[SS 1.2] Necrons: how wold you fix them?

[Kudoku]

Reading around, Necrons are referred as the worst race of SS, there have been a lot of topics about the matter and everyone seems to agree they need an improvement. Still even with 1.2 things are nearly unchanged.

My question is, why they are still so weak and how can they really be fixed?
Maybe if we finally made a good thread relic will listen to us


EDITED: with the tips posted


Economy

Archive 100/120 power
Second Mono 375 power
1 global 200/250
2 global 350
energy core 450
no decay generators for crons is a no brainer


NW

1 upgrade same +4 range
2 upgrade the same
3 upgrade once reached t3 +130 (back as t2 DC) life and another 35% damage

Fix auto-resurrection so that it's actually a benefit (better range,more health, etc)


Lord Destroyer
increase the range of posses to 25-30
make him return with at least 50% life


Builder Scarabs
250 hp each 4 squad cap

attack scarabs require a thread all to themselves!
Back as they were?


I think that`s all we agree on

[Pseudonymn]

This is the thread you want: <<CLICK>>

[Orgad_E]

Necrons rely on delaying the enemy and keeping him at bay while they tech:
solar pulse, chrono, flayed ones, all will just delay the enemy for the necrons to get some buildings, then teleport away before the enemy sets up with some HB/DR spam/FWs/W/E to kill them. they cant actually kill the FWs, HB, or other equivilants, becuase they are so slow. the lords abilities/their units can make the enemy flee for a short while and let them do damage. the killing is to be done by things like destroyers/immortals. so what are the NWs for? for chasing the enemy and keeping them at bay for as long as possible. that is where they fail. they simply die too fast for their job.
so i suggest a health boost to NWs early game, something like 50-60, and the same health boost + range upgrade (+4?) to late game. done.

edit: i ment another +4.

[Pseudonymn]

They already get the +4 late game. It's T2 where it's a problem - and remains a problem - through to T3-T4. Necron DFI/II research should provide +4/+4 to range for a total of +8 after T3. I'd like to see better FOM accuracy with those researches as well. I don't know that they'd need anymore HP beyond that, however. They're tough enough; they just need to be able to do some DPS before they melt.

[Orgad_E]

thats just what i meant: they arent meant to do the damage (dps is damage per second)
they are meant to tank well, make them tankier!

[ImmortalChaos]

\o/ for the forth necron thread on the first page!

Anyways, some changes I would start with:

Archive cost -> 120 power/70 seconds (and let it be used to start T2)
Second mono cost -> 375 power
1st global cost -> 350 power
2nd global cost -> 400 power


After that, I'd say it'd require some testing to see if the economy is back on the too strong side again... if it is, the globals could be re-nerfed. If it isn't, we could then look at buffing some of the units.

[Etros]

Necrons have 2 big problems


1 Economy

Archive 100 power
Second Mono 375 power
1 global 200
2 global 350
energy core 450

Normally we can aim for a +80 power t1, in Dc with the same amount of resources we got +90 power
then 300 global for 33% on 90 = +30 total -> 1min 40 sec to pay back + time of the research
in the end we got +120

now 200 for 25% on +80 = +20 -> 1min 40 sec to pay back + time of the research
in the end we have +100 add increased tier cost and weaker NW (more casualties more NW to reinforce) it`s really a good nerf

2 NW
1 upgrade same +4 range
2 upgrade the same
3 upgrade once reached t3 +130 (back as t2 DC) life and another 35% damage

this point has alredy been discussed a lot, too much health lead to a baseraping so the only solution is more range and t3 NWs are really lackluster



Less importan fixes would be


Immortals
reduce the initial cost to 120
reduce build from spider to 5 bodies
30 power of squad tax is too much while 6 bodies it`s an overkill with the overall increase in body cost


NL
double his ranged damage, it`s really pitiful now.
the NL is made to support and harass, now he has problems killing a builder and his ranged damage won`t even scale


Lord Destroyer
increase the range of posses to 25-30
make him return with at least 50% life
well what to say, nobody use LD now

Builder Scarabs
250 hp each 4 squad cap
Scarabs are vital for the necrons, now they die too quick

[phoenixzs]

Added to the small changes;
And also dont forget the Tomb Spider and the Flying Scarabs

I mean nobody upgrades the weapon of the tomb spider;It should be somewhat increased in damage and the melle penalty for upgrading should be decreased.

