VRI:What it tought to us?Observations

[phoenixzs]

I think we had a great opportunity last weeks to see some selected guys play each other DOW in particulary good way(Especially after first round of battles).

In my opinion this provides a good deal of balance because they are particulary mid-to-good level of players and we all had the opportunity to see the "SAME" replays.So there is a good database.

The attempt of this thread is not to discuss the whole balance issues in a thread but to point out your observations from these games leading to balance issues.Just your observations
(NOTE: Due to some thecnical problems I wasnt able to see the finals yet)

My main observations about balance were;

-Necrons:Who ever got necrons got very hard time.Even the winning necron game required tremendous amount of skill and bit wrong decisions from the other side.Their early games seems to be a problem and with your opponeny macroing good a lot of units can be avoided.Maybe their start income should be increased other wise I feel they have to ecoboom everytime and build no force realy.

-DE:Dark eldar warrior built couldn't realy got the job done.Perhaps a lot of people didnt do the RJB in the tournament because its very otonom and they didnt want the label "lamer" on their forheads but still the warrior built seems the weak part of the choice tree.

-Eldar....What can I say everytime somebody got eldar they probably grinned at the game begining and absolutely obliterated the other side at the end.I think the "fleet of foot is too hard to master and it only pays of the skill invested" rubbish should end.I wish it had some kind of cool down.And 3 warp spider squads allowed?Its realy annoying I think.

-SM were a bit edgy to play for most players since they are the classic race and somewhat have a cold start.But they were okay in my opinion except the thing that The tournament had to enforce a law that bides eldar to research infintration before T2.Thats clearly a balance problem and has to be solved.

-Tau;I would love to say something about tau but my ideas are abit mixed about them so I leave it to the others.Chaos the same way;I think they were okay after cultist build nerf.

-SOB: many players didnt had very much experience with them but balance wise I think they are okay.They are capable of doing a lot of things but maybe as said earlier the build time of the inferno is a bit long.The good thing is I don't think there is a mono-right way to play them so its okay.

-IG;Were good againist most matchups but they had hard times against other imbalances of other races I think.

-Orks;Were also pretty cool to watch how they handled situations but I couldnt figure out very much imbalances in their match up.I always somehow oriented them as being good in balance terms.

General;Nearly no body built planes except helltalon and lighting fighter I think;Either they couldnt come to that point in tech or they were many better options.And also missile turrets should be surely a good counter to the planes vice versa like in HTalon case is unacceptable.

Hope relic makes a balance only patch for a change not to hammer out bugs they made from the previous patch.

[Chaingun]

From what I posted in another thread:

Top: Tau, Eldar, DE
Mid: IG, Ork, Chaos
Low: SoB, SM, Nec

To be honest there's not nearly enough matches in VRI to determine balance from that. There are 9+8+7+..+1 = 45 possible MUs (including mirrors), which with VRI's ~60-70 games means there is not that many games per MU.

[erkicman]

I'm just going to focus my comments on Eldar, Tau and Necrons.

Eldar:

Reaper-rushing was a very popular choice in this tournament. Other tier-1 units had nothing against them, and they could also hold their own in close combat (CC), which surprises me. Reapers should eat it in close combat, just like fire warriors do. (Reapers do get killed by melee specialists like Raptors, but they can still fight off cultists, scouts, etc). I have two ideas on how to mitigate this: 1 - Make Reapers eat it in CC, as I suggested before. 2 - Nerf reaper cannons on tier 1, but give them an upgrade in tier 2 to make them great again, not unlike CoW for Banshees.

I didn't see it very often myself, but apparently Chaos has nothing against Harlequins. Didn't observe too much here, but apparently Harlequin's kiss has a low cooldown time? I dunno. Maybe hardcap the harlequin to 1 or at least increase the cooldown time on abilities?

I agree with Phoenixzs with spiders; it's usually a GG when trip-spiders come out. If Chaos and IG are only allowed 1 squad of T-3 troops, and Marines are only allowed 1 squad of GK's, why not hardcap spiders to 1 as well?

