[SS 1.2] Necrons: how wold you fix them?

[Etros]

Yes, skilled players using OP strats (DRs, ork early big shootas)... vs Noobcrons massing NWs.

Well, no. NW got 21 range and 10 speed, There is NO way a cron squad can shot if say a heavy weapon marine keep kiting

NWs were OP because the Cron eco supported mindless auto-reinforcing of 1000 hps of inf_hvy_med per unit. In tier 2.

3 squads of NWs were able to walk across the map, completely ignoring 2 squads of Nobz + B.Mek chasing them and trying to kill them, and walk through the entire Ork base, never stopping, and every Ork building except the HQ just spontaneously combusted as they walked past.

That is what I will *always* remember about DC NWs. Don't tell me that they weren't OP. Don't think that Cron noobs now have more legitimacy to whine just because Crons aren't OP anymore.

You seems pretty traumatized by crons lol
Having 2 Nobz squad against Crons in`t the best choice even now, everyone know mass ranged is the way, if you use a bad strat it`s normal to lose.



Anyway there`s no point discussing if you can`t even see that NWs as they are now are VERY weak

[mlai]

@ Etros:

You're the type of player who back in DC 1.2 would say that Necrons are balanced, and everyone would ignore you.

NWs had 10 speed and 21 range back in DC 1.2 as well. Which is why the only way to beat them is to mass range troops. That's not news. I was beating them back then with mass big shootas as well. However, DC 1.2 crons were still OP.

Ofc mass ranged is the best strat. But I'm talking about 3 squads of NW marching across an open map, ignoring 2 nobz squads + a BM hacking away at them, walking thru the center of an Ork base, and winning. Let's see you do that with 3 tac squads. NWs aren't weak just because they're speed 10 range 21. If you're a noobcron then it's normal to lose.

[KotCR]

Ofc mass ranged is the best strat. But I'm talking about 3 squads of NW marching across an open map, ignoring 2 nobz squads + a BM hacking away at them, walking thru the center of an Ork base, and winning. Let's see you do that with 3 tac squads. NWs aren't weak just because they're speed 10 range 21. If you're a noobcron then it's normal to lose.

QFT. Well said.

Perhaps you should have bolded the "Ork base" part as well . What with all that extra building gun firepower...

[Kudoku]

Ofc mass ranged is the best strat. But I'm talking about 3 squads of NW marching across an open map, ignoring 2 nobz squads + a BM hacking away at them, walking thru the center of an Ork base, and winning. Let's see you do that with 3 tac squads. NWs aren't weak just because they're speed 10 range 21. If you're a noobcron then it's normal to lose.

I don't think that's really possible, unless the orks is doing something very very wrong.

I'd like to know why you don't think NWs are weak now, at least i'll get a mod out of this discussion, and i want it the more accurate possible

[ImmortalChaos]

He's talking about DC 1.2, where stuff like that was very possible...

[corncobman]

This is even before you take into account Flayed Ones and Wraiths, which were more powerful than even NW in DC.

[Kudoku]

Just 170 hp more make that much difference?

[KotCR]

I'd like to know why you don't think NWs are weak now, at least i'll get a mod out of this discussion, and i want it the more accurate possible

He's not saying they aren't; At least not in that post.

What he's saying however, is that it's possible to make Necron Warriors strong or even overpowered without having to increase their footspeed or firing range, using the example of how they were overpowered in Dark Crusade despite still having the slow movement speed and short firing range.

EDIT:

Just 170 hp more make that much difference?

Can do. It all adds up in the end. I mean that is 170HP more per man, which equates into 1000HP+ more each squad, which equates into even more overall resilience when you factor Ressurrection into it.

Take a look at Shootas and Sluggas for example. A Slugga only has 15 more HP than a Shoota...but try attaching both squads to a Big Mek, teleporting into the middle of an enemy squad, and see which type of Mek w/Bodyguard squad is harder to shift.

There's a reason Ork players use Sluggas to tie squads up in T1 instead of Shootas, and I promise you it isn't the melee damage (lulz).

[ImmortalChaos]

Just 170 hp more make that much difference?

... yes? Have you not played Dark Crusade?

[ViS]

JUST 170hp?

[KotCR]

Heh, maybe he doesn't realise that's more than the difference between 'zerkers and PtW CSM. Who do you find is much harder to kill quickly?

