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Also, FOs does that special attack way too much.
reduce the special attack so that they do more damage instead of sending infantry flying into the air could be a nice fix. Increase attack speed but lower the damage to keep DPS the same could also help.
Using NW as a buffer for you masses of immortals in later tiers is not optimal.Originally Posted by Gannadene
Quite simply, pariah (at 4 pop) are much more durable, can reinforce in 6 seconds with the speed bonus, and can actually keep up with the immortals, so that I don't have to wait for my buffer to catch up.
Also, when you hit 16 pop (being 8 immortal squads) there is no difference between using up 3 pop for your NW or 4 pop for the pariah.
8 immortal squads are relatively hard to tie up compared to 5-6 NW squads (or mixtures of NW and immortals). It's a matter of the number of individual squads and the relative speed of immortals.
Finally, immortals can handle themselves reasonably well in melee but only if you have the resources to reinforce. They have 3 times the melee DPS compared to NW and are much harder break morale due to the smaller squad sizes and 700 morale compared to 400.
In some instances, immortals actually do 4 times the melee DPS than they do ranged DPS.
With mass immortals, achieving critical mass is the key. NW can almost never achieve a critical mass due to; 1 their LOOOOOONG build/reinforce time and 2 their short range.
FOs technically speaking shouldn't be laborious in their movement. Their attacks do demonstrate a fair deal of agility. They shouldn't be that awfully slow though. At least not slower than NWs.
Men this discussions always degenerate..
Has any of you ever played Necrons seriously?
Fo ain`t slower than NWFOs technically speaking shouldn't be laborious in their movement. Their attacks do demonstrate a fair deal of agility. They shouldn't be that awfully slow though. At least not slower than NWs.
PandaMine repeated that endlessly, TT Necs are much faster, anyway TT doesn`t matter
Not really, how can Destroyers neutralize a jump troop with their 41dps melee damage while HW destroy your troops?just ram the melee troops with your destroyer.
get back to you later.
But Melee squads are definitly not a problem as them can be neutralized by your fast moving vehicle.
Good luck getting Pariah without being obliterated long before.Also, when you hit 16 pop (being 8 immortal squads) there is no difference between using up 3 pop for your NW or 4 pop for the pariah.
8 immortal squads are relatively hard to tie up compared to 5-6 NW squads (or mixtures of NW and immortals). It's a matter of the number of individual squads and the relative speed of immortals.
In some instances, immortals actually do 4 times the melee DPS than they do ranged DPS.
With mass immortals, achieving critical mass is the key. NW can almost never achieve a critical mass due to; 1 their LOOOOOONG build/reinforce time and 2 their short range.
Going t3 just for pariah mean 800 power just for them
Mass immortal will hardly work, why? math
5 Immortal get 51.5 damages
a SINGLE marine with HB 48.7 at the same range
And due to low squad number and low health they die too fast to reinforce effectively
not to mention you just start massing them at t2 with a troop tax of 30 power, while the enemy use the same t1 units
Should i carry on?
I was answering the late-tier situation. This means t3.
I suggest you never try this tactic then.
Immortals would never beat the heavy bolter and tau rifle in a straight out stand-and shoot. That's why you need destroyers and lord destroyers tip the balance.
Ignore the melee DPS of destroyers (though it's good compared to the melee of heavy destroyers). It's the fact that troops in melee generally cannot shoot that's important.
If the opposing force starts to flee, by all means change your destroyers to ranged.
Last edited by Melchior; 15th Jan 09 at 2:11 AM.
Oh no, an endless army of melee-stance Immortals is charging at me!
Let's see, my options are:
1.) Gun them down from half-a-mile away.
2.) Nuke them with my hero abilities and artillery.
3.) Have some fun and sick my [Insert Melee Specialist here] squad on them.
You would seriously have to completely outsquad the opponent with Destroyers in order to prevent CC units from melee'ing the immortals (like 3-4). With a pop cap of 3 and costing 250 a piece, I don't really see that as a feasible tactic
But you could also use your hero and some wraiths for light binding stuff.So 2 destroyers 1 hero maybe 2 wraiths joining the fight afterwards will be enough to bind 3 squads constantly and wont allow HWs to be deployed.
