VRI:What it tought to us?Observations

**KotCR** · 25th Dec 08 5:29 PM

They are still far stronger than all the other cappers in a combat situation though. At least in a DPS role.

(I mean you've got Sluggas and Mandrakes, and against certain targets Cultists too, who are all good in a combat situation, but due to their melee nature they often won't be putting out as much DPS as Guardians tend to still).

And Mysticism was actually buffed; It now gives you more than it did. Rather, it was Warlocks that were nerfed, needing Mysticism now to grant all their squad bonuses except detection instead of only need it for some.

So Guardians as a whole were nerfed, but not Mysticism.

PandaMine · 25th Dec 08 6:15 PM

125*3 =\= 275. 125*3= 375

Wow I did a typo, you going to shoot me?

Eldar econ advantage is a myth.

No it isn't a myth, and is one of the reasons why Eldar are so imbalanced.

You are looking at the Eldar T1 being pitted against a totally stationary opponent.

No I am not

Gus are average once again with the Mysticism nerf. They're no longer the ubercappers they're being made out to be.

They may be average, 45 req builders that TP and 80 req LP's are not "average". They are the cheapest out of all the races

**Orgad_E** · 25th Dec 08 6:32 PM

will you stop bitching about eldar?! i am not an eldar player so im not biased, but hear this: eldar have a "few" imbalances. few. not everything about them is ZOMGIMBA BROKEN RELICSUX. i get the feeling people just enjoy bitching.

3 harlies are NOT early T2, GUs are NOT imba gamebreakers who ruin any 1v1 vs eldar, and reapers is only really imba in some MUs, and even then if you micro better then your opponent you can gain the advantage (eg scout snipers).

just getting sick of reading so many "eldar broken" posts. they are actually a big part of these forums, seeing as around every 1/2 posts contains something about this.

eldar dont win 100% of their games, not even 80%. they win just like any other race. well, maybe a tad more, but not as much as people make it out to be.

PandaMine · 25th Dec 08 6:38 PM

Maybe if you used you're bloody brain you would realise that
1. Most pros refuse to play eldar because its a cheap win for them because they know how imbalanced they are. Its a common fact that mediocre/decent players will always use the most imbalanced races because they want to win, but may not end up winning because they don't have the needed skill
2. Tau and DE happen to be stronger in T1/T2 then Eldar, which as mentioned previously gives them a needed edge in 1v1 MU's. On the other hand, Eldar are a lot stronger then Tau and DE in T3/T4 then Tau and DE are in T1/T2. As soon as you have a team battle, any team with Eldar in it just wins
3. Harlies are early T2, they are build straight from webway assembler, which in T2 is not going to be building anything else, and likewise apart from Eldar's researches, none of Eldar's T1 units require any power at all

**Orgad_E** · 25th Dec 08 7:03 PM

have you read my post? i specifically said

just becuase harlies are available from the start of T2, does not mean u can have 3 of them early t2. they cost 125 power each you know, by the time you get that much power it will be the end of t2.

post #37

you will HAVE TO ACCEPT the fact you WILL NOT have 375 power in the start of t2. to get them all one after the other you will need a +40 power income, aka four generators. i usually get to t2 with 1-2 generators, maybe 3 if the other guy is a noob.

and dont even think about saying eldar can afford a fourth gen because of cheaper LPs. the cash from cheaper LPs goes into the expensive starting gen and some musthave stuff, like FoF.

im replying only to your third point, seeing as the other two dont make any sense.was i talking about de and tau?
??

PandaMine · 25th Dec 08 7:08 PM

Of course you are not going to have 375 power at the start of T2. I never said that Eldar would build 3 harlequins straight away at T2. You can't even fuken build 3 harlequins in T2 because they build from webway assembly and have a build time of 30 seconds

One harlequin is already enough trouble in T2, being able to wreak havoc against 1-2 squads. While the opponent is trying to deal with you're harlequins you bring out another, and then another so by the end of T2 you're opponents will have no infantry in fighting condition, and fragons easily take care of any vehicles

Seeing you're posts on wanting to buff devil fish and all the other crap that you have posted in the forums, I am much more likely to believe the top DoW:SS players who agree that Eldar are imbalanced, and that harlequins/Fragons are one of their biggest problems then you who thinks that everything is hunky dory and is balanced

**Orgad_E** · 25th Dec 08 7:12 PM

i didnt say eldar are balanced. i said they arent as imbalanced as you make them out to be.

again, read.

