there exists players who still doesnt know this unwritten rule about this map - "Axis down - Allies up". When playing allies in the south/axis in the north this is called playing the map "Richard-Style". Axis should always be south and allies north if you want a good game.


Chapter Three - The Island

Moving forward. The map seems to favour the brits a little bit since it is quite narrow but recently me and my clan had tried to find ways in winning as axis and I think it it still possible. One thing you do need is getting the island or atleast getting some ammo for the stukas. Stukas is what keeps this map open and clear of the enemy emplacements. That atleast for the long game, which is whenever you play some semi-pros atleast. As axis, you want and need the island unless you can get the two mid ammo points but still...know what this map is about - its about getting the island. Just look at the resources on it. One easy way is trying to tanktrap the small bridge to the island straight off the bat, this can succed but dont count on it. Usually position 7 (Wehr) goes directly to it and tried to block it but any good allied players know about this and play accordingly.


Chapter Four - The House

Kind of tied together with the island. I will explain why. Since the house is pretty important early in the game. Mg in the house will slow down your opponent and buy you some time to dig in. More time equals more troops unless you are brits where time = more emplacements. Nevertheless, whoever gets the house get a good start in the game. That doesnt mean that you will win the game just that you got a good start. In the long run, by securing the house, not dependant on the faction you play you can start cutting off or securing the island. Often as allies you tend to get sealed of the island and then you start pushing down to cut their fuel leading to the island so they cant get any resources. After you´ve accomplished that, keeping the house will usually help you as axis or allies to later in the game to push up and finally seal off the footbridge going to their main base. Thats when you are winning.


Chapter Five - The Road

As Axis, its important not to let the brit dig in in the area around the house and especially on the big road and the medium ammo point there. From there they can seal off any tanks going the the right side of the map with an at gun and also mgs covering the main road which effectively slows down the german players.. As allies you need watch the houses to the north. Dont let any axis get a mg in there or any squad there. From the left house they can tantrap the bridge and on the right they can tanktrap your small bridge to your home island. The road munition is the most important as allies. The one on the right can be lost. The road mun point is where the brits can really dig in and make it difficult for the axis to come out and play.


Chapter Six - Last stand

Once you have cut off their small bridge to the island you can focus on getting into their base. This you can do in two ways

1. Artillery. Stukas and Hummels will blow everything away given enough time.

2. Full assault until the enemy is gone.

Usually you do both at the same time...


Summary and Conclusion

So, if you know he keypoints on this map, (and every other) you gonna know what to do to win. When you are playing with some players against a good team which, everyone should strive for, the first focus is getting the island. Sealing it off somehow. Both teams fight hard. Next phase or perhaps combined with the first one is getting the house. After that go to block their bridge. And so on...

Knowing this you will fight hard and the enemy will fight hard. It will almost be like fighting one on one in terms of the first engagement. This is what makes the game fun. You now that every man counts, that every engagement can lead to you falling back and the enemy taking the house or getting the island or even cutting you off by tanktrapin your small bridge.
This is why its so fun, from the first second you need every guy to make a perfect attack, and keep the momentum. If you loose one squad, that can be the end of it so watch yourself and fight as it was your last man. You need to make every man count and always have some fallback point or they push you back to the river. If you want to excel on this map the key is being able to advance secure and safe. Not loosing more men than the enemy and work your way up, always having a secure "fallback mg" so the enemy doesnt tanktrap you out.

So if you take these things in to consideration before launching a game then I think you will enjoy this map alot.
Dont join a game with a full size clan on the other side when you dont know the players. I think my clan doesnt like it but sometimes you have no choice to play noobs. Even games is whats best. Try getting yourself a team and practise, practise and as we say when my clan plays this map: "Cya in the middle!"

[Penitent]

I think this is a good idea for a thread. People don't play 1v1 maps randomly without checking out strats for the map and the same can be useful for large team matches. It's hard to get a good gamr going on this map sometimes due to lack of knowledge from players about what they should be doing, lone wolves don't fare well here.

Another thing to point out is that, especially for the allies, the initial starting position of the players is important. You don't want a Brit player on the far right since the foot bridge is best used by Americans, and to a lesser extent Wehrmacht over PE.

The small bridges are easily blocked by Engineers or Pioneers so you need to guard them well, although all is not lost if you lose your small bridge. Americans and Wehrmacht can build forward barracks, Brits obviously move their trucks and PE is generally mechanized so never give up the Fight for the Right! Teams often lose on this map once they give up on the island. The resources on the left are paltry and will generally not turn a losing game around.

I think allies have the advantage when fighting for the island because they normally have an airborne and/or commando player. Axis players, even on good teams, often fail to defend the island properly, even though they normally manage to secure it first. I attribute this to the axis tendency to start teching for artillery sooner than is necessary.

Axis generally has to contend with airborne troops landing on the island, but if the axis are unfortunate enough to find a Commando squad has landed on the island then things get very tricky, since the commando's demo charges can keep destroying the bridges indefinitely. PE players often like to go Scorched Earth on this map for the Hummels, but I rarely see them turn a losing game around.

I recommend that PE players resist the urge to make Hummels and go Luftwaffe doctrine for the Fallschirmjagers, in order to keep the allies on their toes in the battle for the island.

Wehrmacht are oftne tempted to go Terror for the King Tiger and V2 rocket, but they often can't afford both Stukas and the V2 when losing, so I suggest they stop thinking about the late game so much and get doctrine abilities that help them earlier on.

I similarly suggest to Brit's that artillery will not win the game on this map. A churchill (when necessary) and improved emplacements, or the flexibility of Commando's and offmap arty go much further than 25 pounder/priest spam. Emplacements are also strong early on for cementing an advantage and funelling the axis inot kill zones, but are easily compromised eventually by clever axis players. There's no excuse for not having an actual army of mobile units to fight with.

[Ludovsky]

Heh, I recall playing this map as axis. Had a fine stomp with my team. I actually played defensive, but made little to no uses of artillery. Rather, I started by going to the island, and bunkering it down against enemy advances(no, I didn`t even need using the infamous MG-Medic bunker. I don`t like exposing my medic stations to the frontline for the very reason they tend to make prime artillery targets).