Erm...assuming we are in T2 and so the CSM don't have Infiltration yet...

[corncobman]

Sometimes even 50hp is too much. Depends on the circumstances.

[PandaMine]

It made the difference of making them useful to almost useless and only being forced to use NW due to the race design and that they are a base unit

That +170 HP was only gotten in later tiers anyways, at which point you would be luky that a Cron wouldn't have already killed you with FO and Wraiths which were the real problem

[Etros]

Lol okey
1th of all
the nerf was "just" 130 hp not 170, it`s hard to take you guys seriously when you don`t even know what you`re talking about.

2

Ofc mass ranged is the best strat. But I'm talking about 3 squads of NW marching across an open map, ignoring 2 nobz squads + a BM hacking away at them, walking thru the center of an Ork base, and winning. Let's see you do that with 3 tac squads. NWs aren't weak just because they're speed 10 range 21. If you're a noobcron then it's normal to lose.

NW are made to be very resilient, that mean they can take a lot of damage and carry on, a specific strat is needed to take them down, it`s like whining because you charged FW with mandrakes and Tau won
(not to mention using Nobz better would have helped)

3

What he's saying however, is that it's possible to make Necron Warriors strong or even overpowered without having to increase their footspeed or firing range, using the example of how they were overpowered in Dark Crusade despite still having the slow movement speed and short firing range.

For the last time, DC 1.2 NW weren`t op, the Necron race as a whole was too strong.
Noone had problem with just them, even mlai admitted that. They were suported by op wraiths, op FOs and a op eco (ton of destroyer and fast teching) not to mention a much stronger resurrection spyder



It`s becoming very tiring having to point out the same things again and again, there was another big topic and a lot agreed that +4 range was a good solution, so i`m really off this time, flame as much as you want

[Pseudonymn]

Agreed. The thing with an additional +4 range is that it would give the NWs a much needed chance to get into position to deliver some damage before two thirds of the squad is lost to longer ranged fire without having fired a shot. It also opens up additional strategies if they don't have to rely on monoporting them in every 2+ minutes after ability recharge and mono repair times. We'd still have the same squishy NWs that we currently have, the difference being that they stand a slightly better chance of actually being useful.

[mlai]

the nerf was "just" 130 hp not 170, it`s hard to take you guys seriously when you don`t even know what you`re talking about.

FYI, it was a newbie who made the mistake and said 170.

NW are made to be very resilient, that mean they can take a lot of damage and carry on, a specific strat is needed to take them down,

Yes, and asking for +4 range is... what is that trying to do? Answer: Eliminate pre-existing strats against NWs. Trying to change their role because you feel like it.

there was another big topic and a lot agreed that +4 range was a good solution,

It's not a good solution because you're inventing a new variable to deal with a tweaking problem.

Here's what should be done, because it's safe practical balancing:

1. Required: Re-buff the DC 1.2 -> SS 1.2 nerfs (not just NWs) because the nerfs were a bit too harsh. The original nerfs were small. The re-buffs must be tiny.
2. Optional but would be nice: Fix Rez so it works.
3. Even more optional but would be nice: Buff Rez Orb's range so it's a viable choice, without making units rez with more hps. This is for internal balance (artifacts), not external balance.

[PandaMine]

Yes, and asking for +4 range is... what is that trying to do? Answer: Eliminate pre-existing strats against NWs. Trying to change their role because you feel like it.

And what is their fuken role. To just sit there tanking shit?

NW, if we are taking into account roles, which come from 'TT' are designed to be tanky units with "high survivability", "average" range and above average firepower.

21 range is not bloody average, its well below average. They are not supposed to have such low range, because a unit with horrible movespeed and no special abilities along with very low ranged firepower is a horrible 'role'

It's not a good solution because you're inventing a new variable to deal with a tweaking problem.

Crap argument?

They had that range before. NW where not imbalanced in DC 1.2. What WAS imbalanced was perma deep striking FO's, wraith spam and fast teched destroyers and spyders. No one was even bloody complaining about NW in DC 1.2.

[mlai]

1. Stop referring to TT specifics. See, this is not about designing a new unit for the RTS game. This is about re-tweaking an existing unit that has been tweaked before.

2. For the last time, NWs were not UP in DC 1.2. You die if you spam only NWs, but they worked fine inside the NW army. This means, speed 10 and range 21 did not cause NWs to be UP, as long as Necrons as a whole weren't UP.