PandaMine · 25th Dec 08 7:19 PM

No they are as imbalanced as I made them out to be

I never said that Gaurdians are omg wtf imba, I said they have one of the best cost ratios for a capper, and that Eldar have 45 req builders and 80 req LP's, something that everyone seems to be ignoring.

The saving of 45 req builder more then makes up the cost difference of GU's compared to other races, nothing can compare to 80 req LP's

Fragons/DR's/Harlequins all have major balance issues, you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise

hicks_91 · 26th Dec 08 9:56 AM

I think in a game with 9 races, it's pretty hard to be completely balanced, but my thoughts on the matter

guardians seem ok, the fact they're pretty strong as a capper is nullified somewhat by their cost bringing them into line, if you want them to reach their potential you need Fof(50/50), warlocks(55/15),nades(25/75) and mysticsm (125/65), thats rather a lot of power (205 in total), just 20 short of going tier 2 and for a race whose gens are pretty costly its often not worth it just for a T0/1 capper unit to become effective - reapers are in that way cheaper.

The only nerf i'd introduce is maybe reduce the hardcap of spiders from 3 to 2 and maybe up their cap cost from 2 to 3, other than that all you've said e.g 3 harlequins i can't honestly say would be a massive problem because what you've spent on them 3 units, the enemy has built stuff to counter.

**Orgad_E** · 26th Dec 08 10:40 AM

+1 on reducing the hardcap of WS to 2, and increasing pop to 3.

a much needed fix actually.

PandaMine · 26th Dec 08 4:26 PM

Actually, "pros" don't use Eldar because they can use Tau, DE and Orks instead, all of which are a helluva lot stronger than Eldar.

I already explained, that DE and Tau are stronger then Eldar in T1 and T2, which is why they are used more often in 1v1 MU's (im not sure what you are going on about orks here).

I am talking about Pros that play pub games, will rarely pick Eldar simply because it is no challenge to them

hicks_91 · 27th Dec 08 3:57 AM

Why don't you guys settle it, vis as orks pandamine as eldar and see what happens

And i play quite a lot with DR in 2v2s (with hitman usually as my ally) and i'm yet to see a high standard player refuse to use eldar because they're broken and there's no challenge, i mean panda you're acting like eldar are a LOLIWIN button when it's not like that.

PandaMine · 27th Dec 08 4:00 AM

Have you played the MU yourself at a high level? Ork > Eldar reps aren't consistently posted because it just happens so damned often.

That "argument" can be said for any race.

I have not played MU at high level, but I have seen many replays, and if the Eldar player is competant there doesn't seem to be anything that suggests Ork's totally rip eldar a new one in that MU.

For the last god damn time, I have already said why Eldar is not a One win button, and that is because DE and Tau are stronger then Eldar in T1/T2, so its not always fully seen

**VaulSC** · 27th Dec 08 4:30 AM

You guys need to talk to players that are really skilled at this game more often. I'm sure that if you did a survey of players and teams doing well in the ESL you'd get a pretty solid consensus.

PandaMine · 27th Dec 08 4:42 AM

And that brings us to the beginning where many of those players agree that Tau/Eldar are imbalanced

**Flagg** · 27th Dec 08 5:40 AM

ViS, have you nothing better to do than walk into threads and start arguments?

I still think Eldar are way over the top, everything from FoF to Reapers large range to cheap builders to Harlequins to Fire Dragons to 3 squads of Warp Spiders. Seriously, why do they get three teleporting Elite squads compared to everyone else getting two elite squads?

**D-coy** · 27th Dec 08 5:51 AM

I'd be really happy to know, along with Flagg, why Eldar need 3 elite squads 2 pop each. As you might have guessed I'm new, yep. Nevertheless, I'd like to know.

Would you please tell me, instead of dodging questions all the time? Would you be so kind and teach us? Thanks in advance.

Cheers

**ViS** · 27th Dec 08 6:40 AM

They don't but that's not the point of this discussion. We're not discussing 4v4s on Oasis of Sharr here. Early game is what matters and that's where Elf falls apart the most against Orks and Tau.