Tau:

The only problem I saw in the VRI was that FW held their ground in CC against Seraphim. I don't know how bad Seraphim are in CC, but if IG guardsmen can give the FW a good thumpin' in CC, what we saw in the VRI should not have happened.

My personal problem with Tau (nothing to do with VRI, sorry) is that Broadsides can still fire railguns in CC (correct me if I'm wrong?). Broadsides should be tied up in CC, just like any other infantry.

Necrons:

What I saw was that the Necron death march, the race's very play style, no-longer works in this game as much as it should, especially on large maps. Warriors just don't scale up with other race's units, especially if plasma gets onto the playing field. The Necrons can't take the map; in this tournament, they were constantly boxed in by non-Necrons.

For Warriors, give them the armor they had in DC 1.0. But please, don't give them the gauss killing power they had in DC 1.0! (THAT was legitimately broken) If armor won't work, maybe increase the frequency of "get back up"? If defensive strategies balance Necrons up too much, perhaps give Necron Warriors the option of a heavy-weapon upgrade instead - maybe 1 Destroyer-grade Gauss Rifle per squad?

For scarabs, they should definitely be reinforced to 4 or 5 as Vaul said. If map-taking is especially a problem, why not give the scarabs Teleport?

[Orgad_E]

^

Broadsides have the absolutely worst mobility in the game. with 12 speed and around 6 seconds to entrench/detrench, they will never fire their gun if they could get tied in cc. also they have min range which makes them useless unsupported. nad their regeneration is crap. 1 hp/sec on a 2250 hp unit. it will take them more then 35 minutes to regenerate to full health.

the reason the Tau didnt escape the serahphim when they got into CC with them, is that seraphgim fire on the move is stronger then their closecombat. so they CANT be danced. in the VRI he wasnt staying in cc to beat serah in CC, but to delay them until reinforcements arive. remember the serahpim sergent can do around 75 DPS in CC if upgraded.

Necrons indeed need a buff. for early game i suggest HP buff, for late game i suggest an aura around the restored mono, which doubles the chances of ressurction.

[ImmortalChaos]

I don't think it showed anyone who is already very knowledgeable about the game anything in terms of balance issues.

Not to say I didn't like the tourney- heck, it actually rekindled my love for DoW (a little). It's just... it didn't reveal any balance issues that aren't already known.

[alisbin]

ELDAR:
i can't attest to any real expertise, even though they are my primary race, but i agree that warp spiders need a lower hardcap, though i think it should be hard capped at 2. most races get more then one tier 3 elite squad. chaos, SM and IG have 2 different t3 squads (possessed and oblits, ogryns and kasrkins, assault and normal termies), so even though they get only one of each they still get 2 squads to play with, GK are a t2 squad last i checked btw so aren't really related to this. so i have no problem bringing them down to 2 warp spiders, but just 1 would leave eldar late game very weak since warp spiders are the only inf squad that can really deal with enemy heavy_high.
as far as dark reapers go, without doing a total rebalance of them i'd say that the best method would be to have their CC damage brought to about equal to FWs, maybe less, they ARE aspect warriors after all. the other thing would be to decrease their damage vs building_light by around 10% so they aren't quite as devastating to LPs. that way even when they get upgraded to outrange LP2s the defender will have a bit more time to scare them off.
i'd also like to see a slight cost increase for the bonesinger and maybe 4 seconds to its build time.
on the FOF front, i don't think that any change can be made without rebalancing eldar as a whole so i think we're stuck with it as is. the only thing i can think of is maybe setting FOFed units to gain no benefits from cover, but i'm not even sure thats possible.

NECRONS:
i almost never play crons, because their so weak, i like erkicman's suggestion for a higher get up chance, maybe significantly higher and a larger radius. or, if not that, maybe have a chance of power bonus when a cron goes down to indicate that the remains are being TPed back to the tomb to be reused. i also think that destroyers need some serious help, but honestly i have no idea how to fix them.
as far as scarabs go i'm ok with increasing squad size to 4.

Dark Eldar:
again, not a race i play much, but i agree that warriors need some love, if their gonna continue as glass cannons (as i think they should) then their cannon needs to be bigger, OR maybe give them slightly higher fire on the move so they can dance better.