Once that was done, my troops then fell back into what I`d call a support reserve. Basically, I focused mainly on volksgrenadiers, pionneers and support weapon teams. Whilst I would always take part in the first part of an assault from my team, my troops would always sit back.
When my allies would get tied by the enemy, then my troops would move in to ouflank said enemy and attack him on the side or even rear. Volks might not be the "best" of troops, but there is something to be said of their efficiency when they get at close range of your enemies with MP40 from the rear.
And the panzerfaust is a deceptively useful counter to stuarts.... though I always had an AT gun in a support position just some bit farther back in case something heavier would come.

Then, once the enemy was dealt with, most if not all of my forces would then move in on the now cleared position, and starts laying defenses as pionneers would build bunkers, support teams would move in and that both volks and grenadiers would start laying down sandbags and barbed wires for AT guns and mortars to sit behind. Then, once done, they would resume their support role, ready to spring to the help of my allies when they needed it, again by trying to outflank whoever would tie my allies`advance before finally "plugging" the hole again by increasing our defensive line where the last fight occured. Slowly but surely, it managed to pay off as we would end up on a near constant advance toward our enemies' HQ despite it being a VP game and the occasional setbacks caused by allied arty(which was slightly lessened thanks to the increased health of fortify the perimeter bunker and the fact all of them were reinforcement points for our whole team, which greatly increased the longevity of our troops and with that our team's general durability).

Eventually, I even began to be able to setup flak 88s, one of them I even managed to set on the road with the bridge leading to our enemies' HQs, which greatly disminished their ability to pour out tanks to push us back. Of course, said positions was heavily shelled but I was slowly able to fortify it as my team fought our opposition until we finally won.

[Teleon]

Good old fun map!!! I found it really hard to play, playing the BOTB mod.

[BlackOmne]

The problems with this map are not what the OP mention (except for one in passing). The maps design stinks. You have 4 players funneling through two bridges, one road & one foot, just to leave their bases, regardless of faction or side. That kills it right there because it leads to any faction being able pin a side into their base area early and because it severely hampers making a come back later in the game. Imagine if only one road bridge separated the two halves of loathed maps like Vire River or Lyon. In fact, I have less trouble with the designs of Vire and Lyon than Hochwald. IMHO, you should never have to cross a couple bridges just to leave your base area and any map designed like that (eg, Hochwald or Best) should be rebuilt. The are other design issues with Hochwald but this first issue is sufficient to mark it as a bad map.

[psykopatsak]

i once almost lost, but since i was anti tank, i could do with manpower alone, and they sucked too, but the all knew exactly what to do in early game. then me and my mate got oursevles a Jagpnather each and with our heavy vetted units, we pushed them back and then they leaved, as we just ate everything that cam to us with tripple vetted jagdpanthers and assault grens...

[Daigle]

Good point about the commandos. That is a really good way of taking the island as allies. Often it seems that if u make the allies drop in AB or Commandos to get the island, your are winning. Usually there is a pe blob roaming somewhere close by so be careful.

There are plenti more things to think about and this was merely a way to make people think different of the map. I still think its the best map since you need to consider every move carefully so that if you loose you dont loose your small bridge.

So you guys bitching about this map. Learn how to play and dont play clanners with a noob team. That way you gonna loose no matter how you play. Its just that Hochwald isnt that forgiving. You need to earn the house, earn the island and not getting pushed back.

[Daigle]

BlackOmne: Even if the problem is easily solved by covering the bridges with mg och some infantry ? Just because you just cant run though and dont care about your base makes the map bad? I beg to differ. The fact that every engagement is important since if you loose, you can get pushed back makes it more interesting and more intense. If you play responsible you defend your bridges easily. But if you just fire away your pe blob and then retreat, of course he´s going to run in and tanktrap your bridge. Just more micromanegement is what you need. Dont get spoiled with just running around and retreating into your safe base on all maps. Thats not good gaming. In fact this is what makes the game a little more realistic since you need to cover your bridges and supply lines.: Even if the problem is easily solved by covering the bridges with mg och some infantry ? Just because you just cant run though and dont care about your base makes the map bad? I beg to differ. The fact that every engagement is important since if you loose, you can get pushed back makes it more interesting and more intense. If you play responsible you defend your bridges easily. But if you just fire away your pe blob and then retreat, of course he´s going to run in and tanktrap your bridge. Just more micromanegement is what you need. Dont get spoiled with just running around and retreating into your safe base on all maps. Thats not good gaming. In fact this is what makes the game a little more realistic since you need to cover your bridges and supply lines.

[BlackOmne]

I've seen double posts before, but double pastings?? hehe

Regardless of what you say, I think funnelling 4 players through 1 road bridge and one footbridge to get out of their base is a poor design for this game - IMHO. As a minimum for the map to work for me, the map needs to be re-designed with another path for vehicles (eg, a ford some where else on the streams separating the bases from the main central island) or perhaps move both streams toward the center, shrinking the main island and providing resource sectors on the base side of the streams. Also, I would look at the bridges to the small central island since the only road bridge is closer to one side than the other; I would consider putting that road bridge near the +16 mun point and adding another footbridge near the current location of the road bridge. I would also make all resource points +5s since I believe High/Medium resource points don't belong on a 4v4 map - too many resources for a 4v4 map.

PS-It helps to include an image of the map when discussing it. So here it is.

[dArCReAvEr]

the map simply results in artyspam from either side. The global map design makes spamming arty even easier. So, basically, it is a bad map.

EDIT: Those high points are needed, as most other 4on4 maps have around twice as many sectors as Hochwald.

[Capt.Crunch1]

Sounds like you were comp stomping. Good players don't play this map because it's broken in so many places. This was on of those maps that’s part of the single player campaigns and Relic said " hey, we need more maps, lets slap a few HQ's down and call it a day" So I'm wondering who these good players you played were, good players don't play this map, period.

[ShiftyShadow]

While it isn't as bad as "The Scheldt", it's still far from being a decent map. Noobs and arty spammers might enjoy it, though.

[Nanaki]

Personally, I think the map would be much better if both bridges to the small island were either footbridges or roadbridges. One and not the other makes the map extremely favorable for whichever faction is Team 2. The fact that all you need is a tanktrap to completely deny Team 1 access to the island (and a suicide engy/pio squad is usually enough) is pretty garbage.