**Orgad_E** · 27th Dec 08 7:54 AM

to support vis i can say: as a tau player i can testify i rarely lose 1v1s vs eldar, and as an eldar player... well i dont play enough eldar to know if they always lose to good orks... however tau have a hard time vs orks.

**ImmortalChaos** · 27th Dec 08 11:31 AM

Why don't you guys settle it, vis as orks pandamine as eldar and see what happens

This.

I'm seriously considering putting Panda on ignore until I see a thread in the battle archives where he actually ballsed up and played a single round of the game he likes to spew so much about.

PandaMine · 27th Dec 08 4:27 PM

And I would like to see some replays with evidence demonstrating what ViS is actually saying.

I'm seriously considering putting Panda on ignore until I see a thread in the battle archives where he actually ballsed up and played a single round of the game he likes to spew so much about.

This won't prove anything, because ViS is probably a better player then me, seeing as how I have only started playing for like half a year. If you wan't some proof for playing, why don't u ask ViS to verse a pro as ork and see if he wins and provide some replays.

Why don't you put KoTR on your ignore list as well? Did you verse him as well, raping him with lightning fighters and nightwings? Is there any serious reason why I am being picked out?

I have looked in DoW sanctuary and the battle archives, seen nothing that suggests what ViS is saying

to support vis i can say: as a tau player i can testify i rarely lose 1v1s vs eldar, and as an eldar player... well i dont play enough eldar to know if they always lose to good orks... however tau have a hard time vs orks.

No comment, I always said that Tau rape Eldar in MU.

Also people have to realize that Relic never said that they officially and only balance for 1v1 blood river games

hicks_91 · 27th Dec 08 4:38 PM

But panda, you're asking people to accept your points, which is contradictory in the most to the more established members of the community who have proved their skill so are relied on for the most part to make fair comments on balance (i.e vis), without demonstrating your own ability. If you want to be taken seriously now you're going to have to put your money where you mouth is and actually fight

PandaMine · 27th Dec 08 4:44 PM

Actually, the only person that has completely disregarded my point, about Orks completely ripping Eldar in 1v1 MU is ViS (which seems to be the reason why people wan't to suddenly verse me).

ViS is actually known to post crap around on the forums without any arguments or backup, after reading a lot of the other threads. I wouldn't say ViS is an established member, he may be a great player.

Seriously if someone can post a fuken replay proving what they are saying I would accept that I am wrong, but no one has done that. Why the hell should I have to verse someone to prove myself, when there are plenty of tournament replays giving more then enough evidence of what happens.

It also seems to be im the only person that has ever been asked to "fight" for "proof", even though numerous people share the same thoughts I do.

I would like to see where you're claim of "everyone" disagrees with me

hicks_91 · 27th Dec 08 4:59 PM

This is so OffT but if you insist
1
2
Few in the sob thread too but i really can't be bothered looking.

now on topic

I've had the privilege of talking to (and fighting) members of the number one (at the moment) ESL clan, DR, and after discussions mainly with hitman, the main problem with eldar is such

Fof combined with a no gen, 3 DR build can wreak untold havock upon most races, allowing eldar map control and then gg as they tech to victory.

However, orks have invisible (cheap research of course) builders, and buildings that shoot back, meaning dark reapers lose some of their potency as they cant harass builders and gens which is one of their halmarks,without taking casualties that render such a tactic cost ineffective.

Upon the open battlefield, shoota boys with a bigmek attatched with sluggas forcing the reapers to dance can inflict some pain upon them (which is why banshees are often a better option here, combined with liberal use of guardians)

I don't think orcs vs eldar is too bad a match up to be perfectly honest though,it all would come down to the skill of the player in question

PandaMine · 27th Dec 08 5:55 PM

That doesn't make sense.

DR like outrange all of ork's building guns (banners, da boyz hut etc etc all have 25 range, DR has 30). Once DR gets optics uprade, things get even worse. They may not be able to harrass gens, it doesn't stop DR from harassing banners and whatnot from safe range. You only need a single squad of guardians as well to detect the builders

Also both those links don't prove anything. The first link for example, the guy didn't even read my post and thought I was saying something totally opposite to what I was actually saying

**dtitov** · 27th Dec 08 6:26 PM

Panda all you have is theorycraft.
Ex. Elf < DE in T1,T2 ? LOL.