SM:
frankly i think SM need ALOT of love, i'd say that a minor damage and moderate health buffs for both scouts and tacs is the answer, tacs especially. actually i'd LIKE to see massive damage buffs for the basic bolter BUT give it a setup time, not long, maybe .2 or .3, but i don't see that happening. the main thing though is a health buff, they may have heavy_med, but they have very little of it compared to alot of enemy units once upgrades and higher tiers hit the field, even at higher tiers they always are going to be a major part of the SM armada, but they melt against heavy weapons.

[Schmapdi]

on the FOF front, i don't think that any change can be made without rebalancing eldar as a whole so i think we're stuck with it as is.

People always say that - but it doesn't seem that problematic to fix to me. I'm not an expert or anything but to reign it in I'd do the following:
1) Give it like a 10 second limit, but toggleable off early if wanted.
2) The accuracy penalty remains in efffect for 4 seconds after you turn it off.

[Old Painless]

It reminded me i should play more DOW. I want to 1v1 but cant seem to get a game

[Zenny Ark]

I remember in the past dark reapers had a setup time, that would help as well in balancing dark reapers early on, where they outrange nearly everyone and everything, and then proceed to lose no units, or minimum. I also know their LP's cost 80 req, lowest if I recall, leading to the easy teching they pull off at all times.

[Melonplant]

2) The accuracy penalty remains in efffect for 4 seconds after you turn it off.

I was fooling around with necrons and gave them a fleet of foot variant skill. It increased their speed but disabled their firing while it was on and would disable it for 5 seconds after it was deactivated.

I would agree with this nerf, but I think blowing up dark reapers would be a bit easier.

[erkicman]

Wait a sec... they took out reaper setup time in SS?

[alisbin]

i think they took it out in DC,or maybe even back in WA

[ImmortalChaos]

Yeah, reapers lost their setup time back in WA... that was three years ago.

[KotCR]

Back when they used to fire backwards with decent accuracy while moving (though they had no proper animation for it, so they were shooting those little white rockets out their backsides).

Yes, Dark Reapers have been really really ridiculous at times.

[ImmortalChaos]

IIRC there was no animation at all for the firing backwards, you just kinda died strangely while they ran about.

[KotCR]

I think you may be right actually lol.
The Reapers must have eaten a pretty lethal dosage of Baked Beans beforehand.

[simanos]

I think Warp Spiders had no animations/fx for firing while moving.
DR had setup in vanilla and FotM penalty of 100% since WA (so they never fired when moving).
I could be wrong though. I never played WA.

BTW, DR already do as low CC damage as FW. So "their CC damage brought to about equal to FWs" wouldn't change much
Their hitpoints are 20% more though...

[ImmortalChaos]

I don't remember WS ever having animation problems.

Reapers were givin FoTM with all the changes in WA- that was nerfed and eventually removed in WA patches. They never had a setup time after the first though.

[Bowkers]

it showed me that getting a squad that can jump around the field, such as Seraphims and Assault Marines, out soonish and harrass the other person's base can be a massive bonus-usually I dont do that.

[KotCR]

DR had setup in vanilla and FotM penalty of 100% since WA (so they never fired when moving).
I could be wrong though. I never played WA.

Lol, well if you never played WA, don't question those who did .

The massive FotM penalties units now have weren't implimented until Dark Crusade.

But yes, eventually they patched out the retarded fire-backwards-with-good-accuracy-on-the-move mechanics of the Dark Reapers in one of the WA patches.

I don't remember WS ever having animation problems.

Me neither.

[simanos]

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=78778
Brenil, just so you know, reapers are like pre 1.2 warp spyders, they fire on the move, but have no move and fire animation. Look at the enemy they "should" be firing at, you will see them still getting peppered by the little blue bolts over their armour ect.
So pre 1.2 vanilla patch, Warp Spiders did lack a move and fire animation, just like Dark Reapers in Winter Assault.

[4Servant]

300% fof fotm reapers good times, I really enjoyed playing sm/chaos at top level back then ^^,

[Derogator]

Always thought that the Warp Spiders should cost 3 pop cap instead of 2...