Flying scarabs are just shit.They should be able to attack perhaps buildings on the ground but not units.They were very nice before when they could tie up units.Right now as a counter to aircrafts which is already a seldom used unit type is bringing no advantage to the race.

But I agree that the need for eco boom in Necron is a huge problem.The need for it should be decreased.

There should possibly be an costly upgrade(250energy?) which makes wraith a squad with 2 or 3 units at tier 2.

What bugged me from the begining was that the necron always seemed a straight line of choices.In other races you have upgrades that need planing like if you are going to use banshees you give priority to the banshee excharc upgrade or scout with sniper tactics require an investment also.

Other than that the vehicle building could be a bit cheaper with the difference added to the 3 tier upgrade maybe.I always felt like the skimmers of necrons didnt hit the field early enough.

[Pseudonymn]

they arent meant to do the damage (dps is damage per second)
they are meant to tank well, make them tankier

True, but if you make them too tanky, then we are back to the march of doom, and I don't think anyone here wants to go that route again. But they have to do -some- dps before they get mowed down. In order to achieve this, they need better range upgrades.

What bugged me from the begining was that the necron always seemed a straight line of choices

This is a throwback to TT wherein they are just as linear in their options on the field.

[zakublazer]

maybe NW build time should not scale so much?
it's extremely difficult to replace squad, and basically if you lose even one of your starting squads you are done for, you will NOT replace it even if you have the resources. unless you go for spyder.
no other race suffer such a huge penalty if they lose a squad.

You know wat's a really fun idea? make LP3 capable of producing units (they are just teleporting to the mono anyway, no reason they can't change desinition)

[dtitov]

i'd say

FOR BALANCE

1)NW
- make warriors cost money
- remove time scaling for NW (and possibly increase build time)
- make them walk a bit faster at T2 via some kinda upgrade.
- give them some range upgrade at T3

2)NL
Make artifact be re-purchasable after death (to better adapt as necrons are very bad at that as is)




FOR FUN(to try)

Make res orb good again (and possibly move to T4) (if free slugga are okay surely non-free NW would be fine rezzed like they were in DC). I really want this super cool looking ability to be useful again (the animation of NL slamming rez orb into the ground following by massively raising corpses is epic).

Make lord attachable with nerfs (not sure what kind probably ability nerfs)

[PandaMine]

Warriors should scale in the opposite way they do currently, i.e. the first comes out slowly and when you already have lots on the field they come out quicker

That actually makes sense, and is with the necron fluff of an unbeatable army.

[hicks_91]

fluff =/= balance

And make build slower, are you nuts? Other than turreting (which takes a massive chunk out of starting power), ties up valuable scarabs and is pretty noticable, warriors are all crons have vs an early rush until the lord pops out.

Leave their build time for n= 0, thankyou

[Orgad_E]

we dont want anyone to have an unbeatable army at any tier. that would be stupid.

[PandaMine]

hicks I think you misunderstood it

Currently, the less necron warriors you have on the field the quicker they come out of your mono. This means that when you already have 3 or 4 full squads of NW fielded (which would easily happen in T3/T4), getting another NW out of you're mono takes like 30-50 seconds. Not only does this make them over reliant on spyders to rebuild their army, it also goes against the idea that necrons are designed to be a "tanky" race that achieves its tankiness with high HP units, low reinforce times and ressurection.

I want the opposite, that they build slower at the start however once you already have crons fielded then they build a lot faster . Obviously numbers would have to be tweaked

we dont want anyone to have an unbeatable army at any tier. that would be stupid.

Orks and IG would beg to differ. If the race is next to useless for 2 tiers (apart from Wraith spam against Tau or Eldar) I would bloody hope they would make up for it later on

[Danustar]

This means that when you already have 3 or 4 full squads of NW fielded (which would easily happen in T3/T4), getting another NW out of you're mono takes like 30-50 seconds.

Am I getting this right?
You want your first NW squad to take 60 seconds to build?
Way to fix T3 build times. Lose in T1. ^^

Just to be clear, can we all agree that Flayed Ones are perfect now?

[ViS]

PandaMine, everyone! He'll be here all week!

[Etros]

Just to be clear, can we all agree that Flayed Ones are perfect now?

hell, no!
they are so slow that are hardly useful most of the time, but stronger FO will be imba again.

Something that would help is reducing the recharge time of the teleport to 40 sec making them on pair with other jump units

That actually makes sense, and is with the necron fluff of an unbeatable army.