But than again, I would also remove all the footbridges entirely and replace with road bridges. Makes pinning a team into an HQ Sector much more difficult when you have two roads to block instead of one.

[forthefries]

if being pinned in your base is easy guard the choke point? thats what i did when i played this map on mp. my allies lost the road but i had a mg covering the fb paid a pretty heavy price to hold on to it but with all the mines and choke points i had set up knowing theyd try to cut us off from the island made them lose more than me. idk dosent seem that broken just have to think hmmm theres 2 ways off this place i wonder will they try to trap me here? anyway we won as axis was a bit of a massacre for us in the start but managed to come back and get the island using forward hqs and such.

[AsI-IGear]

Biggest newb map there is + Scheldt an Vire....

Newbs can camp an play the slow pace style..

The gameplay on those maps are the same everytime so its easy for newbs to controll an set up..... Thus it is there favorite

[Penitent]

Arty spammers never do well against a good team. Noobs and arty spammers are a problem that can plague random team games whatever map they are played on.

Artillery is not that good on this map actually, in most games that I've played artillery spam tends to be a desperate last move once a team has been pushed back into their base. You don't get rewarded for spamming arty like you do on Vire or Scheldt due to the size of the map.

I'd be against replacing foot bridges with road bridges, it would change the way the map is played dramatically. Just add more maps.

[Daigle]

I still think you guys are playing this map the wrong way. Sometimes as allies (always playing from the top, se my chapter on Richards Style) you just push to the first ammo and fuel points just after your bridges and from there on you need to fight your way out.

The thing is, that I can understand why you think this map is so biased since if u loose your foothold, you loose. But thats why you need another playing style for this map. I think there are a couple of playing styles but I can atleast look on my own playing skills and how it evolved.

Take for example me playing PE.

Old school
This way was usually just building two bloobs, one with STGs and one with shreks. Usually I sent the anti-inf blob roaming around the map just flanking every mg, keeping the pace up never letting the opponent settle down or atleast making them build emplacements up covering all sides. This had its advantages but often left my wehr ally alone ( usually we play with a wingman on each side) alot and he couldnt hold when the rangers and airborne started pushing and after that they made him retreat they started digging in and end of game. If you look at my previous posts, it clearly states that you cant get "routed" on this map, the price is just to much. You need to always have troops covering your bridges. Anyway, this was enough to either just kill them all or atleast buy some time for my wehrmacht players to get stukas. You always need stukas for sim city, which usually is the case on this map. In the end i got some panthers or Hummels depending on what I felt was more fun.

New School

Usually now, the tactic is different, not just for this map, I use this on most maps. Take PE again as an example. Usually a couple of squads to fend off the first engagement and depending on which side you are on (Hochwald Gap), say right, you first push to get the road mun point. Usually you gonna run into two brits or one brit and one WSC american. Its important that you dont loose this first engagement. You need keep them from caping the point and prefereably making them retreat. Usually you ´ll start with two squads, one gewehr 43 against one brit or two brit squads. Now this is where the game gets interesting. If you face two brit squads you cant just attack straight in. You need to stay around until your partner gets his squads (pe) or mg (wehr) så you can pin the squads and then move in. After this you can try to be bold and go for the house near their road or you can start digging in - consolidating your gain.

If you are playing on right as say axis. Lets say you are Wehr on seven. You go with your first squad to try and block their footbridge. Now this might seem gamey, but its up to the allied players to defend the bridge leading to their island if they wanna win. If if you can get it tanktrapped its no sure win for the axis. I can send you numerous replays of where we turned the game around even though getting the bridge to the island tanktrapped.

If you manage this, you usually try to go for their house near their small bridge. This usualyl gets a little bit tricky though and you end up in the house in the middle. Sometimes the enemy just goes straight for the house and your first skirmish is around the house. Anyway, say you loose the house. Now, this is whats seperates good players from bad on this map. You need to have a fall back point. If you just leave everything behind and start retreating everything. The enemey will first of all tanktrap your bridge to your base and cap the fuel point outside it, effectively cutting you off from all the island goodies and then you will have a tough game.


Summary and conlusion

This game has 4 phases.

1. First skirmish
Usually you try to push atleast to the middle. First guy blinking looses and will have less map control.

2. Consolidate
First guy who wins will have more map controll and starts securing his gains with bunkers or more troops and at guns. The guy who lost the first engagement will try to secure what he still got, making sure that he isnt getting thrown in the river. I think this point is where people neglect, when they loose the first engagement, they come back with more, get thrown back and so on. Instead, focus on securing your gains until you are stronger.

3. Pushing
When you have consolidated you need to start attacking weak spots or just point harassement. Still, dont loose too much, its better to save troops to fight another day if you run into trouble.

4. Winning
Just kicking the last of his base. After you pushed them in the river, tanktrap their bridges and have some art or just move in with all you got.

This is the basical principles in playing what I call "New School". This is for every map and of course, point 3 does include pushing into high resources areas and Schwere punkts but those I mentioned earlier in the game for this map and are always map specific.

The thing is that this map is what that me this tactic and thats why I think its the best map ever

[ViiKumi]

Old school
This way was usually just building two bloobs, one with STGs and one with shreks. Usually I sent the anti-inf blob roaming around the map just flanking every mg, keeping the pace up never letting the opponent settle down or atleast making them build emplacements up covering all sides. This had its advantages but often left my wehr ally alone ( usually we play with a wingman on each side) alot and he couldnt hold when the rangers and airborne started pushing and after that they made him retreat they started digging in and end of game. If you look at my previous posts, it clearly states that you cant get "routed" on this map, the price is just to much. You need to always have troops covering your bridges. Anyway, this was enough to either just kill them all or atleast buy some time for my wehrmacht players to get stukas. You always need stukas for sim city, which usually is the case on this map. In the end i got some panthers or Hummels depending on what I felt was more fun.

New School

Usually now, the tactic is different, not just for this map, I use this on most maps. Take PE again as an example. Usually a couple of squads to fend off the first engagement and depending on which side you are on (Hochwald Gap), say right, you first push to get the road mun point. Usually you gonna run into two brits or one brit and one WSC american. Its important that you dont loose this first engagement. You need keep them from caping the point and prefereably making them retreat. Usually you ´ll start with two squads, one gewehr 43 against one brit or two brit squads. Now this is where the game gets interesting. If you face two brit squads you cant just attack straight in. You need to stay around until your partner gets his squads (pe) or mg (wehr) så you can pin the squads and then move in. After this you can try to be bold and go for the house near their road or you can start digging in - consolidating your gain.