[mlai]

Brenil, just so you know, reapers are like pre 1.2 warp spyders, they fire on the move, but have no move and fire animation. Look at the enemy they "should" be firing at, you will see them still getting peppered by the little blue bolts over their armour ect.

So pre 1.2 vanilla patch, Warp Spiders did lack a move and fire animation, just like Dark Reapers in Winter Assault.

The good old days of DOW, when Relic actually added animation to an unfinished unit in a patch (not an expansion). Added game content in a patch!

[VaulSC]

As the host, organiser and shoutcaster for my own little tournament, I had the priviledge of spending a lot of time talking to the players and getting their feedback. I talked the most with KoMMo, but also a lot with santiago, darky, leragpicker, chaos, and anezti. As for thrasher and connman I played a lot of games with them personally after the tournament started.

Immortalchaos is right that the tournament didn't show the players anything new about balance. What is important is that this is the first time there has been any major, in-depth coverage with video commentary for a dawn of war tournament featuring high level players. All the 3v3 quickstart fans from forums like this were able to watch it and form opinions on what higher level 1v1 is really like.

The real consensus is that in terms of balance potential (that's when the races/matchups are in the hands of experts, not noobs), Tau are at the top, followed by Eldar. Things are obscured a little by the fact that Tau are slightly more vulnerable vs some races on some maps than eldar are, but Tau are still > Eldar.

People may not know this, but when doing the tournament invites I sent people a questionaire, and one question was whether they wanted any artificial balance changes imposed. There weren't really any except for no ranger infiltration in tier 1 vs space marines.

The tournament was a tremendous success, but sadly there probably won't be another. If there was going to be another one, I would allow people to pick races (or use another race selection system that didn't involve random race), but impose severe handicaps on eldar and tau.

I would canvass top level players on their thoughts for that, but by just guessing it would be stuff like:

-Dark reapers limited to max 3 squads at a time
-Firedragons can't be transported in falcons
-Only 1 harlequin on the field at any given time (although maybe just vs chaos)

-Tau firewarriors limited to max 3 squads at a time
-only 1 leader for fire warriors rather than 2?
-Some kind of handicap for stealthsuits in tier 2, not sure what

[Danustar]

With respect, your Harlephobia is starting to grate a bit Vaul.
I don't recall Harlequins making any sort of memorable impact - certainly nothing on the scale you keep going on about.
Same with Rangers btw.

It is interesting getting a collaboration of pro opinions on this tho.

[Heathen]

I think Tau are in some aspects superior to Eldar but they're not necessarily superior to the other races, especially melee-based ones. One can't just make a list from "best" to "worst" race based on Tau-can-beat-Eldar, the individual setups are important. And imho if you go for the amount of different setups, the Eldar are still superior.

If we are to see another patch for SS, I'd love to see some buffs for Necron and SM. They really need some help.
And concerning Eldar: I liked an idea I read somewhere: Make Fleet of Foot impossible on Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers.
The main problem with these two units is their enourmous damage output and their immense own hitpoints, while AT THE SAME TIME being able to dance like the rest of the Eldar units. They're supposed to wear (for Eldar standards) very heavy armour. Let's make that show.
For Tau, I'd like the FW Leaders reduced to 1 each (Drone + Shas'Ui) but the shield activation should (if possible) be autocastable to compensate, kinda like in WC3.
That'd make them a bit less powerful while not breaking them apart. Especially the nerf from 2->1 plasma grenade seems important to me. 2 is just too many.
If you have enough squads you can actually blow any melee troops away with grenades alone.

[KotCR]

Actually Danustar, Harlequins are really powerful...not just against Chaos.

Their one of those units that when it comes out, can completely screw the game for you and win it for your opponent. I know we have a couple units like that between all races, but none really more so than the Harlequin in early T2.

I mean SM is another example. To even have the slighest chance of surving vs. Eldar as SM, you pretty much have to use a Force Commander + Scout Sniper build. This can hold you off until T2, well played really well, even against the imba that is Rangers.

The problem occurs though then when T2 comes into play...the Harlequins pops out, and she rapes your Force Commander (they are anti-commander units afterall), and DoDs and obliterates all your Scout Snipers single-handedly (who are totally unable to harm her). You are left with no army whatsoever and so the Eldar win.

