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Put it simply, they were so piss easy noobish that they were overpowered. I haven't played DC 1.0 before but I heard it's worse than DC 1.2, and I know facing them in DC 1.2 is no joke. (and let's not talk about facing them in DC 1.2 at T4 because it doesn't happen before you get wiped out)they were just a piss easy noobish race
Originally Posted by chelovek_veliki
While I agree that the LD can be a better-designed unit, it is not an underpowered unit due to its abilities.
They never sucked in DC. There were top players who took Crons to the top just to prove how easy it is (and then left Crons due to boredom).As someone said at low level Crons are very strong while at the top they plan sux,
I personally have no problem with Crons' uncomplicated play. There are 9 races in this game... Crons are straightforward from the source... it's ok that we have a "simple noob race" in the game, as long as it's balanced. Don't demand Crons to be complex, cuz they aren't.they were just a piss easy noobish race.
Not better rez, but rez that works. You're not appreciating what effect functional-rez would have on NWs (and FOs, and Imms), combined with a Rez Orb that allows more rezzing, combined with gens that build faster after the 2nd one (in my changes).Hearing you seems that NW just need better resurrection range
Also, ideally I would divide DFI, II, III up into more equal parts, eventually scaling NWs back up to their DC 1.2 selves. That's a big buff.
SS 1.2 Crons are not as underpowered as DC 1.2 Crons were overpowered. Big changes are not needed.
#53
Can i haz LD in T2 please lololol
If warriors are slow they need range to make up for it, been said before and will probably be said again ....
The_$h0gun - Exactly, because the beard = the law.
Warriors aren't meant to do damage, for the love of god. They're a deterrent.
#55
Are you really as stupid as you just made yourself sound ViS ?
Enemies are meant to run away from Warriors. Giving them more range will just make that impossible. In later tiers, Destroyers do damage.
25 range is just too much. 22 is fine though.
EDIT: With the exception of Chronometron and/or teleports ib defense, that is.
EDIT2: It surprises me that someone who calls himself "Da Bad Dok of Balance" would make posts like this.
#57
I think you will find that enemies don't run away from warriors, infact they kick seven bells out of them, you might have noticed ?
I would go so far as to say that a mass of warriors is pretty much everybodies wildest dream when there facing nec because it generally means they are about to win the match.
I'm afraid your one sentance put-down's won't work on me.
Destroyers are generally concidered to be poor performers as well as warriors.
Being as warriors , for the entire game, will have a range, even when fully upgraded, shorter than even a basic tac squad with no upgrades, don't you think that makes warriors vastly more difficult to use than they could be ?
Is it not enough that they get ZERO heavy weapons and ZERO special abilities and ZERO attachable or buildable squad leaders?
They are slow, they are short ranged and they all carry a massive neon sign with SHOOT ME written on it in 3 metre high letters.
Please explain how this is good ?
Destroyers are poor performers?
xD
#59
4 words and a smilie, dude, your almost illiterate.
well painless, ViS does have a point, Destroyers can kill pretty fast.
you might need 3-4 of them but they do their job VERY well.
#61
They have low HP for a vehicle and take 30 seconds to build, good luck seeing off any kind of AV with each one produced that far apart.
Building 4 takes 2 minutes, in that time you will face off against a vastly larger amount of AV then they can handle.
Plus you can CC it and drop its DPS by about 2/3.
Yes you get about 100 DPS but if you miss, which it does quite a lot......
Like i said, poor performer.
EDIT
Let him speak for himself anyway, he is hugely fond of taking the piss out of everybody else but goes strangely quite when somebody stands up to him. Clan got your tongue ?
CC it with FOs and NWs advancing near it?
Bringing superior AV up against a non-static army with Wraiths and Solar Pulse?
Missing? So what? Everything misses.
Think about what you're saying.
This is all MU dependant, of course. All of what I said only applies after suitable eco buffs.
#63
Sorry, i forgot fast jump troops existed for a second there. And ATs. And invunerable priests. The list, it goes on. FO that wouldnt be walking along with the army because there in the mono ?
Wraiths that are killed by a 4 man tac squad in CC and solar pulse that needs to recharge once used ?
Missing, like a clue ?
Im thinking, i sound like i know what i'm talking about, strange that. Only been using necs on and off sincve they first arrived on the scene.
Insert generic get-out clause here about MU and something short to make this ever so slightly on-topic if i am made to look stupid.