This has nothing to do with playing hochwald gap (which imho is a pretty bad map). These are just ways of playing bad, and quite a bit better than bad. As you said, these apply for any map, therefore I would not say that these are the tactics that will award you with a win in hochwald, it's just a "tactic" that will save you from certain loss against a player who knows even the slightest bit what he's doing.

[Daigle]

If you look at alot of maps like montargis and even Route there always exista chokepoints where if you are fast enough in the beginning you can seal off the map. Just the fact that Hochwald isnt that rewarding for players just used to throw everything out there isnt argument enough to say its a bad map.

To get this discussion up a notch, lets decide what a bad map is first and what are the characteristics of a bad map and how does it affect the game ?


1. What is a bad map ?

2. What characterstics has it got that makes it bad ?

3. Why are those characteristics bad and how does it ruin the game ?


I myself think that an bad map is one which is fundamentaly flawed or biased towards one faction or one starting side. Also its a map where resources are uneven (comes back to biased towards one side) or there are some big pathing troubles when trying to move.

[ViiKumi]

well, a map with +16 points are clearly biased for the british, who have free OP's. also, those points are extremely easy to defend for the british. That game is just pure allied victory, unless the allied players:

A: barbed wire their bases and camp there
B: bombard the shit out of each others with arty
C: are afk.

Map is clearly biased -> it's bad.

[Killerratte]

Yeah ... how about this ... the exploding PE halftrack / kettenkrad trick. It almost always works. You just put a goddamn car in front of a small footbridge, the allies have to kill it and now it blocks their way. This map is so full of shit for both allies and axis, it's a joke. When i'm US and i'm on the upper side, i always try to build tank traps as fast as possible below the bridge so they can't send the blockers there. This map is a complete disaster. The lower side has it much easier to reach the island = instant win. Someone from the lower side just sends a few engineers/pioneers up to that small bridge and they easily blocked it. For the love of god, just make two undestroyable bridges from the HQ islands directly to the ressource island ... or just throw this whole map into the trashcan.

[Daigle]

I think as allies playing from the north, there is ways to make the small bridge unblockable by the early ketten. Also, as I stated earlier, as allies the map is by no chance lost if you dont get the island. Perhaps if your played the map more instead of whining its nooby you could figure out how to do it.

[alpine]

All the COH veterans I know hate this map with a passion because it's so easy to block or pin down a bridge.

Myself and my clanmates have refused to play this map for nearly a year now. For 4 v 4 we play the 2 boring other ones or custom maps, but Hochwald is on our no play list.

[Daigle]

If its soo easy, why dont you do it all the time yourselves ? Or is it always just easy for the enemy ?

[Nanaki]

'Easy to block or pin a bridge' is exactly his point. Instead of superior play winning the day, it ends up being a contest of who can out-block who. This is not really fun, ergo it is why this map is loathed.

[Daigle]

I think every guy who played this map knows that one mg isnt going to pin anything so close to the enemy base. If you end up with your back close to the river, and no stuff to help you. Then you played the game wrong earlier. You always pay for lack of skill, this map is just so much harder but also more rewarding. Every battle counts. If you get tanktrapped, examine how you played up to that point. Did you push to fast? Did you focus on the wrong side? This is also what makes the map interesting since you need to focus on the area between the small bridges. Everyone knows that. So, alot of heavy battles there. Everyone of the two guys on the right sends everything there, sometimes even one or two guys from the right because you need to get it.

So my advice is still: Learn to play so you dont get instantly crushed or pushed back totally and if you still loose and they tankrap you again, analyze, post some replays and practice and more practise Daniel-San

[Pyro Paul]

the map is a horrible map with horrible design choices which are imbalanced it drastically towards the British. regardless of what you think, it is a British Bias map through and through.

It has high resource values;
in 4v4 maps high resource points cause the game to automatically favor one side over the other as one side gets cumulitive +64 resource through the capture of a single +16 point the other side gets nothing. in other 4v4 maps the resource values are spread out amongst the area having Several low resource points rather than having a single high resource point. this allows for a more diffused division of resource and allows the other side to still stay contendable in the map despite not having a majority of it.

It has Large encompassing capture points;
this automatically favors the british side which is capable of locking down and heavily securing an area by simply having its truck park in the territory of that point. Further more, it allows the british player to more offencively use his emplacements. By capturing the Middle +10 resource value he can build emplacements which Over look and cut off the Northern bridge route to the opposit side.

although some may argue that the Panzer Elite can also secure from any point. However this argument is flawed considering that the Scout cat w/ Logistiks upgrade is still pathatically frail and vunrable to small arms fire where as the British HQ truck is resistant to all forms of fire save for high explosive anti tank.


Limited access;
because there is only 1 vehical bridge and 1 infantry bridge, it is fairly possible to lock an enemy inside their own base sector. Regardless of how much they try and tweek it, so long as the natural barrier between either side exists, those choke points exist. And the british excel at holding choke points.



The easiest fix:

Spoiler

By simply break up the map more adding more points so that it defuses the resources more evenly betwen the two sides, also making it much harder to lock down the entire map. Further more the addition of another exit on the upper side of each starting point which can further aid vehicals getting out of the map also would bring a bit of balance to the map.

this also promotes increased strife between players and more small skirmishes through out the game.

[Nanaki]

Pyro, your idea is decent except for the bridge part, but I would scrap the added bridges and instead upgrade all the footbridges to road bridges (Road bridges cannot be ketten-blocked or tanktrap-blocked). It would be more easily doable without the map looking odd or awkward in the end.

[alpine]

Vire River, my favorite map, a 4 player map has 3 possible choke points and places vehicles can get to the other side. This 8 player map has one for vehicles and two total. Awful design. As pyro Paul just suggested, another bridge would be huge for this map.

As it is now, it is easily the worst 4 v 4 map, and one of the worst overall.

[Pyro Paul]

I think every guy who played this map knows that one mg isnt going to pin anything so close to the enemy base.

which makes me wonder if you have acctually even played this map... or even this game.

a single 30 cal team or MG42 rushing to the infantry bridge with a Single rifle squad as support can set up, Supress, and hold the infantry bridge through out the game cutting off that point as an exit.

and this isn't 10 20 minutes down the road... this is the first squads built still with in the first 5 minutes of map start.