There`s no way relic will completely change Crons playstyle now, the best we can hope for is a fix, it`s kinda pointless posting revolutionary fluff-based ideas.
Even if i really loved that, but hey, let`s be realistic

[Derogator]

If the Necrons start out with a Necron Warrior from the start then it might work. Even so, too much of an overhaul.

[Old Painless]

The Tomb Spyder ranged upgrade is actually okay when you concider its range as well as its damage.

[dtitov]

well obviously this whole thread is more of "wouldn't it be cool if..." considering DOW2 is less then 2 months away with possibility of beta sometime this week. You don't REALLY think anyone would spend their time on patching SS when they could be milking their new cash cow ?

[ViS]

Starting them off with a NW squad would make them immune to harassment by any capper other than Drakes.

[dtitov]

Even drakes somewhat considering scarabs detect and pretty much any nec either maxes out scarabs asap or after 1st NW squad

[ViS]

Why would the Drakes be cloaked against Necs?

[ImmortalChaos]

A warrior squad beats a drake squad in melee with no losses. I don't think any capper would be able to touch a nec base with a NW starting squad.

[PandaMine]

Am I getting this right?
You want your first NW squad to take 60 seconds to build?
Way to fix T3 build times. Lose in T1. ^^

I said with adjustments....

In any case, its too late. Necrons is an example of a race that is built on a shit foundation. No matter what you do with them, they will either be seriously overpowered or underpowered. A total overhaul would be required to make them "balanced"

[PwnD]

Some suggestions to improve Crons, I pushed the list to 10 so some are a bit tenuous - flame away ...

1 reduce scaling time for NW so 1st/2nd squads can come out earlier
2 give monolith some reduced gauss turret ability to avoid need for immediate turret from starting resource (!)
3 NW can obtain a range increase from SC in tier 3/4
4 no generator decay
5 cap building/energy costs for gens so no increase after 8 gens - limits as per number liths built
6 wraiths have HP/damage upgrade in tier 3/4
7 attack scarabs require a thread all to themselves!
8 increase range/HP of LD so that he is actually used
9 allow some upgrades to vehicle armour/HP/damage so they can be improved from tier 2 to tier 4
10 allow NL to change abilities from the archive but have some tier 2/3/4 specific.

[Gannadene]

I actually got tired of debating this without any results, so I just made a mod that fixed them to my liking. Personally, I did quite a few things:

*Raised Warrior range to 35 with a third upgrade that comes after the Energy Core for 350 energy.

*Upgraded Flayed One and Warrior speed by one or two.

*Made the Necron Lord's weapon damage scale based on tier upgrades across Monoliths.

*Reduced Solar Pulse's area of effect and raised its cast range.

*Made Rez Orb passively raise at a higher rate with better health gain.

*Increased the Tomb Spyder's health and harvest range

*Capped Flayed Ones to 2 and increased their morale damage, and increased their reinforcement to 10.

*Increased Lord Destroyer cap range and allowed them to capture Baneblades and Land Raiders (admittedly, this is just for fun on my part, as I'm just playing this against AI most of the time).

*Made Attack Scarabs land units again. Capped them to 1 squad and raised their reinforcement to 20, but lowered their reinforcement time from 3.5 (or whatever) to 5.

*Allowed Warriors to regenerate in combat by 1. All Necron units that couldn't regenerate health now can, by 1 tick per second.

*Wraiths now reinforce to 5 per squad but have much lower health and cost more, including 3 pop. They scale based on Wraithflight and a new Wraithflight 2 that increases their health, so that they're more comparable to Flayed Ones, although they die very easily in melee against "true" melee squads. They can now be built from Tomb Spyders, replacing Flayed Ones, which can't be.

*Lowered Pariahs to 3 pop.

I actually have a list of about thirty changes I made, but that's what I can remember off the top of my head. I honestly just got sick of how poorly thought out Necrons were, and took it upon myself to fix them. They don't scale like they should, and half of their units are near worthless. A lot of what makes certain artifacts almost useless and certain units (definitely Wraiths) is that they do NOT SCALE. They're stuck in their T1 forms. Chronometron isn't going to do a lot for you if you're assaulting a fortified T4 Chaos base. Phase Shifter is a cute trick, but it won't cover enough area in T4 to protect your range-inept Warriors.