You die if you spam only Tau FWs (without Commander, Spids) too. OMG they need moar range?

3. Which means, don't fix what ain't broken: NW's speed 10 range 21.

They had that range before. NW were not imba in DC 1.2. What was imba were FO's, Wraiths, and eco-enabled fast tech. No one was even complaining about NW in DC 1.2.

4. So why would you want to make a brand new change (+4 range) now?????

5. I'll break down my most ideal Cron changes for you:

=> Re-tweak Cron eco by partially re-buffing what had been nerfed. Very small buffs.
=> Gen build time scaling increase linearly, not exponentially, so Crons playing teamgames, QS, and FFA, don't get ****ed.
=> NWs regain their DC 1.2 form but only in tier 3/4. No new buffs such as speed/range increase because you don't know WTF that would do to the game and don't fix what ain't broken I don't care if you like it or not it ain't broken.
=> Fix rez so it works. This buffs NWs, FOs, and Imms.
=> Increase rez orb aura range by 5-10 radius for internal balance of artifacts (not necessary for external balance).

[PandaMine]

4. So why would you want to make a brand new change (+4 range) now?????

+4 range is a huge bloody difference on a unit that has 10 movespeed. It means that the NW can verse most other ranged units which have 25 range. That difference in 4 range means that a tac squad, can for example shoot + run, shoot + run without the NW being able to fire back. Where as if both have 25 range, as soon as Tacs get in range the NW will fire

This means, speed 10 and range 21 did not cause NWs to be UP, as long as Necrons as a whole weren't UP.

I never said they were up. Its just that back in DC they don't have the problem now where wraiths and FO's become useless after T1-T2, which helped in closing the gap between NW and the army within that 21 range

because you don't know WTF that would do to the game and don't fix what ain't broken I don't care if you like it or not it ain't broken.

So why are you commenting on changes now. That kind of logic assumes that you are considering everything in a vacuum. If units a, b, c are imbalanced and unit d is balanced in one version and in the next versions units a,b,c are balanced but it turns out unit d is never used (but unchanged) you might have to buff unit d even though it might have been "balanced before"

The problem with NW is their T3/T4, in which case they get melted down. Even IF you change their HP back to what it was before (8k per squad) they would STILL get mowed down, because 1.2k extra HP means jack shit when you are under heavy fire. What they DO actually need is a T3/T4 upgrade which increases their range +4, so they can actally reach anything to shoot it. There is no f**ken point in having a tanky unit that doesn't actually shoot anything because it gets mowed down before reaching it, especially considering the NW are as slow as a turtle with polio. This was argued numerous times in the other thread and 90% of people agreed that a +4 upgrade to range in T3/T4 would make a NOTICEABLE difference.

The other changes such as fixing res and what not was also agreed upon

[Gannadene]

In later tiers, it doesn't matter if you boost a squad's health by 1,000. They're going to be slaughtered because Warrior move, range and line-up time takes so incredibly long. You can cry Solar Pulse all day about that, but life isn't so perfect. Every map isn't going to have a foe's entire army choked into a single point. In another thread, the extra range was decided upon for this reason. It's not adding a new and radical element. It's just four squares of range.

[mlai]

What the heck would a Tier 3/4 upgrade to NWs fix? NWs in tier 3/4 is not what causes Cron players to lose in 1v1. It's their eco causing them to lose.

Any Cron overall-fix should be eco-centric. Everything else tacked on is merely for internal balance and for correctly-functioning abilities. It's dangerous to insert new variables when it's not the central problem that makes the army UP.

[Gannadene]

I never said I'd fix them based on 1v1.

[dtitov]

then i doubt more then 30% of people would care since those that really care about balance are 1v1 players in the majority.

I would say that if we are to go wit minimal changes buff global eco upgrade a little + some range for NW as a tier 3 upgrade would fix crons fine. nothing more needed.

[PandaMine]

then i doubt more then 30% of people would care since those that really care about balance are 1v1 players in the majority.

Actually if anything, 30% of the people that play SS play single player and the rest do team games. 90% of people that post on the forums only do 1v1, but there are a lot more people playing the game then on the forums. From what I have seen 8/10 games are always team games in the lobby

[dtitov]

well for this particlar case since it's the forums goers discussin it's safe to say that team games is of little concern. (my only quick*nobrainer* team balancing fix would be to remove population cap for all relic units and no pop cap bonus imbavatar)

[PandaMine]

well for this particlar case since it's the forums goers discussin it's safe to say that team games is of little concern

Little concern to the forumers

More of a concern to relic.