[side]

Im trying to post something a little bit more useful then some of the previous posts. Seems there are only two kinds of players contributing something to the discussion.
First, the players wrtiting some serious posts containing some serious arguments.
Second, the "I'm pro, this is a noob map" posts, where "I'm pro" is used as an argument.

However, hochwald is a nice map when you obey the rules pointed out in the first post. I play brits or wehrmacht on the right side.

It seems im doing something wrong since i am usually not able to spam arty. My point is that in a good game on this map, every player has to pull his weight. In order to do this you cannot sit back build arty while the rest of your team has to deal with the situation. The only games where this might work, are the ones where the enemy does the same, which ends in "3 vs 3 and 1 arty vs 1 arty" or something like that (which is not fun).
However, if you play brits and think "I should have clicked the SimCity Icon on my Desktop" then this is your problem.
Count to ten and watch the stukas opening a secret portal where CoH ends and Diablo starts. This map favours the stuka, because it is medium size map and you dont need 6 of them, 2 are enough


The Island
yes it is important. But a little bit overrated. Usually in the beginning it is axis territory. When you play allies, don't send too much stuff to the island. Keep them busy near the house and then go for the island.
Every unit that is on the island, is not near the house. And don't forget: there are two bridges to the island. If you can get the house, use the lower bridge.

The Kettenkrad/Tanktrap, ... FUN
i personally like this part of early game. But thats just me. Blocking bridges is usually the axis job, whereas the allies have to prevent it.
Playing against an allied team which knows what to do, will always result in 0 of the 3 bridge entrances beeing blocked. Then the axis should stop sending pios. I saw a lot of axis players giving it a second, sometimes even a third try.
However, if you play allied and a bridge is closed with a tank trap. There is this secret weapon called explosives. Blow it up and repair it!
If you play brits and a bridge is blocked with a kettenkrad wreck use the HQ to drive over the wreck!


The high ressource points
People complaining about the high ressource points on this map complain about what exactly? Too much for allies? To much for axis? Usually the brits will try to get the high munition points. Driving the HQ truck to the island is always a bad idea. This works against noobs. A skilled axis player will trap the truck on the bridge and set up an MG to kill retreating troops.
And please don't forget that for example montargis is a lot worse considering the ammo hill. Allies (airborne) + ammo hill = "We need an Air Traffic Controller"

which makes me wonder if you have acctually even played this map... or even this game.

a single 30 cal team or MG42 rushing to the infantry bridge with a Single rifle squad as support can set up, Supress, and hold the infantry bridge through out the game cutting off that point as an exit.

and this isn't 10 20 minutes down the road... this is the first squads built still with in the first 5 minutes of map start.

How do you exactly manage not getting blocked and sneek around the mg42? Do you build barracks and WSC? Or do u need your mate to send the 30Cal / Rifle squad.
Sounds like strat that if it is not a success, results in losing your side completely.

[Daigle]

Okey. First, the point about the resources is the only valid point. I´m not so sure how much it affects the game since every Wehr player usually blocks the big bridge early so the brits cant get there anyway witout blowing the bridge up.

So, about the point of brits digging in on the road, I agree. They can seal it off totally. So, how do you adapt your playstyle to that ? You dont let them get the point. if they dont control the point they cant put the hq down. Thats just an example.

Regarding brits, they are easy to play if you get enough time, and yes they are excellent at creating unpenetreable chokepoints but still, every time you play a brit you dont just put the game down if they get up an at gun and some mgs?

Also, if you dont know the counter to Sim city, you need to play the game some more before you try a map like this. Dealing with Sim Citys is all over the forum too.

Regarding the "superfastmg" setting up to cover the bridge 1 min into the game ? Are you serious ? What are you doing with your troops in the meantime ? Seriously ? And, having it so close by you base, just get a freakin sniper. I mean come on. I would just love a guy doing that tactic... Nah, I prefer a even game.

[BlackOmne]

Another imbalance is the width of the streams. One side can doesn't have to cross the bridges to fire on the other side, while the other side has to practically wait for things to cross the bridges to hit anything.

Daigle,
Face it. No mater how you strategize it, you are not going to convince a lot a people that this is the "greatest CoH map ever". I think that distinction falls to Angoville or possibly Semois if you want to consider all official maps from 1v1 thru 4v4. Among just the official 4v4 maps, that best map award (I wouldn't say "ever" since there could be some good 3rd party maps out there that I haven't seen or because there is still room for the perfect 4v4 map) probably falls to Montargis.

[Daigle]

BlackOmne: True, it isnt perhaps the greatest map of COH. I think thats difficult to judge. But it is the best map out of the 4v4, atleast in my perspective. The name of the thread was to make people read it. It should say best 4v4 map.

It will always be difficult to judge 1v1 against 4v4. I agree on the Angloville, it is really a good 1v1 map. This thread was more about trying to get more players into Hochwald since I felt it had gotten a bad reputation which it didnt deserve.

[Pyro Paul]

Okey. First, the point about the resources is the only valid point. I´m not so sure how much it affects the game since every Wehr player usually blocks the big bridge early so the brits cant get there anyway witout blowing the bridge up.

So, about the point of brits digging in on the road, I agree. They can seal it off totally. So, how do you adapt your playstyle to that ? You dont let them get the point. if they dont control the point they cant put the hq down. Thats just an example.

Regarding brits, they are easy to play if you get enough time, and yes they are excellent at creating unpenetreable chokepoints but still, every time you play a brit you dont just put the game down if they get up an at gun and some mgs?

Also, if you dont know the counter to Sim city, you need to play the game some more before you try a map like this. Dealing with Sim Citys is all over the forum too.

Regarding the "superfastmg" setting up to cover the bridge 1 min into the game ? Are you serious ? What are you doing with your troops in the meantime ? Seriously ? And, having it so close by you base, just get a freakin sniper. I mean come on. I would just love a guy doing that tactic... Nah, I prefer a even game.

the bolded points prove that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Point 1.
asides from the point that there is a +16 munitions On the main area which, saying that axis could 'Destroy the large bridge' is just mind boggling...

