Why Hochwald is the best map EVER

[Vintage]

I think I just played a Hill game where the allies from the south pushed hard on the right and choked the entire right. If thats possible, isnt that also a map for noobs then if you keep the argument you have ? Then you would probaby say, hey, what did you do? allowing him to push up that far? Its the same principle on Hochwald.

No. You just played against a team that was much better then yours (if you lost since you didn't state whether you won or lost). You could have easily taken the left to compensate, locked that down, and then fought over the middle. If the brit player emplacement spammed the right, then the middle would not be difficult to take and left would be a breeze. Players who are good at the "real maps" can easily play the "newb maps" and dominate the players who only play the newb maps 24/7. I do it quite often when I spend 30 minutes looking for a good lobby map and get tired of searching and hop into one of the plentiful Scheldt/Hochwald maps.

On a map like Hill if a team takes one flank, you can take the other, because resources are spread out and a single side will not win you the game. On a map like Hochwald, if you take the island and OP the points on it, you will have more resource income then if they take the entire mainland. Whoever takes the island wins bottom line. There is a lack of strategy to that map. On Montargis if one team takes the middle, you can compensate by taking the fuels on the left flank outside their base and still have even fuel income. If they put too much strength into the middle fuel they may also lose the munitions, which can be game breaking. You have to carefully coordinate with your team and layout a plan for success. On Hochwald the plan is LOLZ RUSH BRIDGES BLOCK WITH TANK TRAP ATTACK ISLAND PROTECT STRAT POINT.

[Daigle]

Guess you wouldnt mind playing one today then, just to prove your point ? How about we get our teams and you can show what you mean on the field ? I promise to post the replay here.

[Vintage]

I would love to play you Daigle. My team usually comes online around 10:00 Eastern U.S. I am not going to be home at that time tonight however, so I will ask them to come online earlier but no promises. We always are looking for a good challenge so I hope your team is good . BTW I can post an infinite amount of amazing replays on Hill or Montherme where you will see strategy and flanking. If you like I will post some. We rarely ever lose to Allied emplacement spam or a team locking down a single flank.

My online names are: Vintage/DoomPiggy. Add me, and also what are yours?

[Daigle]

Too bad they are not on tonight. Yeah sure I can add you. The account i use the most i Moesis right now. Give me a call if you are online and we can play. Always looking for a serious team.

I´m also posting a replay of a decent Hochwald. Everyone can feel free to comment and use the replay as discussion ground please.


Edit: It works.

[BlackOmne]

It sounds like you both want to play the Axis side. Who's going to play which side? I would hope that Vintage's team would play the Allies, if they can, and try to demonstrate how easy it is shut the Axis into their base area.

I wish this game had a spectator option. I would like to see this second hand, so to speak. Not wait for the replay.

[Vintage]

Black you can play on my team when we play Hochwald if you want since we probably won't have a 4th. The other people we play with are Euros and they are usually in bed by 10:00 Eastern.

[FLXleGaulois]

Daigle if you can't upload a .rec file try to zip or rar it.

[BlackOmne]

Vintage,
I would love (and honored) to except for two reasons:
1) My company's Christmas party is tonight (I knew the game doesn't allow spectators and therefore it was all wishful thinking);

2) My online micro probably stinks and I wouldn't want to handicap your team. Even then, if it weren't for the party, I would be there if you needed me.

[alpine]

Because of this thread I was inspired yesterday to play this map, my team won two games in a row by clamping down the enemies foot bridge.


I just shook my head after those boring games and asked myself after how people could play this map.

[Pyro Paul]

I´m also posting a replay of a decent Hochwald. Everyone can feel free to comment and use the replay as discussion ground please.

hahaha... Decent?

2 Newbie US players teaming up with 2 sub standard British players against 3-4 genrally decent axis players... and you know what? They almost won too... Of course i almost stopped watching about 5 seconds into the match. High Resources? Seriously? Are you basing All of your arguments off of a High Resource Start?


the Southern most US player didn't even build a freaking Supply Depot.... and he Went Airborne.

Both US players did not build Heavy armor, or even make an attempt to get any form of Anti tank outside of doctrine given ones, Even though they both ran into Vet 3 Wehr tanks which should of automatically signaled to stop going infantry anti tank and to bust out heavy armor.

one British player went commandos... and despite doing that did not Help in the island at all. the other went RSE and didn't and ignored 'defencive operations' in order to focus on churchills.


there are so many disfunctional low level flaws wrong with the Allied team that it pains me to see that the game lasted as long as it did...