Who does the balancing?

[Pseudonymn]

What the heck would a Tier 3/4 upgrade to NWs fix?

It would fix their T3/T4, which is certifiably broken. Necrons currently lose consistently in not only in 1v1 (T1/T2) but also in any game that happens to reach T3/T4 (especially team games), where they've always been relatively weak.

NW's can't approach any army without melting away before firing a single shot. FO's are just about as bad given that they take forever to claw their way up out of the ground and no one with two brain cells to rub together will stand around once what's left of them are finally out and on the move. No, they'll kite them and pick them off until there are none left. Wraith have limited use in later tiers as they just don't have enough left to hold out in melee for very long - to say nothing about being countered by melee elites. What does that leave them with? Destroyers with poor health and medium veh armor? A body camped NL? And a slow as hell 7500 HP mono that is an instant missile target with absolutely no means of escape once its health has been reduced by only a small fraction.

On that note, the mono needs a higher effective HP pool to work with before it's broken and RTB. I would also like to suggest that the mono's teleportation health restrictions be removed. It's not consistent with Necron mastery of time and space (FACT: obliterated Necrons and their weapons -all- phaze out without restriction or exception - no reason the mono cant also teleport at anytime). Also, if we aren't going to give NW's a range buff in T3/T4, give the mono two teleportation charges, or at least reduce the time it takes to charge the second jump. It might then make monoporation, currently NW's only means of attacking T4 armies at full strength, a more workable tactic.

Necrons aren't currently DoW's basement-dwelling race because they are made of win, after all.

[mlai]

To first fix Crons T3-T4, their eco must be fixed: Eco re-tweak, gen build-time scaling fix, gen cost scaling tweak. That is central.

What you want sounds like a DFIII after Energy Core is built: Their hps go back to 1000 per man, and their range increases to 25. As long as you concede that NWs should not get 25 range until this tier, then the upgrade seems workable.

I've been arguing hard against it because I believe that some were asking for range 25 by the time of DFII.

Ofc none of this matters because Relic is done with SS.

[PandaMine]

As long as you concede that NWs should not get 25 range until this tier, then the upgrade seems workable.

Thats what T3/T4 means. We have been saying range upgrade in T3/T4 for the past 3 pages

[Rotlung]

From what I have seen 8/10 games are always team games in the lobby

Most of the 1v1s are in automatch, I think, despite its current state. I don't really know how many play 2v2s, 3v3s and 4v4s in automatch.

FO's are just about as bad given that they take forever to claw their way up out of the ground and no one with two brain cells to rub together will stand around once what's left of them are finally out and on the move.

If I remember correctly, FOs are invulnerable when clawing out of the ground, and only start taking damage once they are able to move.

[PandaMine]

Yes you are right. Doesn't change the fact that they take like a year to get of the ground

[dtitov]

Oh come on, you really think there's going to be any SS patching after DOW2 comes out ?

[mlai]

Oh come on, you really think there's going to be any SS patching after DOW2 comes out ?

I don't think there's anyone under the illusion that there will be any more SS patches. Look, Relic can't even bother to fix Automatch. Relic did fix the maps bug, incredibly.

Yes you are right. Doesn't change the fact that they take like a year to get of the ground

They start sapping morale as soon as they start their claw-up animation, though. In DC this was considered as a strength, not the weakness you make it out to be.

Thats what T3/T4 means. We have been saying range upgrade in T3/T4 for the past 3 pages

You may want to re-read starting from page 1, and count how many ppl are suggesting range 25 by the time of DFII upgrade.

[Old Painless]

Me included. T2 25 range please. I really enjoy facing off against long range heavy weapons and not being able to shoot back.

[dtitov]

problem is if you could your troops would be superior in every way. Unless of course that was sarcasm. My sarcasm detector fails when i get as little sleep as i did today.

[Old Painless]

Having the same range as everybody elses basic weapons is 'superior' ?

[corncobman]

I'm honestly not sure about the T2 range increase. The more I think about it the more I like the extra research in T3/4.