The question is that will be The immortals felisable in killing while they tie up?Because sooner or later the destroyers are going to be destroyed (Ahhh the irony of words)
My suggestion is with the attack scarabs.Make them resillant to enemy fire for HBs(Perhaps HBs dealing the same damage as bolters?) and plasma and make them again ground units.THey should get slaughtered by area effect weapons though;like flamers, artilery and hellfire missiles(Maybe making them low on morale or something).
Of course since I dont know the exact armortype/damage things I can't realy say which armor type that should be.Maybe the lowest armor type(infantry low) with lots of Hp.This way necrons would have a good binding unit mass.(Maybe one jump would be nice they are like a locus swarm after all)
So shortly my suggestion
-Make attack scarabs ground units(decrease their speed a bit ofcourse)
-Make them vunarable to area effect weapons
-Give them lots of HP infantry low armor and low melle damage
-Give them one jump
Infantry low is actually a pretty decent armour type ^_^
Aye, if you wanted to nerf armour type infantry_med would be a better option.
Infantry_low is more vulnerable to some cappers (to encourage early game harrassment), but is stronger against most other units than infantry_med.
I think what Phoenixzs is trying to say is to bring the Dark Crusade Attack Scarabs back, with Vehicle_Low armor, of course. Not Infantry_Low...
#162
Did somebody really just suggest massed immortals and not get shot to pieces in the very next post ?
Immortals are an AV choice, they do not constitute an army for every reason under the sun.
The_$h0gun - Exactly, because the beard = the law.
^ It made me blink too.
@Pandamine Destroyers are a nice choice against running meleers because they can ram them and screw up their pathings.You would seriously have to completely outsquad the opponent with Destroyers in order to prevent CC units from melee'ing the immortals (like 3-4). With a pop cap of 3 and costing 250 a piece, I don't really see that as a feasible tactic
Melee squads will literally, stop, and try to get out of the way of a vehicle that's being told to repeatedly to move through the infantry squad, and you can even avoid any damage on your destroyer because when moving out of the way the infantry don't attack.
Of course this doesn't help much against Jump infantry or teleporters, but will work against things like berserkers and possessed.
The bottom line is that any cute trick a Necron player is going to try to pull to optimize his army is ultimately going to reveal the race's flaws. Necrons are just that - a cute trick. All of their race-specific traits are major flaws in true competitive play. They have two ranged options, one that can't mete out enough damage in combination of their weapon performance, range and movement speed and another that melts under any form of damage. Their melee options all do essentially the same thing: Wraiths are useless past early tiers, especially outside of 1v1, Flayed Ones are too slow to realistically engage troops in the field and are limited to simply forcing enemy troops back and attacking structures and acting as a defensive line. Pariahs disrupt too often to deal out real damage against infantry mass and cost too much in population to warrant taking them in favor of splitting the cost between Immortals and even Flayed Ones once you hit the 20/20 limit and want to go over your natural cap.
It's frustrating seeing people that don't understand the race spout half thought-out nonsense about DPS values and health numbers, when having on-paper balance has always been what has ruined the race in actual play.
Not really@Pandamine Destroyers are a nice choice against running meleers because they can ram them and screw up their pathings.
Melee squads will literally, stop, and try to get out of the way of a vehicle that's being told to repeatedly to move through the infantry squad, and you can even avoid any damage on your destroyer because when moving out of the way the infantry don't attack.
I disagree with that, on paper balance is important, it`s just that people tend to just weight things like dps and health forgetting the rest.It's frustrating seeing people that don't understand the race spout half thought-out nonsense about DPS values and health numbers, when having on-paper balance has always been what has ruined the race in actual play.
And that`s not on paper balance, it`s just noobishness
That's why I normally only make direct for-cost comparisons in T1, when there is little else to influence what is fair against what.
But, once the game gets rolling into T2, there is alot more factors to consider, so it becomes far less simple (though there is still a couple comparisons that are valid, when races are similiar in other ways).
Exceptions perhaps being stuff like vehicles, which tend to come out at the same time and with roughly the same prerequisites anyway.
Last edited by KotCR; 16th Jan 09 at 10:56 AM.
Actually destroyers do a very nice job of ramming enemy squads, especially when the squad is moving. If the opponent spams melee units at you and you happen to have a destroyer out at the time just use the destroyer to ram. Your destroyer will only be doing damage with its fotm accuracy if it targets at all, but almost all of the units that you are ramming will not move or attack. Nice way to shut down psm's or other tough melee units, not to mention cut off retreating units. Harder to ram stationary squads, but anything moving is very easy to ram.