About the only thing i think that was dead obvious from VRI is that crons are the weakest race ATM and Eldar is the strongest. And while latter is (somewhat)debatable former is not.

PandaMine · 27th Dec 08 6:34 PM

Ex. Elf < DE in T1,T2 ? LOL.

Heard of Reaver Jet Bikes?

You know the things, that cost like nothing, and have like vehicle low armor, and like can be spammed, and like can decap any point in a second, and like totally rip every race to shreds in T1.

Oh and we also have 30 movespeed hellions that have jump and targeting laser.

And until anyone shows replays of themselves playing, what everyone says is theorycraft

**ViS** · 27th Dec 08 6:43 PM

Heard of massed LP2s + mines and Reapers? Emphasis on the mines here. On tight maps with points that aren't spread all of the player (most of them), DE have it quite hard early on unless the Elf doesn't know what he's doing. DE can't lose ANYTHING in T1 as they're quite slow to tech with the standard RJB BO.

**dtitov** · 27th Dec 08 6:47 PM

First of all. Bikes weren't THAT much of a problem before the patch(i remember a replay by i think cha0s where 6 bikes dies on 1 mine...lol). After the patch....Have you read the change log(it is obvious that you don't actually play the game that much) ? I am sorry buddy but i actually play the game and i happen to play DE as my main as well as keeping a close eye on replays of any good players that feature DE on gr/dowsanc so i am actually not talking out of my ass. This will conclude my conversation with you.

PandaMine · 27th Dec 08 6:49 PM

The build time on RjB's was increased by 2 seconds, wow

**ViS** · 27th Dec 08 6:53 PM

2*6=12

12=MOAR MINES

PandaMine · 27th Dec 08 6:54 PM

Umm no?

- Haemonculus Lab requisition cost increased to 200 requisition/50 power.
- Reaver Jetbike build time increased to 2seconds.
- Hall of Blood cost reduced to 225 requisition.
- Gruesome Display addon now grants a small detection radius to the Slave Chamber.
- Cruicible of Malediction duration reduced to 6 seconds.
- Scourages minimum broken time reduced to 5 seconds.
- Raiders damage against vehicles increased by 10%.

That was the only nerf that RjB got?

If you don't spread your RJB's out and they all get destroyed on one mine, then yeah thats enough said.

**dtitov** · 27th Dec 08 6:54 PM

ViS. Honestly man why do you bother with him ? Either way. Of things to note even this guys does not argue necron up. Heh. Yet some people still cackle with glee when they stomp poor crons into dust. I guess res orb on warriors really hurt some feelings back in DC 1.0

**ViS** · 27th Dec 08 8:02 PM

That 25 req delays DE's second LP by a huge margin. It was already delayed to begin with but this pretty much prevents it from being built until the first one is complete with the 50 req bonus on most maps.

As for mines, a critical mass of bikes, Hellions and Drakes is what prevents mines from being laid early game. That 12 seconds allows an extra mine to be completed within that window since the Eldar player has one less bike to worry about in most cases.

PandaMine · 27th Dec 08 8:59 PM

All the nerfs did is prevent bikes from being auto win against any race. Hellions are still going to prevent DR from being able to do or shoot anything. All it means is that you are going to have a slightly stronger eco at the cost of your rjb's coming out 10-20 seconds later? You can also make a 3rd hellion instead of the rjb, hell you could probably hellion spam to completely stop Eldar from capping and making mines/DR useless

As for the mines, its not 12 seconds in one go, its 12 seconds gradually over like 1 minutes. At the point where an extra mine will just destroy one jetbike and you already have 6 out, I hardly think that is a big concern

**Orgad_E** · 27th Dec 08 9:10 PM

with eldars DR, who the ***k needs mines.

DR do over 7 dps to veh_low for some stupid reason, as i mentioned earlier but ppl prefered not to read. means the bike will get smoked pretty quick.

DR also rock vs infantry, so its a win-win situation for eldar (not auto win, just always have a chance with this BO).