[Daigle]

It just happened to be high resources. I think normal res. is always better, this one just happened to be high res.

Regarding the "noobieness" of the allied players, its always easier to sit in the backseat and drive the car.

Nevertheless, I agree that allies have atm a slightly better chance at winning. Doesnt mean they win all the time. With a little skill as axis its still possible to win this map. OF course you loose sometimes, but thats not all about the map. Can we atleast agree on that ?

[Daigle]

Alpine: There is atleast too ways of preventing that from happening. But you need to figure out how by yourself.

[alpine]

It doesn't matter if there are ways to stop it (I know as we are the ones who inflicted it on them, and we have been stopped before)

The problem is that it can be done! That's a bad map in my book!

[Daigle]

I think there are ways to block ammo hill on montargis or seal off the north on route too. Guess every map is badly designed then ?

[Nanaki]

Both US players did not build Heavy armor, or even make an attempt to get any form of Anti tank outside of doctrine given ones, Even though they both ran into Vet 3 Wehr tanks which should of automatically signaled to stop going infantry anti tank and to bust out heavy armor.

Wait, what?

Even in high level play, Tank depots are relatively rare because Infantry AT (especially Airborne) handles all AT needs, and the British have better tanks for killing Axis tanks anyhow.

Nevertheless, I agree that allies have atm a slightly better chance at winning.

I disagree. Whoever has Team 2 has a greater chance of winning. This does not necessarily mean a win, though, as ive seen some pretty idiotic things from Axis teams who -should- have won quite easily.

"Lets attack the left side!"
"Yeah! Even though there is shit for resources there and our hold over the island is tenuous at best!"
"You guys are morons." - Me.

[alpine]

I think there are ways to block ammo hill on montargis or seal off the north on route too. Guess every map is badly designed then ?

Not a good point. Montargis is an open map, no choke points. Hochwald has 2 ways to get out of your base, and that's it.

[Nanaki]

Also, Montargis does not concentrate over 50% of it's resources in one area. Also, even the ammo dump, which is probably the most chokepointed Montargis gets, there are still -three- ways into it and it will take far more than a single tanktrap to completely block it off.

[Border Patrol]

People don't play 1v1 maps randomly without checking out strats for the map and the same can be useful for large team matches

yes, why yes they do. unless of course they dislike developing their own style of play, and simply play from a playbook... then sure, your statement holds.

[FLXleGaulois]

I think there are ways to block ammo hill on montargis or seal off the north on route too. Guess every map is badly designed then ?

You can block a part of most map, the problem is not: "Is it possible?" but "How much ressources it will take?"

Montargis' hill has 3 ways in which takes much more ressource to lock and it can be cut off easily because it is surrounded by 3 strat points (except with a brit on it but the problem is the brit ressource sharing, not the map) on RN13 you can pass through the hedgerow with some panzershrek/bazzooka shots or crush it with tanks and turn it into something more opened which allow a comeback contrary to hochwald where there is no possible comeback from one side or the other.

[Daigle]

You can block a part of most map, the problem is not: "Is it possible?" but "How much ressources it will take?"

Montargis' hill has 3 ways in which takes much more ressource to lock and it can be cut off easily because it is surrounded by 3 strat points (except with a brit on it but the problem is the brit ressource sharing, not the map) on RN13 you can pass through the hedgerow with some panzershrek/bazzooka shots or crush it with tanks and turn it into something more opened which allow a comeback contrary to hochwald where there is no possible comeback from one side or the other.

I agree on the brit resource problem. But that is how it is on every map and we have to adjust accordingly until it is fixed. But taking your own example, there are ways to destroy the tanktrap and rebuild the bridge too, so thats no argument.

About how much resources it will take, I think two engineers will seal it off pretty good with sandbags so there is only two ways in and going around takes too long, the enemy reinforces. So its still possible. I like montargis too though, its the same principle on the hill as hochwald in a sense where its a tough fighting on the ammo at first. See more why I like the starting phase in my other posts.

Alpine: If you are using the tactics yourself, why are you complaining ? Perhaps you need it to win ? By succeding twice I guess your probably playing inexperienced players since you usally learn the counter in 1-2 matches. The first one to just see it, the other one doing the counter.

Also, Montargis does not concentrate over 50% of it's resources in one area. Also, even the ammo dump, which is probably the most chokepointed Montargis gets, there are still -three- ways into it and it will take far more than a single tanktrap to completely block it off.