The point is if you are spending so much energy on destroyers to use them just for ramming, either something really weird is going on or you have already won (which is also very weird)
#170
Destroyers are really supposed to be shooting things.
um if you can keep a PSM away from your warriors indefinitly...
it's freaking worth it.
Then a second one on melee stance can go tie up the ranged elite unit, Obliterator for example. and your 3 warrior squad can actually start doing some damage.
Yes if Destroyers could keep psm occupied indefinitely that would be freaking worth it, the same if the enemy stayed still and let the NW do damage, sadly it`s not like that.um if you can keep a PSM away from your warriors indefinitly...
it's freaking worth it.
Then a second one on melee stance can go tie up the ranged elite unit, Obliterator for example. and your 3 warrior squad can actually start doing some damage.
Troops move and let`s just say Destroyers are t2.5 units that cost the hefty sum of 250 power and against a Rocked marine squad goes down in about 7 seconds.
Ramming units around is just useless for a million reasons.
So while listening to pointles ideas is at least nicer than having people whining about a necron buf because "omg omg a single NW squad raped my t3 base and killed my cat! die Necrons die!" it`s still stupid.
That`s a discussion old as Soulstorm, so no, there`s NO way anyone can come out with a great idea for saving the necron race. Period
nw needs a buff or the race itself definetly but with dow2 out soon i dont think relic would even bother with it anytime soon
Relic wouldn't. We're just shooting the shit.
As a counterpoint, it's pretty pathetic to hear Cron players whine about how their race is bottom tier, and how they want buffs to NWs that make them better than DC 1.2 NWs, in addition to numerous other Necron race buffs.
They then proceed to talk about how only they know how to play and balance Crons. But they completely ignore the lessons learned from the patch history of DC 1.0 to SS 1.2. Because nope nope years of the global online community play experience and official patch experience means nothing, only they know how to balance SS Crons.
You only need 1 destroyer to ram and its not like it cant still shoot or melee-tie up while not ramming. The point is destroyers are much more useful than just a shooting platform, people need to learn how to use them before making balance judgements. Calling ramming useless just makes it obvious that you havent played much on the competitive side of SS - its a great way to shut down t3 elites and make your NW's useful again. Of course AV can take them down, but thats where having an army and micro comes in.
Noone is saying that Crons dont need a buff, just that you have to consider the usefulness of all units before making adjustments. That said, i would boost the HP increase of DF1 to give NW's somewhere around 610, and maybe a small increase to chance of ressing or maybe a slight reduction in reinforce time with each DF upgrade. Obviously the economy needs to be fixed as well before any drastic changes can take effect.
To counter melee surely necrons got better option, and when the enemy is running if even by god`s intervention Destroyer survived enough to ram, the NW are too far awayYou only need 1 destroyer to ram and its not like it cant still shoot or melee-tie up while not ramming. The point is destroyers are much more useful than just a shooting platform, people need to learn how to use them before making balance judgements. Calling ramming useless just makes it obvious that you havent played much on the competitive side of SS - its a great way to shut down t3 elites and make your NW's useful again. Of course AV can take them down, but thats where having an army and micro comes in.
Eh you just said so yourself, micro. It`s 10 times easier to micro AV and take down destroyers than avoid AV WHILE ramming, on-paper maybe nice, in most situation not that much
Was wondering were you has been all this time; and i can say the same to youAs a counterpoint, it's pretty pathetic to hear Cron players whine about how their race is bottom tier, and how they want buffs to NWs that make them better than DC 1.2 NWs, in addition to numerous other Necron race buffs.
They then proceed to talk about how only they know how to play and balance Crons. But they completely ignore the lessons learned from the patch history of DC 1.0 to SS 1.2. Because nope nope years of the global online community play experience and official patch experience means nothing, only they know how to balance SS Crons.
"numerous other Necron race buffs."? where? the only thing that is usually asked is unnerf eco a bit and give back decent NWs, not just me, half Necron players
Yes 4 range>130 health, nothing compared to the big nerf to FO Wraith and Spyder that were aiding the death march, but sure, We didn`t learn anything from all SS playing. It only takes to use immortals swarm supported by 35 destroyer, how did we all miss that? it was so easy!
