VRI:What it tought to us?Observations

[lackofcheese]

I think that broadsides when entrenched are fine, because they can't dance and so a decent melee unit will still deal good damage to them, even if they can't tie them up.

Unentrenched, I think they should still do damage because they're so slow. It's just a matter of balancing the amount of damage they do, IMO.

[Derogator]

Ork buildings are PAPER. The gens have 750 hitpoints. Which is to say, barely more than the reaper exarch.

It's part of the race quirk. All ork buildings have about half the normal health of equivalent buildings of other races. To compensate they have a 5 HP regen per second while not in combat. Plus they have their own little turrets, except for generators. I'd trade the 5HPper second from the generators to double their health any day though...

[Orgad_E]

yes but would you give up the guns? i dont think so.

[Derogator]

yes but would you give up the guns? i dont think so.

Ork Generators don't have guns...

[Orgad_E]

ok mr.smartmouth would you give up MOST of your building shooting to double ALL of theirs hp? again, i dont think so.

[Derogator]

ok mr.smartmouth would you give up MOST of your building shooting to double ALL of theirs hp? again, i dont think so.

All I said was that I'd rather trade the 5HP per sec regen (while not in combat) from the Ork Generator to double it's HP. The other buildings are fine. Again, I'm only talking about the Generator here.

[Titler]

As a dedicated Ork from DoW 1.0, but who admittedly hasn't played Soulstorm, I'd like to say yes, yes I would give up the guns, and yes thus give up a lot of the Orky character of the buildings in exchange for normalized hitpoints. Because do you have any idea how frustrating it is to see any of a number of cheap shots destroy your base in under a minute, such as the dreaded Wraithlord mass march, or the sudden appearance of Mr Orbital Bombardment Bearer, usually by drop ship if you've not covered all possible Line of Sight somehow..? Thus ensuring that the already limited Ork maneuverability and detection abilities are further proscribed because your own base is so much more vulnerable than your opponent's, and you need to keep him out of it at all costs.

And beyond Tier 1 the Grot armed gunz on the roof don't do all that much anyway; usually they just end up out-ranged by your opponents. Waaagh banners with Rokkitz if massed can help, although it increases micro considerably to get them all efficiently firing on useful targets (especially with the Orky inaccuracy rate; you need that knockdown to work consistently against those troops with the base bashing powers), and they still remain paper-thin in armor comparatively even when upgraded fully... against decent players in 1v1 I'd often dare not deploy them forward, because losing them not only costs you money but de-techs you as well. And the Necron Lord in particular can just paralyze buildings, turning even that one small advantage of extra gunz entirely against you, as now it can't defend itself, forcing you to do it directly.

Now if you could garrison some of them like IG buildings (and apparently Wartrukkz in SS?) and add your own guns to the fire too... or you halved the cost and build time of some of the Ork buildings, three quartered lets say the gun DPS, but required Orkz to build more of them for the same utility (so 1 Pile O'Gunz builds only half as slowly, but 2 combined gives normal build speed) thus increasing total hitpoints and survival chances (and mass ramshackle cities being more orky) then yes, I'd agree with still having paper thin buildings with a grot stuck on the top. But against the Emperor's finest as the game currently is? With people behind them who spend years finding every possible weak point to drop them into?

No, it's a bit annoying actually. Seriously. It is. Especially when Orks don't in DC at least have an equally stand-off base-bashing power. The Dok Bomb can be disarmed even once triggered, unlike Orbitals. Does the Fighta Bomba in Soulstorm have greater anti-building than it's comparatives? That might be a way to balance SS, as that would give freedom of movement too. But as it is, after years of DoW and realizing that no, those building gunz don't really help all that much, and Orkz mostly getting the face end of the squig-stick I just didn't have the heart to find out.

[ImmortalChaos]

Orks would probably be a really underpowered race with the guns removed even if the building hitpoints were tripled to compensate. They seriously rely on them heavily early game; most races can mass stronger troops a lot faster than orks. They'd just get steamrolled into their base, and the extra building hitpoints wouldn't really be able to help at all. Late game they can become a vulnerability... but it's not like orks are on the low end of the teir list or anything.