Demolition charges do not exist for Either side early on in the game. Wehr starts with 0 munitions and have 0 munitions income, so they are unable to purchase the 125 munition Goliaths, Panzer Elite starts with 50 munitions, with 0 munitions income, must build a Logistiks Kompany then a Vampire Halftrack before spending 125 munitions to deploy a Goliath. the british will have long since been deployed on the high resource value when you deploy your first RC bomb.

of course, then again, you miss the point...
it doesn't need to be the british... if you noticed, i didn't say british at all when talking about the high resource value. the fact of the matter is with a +16 resource value one side wins, one side loses... there is no middle ground. those that can hold the +16 resources will automaticaly gain favor with the map.



point 2.
Map start. British player and US player rush towards middle of map. british player has a Recon Rifle Section, us player has 2 Engineers.

PE player and Wehr player rush towards middle of map. PE player has a Kettenkrad, Wehr player has 3 Pioneers.

who do you think is going to win that engagement?

the side with a primary infantry squad and 2 builder squads or the side with 3 builder squads and a defencless recon unit?

in 2v2 it is usually rather impossible to win such an engagement which is why in most 2v2 maps it is usually a better idea to capture the rest of the map because as they both focus on that one area the rest of the map is yours for the taking, something which also rings true for the other 4v4 maps. However, that isn't the case here as there isn't anywhere Else to go. by losing that plus 10 you lose access to a majority of the map from the vehical bridge side.

point 3.
Counters to british 'sim City'
Panzershrecked PzGrens, Grens, Sturmtruppen.
Walking Stuka.
Nebelweffer (to a lesser extent)
Hummel
Avoid, capture rest of map.

now... of all the mentioned counters... all of them save for 1 are Highly resource dependent. the Primary counters of Panzersheck and Walking stuka are Highly Munitions dependent, and if you notice, the axis players will be limited to a simple +5 munitions if the british set up a sim city in the +10 middle single handedly holding off all 4 players vehicals where as the US players can focus on the southern points holding off the infantry bridge fairly easily.

the clear and often primary answer of 'Avoid' which is the most common answer to british sim cities is unavilable though, as because the british player set up on a Key area outside of your base you can Not avoid it.

point 4.
What forces do you have? builder units? possible a basic infantry unit? For some reason you think that you have a full division of troops at your disposal that is capable of countering every squad i send out. this is the first 5 minutes of game buddy... you don't have that many units out on the field... and unless if you are simply Camping your 2 pioneer squads and 1 volks squad or 2 engineer squads and 1 rifle squad on that meager infantry bridge there isn't going to be much to stop the deployment of an MG over that bridge


sure get a sniper... it doesn't matter.

by the time you have a sniper i can have an MG nest built. i could of built a Tank trap, barbed wire or sandbags. i have denied you from the area long enough to have locked down the area and prevent it from being taken back.



and really...
'Learn to play' is not an approiate responce to people whom give you logical answers. it just further proves that you are unwilling to understand the opposit side as you take up a 'mightyer than thou' perspective.

[Capt.Crunch1]

I think the point everyone is trying to make about the map being broken is this. There are too few choke points to lock a team into their base sector. Once you manage to lock them in their base you control 90% of the resources, now lets say the enemy team makes a big push and gets back out of their base. How long were they trapped there, 5-8 minutes maybe? You just got out teched, game over as the armor rolls over your T2!

The best fix for this game would be to get rid of the rivers in front of the bases all together, leave the island alone. But being able to pin a team in it's base with no resources = broken map, period! It has nothing to do with "learning" a new tactic or play better, hell I'm only a level 8-9 across the board so I'm no pro, but I do know what makes for a good map and this disaster ain't it.

I'm glad you think this is the best map ever, great for you, but when everyone here is an above decent player and we're calling it a suckfest of a map and you telling us to learn how to play, well, you come off sounding like a pompus n00b who's finally beaten the Expert computer for the first time and is now a self decribed expert! Great for you there chiefy, you get a golf clap and a gold star on your forehead, now go put your head down while I turn off the lights, it's quite time!

[FOTHERINGILL]

I am looking forward to your analysis of Montargis and Route N-13.

I have not played the Hochwald Gap for over a year and a half because the game can be decided in the first two minutes, depending on who blocks the SE or NE bridge first. There is then only one exit point out of the base that is blocked.

As to starting Brits in the south, way too much of an advantage.

[BlackOmne]

I also note that your strategy for this map seems to be written in terms on an Annihilation game, not the more popular VP game. If you're playing a VP game, there is no need to cross the bridges and take out the enemy bases. Just setup an easy to achieve kill-zone opposite it and it's game over. Why are the kill zones easy to achieve? Do you realize the difference in the pop cap ratio at that point? One side will have the pop cap of five sectors to work with while the other side has the pop cap of the rest of the map, including the bonuses from the medium and high points.

And having even a single high resource point on a team map that can be reached by a brit truck means definite advantage to the Allies, regardless of how the Axis should struggle to not let that happen. With the advent of the Brits, I don't think a single team map (2v2+) should have a +16 point on it, unless the resource sharing model is extensively changed. +16s should be reserved for 1v1 only. 4v4s should never have even medium points on them. Medium points should be rare on 3v3s. How often do you see people say there are too many resources in team games or that they end up floating too many resources? I think that is the primary reason why team games are so drastically different than 1v1s. If you want team games to be more like 1v1s, fix the resources on team maps and thereby simplify the faction balancing equation for 1v1s and team games.

[Pyro Paul]

i dunno, a a single small +10 resource on some maps in the very middle can become a highly contestable area which makes for some intresting skirmishes, however i do agree. the larger the map becomes the less resource it should have.

it is the mechanic which has worked for all of the other 4v4 maps, i don't see why it should be diffrent for this map.

[BlackOmne]

For large team games, especially 4v4s, you make an area high contestable by placing a VP in it or make it a LARGE (not easily closed with TT and wire) chokepoint or make strategically interesting in other ways (like built-in emplacements such at those on the central hill in Hill 331) or by concentrating the +5 fuel points in the area (like those in the center of Montargis).

[Penitent]

a single 30 cal team or MG42 rushing to the infantry bridge with a Single rifle squad as support can set up, Supress, and hold the infantry bridge through out the game cutting off that point as an exi

and this isn't 10 20 minutes down the road... this is the first squads built still with in the first 5 minutes of map start.

