[SS 1.2] noob Fire Warrior suggestion

[Arkandea]

I know there's been a fan-made mod for Soulstorm which nerfs Tau and Eldar and boosts Crons, but I just want to hear what people think of this nerf to Fire Warriors.

We give them a squad hard-cap of 3, and boost maximum number of members to 11 (including sergeants/shield drones)

I reckon this would be a simple way to nerf their ridiculous FW spam in later stages - they're still as powerful as ever, just now more can be engaged in melee at once, thus causing the Tau to have more micro of his own to prevent this.

And it's not like hard-capping to 3 squads would kill them. Tau have other units they can use to fill up the gaps in their max squad pop.

Would that work?

[BuBa_HoTeP]

That sounds like quite a good nerf maybe later in the game 3 squads would not be enuff for tau tho ? also it would make for easier spam in t1 i mean 1ce they get those 3 units they can mass them so easy imagine the 3 units at full mass the damage they would do if your not tieing up 1 of those units it would be enuff on its own to own anything t1 so easy . but its a nice idea 3 FW units is about the right amount to tie up in t1 after that it gets silly

[Heathen]

How would reducing the number of max squads make massing them easier? I presume every individual soldier added still costs the same, right?
The limiting factor never was the squad pop cap but their price, at least at the beginning of the game.

[KotCR]

Eh...possibly but I don't think it'd be fair. Fire Warriors are supposed to be Tau's core infantry choice. But, as you mentioned, it probably wouldn't hurt Fire Warriors much in T1 where they are balanced anyway, so that's a good thing.

But saying that, Necron Warriors are supposed to be Necrons core infantry choice and I had a similiar idea for them (in an attempt to make those notoriously long squad build times for later squads fairer), so I guess I shouldn't say much.

[mlai]

Although I can't comment on if this whole thing is a good idea, a softer nerf would be to apply build-time scaling to FW squads. As in... the more FW squads you have, the longer it takes the next squad to come out of the barracks.

[Arkandea]

^ I think that's a debatable nerf, the whole point of FW mass is slowly increasing their numbers while being careful not to lose them - in a kind of "snowball rolling down hill" effect.

That said, slowing the squad build time would slow the snowball down so to speak, but it doesn't change the fact that when it's picked up speed, it crushes almost anything.

[Derogator]

I'd say they should only have one squad leader instead of two.

[Heathen]

I think they should still have two leader units, but be forced to split them between Shas'Ui and Drone, no free choice. 'Cause everybody just builds two Shas'Ui anyway.

[ImmortalChaos]

But, as you mentioned, it probably wouldn't hurt Fire Warriors much in T1 where they are balanced anyway, so that's a good thing.

>Fire Warriors
>T1
>balanced

Haha, oh wow.

The issue with fire warriors is that they are the unquestionable and absolute most powerful unit in critical mass in T1. This lasts until mid T2. Nothing can stand up to fire warriors in numbers 'till that point; this on top of Tau's very strong economy (thanks to SS) and very strong harassment capabilities (thanks to 'pids/TC) is what makes an imbalanced race.


A nerf like that is just... silly. Fire warriors wouldn't be changed at all. It's very rare to see more than 4 squads of them even now, and with that change it would do absolutely nothing, because instead of getting a 4th squad you'd just have three mighty squads of 11 guys.

If I was going to suggest a nerf to fire warriors, I'd say reduce their effectiveness versus commander armor (again) so that they can be tanked a little more easily. Other than that, tau needs nerfing in other parts of their race, really.

[KotCR]

The issue with fire warriors is that they are the unquestionable and absolute most powerful unit in critical mass in T1.

If they get to critical mass, perhaps. But it's easy enough to stop them doing that. If an opponent just builds Fire Warriors and nothing else, as Tau, I guarantee you he will lose the match.

You can stop somebody who builds nothing but Fire Warriors with nothing but Scouts if you want (well, you'll need to get some Tacs or the FC or something a bit later to actually smash some buildings).
Honest.
Course you need to stop them reaching critical mass, as you said.

What makes Fire Warriors seem so strong in T1 though is the Snare Traps of the Tau Commander, the Sonic Pulse of the Vespids, the easibility of mixing with Kroot, the strong map control elements of SS, or the ridiculously cheap race infrastructure.
As what people mostly see here though, is Fire Warriors killing things, they blame it on the Fire Warriors.