Generally, Necrons just need better scaling and some very small T1-2 buffs to make sure they don't get raped because of their pathetic early economy.

[mlai]

Necronomy:
1. Build time scaling for gens by a linear +10 secs each, rather than a multiplicative +22% each.

Warriors:
1. Increase resurrect range to 30 (from 20). Decrease delay time to 1 sec.
2. Disruption Field III, 200 pow, 30 secs, req Energy Core.
-> NW health from 870 to 1000.
-> Gauss Flayer damage incr by 5%.
-> This upgrade makes the SS NW the same as DC NW after DFII upgrade.

Flayed, Immortals:
1. Increase resurrect range to 30 (from 20). Decrease delay time to 1 sec.

Resurrection Orb:
"This ability also provides a passive 25% bonus to the chance Necron troops within a radius of 25 will get up on their own when slain." -> Increase radius to 35.

I think that's all Necs need.

[Old Painless]

Hows about taking more than 3 artifacts ?

[ViS]

Making an necessarily overpowered unit even more overpowered?

Great.

The problem lies with the Necron eco. Buff it to something a little less ridiculous than their DC eco before touching anything else. The changes Gannadene made are totally ridiculous and buff Necrons in areas that shouldn't be touched full-stop.

[Gannadene]

Heh. Fortunately, I'm just playing the AI these days. Got tired of dropped games.

My personal changes actually haven't done a whole lot outside of T4, which is what I was concerned about. You can shout "economy" all day, but having a hojillion energy in your stockpile isn't going to make Necrons any better outside of pressure games, which is exactly what 1v1 and 2v2 games are. Necrons are not an equal MU in T4. You have to clutch onto your Solar Pulse and pray at that point. Stasis and NS can lend a helping hand, but generally, you'll be outranged and disrupted long before you can get all of your units into range. In every respect, you have to be a better tactician and make great use of the map just to survive. I got tired of that.

[ViS]

Good players don't float.

[Schmapdi]

Here's what I would do: The non-ambitious approach.

1. NW and FO get a tiny speed boost (uo tp Immortal speed)
2. NW get another tiny upgrade improving health/damage/range
3. Fix auto-resurrection so that it's actually a benefit (better range,more health, etc)
4. Move the damn Tomb Spyders so they come out like any other unit (personal peeve)
5. Lower wraith pop cap to 1, set a hard cap of 2-3.
6. Give the monolith a weak turret effect for early Cron defense.
7. The ability to reset artifacts so you can re-buy them (for cost) later on if wanted.

[ViS]

Giving the Mono a turret will totally screw every harassment attempt the opponent will pull on you.

[Chaingun]

Been playing some DC1.2 the past few days, and boy does that bring back memories from imbacron. Whatever is done, be VERY careful about in how you buff them, or we'll again see noobs pwn again.

[Orgad_E]

how bout buffing scarabs hp by 50 each? will help alot vs early harrasements. also no decay generators for crons is a no brainer.

[Etros]

Been playing some DC1.2 the past few days, and boy does that bring back memories from imbacron. Whatever is done, be VERY careful about in how you buff them, or we'll again see noobs pwn again.

DC Necrons weren`t that OP
They had an uber economy and 2 borked units, FO and Wraiths.
Nerf should have been restricted to that

Against SM/Chaos/Orks the MU was quite fair, not to mention t3/4 that were always weak

[Kudoku]

Ok thank guys, i`ll edit my 1 post with the tips

[Derogator]

Here's what I would do: The non-ambitious approach.

1. NW and FO get a tiny speed boost (up to Immortal speed)
2. NW get another tiny upgrade improving health/damage/range
3. Fix auto-resurrection so that it's actually a benefit (better range, more health, etc.)
4. Move the damn Tomb Spyders so they come out like any other unit (personal peeve)
5. Lower Wraith pop cap to 1, set a hard cap of 2-3.
6. Give the Monolith a weak turret effect for early Necron defense.
7. The ability to reset artifacts so you can re-buy them (for cost) later on if wanted.

I agree with this list somewhat, except for giving the Monolith a turret. They already have the best Turrets.

Other than that I'll just add to make the Necrons regenerate 1HP during combat, not just out of combat.

[Etros]

Cap Wraith at 2-3 and good luck beating even the noobest Tau/eldar

a turret will be too strong, more hp for scarabs is enough to avoid devastating rushes

[mlai]

@ Kudoku:

I think you're overdoing it. You're proposing to buff Necronomy, and making NWs stronger than they were ever in DC, and buffing the LD which no one had srsly complained about.