The difference: Necron IS the bottom race, we have all the rights to whine
necrons are the new IG
Animator and a hobby modeller. Reel & contact: http://www.titovdenis.com
Yep, Crons are indeed the new IG. Except nobody likes Crons or Cron whiners.
@ Etros:
DC 1.2 Necronomy was too uber. SS 1.2 Necronomy is too UP. By re-buffing eco a bit, you're already giving a lot back to Necrons. I still think rez functionality should be fixed, and Rez Orb internally balanced. That's also a buff to all Cron infantry squads.
Vehicle-ramming of infantry squads is a tried-and-true veteran tactic in DOW. And we're talking about Destroyers which have some of the fastest land movement around, can shoot, AND can melee. There's practically nothing more ideal to vehicle-ram with. Yes, right now with nerfed eco, Crons prolly can't afford multiple Destroyers for that tactic. But what about after eco is balanced better?
Sure, Destroyers can't do it all by themselves. But that's what stuff like Solar Pulse is for. Yknow, that ability that has never been nerfed once since it came out of the DC box? Back in DC 99% of the community whined about how it's the most OP ability in the game, but now in you guys' hands suddenly it's a piss ability that can't do shit for you? That's the kind of thing that tells me right off you guys can't be trusted to balance a single scarab.
Puh. All the good Cron players are gone.
Good necron players still exist, they just don't complain because they know the race is a few tiny buffs from being overpowered again.
All the people whining like it's the pinnacle of imbalance are just nubcrons.
I as an IG player still hate the fact that it includes all shooting units like turrets.Nah the necron lord who doesnt pick that ability is just brainless.Its just sooo good.
Maybe; if the necronomy is the problem;Necrons should start lets say 200 more power so that they dont mindlessly rush to build generators and can build some troops instead and stay more relaxed in terms of economy at the begining.
Not very nice are you IC
All i want for necrons is Warrior reinforce time buff,
slight eco buff. 50 power for each upgrade.
and maybe make the second mono cheaper.
If really needed, maybe the archive can be made cheaper?
that's all i really think is needed, of course Mlai's idea abour res time is excellent and can be a very noticeable buff.
Or what is 95% more likely, the don't complain because they know nothing will be done about them.Good necron players still exist, they just don't complain because they know the race is a few tiny buffs from being overpowered again.
Pro players have a tendancy of not complaining at all in the first place, they just abuse what gives them wins
The first post of yours i actually agree on Panda.
Nothing better than a pointless discussion when you`re stuck at the pcOr what is 95% more likely, the don't complain because they know nothing will be done about them.
Pro players have a tendancy of not complaining at all in the first place, they just abuse what gives them wins
Really, one thing is starting a venting post on the forum.
Another is posting ideas on the thread of a guy who wanted to do a mod and have to listen to people claiming necrons just need +2hp cause Dc necron were op/ just need to use immortals
Someone should put this in their sig.
Because 4Servant never complains mind. Never.
(Don't worry 4Serv, I still wubz ya, just a good example is all)
Let me rephrase that
MOST pro players tend not to complain. Or at least not to the extend that casual or medium level players do
Can you mention anyone else other then 4Servent?
I prove my point
Last edited by PandaMine; 18th Jan 09 at 4:55 PM.
Charlie. He'll alwayz be muh Warboss hero. I stuck with Orkz cuz of 'im.Can you mention anyone else other then 4Servent?
What's the problem with NW?
I find them very potent as they are.
HOW ABOUT NECRONS START OUT WITH 2 SCARABS
will imo help them alot t1
Originally posted by OmegaDestroyer, about Necrons in SS:
If you like the Necrons, you'll be disappointed. They aren't one of the strongest races anymore. They didn't get hit by a nerfbat or anything; a truck carrying a bunch of nerfbats accidentally crashed into a restored monolith
Giving any race "free" units to solve problems is just going to cause more problems in the future imo
Scarabs aren't the problem. What will adding a second builder do for them? A scarab squad at the mono completes in 18 seconds. That's chump change and won't help the necrons where they need it most. It's late-game NWs that melt away before they can be useful on the field. It's also gen build times that don't reach an upper ceiling on how long they take to complete.
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