Eco Buffs - could you give any less detail ? Buffs like what, in which teir, globals ? Gens scaling ? Mono power gift every few seconds ? Cost of units, plenty to choose from ? Which ones ?
Where is your "my god i am so l33t" now eh ?
EDIT
/me stops before he gets a warning.
How can I justify myself when you're playing your horribly skewed version of the game while under the assumption that you're not? The counters you're suggesting just won't work against a decent player after the Nec buffs have been put in place. Jump troops will just get torn up by Warriors while AV squads get tied by Wraiths (Who are VERY resistant to ranged fire after their upgrade). To further prevent the AV squads from firing in time, the Destroyers will be going for them while the Wraiths tie them, most likely inflicting some VERY heavy casualties before the Wraiths are killed. Tacs may be a problem for Wraiths but against SM, Necron players would be retarded to not go for Solar Pulse which recharges quickly enough to be spammed.
You know what? Screw this. You're just going to blindly give me a few faulted counter-arguments while proclaiming the perceived ridiculousness of what I'm saying. I'm not going to bother with this on this forum.
Don't destroyers cost like the equivalent of a tier upgrade here and abouts? that's like paying 300/300 for a hellhound or something
What else are you gonna buy at that point? a 3 men NW will take longer than the destroyer, assuming you still have your 2-3 squads from beginning and they are reinforced.
point is cost, especially considering crons weak enough eco
#68
I usually push on for the greater summoning core and tomb spyders, i find they have greater utility than the destroyer whilst having almost as good ranged dps when upgraded, far better melee and a full 1000 more hit points, when you send a destroyer into melee they can take a while to have an effect, a spyder with its higher dps and solid knockback tends to have an immediate effect.
I try to have scarabs repairing these guys 24/7 though as they can be missile magnets. If they get damaged retreat them back and do some rezzing or upgrade the gauss gun and get zapping. There ranged building damage is enough to justify the cost of buying the upgrade. A much better spend of 250 power imo.
Destroyers are nice but more than 2 and i frequently get left behind in tech pretty badly.
Are you actually serious?almost as good ranged dps when upgraded
Not if you actually kill some stuff with them.Destroyers are nice but more than 2 and i frequently get left behind in tech pretty badly.
Back in DC, Destroyers were just plain broken. Now, they'd still be broken if every other element of the Necron race wasn't so weak. Buff eco = buff everything.
#70
78.9 to Inf_high versus 105.0 to Inf_high at range, that would appear to be most of ?
Well i tend to kill some stuff with everything i build, i dont sit and look at the pretty animations, glad to see your still posting btw.
You said it yourself, really.78.9 to Inf_high versus 105.0 to Inf_high at range
#72
And other values are much closer together, really, no really - they are !
Have a look on the wiki, it's in black and white and everything !
Last edited by Old Painless; 8th Jan 09 at 3:43 PM. Reason: Added seriousness.
You think I haven't looked? Do explain to me how the TS's damage is nearly as good as the Destroyer's.
#74
Give it a rest you two, or I will ban you both from this thread. Construct some proper arguements with proofs or motivation behind why you would do things or why your adversary is incorrect or dont bother continuing this two man show.
Those who walk through the shadows, seek not the light.
If you disagree with a moderational decision, follow this.
Destroyers are normally useless because they come out too slowly, and if they do come out earlier its at a huge cost to ur eco and teching which means you have to win with them there and at that time or you will get out teched and out echoed. If Necrons teched faster they would be a lot more useful since you can take opponents by surprise, but saying that Necrons tech fast is like calling George Bush intelligent
Warriors are supposed to be both tanky (whether in the form of high HP or res) and deal high damage. Almost all necron units are designed to be like this, at the cost of being more expensive and not having special abilities apart from necron disruption (in TT that is). This whole problem with Necron Warriors happened when Relic had the smart idea of making them free, which along with being totally against the Cron fluff (their units are designed to be incredibly expensive and not "free") has created heaps of balance issues. It would be a lot easier and a lot more balanced if they gave NW a cost of something like 100-150, they come out in 30 seconds (without taking into account Obelisk time bonus) and the more NW you have on the field the faster you can build them.
If you just have a tanky unit that does no damage, its useless. We are not playing WoW where we have 15k tanks that agro opponents into attacking them, in later tiers humans are god damn smart enough not to attack a unit that is not a threat. For this reason Warriors do need a range buff, because currently in T3/T4 they just get melted in heavy ranged fire without being able to reach in range to shoot them.