I mean, orks could be totally rebalanced to compensate... but hey, that's what DoW2 is for.

[Orgad_E]

actually, you kill the fc = you kill the OB

[Compeador]

You guys have the entirely wrong idea for eldar's eco. Eldar has one of the most easily harrassed ecos of all the races and a quite slow start. Just accept that one, because I'll tell you what makes eldar's eco ridiculous.


Eldar gets second globals in tier 2. So does Tau. That means a normally ~ 104/60 eco (with all points capped and LP'd and LP2'd) after two globals becomes 150ish/90ish eco. Whoa unto you if there's also a thermo on the map as eldar will ALWAYS get it early t2 making the req global so much easier to buy.

The problem with eldar eco isn't in tier 1, cappers are fine the way they are (except ork, but that's a different story). It's with t2. In most of my games I'll ecoboom in t1 bc I know in early t2 the first things I'll be getting are the globals, maybe 1 harly, then the support portal, a falcon, and the 2nd globals. Within 3 minutes of play I've almost doubled my eco. THAT is the problem.


And don't forget, same thing with Tau. Thing about them is they can also tech faster while they ecoboom bc their hard hitting t2 units don't cost any power.

As for Warp Spiders, if an eldar player gets warp spiders in tier 2, he's staying in tier 2. Their power costs and build times are economically prohibitive, even with the previously described global income imbalance. They're outdamaged and outshot by almost any other ranged specialist 1v1, and don't have any disruption abilities (such as sm and csm frags, ig nades, etc). They have a high cost and thankfully high HP, but horrible morale. Before optics 2 and armor 2, they're completely limited to hit and run attacks, which I believe is the entire reason people complain about them... is bc they can't figure out how to kill them. Take solace in the fact that even with 3 warp squads, the eldar player still greatly fears your ranged army. SM for example, supposedly eldar's "easiest" matchup and "unwinnable" for sm. 2 tacs with 3 HB's and 1 rocket each, frag nades. GK's. Chappy, FC, and Libby/rhino (whichever you choose). If the "dreaded" 3 squads of warps jump in, you have demo shout, 2 frags, psychic inquisition, heros to tie with, probably FC's inspiring aura, probably smite/a rhino with smoke to take less damage, chappy's healing, and 2 or 3 really uber commander plasma pistols. Within 5 seconds of the warp spiders "AHA HAVE AT THEE!" almost half of them have died and one sqaud is demo shouted. Someone with more time on their hands run up the costs for all the stuff that I've mentioned keeping in mind that the 2 tacs and FC will probably be left over from tier 1 and THEN tell me if warp spiders are really so ridiculous.




As far as orks buildings go, that was discussed heavily in WA and DC, the resulting changes being waaagh banners detecting, the pop requirement for a blastier banner, and a reshuffling of pop requirements for different units. Orks are still the strongest race in the game vs all their matchups on almost all maps. They have unaddressed imba advantages such as mek's full charged teleport from the start, cheap commander that loses 1v1 to all others besides nec lord, but with 4 sluggas more than handles any other commander. huge eco advantage in t1 bc of building guns, and the mob bonuses are not very well understood by lesser players and fully exploited by higher level players to drastic effect. Ork is STROOONG. I would really say "Strongest".




Tau.... oh Tau. Tau is Eldar on easy mode with more get out of jail free cards than Milton Bradley's printing press, completely broken beyond any hope of fixing and should be done away with in any competitive scene if I had my way. And that's not just bc I play eldar as a main, if anyone remembers I autoed Tau to #1 in DC for a while, before I autoed eldar to #1. Eldar was 10x's harder to get #1 than tau was.








/end rant.
/end book.

[KotCR]

The Dok Bomb can be disarmed even once triggered, unlike Orbitals

As Orgad mentioned, killing the Force Commander will kill the Orbital Bombardment. I'm not sure but it's possible killing the Relay may stop the OB also. It'll stop the SM using it in the firstplace, at the very least. It's not that tough a building (and Orks got plenty of nice building smashers).