But, if you take the Fire Warriors on their own, with no other elements supporting them, you realise that they don't do so well at all. Their HP is absolutely abysmal (or rather their resilience, which of course becomes fixed and makes them imba later on as their other strengths are magnified further and they get heavy_high, but that's not in T1), and as a result if you don't control potential return fire in T1 correctly (which you will need other elements of the Tau army to do), you are going to lose them fairly quickly.

If I was going to suggest a nerf to fire warriors, I'd say reduce their effectiveness versus commander armor (again) so that they can be tanked a little more easily. Other than that, tau needs nerfing in other parts of their race, really.

I agree with that though. Still, if you reduce it too much what are Tau going to use to kill Commanders in T1? Saying that, Kroot don't seem to do too badly against some commanders, anyway. It's just one or two specific sync-killing melee monsters (prime example being the Big Mek), that they seem to sometimes have trouble with.

[Old Painless]

Snare traps make FW spam for me, a lot of people forget that you can go pure melee versus them and maul them terribly but if your on a multiplayer game your melee troops just get owned by the combined firepower of the enemy squads and you get pwnd.

Without traps the FW would spend there time running away from tacs with knives in there hands. Come back, we just want to play. lol.

If you can set a CC squad on the TC to hinder him your laughing. Even if its only a big squad of cappers.

[ViS]

You know that the TC does the same damage in melee as he does at range AND has jumps, right?

[ImmortalChaos]

@KotCR: I never said they can do that all alone; yes, they often need to fall back on a LP2 or counter harass to reach critical mass, and yeah, they need a SS or the TC to spot for them to be used to the best of their strength... but that does not change the fact that tau always had the option to right click on fire warriors and rape the crap out of your army the moment his economy sets in. It's not easy at all to stop that from happening.

Fire warriors may not be imbalanced on their own, but they are one very long nail in the coffin when we're talking about tau imbalance.



As for tau killing commanders after a bit more FW nerfs toward them... The TC still has his ability and decent damage to them; it's not like you'd be able to win a major conflict just by having a commander who was too resistant to FW firepower. In a firefight, chances are the FWs would simply melt all your squishy infantry first and force the commander to retreat, because he would be getting focus-fired.

The signigicance behind a FW commander damage nerf is that, if you're ever stuck in a position where you have to fight a few fire warrior squads, at least your commander might make it out alive.

[KotCR]

Yeh, they are one big nail in the coffin, but the difference is, the Fire Warriors on their own aren't overpowered. However, some of those supporting elements that help make the Fire Warriors seem overpowered, are/seem overpowered even without the Fire Warriors around. Meaning the best approach would be to knock them down a peg or two first, before going for the Fire Warriors.

SS Map Control, and the cheap base infrastructure, are probably the two better examples of this I mentioned. One might argue Snare Traps too, seems they also can benefit builds that don't use Fire Warriors, though it's hard to say how you'd change them in a way that wouldn't make them not effective enough.

[mlai]

@ Vis:

Yes, but that's better than (1)TC shooting with his base weapon AND his flamer, and (2)he spends most of his time doing his weak cc area attack.

@ KoTCR:

Yes, the other elements of the Tau army are the cause, and the FWs are the result. However, when it comes down to it, it's the FWs doing the killing.

Therefore, I think build-time scaling of FW squads (similar to NW squads but only squad-based not unit-based) is the easiest solution you're looking for. Force the Tau to use its Kroots, or tier up.

[KotCR]

and (2)he spends most of his time doing his weak cc area attack.

Actually Mlai, you'll find that if you switch the Tau Commander's stance from ranged to melee, he'll do that alot less.

When on ranged stance, Commanders are more inclined to do AoE and knockback attacks, in attempt to give them more chance to shoot. Surely you've noticed how the Force Commander does his sword sweep AoE almost all the time when somebody engages him in melee when he's on ranged stance. Stick him on melee stance though, he'll be quite happy to smash his sword straight into his opponent's chin.

The Tau Commander is no exception, the difference being his AoE attack has shite knockback, and so by the time the animation is done he's already back into melee, so you are best off just sticking him on melee stance when he's constantly getting engaged in melee. In melee stance, he'll use the AoE alot less often and instead just try walloping the enemy head-on...and cappers like Scouts and Cultists become far less useful for tying him up as a result (as he'll murder them quickly in melee when on melee stance).

[ImmortalChaos]

Wait, what? I've never known that. Though, kinda micro intensive to swich to melee every time something gets near you to stop those damn AoE attacks from getting him stuck though.