Adding a cost would simplify things, and 30 seconds for the first squad is decent, but I don't see why you need them to build faster when there's more of them.
They DO deal good damage if you get within range of them. They're just not the mobile death-projectors that Destroyers and Immortals are. NWs actually deal absurd damage in T1 with their damage/hp ratios flattening out a bit in later tiers until they become moving walls (well... useless in their current state) for Destroyers and Immortals to move around in. That's the entire basis of the Necron army without including the Lord.
Don't give me any TT bollocks please. As a 40k player-turned-competitive gamer, I've given up on Relic being smart enough to actually come up with creative ways to preserve the essences of units. I'd also like to say that your NW-scaling proposal is just absurd and will encourage sitting a mass of NWs in your base, constantly reinforcing faster and faster while stalling the opponent ad infinitum with the Lord and Wraiths (perfectly possible).
Obviously you would have to adjust the damage/HP of warriors and their scaling. I didn't even provide the figures, you're just assuming they would be the reverse of what it is currently. There is nothing stopping the build time decrease to follow an exponential curve
i.e. the effects would only start being noticeable once you already have 5+ squads on the field, which is precisely what people want with the race in T3/T4 (an army with high reinforcement + res rate).
Obviously there is nothing stopping them from adjusting the HP/Damage ratios of warriors in early game if such a change would happen
ViS seems to be operating under the illusion that all games are 1v1s. Unfortunately, some players play in FFAs or larger team games. In those games, late-game floating becomes a non-issue. Economy in general is a non-issue. Destroyers are not going to make up the main arsenal of your army. I understand what he's thinking. To see armies clash head to head in upper tier games is nearly unheard of. A single Destroyer can make or break a game.
Change the format to a larger game, where a T4 final confrontation between two large armies is not only likely, but inevitable, and suggesting that Destroyers should be your main source of damage is laughable. They can kill single infantry quickly enough. But a 20/20 army? No.
ViS is stuck in a small game mentality that's preventing him from understanding certain things. Necrons only need two things, in my opinion: a more reliable early economy that won't be crippled by building a turret and a much better late T4 army. Right now their economy isn't horrible beyond belief, but their late T4 game is laughable, unless you're simply playing a small 1v1 or 2v2, maybe even a 3v3. It depends on the map.
The game is made for 1v1, and that possibly hurts Necrons more than any other race.
The fact that late-game floating becomes a non-issue certainly says a lot about those gametypes.
I understand the mechanics of late-tier games perfectly. It's IMPOSSIBLE to balance them in their current state without borking 1v1s which are what this game was designed for. Late-game scaling will have to be expanded and economic decay toned up for longer games to be subject to any degree or real economic pressure. Killing times will have to be reduced around the board and mistakes punished harder the longer the game gets. In that respect, late-game damage upgrades should be available to increase damage while leaving HP behind at their T3 level. That way, games will actually reach conclusions in sensible amounts of time and players will be forced to replace losses, possibly even amounting to the introduction of late-game harassment rather than just the attack-move steamrolling to which the DoW engine is best-suited.
To be fair, a better option would be to just leave the game as it is and get rid of all the mentally-hilarious maps people seem to like for some strange reason.
In fact, if they made Wraiths cost nothing but increase in build time (like Warriors do currently) it would make the Crons stronger early, but stop them from spamming 3+ Wraiths, which if they choose to do so, would kill their teching because it would fill up their production queue. Obviously the Wraith would need some adjustments
That and the Necron Warrior change i proposed earlier would probably fix a lot of their issues, after that they would only need the economy fixed and possibly the range upgrade and they should be balanced
Doing so would make Wraiths quite useless as counters to Eldar and Tau. Necs NEED Wraithspam against them. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to find an actual balance due to the nature of Wraiths.
Read the whole sentence pleaseObviously the Wraith would need some adjustments
PandaMine, any change to wraiths, apart from making them ridiculously imba, will not make up for an inability to have adequate numbers of them.
The most critical aspect of wraiths is their ability to tie up a ranged squad. If you can't have enough of them, they simply won't work.
That is PRECISELY the point
You only need a single wraith to type up a ranged squad, so having 3 or 4 to type up a ranged squad each is what they are designed to do.
As a unit they are NOT designed to be massed. Massing wraiths does nothing against any race that isn't Tau/Eldar. The only reason it works against Tau and Eldar is because every single one of their units apart from CC (Kroot and Banshees) do horrible melee damage and rely on their ranged damage.