Bullshit. Try doing that against a good team, because it will probably fail Pyro. Don't get me wrong, it's entirely possible to lose the infantry bridge early on, however it's also entirely possible to keep it open. Enough with the blanket statements.

The smaller bridge on the north of the island is somewhat mitigated by the Allies having many airdropped units. It's normally the Axis, down south who start to have trouble reaching the island eventually.

[Daigle]

1. Pyro Paul: Its not the principle for other 4v4 games in terms of resources as Side noted. Just look at Hochwalds "ammo hill". Also, if you look at Route, you can easily seal of the northern part of the map until the other side gets tanks. Why dont I hear anyone complain about the easyness of that map ? Simililar problems exist on Montargis where the "ammo hill" is pretty easy to defend as well giving you an advantage.

2. Now about this:

asides from the point that there is a +16 munitions On the main area which, saying that axis could 'Destroy the large bridge' is just mind boggling...

I didnt say that you could destroy it. I am talking about tanktrapping it.

3.

in 2v2 it is usually rather impossible to win such an engagement which is why in most 2v2 maps it is usually a better idea to capture the rest of the map because as they both focus on that one area the rest of the map is yours for the taking, something which also rings true for the other 4v4 maps. However, that isn't the case here as there isn't anywhere Else to go. by losing that plus 10 you lose access to a majority of the map from the vehical bridge side.

Now are you sure you cant win this engagement ? If not, can you somehow figure out a build order to atleast hold the enemy at bay until you get the almost "regular mg"
Some times its not about winning and sending them home but denying them the territory until you can get moore troops and capture it yourself. When I get home I can post a replay of a good team doing just this. Its a little bit difficult to explain, atleast for me.


4. About this

of course, then again, you miss the point...
it doesn't need to be the british... if you noticed, i didn't say british at all when talking about the high resource value. the fact of the matter is with a +16 resource value one side wins, one side loses... there is no middle ground. those that can hold the +16 resources will automaticaly gain favor with the map.

Again, look at montargis, look at Route. Easy ways to seal off and get more res. than your opponents.

5. Blackomne: Yes, I concur, Hochwald as VP looses alot, thats just my two cents but I still do some vp now and then. The strat my team uses is the same anyway so it doesnt matter, its just usually a shorter game. Anyway, I am talking about annihilation thats true.

6.Captain Crunch:

I think the point everyone is trying to make about the map being broken is this. There are too few choke points to lock a team into their base sector. Once you manage to lock them in their base you control 90% of the resources, now lets say the enemy team makes a big push and gets back out of their base. How long were they trapped there, 5-8 minutes maybe? You just got out teched, game over as the armor rolls over your T2!

My point is that there is a way to play so that you know how to not get locked in. Of course in the end one team is going to get pushed back and tanktrapped but in terms of early game, there certainly is defence against an early push. Look at my early games situtations later in this post.

Of course you wont win all the time but still. I think that the kind of "direct" play involved in this strives from the mapdesign so changing it would change the whole playing style.

7. About the start

point 2.
Map start. British player and US player rush towards middle of map. british player has a Recon Rifle Section, us player has 2 Engineers.

PE player and Wehr player rush towards middle of map. PE player has a Kettenkrad, Wehr player has 3 Pioneers.

who do you think is going to win that engagement?

the side with a primary infantry squad and 2 builder squads or the side with 3 builder squads and a defencless recon unit?

I think I stated some starting situations earlier. The most common I´ve encountered n the road is:

Allies
2 Brits or 1 Brit and 1 US

Axis: 1 PE and 1 Wehr

This makes in the first skirmish usually:

1 Brit recon Squads or 1 Brit Recon squad, 2 engineers, one mg (usally a little bit later though but still in play in the first phase I think)

against

2 PE squads (one gewehr43) and 2 pioners, 1 MG42 (here also a bit later but still in play I think) Sometimes the third PE squad is in play about the time the mg kicks in or around that time atleast.

On the right I usually see

1 Brit and 1 US

or

2 US

Sometimes Two brit but seldom these days I think

This is fighting

1 PE and 1 Wehr

This leads to about the same engagement as on the right although sometimes the pioneers of the wehr isnt around because its capping the island or stuff like that.

Regardless this isnt map specific but its on this level you should start looking on how YOU play the game I think.

8. Sim City

point 3.
Counters to british 'sim City'
Panzershrecked PzGrens, Grens, Sturmtruppen.
Walking Stuka.
Nebelweffer (to a lesser extent)
Hummel
Avoid, capture rest of map.

Now, you need to understand that early game, allies is better than axis early on usually. Wehr veterancy and tanks is late game while the Allies can get some of the goodies early game. Nevertheless, as axis you want the game to drag on a while so you can get your Stukas and Tigers etc. Thats why you play these factions just a tad different. I wont go in to that in this thread since the post is too long anyway but as axis, you will want to consolidate and preferably have some ammo so you can get stukas. Thats why you need to consolidate perhaps just a tad far from the mid but still having the island or one of the other mun. points. Then you basically need to survive until the Stukas come around and you can survive. Of course, if they dont dig in, just attack but usally you gonna se some at and mgs and perhaps bofors. Those you need to clear before moving in. Thats why you need stukas. Ok you say, what if I cant get any ammo of the start ? Well then you need to focus more on the skimish phase and learn how to double or "threedouble" on one side so you can get the ammo you need for stukas or shreks or whatever you want.


9. Apologize

and really...
'Learn to play' is not an approiate responce to people whom give you logical answers. it just further proves that you are unwilling to understand the opposit side as you take up a 'mightyer than thou' perspective.

You are right, I was out of line, my apologizes. I hope everyone will keep a nice tone in here. Lets hope for a more productive discussion and please try to have a reason say why you think this map is good/bad and not just say its a noob map.

[FLXleGaulois]

How can you consider a map based on tanktrap building with no possible comeback as a good map ? It's like a 1v1 map where the winner is the one who captures the middle point and that's all. Why are late game units made for if the game is won or lost from minute 5 ?

I agree with Pyro Paul, camping is too much rewarded, the counters come too late (=never)

But my point is that a map which limit the possible strategies to basically an only one (the one you have presented) is not a good map.