[mlai]

AFAIK, the stances have absolutely no effect on how often AOE cc attacks are used.
This is based on reading luas; the special attack lines never mention the stances.

[KotCR]

I believe it's hardcoded into the game.
If you don't believe me, try it. You'll see.

Don't you remember how way back people used to complain in particular about how the FC > Command Squad because they couldn't melee him?

You know why that was right? The Force Commander on ranged stance would always use a certain knockback attack on the Command Squad the second they engaged him in melee, and knock them back. He'd then whoop them a bit with his Pistol as they closed the distance again. Once they got into melee range, he'd just do the same thing. The exact same knockback attack, and the cycle would repeat. Ironically, if you set the FC to melee stance, he would get raped by the 2x Priest Command Squad as he'd instead focus on doing melee damage instead of knockbacks, letting the Priests do their DPS to him.

The code in the game seems to have changed for it along the lines somewhere, and it's not as predictable as it was once, but it's still there and in some form and you'll notice it in particular with the Tau Commander.

Go get a friend to try it with now. Do two tests, one with Scouts meleeing a Tau Commander on ranged stance, and one with them meleeing a Tau Commander on melee stance. You will notice the difference.

[Rotlung]

Wow I never knew any of these. But if I remember correctly my Command Squad has always been on melee stance, yet it enjoys throwing its melee attacks all over the place.

[KotCR]

Not sure how it works for the Command Squad, TBH. Seems as the Command Squad is a squad. It's possible it only affects single units, but TBH I've never experimented with it that much to see if it's affect squads or not.

I just know it almost certainly seems to have an affect on how commanders like the Chaos Lord, Force Commander and Tau Commander pick their attacks. Like I said, don't take my word for it, your best bet is to try it for yourself and see.

[Derogator]

I think they should still have two leader units, but be forced to split them between Shas'Ui and Drone, no free choice.

Yeah, that's what I said.

Maybe even just hard cap each leader at one so that it encourages players to use shield drones more.

[Heathen]

Maybe even just hard cap each leader at one so that it encourages players to use shield drones more.

And that's what I said.

I thought you meant only one leader unit overall. And then either Shas'Ui OR Drone.

[Derogator]

And that's what I said.

I thought you meant only one leader unit overall. And then either Shas'Ui OR Drone.

I see. I thought you meant they can still have both the Shas'Ui and the Shield Drone to choose from like now, but can only select one while the other grays out.

But yeah, we pretty much on the same page here, just misunderstood each other.

[Arkandea]

I think you guys are missing the point.

This nerf won't have much impact on FW mass early on, which is like KotCR said due to the race design being too strong and flexible. But surely you've been cut down by a ridiculous spam of FW middle-late game at some point?

Assuming that, you'll see why a hard-cap of three squads would make this much less lame. All you need are 3 ways to disable the squads, and you actually have a fighting chance.

Take for example a prime FW spam, you engage one in melee with your commander, send jump troops after the second, and break the morale of the third with lightning arc or a similar ability. There. All three squads are now rendered ineffective, and the Tau actually needs to use his brains to make a comeback.

Tau needing brains would be a refreshing change, I think.

[mlai]

Hard cap of a race's staple infantry is ridiculous. Hard cap is the last resort.
You need to slow down FW spam so that it can be played against and countered. You don't need to impose a draconian restriction on it.

[Old Painless]

I for one would be lost if it werent for snare traps. Take them away and its a huge nerf, at least in the very early game.

Maybe make them cost req rather than power and make them expensive ?

[Arkandea]

Hard cap of a race's staple infantry is ridiculous.

I know, but when that same infantry becomes an unstoppable juggernaut that tears through all infantry at a longer range then many infantry of the same tier can manage, I think hard capping is hardly an issue.

Besides, Tau have other infantry as well, and I for one would like to see more consistent use of Kroot; seems to me like many Tau players don't make any Kroot at all, and just get by with Snares and FW.

I think at the moment there's very little reason at all to mix FW and Kroot, it's either one or the other. Hard-capping would force the use of both, which is what the game originally intended anyway.

[D-coy]

Maybe decrease the power of the snare traps or increase their price by 5 power, or increase FW reinforce time or setup time just a bit.

Theorycraft FTW.

[desocupado]

Out of the game for a long time now, but I think snares are the problem, not the FWs. They are a good, cost effective unit, but I don't really think they're OP. It's the TC and the rest of the Tau that make they seem OP.