In DC 1.2, Wraiths were very strong. A single Wraith could tie up a ranged squad for a decent amount of time. The problem happened when the units where spammed, so instead of just tying them up you basically raped the entire race.
Everyone has been saying in the other threads that the most logical solution to wraiths would be to reduce the pop to 1, buff them and hard cap them at 3. This is another solution
Tau can potentially get 4 FW squads in Tier 1, as well as a commander.
3 wraiths simply will not cut it there.
I guess if you give them enough HP to hold out decently when being shot by a TC and a squad of FW it might work out, but that's a lot of HP they would need.
What they had in DC was sync attack animations and kills (which when they did, wraiths didn't take any damage). In SS the majority of their sync kills were reduced, so now they are literally just like a single melee CC unit.
Anyways if you think about it, if you had 4 of the DC Wraiths that could (and they did) permanently tie up Tau, which with their reduction from ranged damage (including LP2's) they could easily do, that is already ridiculously powerful. You are spending something like 10-60% of the cost of what Tau spent to make their units essentially useless. Due to DoW mechanics, no matter how reinforced a squad is, a single unit will always tie up the whole squad in melee and due to collision size only a max of 3-4 units would be attacking the wraith at a time.
This is why people wanted to hard cap and improve the unit, so necrons had some defense against high firepower ranged races like Tau/ID/Eldar however not make one hit spamming the wraiths an almost free win. Making them build a lot longer after the 3rd Wraith (similar to what is done with NW now) is another more unique way of doing it.
If their pop cap was reduced to 1 and with this change, it might also possibly give them a use in later tiers when you get you're second or third mono since spamming wraiths won't tie up you're total production queue
No, it's not. Would it take some effort? Yes. But it's far from impossible.It's IMPOSSIBLE to balance them in their current state without borking 1v1s
Says who? The vast majority of people who own this game play it casually, which involves more players on larger maps. Please don't make this an elitist debate that excludes the preferred play-style of the majority.which are what this game was designed for
I said this before and I'll say it again
Relic has NEVER officially released a statement saying they only take 1v1 into account for balance (or thats what the game is only designed for).
Unless they actually say that, you CANNOT assume that game is balance and/or designed for 1v1 play
It`s abilities are great, i just wanted more range, not an iwin button, since they are a situational counter, they should be at least good at it, i`m not asking that muchWhile I agree that the LD can be a better-designed unit, it is not an underpowered unit due to its abilities.
It was more SS comment, Dc Necron sucked only in t3/4.They never sucked in DC. There were top players who took Crons to the top just to prove how easy it is (and then left Crons due to boredom).
Anyway, even in DC NWs were always mobile targets with a "shoot me" sign on the top, so skilled playes were able to kill them with no problems, i knew some really good players that on tournaments left necron because they were too easily outmanouvered
That`s the point, the problem was noobs could win easily with Crons because they were imba AND piss easy.I personally have no problem with Crons' uncomplicated play. There are 9 races in this game... Crons are straightforward from the source... it's ok that we have a "simple noob race" in the game, as long as it's balanced. Don't demand Crons to be complex, cuz they aren't.
Take for instace Tau, they are imba, but not so easy as Crons so a noob still can`t do that much
Hey i`d love a better res and stuff, it`s just that imo Crons need better buf that just thatNot better rez, but rez that works. You're not appreciating what effect functional-rez would have on NWs (and FOs, and Imms), combined with a Rez Orb that allows more rezzing, combined with gens that build faster after the 2nd one (in my changes).
Also, ideally I would divide DFI, II, III up into more equal parts, eventually scaling NWs back up to their DC 1.2 selves. That's a big buff.
Yes they are, they cost a lot, have poor health, are outranged by most AV squads, and can be tied in CCDestroyers are poor performers?
Please don`t touch the Wraiths, they can be better of course, and surely against most of the races are kinda weak, but they do what they have to.
The buff should be elsewere
Last edited by Etros; 8th Jan 09 at 8:28 PM.
Relic has ALWAYS shown that they only balance this game for 1v1 standard-resource play. Don't even bother to pretend otherwise or get all indignant about it. Even disregarding that, it is known that the game is hard enough to balance for 1v1... it's exponentially harder to balance it for teamplay/ FFA/ QS etc. Therefore asking for "FFA balance" is a blatant waste of time, outside of the most obvious changes such as removing Avatar veh pop bonus.