**Weavern** · 27th Dec 08 10:23 PM

I have deleted a crapload of posts. If you cant play nice, dont post. If you cannot properly respond to one another's arguements, then dont post either. I dont care what level of skill you have the shit that went on here previously ends now. IF people want a thread to die out, then stop posting in it instead of trying to act like babies and throwing dung. Similarly "I R MORE SKILLED SO I RIGHT" is not an answer, neither is mindless number addition to prove your point. Replays were turned on for this forum for a reason. If you think something's based on your view point then properly demonstrate it with a replay. Play against those who disagree with your viewpoint and demonstrate it.

Lastly if you feel your post was deleted unjustly then, act your age, and properly explain why you werent acting up through the private message system. If however you are just going to send crap, dont bother because its a rather easy way to get yourself thrown out an airlock.

PandaMine · 27th Dec 08 11:19 PM

with eldars DR, who the ***k needs mines.

DR do over 7 dps to veh_low for some stupid reason, as i mentioned earlier but ppl prefered not to read. means the bike will get smoked pretty quick.

DR also rock vs infantry, so its a win-win situation for eldar (not auto win, just always have a chance with this BO).

Thats what hellions are for

**dtitov** · 27th Dec 08 11:59 PM

Which just as well die to DR. Duh.

It's rather simple DR > All DE has at the same tiers. Add plats an you can win with just DR even in tier 3.

PandaMine · 28th Dec 08 12:12 AM

Yes because a unit that can outrun DR even with FoF, has 2 jumps and heavy high armor with 550 HP is just going to "die to dr"

**dtitov** · 28th Dec 08 12:27 AM

no, because there will be more DR squads then hellions+bikes.

**ViS** · 28th Dec 08 12:31 AM

The best approach is to simply mass LP2s and use DR to force them near you. Attack from range and kite their bikes while pulling the Hellions and Drakes into the range of your LP2s.

It has to be said. On large maps, Elf might as well just quit.

**mlai** · 28th Dec 08 4:10 AM

Overall, SS was never very imba in the first place. It's the most non-imba game in the franchise. Sure, there are still some stupid things going on such as Squiggy-weight Fragons, or the uneven power of air units... but either those things don't affect the 1v1 metagame too much, or are late tier so don't affect 1v1, etc.

(Not saying that this makes SS a good game... just that it's not too imba.)

Therefore, small changes like adding 2 secs to RJB build time do make a difference at high level play. Not a huge difference that affect all 9 races on all maps, no. Just more balance.

Similarly, any talk such as "omg Orkz rape Eldar imba imba" is also unjustified. Orkz certainly do not rape Eldar in SS 1.2, the way Eldar raped Orkz in DoW any version. Basically Eldar now actually has to work for a win, and might lose --gasp--, and actually change his BO when he knows his opponent is a good Ork. So everyone should listen to Hicks and stop exaggerating to prove a point.

hicks_91 · 28th Dec 08 4:38 AM

I think 2 seconds to build time is an excellent idea, it doesn't seem mcuh of a change (some of the most important changes never do) but all them 2 seconds will add up, and overall give players a better chance of countering them (i still don't know why vehicle class armour is justified for a t1.5 unit anyway!)

**ViS** · 28th Dec 08 5:05 AM

Mlai, are you serious? With the top four races (Tau, Orks, Eldar, DE in that order) having next to no chance of being beaten by most of the other races in a match among equals, how could you call this game nearly fair? It's more balanced than the other DoW titles, sure but that does NOT make it "not too imba".

hicks_91 · 28th Dec 08 5:12 AM

It's hard to balance a game with 9 races though, i mean thats been pretty much unprecedented in an RTS before now, with either using the warcraft2 style balance where everything is pretty much equal and opposite, or giving a race its own flavour and hoping for the best like in starcraft.

I often think relic just made an upper tier of races and balanced them against each other for competitive play, with the rest mostly being relegated for use by fanboys or multiplayer

**mlai** · 28th Dec 08 5:51 AM

@ Vis:

Yeah, I'm srs. Basically what Hicks said immediately after your post.

4 races out of 9 being used in top lvl play... honestly that's pretty good... it's 1 more race than SC (not that it's as balanced as SC, nor does the game have as many strats available... due to all the dumbing-down over the years...).