If you don't fancy your chances at killing the Force Commander (he does have quite alot of HP and is probably shielded by some Termies), you can always just knock him down. If you knock down the FC at any point during roughly the first half of the Orbital Bombardment, it will stop the Bombardment. Possibly even beyond the first half, but I know that at least I've had my Bombardment's ended only halfway through due to an FC knockdown.

Even if you KD him before he actually gets to start it proper, it'll also still have to begin it's recharge cycle again. Burna Bomb deployment is more or less instant, and it's far more potent than OB anyway.

EDIT: Sorry Orgad, lol. Probably was tired when posting. It's fixed .

[Orgad_E]

KotCR, fix your post. i did not say

The Dok Bomb can be disarmed even once triggered, unlike Orbitals

that was titler who said that, :P

[Titler]

And Titler also said "The Dok Bomb can be disarmed even once triggered, unlike Orbitals" which means once it's placed, and you've paid for the power and the animation starts, the Dok Bomb can still be stopped, by shooting the bomb, but once the Orbital Bombardment begins, I don't believe killing Mr Force Fiend stops the bombardment...? I can keep him on his ass for a fair while, just as the Dok can be, but he just needs to get up and do it once and the bombardment begins, where as the Dok can still be neutralized even if he triggers the power off. And then those paper buildings go pop, guns or no guns. (And only the Waaagh banner upgraded to Rokkitz, as I mentioned, will perform knockdown)

I also agree with Compeador that Orkz aren't that weak in troops, even from the start; Big Mek in a slugga mass, or Flamers on a second squad of Boyz actually helps enormously from the horror that was DC1.1, at least until the Grey Knights show up or the Eternal Plasma Problem. No, the problem with troops getting into your base is not that I can't fight them effectively outside, it's that the damage that they can do once they are in there, as the buildings fall so damn fast, and your opponents if you are in a base race won't, because they last much, much longer. Later on, around Tier 3 with the WHOPPA POWAZ the same problem re-occurs... it's only really when you get full Nobz with Klaws that you get roughly equal base-beating power again.

[KotCR]

but he just needs to get up and do it once and the bombardment begins,

No he doesn't. That's what I'm saying. He needs to stay on his feet for a fair while even after it begins to gain the full benefit from it, otherwise it will end, and you'll only get a few blasts from it, if any.

Most of the time, the blasts will knock infantry back so they don't recieve the full destruction of the OB as is. But as the Burna Bomb does all it's damage in one fell swoop, it tends to be alot more destructive to mobile units than an OB is.

Also, with the masses of units and pathing issues going on that you'll tend to find around the time you have a Dok Bomb up (unless your trying it as a last ditch effort to win), taking the Bomb out isn't as easy as it sounds.

[Xanthian]

The dok bomb is point blank, orbital bombardment can be aimed even where you can't path.

The dok bomb costs energy, orbital bombardment is free.

The dok bomb slaughters infantry; orbital bombardment would be lucky to break a competent player's squad.

The dok bomb has a faster recharge than orbital bombardment, by far.

If you destroy an orbital bombardment, it still does something. If you destroy a dok bomb, it does nothing, not even disruption.

Orbital bombardment rapes buildings, the dok bomb doesn't do anywhere near as much base destruction.

Orbital bombardment used intelligently cuts off someone's escape entirely. Stormboys can do the same, but a dok bomb can't, unless it's planted in the middle of the ork army so it's hard to target.

It's a little apples to oranges in that orbital bombardment is probably best compared against abilities like eldritch. Where the advantage would seem to be with eldritch...

A dok bomb is probably better compared to something like a harlequin's kiss of death. Which is tier 2, has no arming time, is free, has individual cooldowns on all units, has similar problems with being placed, but does less damage.

Now if you could garrison some of them like IG buildings (and apparently Wartrukkz in SS?)

Heh, I wish. Flash gits or 2x big shoota squads able to fire from a trukk like DE on a raider? Definition of imba, right there. Talk about wishful thinking.