And, NWs do *not* need range of 25. Stop theorycrafting and look at the changes from DC 1.2 to SS 1.2. Necrons went from very OP to somewhat UP... and what were the changes that caused this? Eco nerfs, NWs hps nerf, FOs initial hps nerf, FOs morale-sap nerf, Wraith synckill nerf... NW range is unchanged. Vis is correct regarding NWs role... except back when Crons were OP, the NWs did great damage anyways (and without range of 25).
And stop defending Eldar and Tau as an excuse for you to want to mess with Wraiths. They have cc squads, they just choose not to use them because they somehow feel they're entitled to use the same DR-spam/ FW-spam strat against EVERY race. It's not the Cron player's fault. You hardcap Wraiths and you might as well hardcap Stormboyz.
Necron Warriors were not OP in any DoW version apart from DC 1.0 with res orb.
It was the rest of the necron race that was borked
I never wanted to hard cap wraiths, I just wanted them to follow the same model of their build time increasing as Warriors do
just somewhat UP....And, NWs do *not* need range of 25. Stop theorycrafting and look at the changes from DC 1.2 to SS 1.2. Necrons went from very OP to somewhat UP... and what were the changes that caused this? Eco nerfs, NWs hps nerf, FOs initial hps nerf, FOs morale-sap nerf, Wraith synckill nerf... NW range is unchanged. Vis is correct regarding NWs role... except back when Crons were OP, the NWs did great damage anyways (and without range of 25).
You`re forgetting one of the worst nerf, Tomb spyder
Wraiths were OP, FOs were OP, eco was OP, NWs were not.
Now NWs are just pathetic, if health/body is too strong to give back then something else is needed, it`s a nobrainer.
You`re saying that 25 range isn`t needed because it never was 25? seems pretty weak to me
NWs were OP because the Cron eco supported mindless auto-reinforcing of 1000 hps of inf_hvy_med per unit. In tier 2.
3 squads of NWs were able to walk across the map, completely ignoring 2 squads of Nobz + B.Mek chasing them and trying to kill them, and walk through the entire Ork base, never stopping, and every Ork building except the HQ just spontaneously combusted as they walked past.
That is what I will *always* remember about DC NWs. Don't tell me that they weren't OP. Don't think that Cron noobs now have more legitimacy to whine just because Crons aren't OP anymore.
Yeah, do that for Reapers and FWs too. Then talk.I never wanted to hard cap wraiths, I just wanted them to follow the same model of their build time increasing as Warriors do
Yes, I'm the one using real world evidence, and learning from the history of DC -> SS balancing. What can you say?You`re saying that 25 range isn`t needed because it never was 25? seems pretty weak to me
Yes, skilled players using OP strats (DRs, ork early big shootas)... vs Noobcrons massing NWs.Anyway, even in DC NWs were always mobile targets with a "shoot me" sign on the top, so skilled playes were able to kill them with no problems,
Except for that fact that no one gets more then 3 or 4 squads of reapers or fragons except in excessive situationsYeah, do that for Reapers and FWs too. Then talk.
He said fire warriors, and people get as many of those as they can...
What's wrong with getting more than 3 or 4 Reapers/FWs?
I thought 3 x reapers was the standard
Well i think for the most part crons are fine, but a few small changes i would not mind seeing are as follows
2nd monolith 400, down from 450
3rd monolith 800, down from 900
Monolith power goes up as it's upgraded, base mono gives + 10 power, after first upgrade + 15, after second + 20
Second power upgrade 500, down from 550
First Wraith upgrade to give 0.5 health regen boost in addition to it's current effects, a second wraith upgrade at tier 3, boosting there hp from 500 to 550, and providing a 1 health regen bonus, for a total of 2/hp sec at tier 3 after both upgrades
First warrior upgrade to give a 0.5 health regen bonus, and range extension of 1, second upgrade to provide a second 0.5 health regen bonus, warrior range 1 better than now, after both upgrades, healting rate of 2 hp sec when not in combat instead of 1 hp sec at present
Warrior, reasemble to be tweaked to work faster and have a wider range, so they don't die right after getting back up as the squad has already walked off
Immortals to be a bit quicker at getting back up after being knocked over, they take a very long time to pick themselves up
Monolith death, to be trigged at 2000hp, rather than the current, 2500, meaning the mono will become dormant again once you knock off 8000hp rather than the current 7500
Wraith cost to be increased to 75 power
Tombspider to get the 2hp a sec regen of other cron vehicles
Tombspider to get increased cost to 300 power
speaking of Monolith, get rid of that rediculous thing where teleport is disabled after certain amount of damage, and increase the health by 2500.
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