Me? I would nerf the snares, make them cost 30/30 and see how it goes from there.

[KotCR]

Indeed, making them cost req would help alleviate how cheap the rest of Tau's T1 infrastructure is. If Snare Traps took a fair bit of req to place, they'd finally be justification for how cheap the Tau RAX is for what it offers, justification for them having no Armoury-esque equivalent in T1 too (I mean even with Eldar you could argue they have Webway Gates).

If you had to choose between a Snare Trap or Kroot, or two Snares or a Fire Warrior, Tau would be far less inclined to recklessly and effortlessly use them.

[steel_tomatoes]

I believe it's hardcoded into the game.
If you don't believe me, try it. You'll see.

If you are right, then I proclaim this #1 pro tip of the week! Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you put attack preference on melee, but put his stance on stand ground (do not chase), then he will still use his ranged weapon until something moves into his melee range? And if you are correct, then he won't be quite so likely to use the damn AoE animation on a command squad and get himself pwnd. I'll definately be trying out the next time I stoop to using Tau.

[Chaingun]

(noob Fire Warrior) suggestion or noob (Fire Warrior suggestion)?

[Pseudonymn]

^ wut?

[KotCR]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you put attack preference on melee, but put his stance on stand ground (do not chase), then he will still use his ranged weapon until something moves into his melee range?

Yep, that's what I do.

[Chaingun]

^ wut?

I was referring to whether this thread is a suggestion about noob fire warriors or a noob suggestion about fire warriors.

[Orgad_E]

sounds useful kotcr, when set on the TC does he do that dumb jumping animation that takes forever and lose 500 hp or one of his short animations and then run?

also, its hard to choose targets that way (commnader will go and melee it)

[ImmortalChaos]

Snare traps are not the problem with tau. Against an enemy using ranged troops tau doesn't even need them at all, unless they are massing heavily. They're just icing, really.

[Orgad_E]

FWs can be countered in all tiers... jump troops and transports are the way. when trying to walk that +5 range with sm to use your HB squads you are being punished for doing something stupid.

have you seen what 2 tac squads + rhino and grenades do to 3-4 FW squads?

[Arkandea]

(noob Fire Warrior) suggestion or noob (Fire Warrior suggestion)?

Both, I guess. ^_^

have you seen what 2 tac squads + rhino and grenades do to 3-4 FW squads?

Assuming the tacs don't have heavy weapons (that would put the comparable prices waaay out of proportion) and the FW squads have sergeant and Pulse rifles (like they should at that stage) I think the FW would still win wouldn't they?

Though maybe SM could use Rhino "ram" to screw up FW firing...

[KotCR]

I'm unsure about Tier 2 'cus the situation never really arises when you'll be using Tacs without Heavy Weapons against Fire Warriors unless you already lost.

But in T1, 1 Tac Squad will beat 1 Fire Warrior Squad. The HP difference is what makes this happen.

In T2, both have more firepower but only the Tac has more HP (Tau have to wait till T3 for that, when they will get more HP and get a superior armour type, becoming vastly more durable, but, back to T2), so I could see one perhaps a single Bolter Marine squad with Frags (don't forget the Stun afterall), beating a single T2 Fire Warrior squad.

But then again, possibly not aswell, seems the Tau's squad leaders have more useful abilities. If the Tau puts a Drone Shield up, the Tacs aren't going to win a shootout. They'll have to attempt a melee at least until the Drone Shield wears off. Rhino Smoke Launchers may even that equation up again, but, it already would mean the SM are putting alot more resources into this than the Tau would be.

Still, we are talking in a vacuum here which is not really ever going to happen.

And while 1 Tacs may possibly > 1 FW Squad, that doesn't mean 2 Tacs > 3 FW Squads (and certainly not 4!).

[Old Painless]

Assuming the tacs don't have heavy weapons

best joke i've heard all day mate. You werent joking ?

There always going to be carrying heavy bolters, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS. Its like they are born with them attached to there arm. Add chappy for extra IMBA.

I dont see how the FW can beat them apart from to jump the TC into CC with one of the tac squads.

[KotCR]

Well, if SM are using Rhinos it's not unfair to assume Tau will be using SS anyway. EMP Grenade > Rhino. You might not close the distance and if you don't close the distance you are screwed.