You can kill her with massed Tacs, but if you massed Tacs as SM against Eldar, then you already lost before T2 came around. Tacs just can't compete against Eldar range and mobility; The difference is too high between the standards. Scout Snipers can however, as the gap isn't as wide between the range and mobility of the SM and Eldar forces then.

[Sesshyru]

Eldar transports are frustrating >.<

[Rotlung]

To begin with, Dark Reapers didn't even have FoF in tabletop, if that actually matters...

[alisbin]

they also have very heavy armor, so if you want to switch their armor to heavy_medium and eliminate FOF that might be fine, but it also makes them a sort of FW clone...

[phoenixzs]

The problem occurs though then when T2 comes into play...the Harlequins pops out, and she rapes your Force Commander (they are anti-commander units afterall), and DoDs and obliterates all your Scout Snipers single-handedly (who are totally unable to harm her).

Hmm thats strange,I always thought that they are more like an antimass type unit and didnt deal so much damage to the Commanders(But you are right probably,just a bit strange )

Other than that I woudnt balance SM with respect to eldar otherwise we would get a 2nd out of balance race.The eldar tau should be scolded a bit while the necron and SM should get more love.Personally I have hard times aganist SM with sisters.

Personally I dont want the Necron "March of doom-no strategy" version to have a come back.But rather have some strategic investment options to deal with situations.The previous necron was like a straight road where you followed;I would love to have some road that has a crossection at some point.Their dependance on "economic boom" should be cut down a little and they should be a bit more elastic at the begining of the game.

[KotCR]

Harlequins aren't really anti-mass. They are just mass disruption, or rather have a mass disruption ability (similiar to how they have an anti-weak infantry mass ability). They are directly anti-commander however...look at their DPS to Commanders and you'll see.

Other than that I woudnt balance SM with respect to eldar otherwise we would get a 2nd out of balance race.

No I agree, which is why I was defending some of Vauls points about limiting Harlequins.

[Old Painless]

Harlequins are anti everything that isnt commander armour, two or three harlies and you can kiss most of a screen full of infantry good bye in less than 6 seconds.

Stacking kiss of death is absolutely brutal.

[KotCR]

Well, if you've got three they are definetly anti-commander too. Can kiss away any attached squad, and then deliver a combined 270DPS to their commander target of choice. That's tonnes for early T2.

About the only thing they don't hurt really is vehicles.

[VaulSC]

Experienced players (not that I am one) agree that harlequins are too powerful. Same with infiltrated rangers vs sm.

My point about the tournament showing players nothing new still stands. Some people that post on this forum don't play any 1v1 at a reasonably competitive level. Everyone from RN that actually entered this tournament actually lost in the first round in a boringly one-sided 2-0, telling us little about the matchups - no offense to those guys, i'm very grateful that they participated.

It may have been an eye opener for some. What it WASN'T was a 100% accurate cross section of game balance. Just because certain strategies weren't abused to their full extent in a considerable number of VRI games, doesn't mean they aren't imbalanced. You need to be aware of what is going on in Automatch as well as the ESL team leagues.

[Orgad_E]

That's tonnes for early T2.

...

just becuase harlies are available from the start of T2, does not mean u can have 3 of them early t2. they cost 125 power each you know, by the time you get that much power it will be the end of t2.

[PandaMine]

125 power means jack shit for a race that has arguably the strongest eco in the game apart from IG.

You're probably spending 275 power (which is the equivalent of some heavy vehicle) to wipe out the entire opposing forces infantry

That sounds pretty damn good too me, even better then the old Lolbeam, just needs more micro

Also tau is probably only > eldar because tau in earlier tiers is slightly stronger then eldar's earlier tiers, which gives them a needed edge.

In T3/T4 eldar are probably a stronger to make up for it (although if Tau wen't Kayon path, ranged terminator artillery FW's can pose a problem for Eldar)

[ViS]

Try saying "125 power means jack" after you've actually PLAYED as Eldar for a change.