[BlackOmne]

Daigle,
How would you counter this-

Let's assume we have 2 brits and 2 US facing 2 wehr and 2 PE.

The brits will each build a bren carrier first followed by a LT. The US players build a second engineer and start building a WSC (one US player) and one barracks (other US player). The brits rush both of their recon squads to Axis road bridge. Their bren carriers will arrive at the bridge about the same time. What will they face? Perhaps two pgrens and two pioneers at best (assumes that the axis completely ignore going for the small island in the middle or high resource points in general). The brits will win between having 2 recon squads and two bren carriers. In fact, one recon can probably keep them busy while the other builds a trench. Meanwhile, the US players can rush MGs, Riflemen, and eventually a sniper to cover the footbridge. The US engineers meanwhile cap the road sectors allow the brits to put an MG and a mortor pit to cover the road bridge. After that, they can concentrate on capping the rest of the map. The next move for the brits is to bring in at least one Support Truck so that a 17 lbr can be built to cover the bridge; other brit could continue to send infantry to assist the recon squads covering the bridge. Later US units are either capping the map or supporting the footbridge defense. The result: the Axis are bottled up in their bases with a small pop cap and no fuel income. Guess who loses. Don't assume that the initial actions for both sides is to start capping sectors. They only need to aggressively bottle the other team in their base area to start, and the Allies can do that fairly easily compared to the Axis. One team doesn't have to play fair and meet the other in middle after waiting for support (MGs or whatever).

[Vintage]

This thread reminds me of one I made awhile back about how Scheldt/Hochwald type maps suck badly and make finding a good lobby game impossible. They also cater to newbs, who in turn will play this maps over and over again and never get better at the game, since these maps do not require skill of any type. Check the thread and screenshot, it is quite funny actually.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=196051

[Daigle]

Vintage: I think the skill lies in being able to win on every map, not just the totally open ones. But nevertheless, with that argument you can argue and say that there is no skill in winning for instance on Seine River docks, no skill in Montargis since that one is also pretty easy to lock down imo. Its always easy if you win the first engagement to lock a piece of the map down. I think thats how people play Route too. Atleast in the north. The team who wins on the road can usually get the whole north, atleast for a while, does that make the map biased too ?

I think the debate about early game builds isnt map specific still and shouldnt be in this thread. I´m at work now but I´ll try to have Side post a replay showing a decent Hochwald game.

Blackomne: Why dont you just pick up some mates and we can try this "easy rush" and see if it works ? We just do a normal 4v4, Hochwald, normal resources fixed positions, allies north and axis south? I promise to post the replay for all here.
Perhaps then, we can move on in this thread?

[Vintage]

You just proved my point. The skill lies in being able to win on every map, which players who only play on Hochwald/Scheldt maps cannot do. The players who enjoy those maps are typically newbs who can only play those maps. They play them over and over and never learn anything new. I am not using the term newb in a degrading manner. It simply is what it is. You can enjoy that map all you want, but it will not teach you anything new. You might as well play Command and Conquer or some other RTS besides COH since those maps do not carry the elements that make COH what it is.

The reason why these are newb maps is because they go against every gameplay mechanic COH is praised for. These maps lack strategy. Montargis takes plenty of skill to win. You say it is pretty easy to lock down? Clarify what you mean. Easy to lock down for what? for Axis? for Allies? There are several major strategies that can work on Montargis. Camping is not one of them.

"Real maps", such as Hill, Montherme, Point du Hoc, Rails, etc. promote every gameplay mechanic that COH is known for. "Newb maps" such as Scheldt/Hochwald do not promote anything except camping and spam.

[Daigle]

I think I just played a Hill game where the allies from the south pushed hard on the right and choked the entire right. If thats possible, isnt that also a map for noobs then if you keep the argument you have ? Then you would probaby say, hey, what did you do? allowing him to push up that far? Its the same principle on Hochwald.

I think that its possible to choke down every map if you just play good enough. One example is the Wehr bunker spam or creeping bunkers where you just put bunkers on every chokepoint as soon as you get the chance. I´ve seen it on open maps like Hill. The thing is, I dont complain about the map then, it was me not playing good enough, giving him TIME to close the map. No excuses.

Another point, alot of people complain that if the brits get their hold of the mid mun point its game over since they cand dig in and get at guns and mgs. I´ll try to get Side post a replay showing it is not. There is always the flanking move from the woods and as long as you keep that open you can stall them until you get something heavier. Not allowing the enemy team to dig in is also skill.

I agree with you on one point. Skill includes how to handle every map, or rather every SITUATION and definatly, if you are going to call yourself a good player, know how to play Hochwald. Its definatly worth it.

About the spam Vintage, I think we sorted out that it just wont work against decent players. You are going to lack to many units on the field. See the earlier posts please.

[Nanaki]

Daigle, the point is that winning is not a problem, which I have no problem doing, the point is that the map enforces a few, used-every-damn-time strategies that makes the map incredibly boring after playing it over one too many times.

[Daigle]

Nanaki: Decent point I think. Although, as I mention in previous posts. Isnt the starting on Montargis the same all the time ? Depending on where you start dont you have objectives directly after start ? If allies on the right, you go for the ammo hill. Then you start to push from there. If you are axis playing in the mid you go for the mid or perhaps help out the guy on the left or right. Isnt Route the same ? The two guys on every team up north has to go fast for the road ? What about Hill ? The players on the side cant just try to go for the mid can they ?

Thing is, every map gets repetetive when you find your (for the moment) best strategy. But, when playing good players, theres going the be fights over the high resources since both players see their worth. This is whats fun. It will be really tight and there is no room for mistakes. It becomes like 1v1 since both has to focus everything on it.On Hochwald you usually se 2 times 2v2. This is the fun part. Basically you are going to need a looong buildorder but also keep your units alive. And if he gets in that sweet spot before you and he starts putting a mg up. Dont go charging in. Stay close, dig in and when you are ready, start pushing. One mg you can take care of with one sniper, a bike/jeep or a mortar. A bunker you need perhaps an at, m8 or a shrek squad.

I think that if you played this game long enough, you start to see the same pattern over and over again. But, if you just wanna be able to roam the map like you want, building nice sheds in the small forrests and generally taking it easy, the good players will just focus on what wins the map and you are going to loose. So please, stop this argument that it is too easy to block, playing good players, it is not.