Actually its 16 ammo and 20 fuel on the island. There is 10 fuel in the woods and 5 ammo. So if you dont get the island, get the woods. Thats half the fuel on the island, your gonna be behind but its still possible. Also there is two ammo points. One 10 and one 16 which is still open for fightin. If the enemy is on the island, then he has a little less on the others spots so concentrate on them. You dont need to win or try to push as axis, its just a matter of surviving until you can tech up.

[alpine]

Alpine: If you are using the tactics yourself, why are you complaining ? Perhaps you need it to win ? By succeding twice I guess your probably playing inexperienced players since you usally learn the counter in 1-2 matches. The first one to just see it, the other one doing the counter.

I didn't even do the initial blocking, my teammate did with his PE bike.

We did it because we could.

Also, I do not play this map at all, as I said earlier, it's on my no play list, I played out of inspiration from this thread.

I was reminded again what an awful map it is.

[Nanaki]

FYI, its 32 fuel and 16 ammo on the island, all the island's points are all high. The woods points are actually 1/3 of that of the island, which means its completely worthless. Maybe its worth sending an engineer squad to cap if its undefended, but otherwise its a waste of resources and time.

Not only that, but the island allows easy access to two 5 fuel points and one 16 munitions points. The forest only allows access to one 10 mun point and two 5 mun points. One of the 5 mun points is directly connecting to the enemy base's main bridge so its not like you will be able to take it easily. By comparison, the enemy's 5 fuel point is connected by a footbridge which can be rendered unusable with a single tanktrap.

[Daigle]

FYI, its 32 fuel and 16 ammo on the island, all the island's points are all high. The woods points are actually 1/3 of that of the island, which means its compeltely worthless. Maybe its worth sending an engineer squad to cap if its undefended, but otherwise its a waste of resources and time.

No, it is actually 2 times 10 fuel. Or are you seeing something else? Have a look yourself.

The woods isnt useless at all, it provides alot of flanking opportunites. But if you dont get them, the enemy gets them, and then you are 30 fuel behind you also lost the island so thats perhaps how you get your 30 fuel ? There are 2 fuel not accounted for though. Seeing what we talk about earlier, nothing is useless. The flanking gives you good ways to harass or even cut their resources. Dont forget that just having forces there, makes the enemy focus moore troops there instead of just digging in and reinforcing.

Talking about tanktraps, I´ve seen games where the enemy wen around on the left in a kind of sneaky way and managed to block the landbridge with traps. Doesnt mean they won the game but it slowed us down alot. Also the woods give really good flanking of the mid munition on the road.

Alpine: So, your arguing that it is a shitty map and your team uses this tactic and then you are complaining about bad map design ? The problem here is obvious that you are playing players with little or none experience which can easily be fixed.

Perhaps instead of using this tactic on noob teams you get some decent players and then we can talk about if this map is badly designed. As of now, it seems you havent played a regular game on this, you only kettenblocked your way through this map.

[alpine]

Alpine: So, your arguing that it is a shitty map and your team uses this tactic and then you are complaining about bad map design ? The problem here is obvious that you are playing players with little or none experience which can easily be fixed.

Perhaps instead of using this tactic on noob teams you get some decent players and then we can talk about if this map is badly designed. As of now, it seems you havent played a regular game on this, you only kettenblocked your way through this map.

Back when I used to play this map I played good opponents all the time, including those in my own clan. As many others have already pointed out, the poor map design goes beyond blocking one bridge. We did it in that game because we could. The fact that it can be done is a travesty.

The sad reality is that it is only one part of this maps problems.

[Fishy]

This map has to be the most pathetic excuse for a map in CoH, possibly only after Scheldt.

I used to play this map a lot before a started with ranked and it always ends with a shitload of arty and tankspam from both sides. Neither tactical or fun at all.

[Daigle]

Fishy: Please see the other posts about arty spam. Usually it wont work against a good team beacause you will have fewer units on the field to defend. Mostly art spam is when for example allies are loosing and they try to arty from their base, which I have yet to see work. I think the main problem is that you just dont play a serious team. Pickup games is just not how the map was supposed to be played.

Alpine: I think there is the possibility to tanktrap every base if the enemy doesnt defend. In theory its possible while in reality it isnt. So if you against all odds play a good team, you can go on thinking you can do it until they stop you in reality.

Now I wont comment anymore of this "I´m a pro, this is a noobmap" kind of things. Also, leave the talk about too easy to tanktrap. One mg is enough for you too defend it early game. Later you reinforce, thats it. About the kettenblock, there are ways so it CANT be done, if the players complaining about it being to easy to do it instead focused on how to prevent it, maybe you would find out faster.