[Etros]

I think you're overdoing it. You're proposing to buff Necronomy, and making NWs stronger than they were ever in DC, and buffing the LD which no one had srsly complained about.

Seriously tell me that LD doesn`t need a buff?


For the NWs maybe augmenting the auto-res is a bit too much, but stronger than DC?
Consider DC NW death march: 1k hp warriors and a rebuild from spyder of 3 bodies
Now: 870 hp and and 4 bodies, it`s 130 hp less and 1/3 body more (and well 43hp less of autoress for the hp nerf), can`t possibly say +4 range and more hp from autoress is stronger than DC.

[ImmortalChaos]

The suggestions currently in the OP are overdoing it by FAR. 200 and 350 power for the first and second globals is way too much, first of all. Buffing the warriors first two upgrades is totally uncalled for-with +4 range in each upgrade they would be much more powerful than 1.2 DC.

As for lord destroyers... you think the ability to delete enemy tanks isn't good enough?

[corncobman]

I actually disagree with adding a 3rd NW research, don't know why.

First NW research only should add a +4 range increase. Second one should be unchanged.

Flayed Ones speed increased by 1 or 2 at the most.

Auto-resurrect range increased slightly, resurrect health 40% instead of 30%.

Economy buffed slightly: Globalresearches cost reduced by 50 power only.

2nd Monolith cost reduced slightly (50) but not really necessary IMO.

SMALL changes only. Jeez haven't you learnt anything from DC at all?

[Etros]

The suggestions currently in the OP are overdoing it by FAR. 200 and 350 power for the first and second globals is way too much, first of all. Buffing the warriors first two upgrades is totally uncalled for-with +4 range in each upgrade they would be much more powerful than 1.2 DC.

As for lord destroyers... you think the ability to delete enemy tanks isn't good enough?

I disagree, 200 for 1 global will keep DC paybacktime with a nerf of +20 power income, maybe make it 250, more will be too costly

Nobody want to buff the NW 2 DF, i just said +4 range for the 1th, that mean 25 range in t2.5 when everyone has at least a range of 35

Sure the ability to possess tanks is more than enough, i only want to really possess tanks and not just dying trying

[corncobman]

IMO the Lord Destroyer doesn't need a buff.

It has Stasis, which potentially takes a significant portion of enemy forces out of the game. Not to mention Possession.

And you get 2 of them which means you can take both of the enemies tier 3/4 tanks at once.

[mlai]

@ Corncobman:

My buffs for Necrons are smaller than yours oho ho ho...

@ Etros:

You also said DC 1.2 Necrons aren't very overpowered. We know where you stand.

NWs never EVER had range 25, not even in DC 1.0. Stop trying to make it sound like a good idea.

LD's possession ability does not fizzle out if the opponent tries to escape with his tank. You have the ability to make any tank run for its life. And you can Stasis it if you don't want it to run. It's more than good enough.

[Gannadene]

The Lord Destroyer's main issue is that it's not a combat unit. If your opponent doesn't have a vehicle worth taking (or one sealed far away from your front lines, like artillery), then the Lord Destroyer is essentially a hovering Solar Pulse. At some point, depending on the situation, it's going to be a bad investment if you compare it to a Destroyer or H. Destroyer. A Lord Destroyer is its two abilities, and little else.

[Etros]

You also said DC 1.2 Necrons aren't very overpowered. We know where you stand.

NWs never EVER had range 25, not even in DC 1.0. Stop trying to make it sound like a good idea.

LD's possession ability does not fizzle out if the opponent tries to escape with his tank. You have the ability to make any tank run for its life. And you can Stasis it if you don't want it to run. It's more than good enough.

Dc Nec weren`t that much overpowered, they were just a piss easy noobish race. As someone said at low level Crons are very strong while at the top they plan sux, surely if you aren`t good at micro is a hell taking down Necrons.

Who said Dc NW had 25 range? That`s something a lot of people agree on. Hearing you seems that NW just need better resurrection range

Lord destroyer is another nobrainer, we are speanking about a t4 unit here... with 1750 hp 8 range and wich takes 6 full seconds to possess a tank....surely if the enemy sent the tank alone ok, otherwise its nearly impossible to make him survive that long, there is a reason if noone use it...