[PandaMine]

When you have 80 req listening posts and 45 req builders, it really aint hard to build those extra 2 or 3 gens

This is T2 we are talking about, not T3 or T4 when Eldar really do start needing power

[ViS]

So pray tell, 165 power gens balances out the 80 req LPs for a race that doesn't have ubercappingspeed? Explain the whole not needing power in T2 thing too. Please.

[PandaMine]

None of Eldar units in T1 needs any power at all?

And yes, 165 power is barely nothing, since you are going to have a max of 4 gens in T2, which is an extra cost of 60 req.

On the other hand, you can have 5,6,7 (or maybe more LP's) which will be constantly destroyed/rebuilt, each saving 20 req.

There are only 2 races with uber capping speed (orks and DE), so I don't really know whats ur point there. You also didn't comment about 45 req builders that have TP's, which speed up the lp'ing process

EDIT:

I mean 165 req compared to 150 req on gens is barely any noticeable difference

[ViS]

Rangers + infil, Reaper Exarchs, FoF, Expensive T2.

SM have fast moving Scouts, Orks have fast capping speeds, IG have fast capping speeds, Tau have invisible jumping units, DE have fast capping speed.

Eldar don't get FoF till the last point is being capped if they go with a 2 Gu build. That means crap early capping speed.

LPs don't get destroyed enough for it to matter if both players are doing it right anyway.

Think about that.

[VaulSC]

Anyone who has any doubts about the power of harlequins should watch this replay. The game was a while ago, but i'm pretty sure I remember the eldar losing until the harlequins arrived. Watch for when they finally catch up to the berzerkers, it's sickening.

http://dowsanctuary.com/index.php?sh...4&#entry400191

[PandaMine]

And eldar have cheap LP's. Difference is that cheap LP's make a difference all the way up until T4, where as capping speeds start becoming negligible.

Likewise scouts having 4 extra movespeed is quite a minor difference, (on small maps its like 10 seconds difference), and once Eldar research FoF every single one of their unit's turn to fast moving cappers.

Again, you did not comment on the 45 req builders, which it seems to be that you are ignoring. Its a well known fact, that Eldar along with IG have the best econs in the game (overall). Orks have to make banners, and a lots of them, which also inevitably will get destroyed and end up having to be rebuilt (at 175 req each thats quite a hefty price), so they may have a nice eco but they have a lot of cost. Same goes with DE and their circles (although not so much of an extant)

Eldar's units have a very cheap cost for what they do. DR's suffer close to 0 losses, where as almost any other race (except for maybe Tau with FW) would be forced to reinforce their squads. Guardians have one of the best cost for HP/Damage ratios for capping units (as well as mysticism and entangle later on). Ranger can render 2 to 3 squads completely useless. Same goes also for Fragons.

You are just looking at the surface of things and theories.

[ViS]

You are looking at the Eldar T1 being pitted against a totally stationary opponent.

[Orgad_E]

You're probably spending 275 power (which is the equivalent of some heavy vehicle) to wipe out the entire opposing forces infantry

125*3 =\= 275. 125*3= 375

its hard to take you seriously when you cant even multiply by 3.


moreover, eldar needs power t2, for optics/armor upgrades, firedragons, vehicles and WS. not to mention vehicles.

45 req builder is too cheap, but thats just 15-30 extra req, seeing as you usually get 1 extra builder.


lps costing 80 is serious, but the eldar will probably not build more then 6, with 5 points and a relic, meaning 120 extra req, not enough for one extra gen.

[KotCR]

But what you're forgetting is that cheaper LPs means you can also start building them quicker as you'll have the econ you need for them quicker, and as you'll be able to start building them quicker, you'll benefit from the increased requisition rate sooner and be able to begin working on the next LP even sooner. Kinda like a chain reaction.

Also, don't forget 'singers can teleport to get around faster to decrease the time with which you have to wait (due to travelling) before you begin LP construction.

EDIT: Typo.

[Danustar]

Yeah no.
The cost of Eldar cappers alone nullifies this - and then some.

Eldar econ advantage is a myth.

[ViS]

Gus are average once again with the Mysticism nerf. They're no longer the ubercappers they're being made out to be.