I certainly wouldn't say a realistic SM T2 totally > Tau T2, and certainly not because of Fire Warriors. T2+ is when the Fire Warriors do start to get a bit imba on their own merits.

[Orgad_E]

vacum? never gonna happen?

happened to me alot. tacs with HB (8 tacs + 4 HB each, fc from t1 and maybe a chappy) gets out of rhinos, frags 2/3 of the fws, shoots for 3 seconds (killing around 1 squad) then jump back in the rhino waiting for grendaes to recharge before attacking the fws again.

meanwhile they drive around harassing lps, forcing the FWs to defend, leaving vespids to harass lp2s by themselves.

and the rhino dont actually have to get to close to the fws... it just has to get within 25 range, for the nades, meaning SS emp is hard to get off in time (however this is the only counter to rhinos i came up with) however with 2000 hp on the rhino you will need some strong AV power to kill it in the 10 seconds of the emp.

[KotCR]

I was talking about Tacs without Heavy Bolters, if you read.

But on Heavy Bolters...I'm not sure why you are having huge problems with Rhinos as Tau, Pathfinders have plenty of sight range (or just use SS) and if you see them coming you can stop them. From what I've seen, in an in-game situation, the Heavy Bolters on their own aren't always enough to out-shoot Fire Warriors, you need the extra damage from the smallarms fire of the other Marines in the squad, or the Stun from Frags, which shares a similiar short range.

If you see the Rhino coming, you can always fly an SS next to it, stun it, destroy the Rhino then gun down the Tacs as they try to get close. The SM probably won't see the SS, as the Skull Probe will be attached to a squad inside the Rhino, and by the time the SM realises they're about to be ninja'ed by an SS, it's already too late.

[Inst]

There's no reason you don't have Shas'vres online to EMP the Rhinos. Besides, you're tier 2. If you played properly you should have shitloads of Shas'ui ready to Photon Grenade the marines to death. They were nerfed down to 65 damage, right? Then 6 Photon Grenades should reduce the Marines to about 20% health, making them easy frags for the Fire Warriors.

I disagree, however, that Fire Warriors are ranged death incarnate. When it comes to direct fire, they're inferior in T1 to Space Marines, and heavy weapons in T2. The use of snare traps is critical to allow Fire Warriors to perform as needed in T1, and Shas'ui grenades are critical in T2.

[Arkandea]

best joke i've heard all day mate. You werent joking ?

Painless please explain to me how a comparison between 2 full TACs with heavy weapons and all upgrades AND Rhinos AND nades is fair to 4 FW teams?

The teching requirements for the Rhinos and the upgrades at the armory are already rather unfair, we're talking about a full-blown attack force VS what sounds like a mindless FW spam. Clearly the FW will lose if they're on their own, it's like saying a Baneblade isn't good because the Stealthsuit can shoot it until it dies, not a justified comparison.

[Old Painless]

have you seen what 2 tac squads + rhino and grenades do to 3-4 FW squads?

The original quote doesnt mention all upgrades at all.

we're talking about a full-blown attack force VS what sounds like a mindless FW spam

Again not what we were discussing.

I think your just picking up the argument, adding loads of stuff i didnt say and running with it. Not a lot to discuss.

[Arkandea]

We're discussing FW and their general performance (refer to thread title and opening post)

Orgad says

have you seen what 2 tac squads + rhino and grenades do to 3-4 FW squads?

Space Marine has to tech up to Rhinos and perform researches at the armory (they have to come from somewhere) to get these - that's tier 2.5. Four FW teams are tier 1, tier 2 with an upgrade.

It's true that SM force will devastate FW mass, no denying that. But it's hardly a fair comparison, and when it's used as an example stating that FW are quite fine as they are, it's a little confusing to lesser players like me (do tech and resource requirements not count in such examples?)

[KotCR]

Indeed, for a start in the above situation, Tau will only require a RAX, a Generator or two, and the PtE. And 1 Research (Advanced Pulse Rifles).

SM will require, a (more expensive) RAX, a Tier 2 tech upgrade, 3 or 4 Generators, an Armoury, a Machine Cult, and as many as 6 researches (Bionics 1+2, Target Finders 1+2, HWT Research, Frags).

If SM is using them, his squad leaders also require a larger investment than the Tau ones and additional researches themselves to become effective (at barebones, you'll want Plasma Pistols for them).

SM wins because it's made a massively larger long-term investment.

That's before we consider how Tau already are in the lead, having undoubtly gained an advantage in some way over SM in T1.