[Kudoku]

well, t2.5 NWs Do need a buff, otherwise there won't be so many threads about necrons balance. Since 1vs1 hardly reach t4 buffing them there would be pointless.
My question wasn't if they needed a fix or not, but How would you fix them, so can we please stay on topic?

[zakublazer]

First i'd decrease the cost of a second mono. It's rediculous the amount it costs now,

[Danustar]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned NW's excellent FotM as the accepted trade off for inferior range.

That said, I still think their melee damage should scale with their upgrades.
There seems to be a contradiction in their current fromat. They are designed to deal effective damage whilst continually closing on enemy troops yet if they actually make it into CC from T2 onwards they're boned.

[PandaMine]

Their excellent FotM is their because of the fact that NW move as slow as a grandma.

[Gannadene]

Their FotM does not come into play on approach. They die before they fire, so being able to fire well on the move doesn't help when you never get to use your trigger. Their range is the problem. Forum-goers unfortunately don't know what games are like outside of 1v1. It's fairly apparent given some of the replies.

[Melchior]

I'm not an expert at using Necrons, so please take what I say with a grain of salt.

I have found some success with abandoning necron warriors altogether once immortals can be fielded and supporting them with melee-stance destroyers.

The immortals cost the same price as NWs. They have half the health (once both of the 200 energy upgrades are researched) and (if you take into account the two upgrades) half the ranged damage (or less) and much worse FOTM.

HOWEVER, they have half the reinforcement time, a fraction of the build time, 3 times the melee DPS, have easily twice the range, are much faster walkers and can still turn vehicles into slag within seconds.

Of the positive points, I think that range and build time are the most important. What immortals lack in raw DPS, they can more than make up for with ability to actually HIT the enemy and chase them. Unlike with NW, it is the enemy that starts dying before they can get into range (not fire warriors, of course).

Furthermore, immortal melee DPS is actually very good for a ranged unit and jump troops usually do not live very long if they land in a mass of immortals.

However, mass immortals are only effective if there is someone to tie up the opposing mass infantry. I cannot stress enough how useful MELEE destroyers and lord destroyers are for this task. Those super-fast mini-dreadnaughts hold the enemy in place to be pounded at leisure by the immortals.

I really cannot stress enough how useful lord destroyers can be.

If you use them like Space-jesus on speed and the special ability to nullify MULTIPLE squads at once, you'll learn to love them. The only down-side with using lord destroyers with mass immortals is that it is quite difficult to possess vehicles since, as mentioned before, vehicles usually do not last very long.

Always, of course, lead advances with the pariahs.

[Inst]

Destroyer ranged attacks are overrated, btw. They're nothing special; what makes Destroyers really powerful is the fact that they're a fast vehicle and can easily get into melee with enemy squads. The Destroyers are basically Tier 2 versions of Wraiths.

[The Deciever]

Aren't flayed ones supposed to be fast and can jump really far according to fluff?

[Rotlung]

Being "stooped yet terrifyingly agile beasts" doesn't necessarily mean they are fast and can jump far...

[PandaMine]

Well in TT, none of necrons infantry are supposed to be incredibly slow. Both NW and FO have average movespeed for infantry. Its just that none of Crons units move faster either (apart from Wraiths), and they have no transport options

[Gannadene]

Massing Immortals is usually more effective but incredibly risky. If a single melee squad gets through your formation into your Immortals, it's over. The Warriors are a buffer for your formation in later tiers when you're making pushes through an enemy mass. They're the only mid-range unit a Necron has, and the only ranged infantry option.

Sad state of affairs.

[zakublazer]

just ram the melee troops with your destroyer.

I'm not sure about immortals, so i'll try it out for my self a bit and get back to you later.
But Melee squads are definitly not a problem as them can be neutralized by your fast moving vehicle.

[Pseudonymn]

OT, but this needs to be addressed...

Being "stooped yet terrifyingly agile beasts" doesn't necessarily mean they are fast and can jump far...

Yes it does, actually. Like SM Scouts, they are able to move quickly through cover. Also, there is no speed penalty applied to FOs or, indeed, any other Necron infantry. They all move at the same base rate as the infantry of other armies.

Also, http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/agile.html

Granted, they don't have any leap attacks that allow them to cover extra ground in a turn. But we can use our imaginations; they are not the plodding, swiping goons that DoW has made them out to be and it's always bothered me that Necrons were slowed in the manner that they were in DoW.