However, in mid-good lvl play (not top lvl), game is pretty balanced. The problem with current top lvl play in SS is lack of options... 1-2 strats is OP for each race and that's all that race uses and that's all it takes to make that race "top tier." Lack of internal balance and internal options at top lvl play... like I said, this game isn't that good. Giving each race an OP strat/BO so that all races can be on the same tier... it really won't make the game "better."

**edbop** · 28th Dec 08 6:34 AM

eldar can loose. i'm mainly a team game player but have started playing more 1v1s recently. they are by no means a free win. and have a few disadvantages to other races especially on certain maps. mainly because they have no jump troops until ws, which come too late for harrassing.

i thought the vri showed that if you use a race to it's full and out play an opponent then any race can be beaten.

it seems though some people expect one or two strategies to work vs all 9 races.

**phoenixzs** · 28th Dec 08 9:56 AM

After watching the last finals at last my ideas about the Dark reapers are more clear now

;

Although Le Ragpicker pulled the match with tremendous effort that battle was clearly favoring eldar due to dark reapers.

Actually in those 5 games batch we could clearly see that the eldar player only built DR squads and micro them well and even didnt need CC units or other units.My observations are;

-They outrange LPs which is a huge advantage in my opinion.
-They can outrun anything like all eldar do and shoot back(This is most obvious but it doesnt bother me that much anymore)
-They deal quite well with enemy commanders.(That bothers me actually with all around good units dealing with any infantry armor kind I think they should deal very low damage aganist commanders)
-Unlike Firewarriors they are quite resillant to CC and like with Seraphims take quite a hit before they fall.

I agree that 9 races is a lot of "fun" for the developers to balance it out

but still some obvious things like a race building only one unit type doing nearly everyjob is a mistake that should be hammered out a bit dont you think?

The game is playable but still a balance only patch with those obvious issues(plane balances,Fragoons,TauFW spam) hammered out a bit would be great and I appriciate that they didnt turn The RJB into a piece of crap but rather took an intelligent approach to the core of the problem.

**Xanthian** · 28th Dec 08 7:52 PM

My personal problem with Tau (nothing to do with VRI, sorry) is that Broadsides can still fire railguns in CC (correct me if I'm wrong?). Broadsides should be tied up in CC, just like any other infantry.

Thankyou. Thankyou thankyou thankyou thankyou thankyou. Freaking thankyou. I thought I was the only one. Alternatively, make it so that broadsides can only fire when entrenched, like heavy weapons teams. Unless you're an army with good bolters, there are very few cost-effective ways to attack broadsides entrenched or not, let alone supported broadsides, and ignoring them isn't an option.

Wouldn't hurt if broadsides also had morale when unentrenched and couldn't entrench when broken. Just so that there's actually some way of catching them with their pants down.

Upon the open battlefield, shoota boys with a bigmek attatched with sluggas forcing the reapers to dance can inflict some pain upon them (which is why banshees are often a better option here, combined with liberal use of guardians)

I don't think orcs vs eldar is too bad a match up to be perfectly honest though,it all would come down to the skill of the player in question

Banshees aren't realy lethal until they turn into cowshees. Big shootas rape them pretty hard, as does the mek, as do building guns. If Eldar needs tie-up, they have the farseer, bone singers (with teleport) and guardians to fall back on. That's why nobody builds banshees; because they don't serve any purpose other than melee dps, when EVERYONE prefers ranged dps.

As Panda said, however, dark reapers do horrific things to ork buildings. Hell, I can't count the number of times I've had a reaper fleet of foot past my lp2, pog and wb2, to take out an lp1, decap the point, and bring down a gen, while I'm still trying to chew through an eldar lp2 and his other reaper squad with my entire army. Grots can't tie up what can't see them. It's a joke. Ork buildings are PAPER. The gens have 750 hitpoints. Which is to say, barely more than the reaper exarch.

Combined with the fact that you always have to build two stormboy squads before tier 2 to counter the fd+fgt that will come in and make all your banners r belong to Taldeer, and pretty much are stuck dancing around your own buildings if he builds a farseer, until the farseer uses mind war on the mek so he can garrison to shed it, Orks have a much harder time harassing eldar than the other way 'round. Doesn't hurt that shootas copped yet another nerf when already they only stood a chance on maps with cover vs eldar to begin with.

VRI:What it tought to us?Observations

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