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Actually, I just noticed something. TSMs suck ass. Even when maxed out, they're still outperformed by Chaos Space Marines, who have access to the Berserk Fury ability, the ability to cloak, and the ability to get most of their damage potential in only 2 upgrades.
The only thing TSMs are good at is using their flamers and their rocket launchers versus vehicles. When it comes to heavy bolters and plasma, they are utterly inferior.
Yup. I've noticed that for a long while :P.
Tactical Marines trade alot for their flexibility.
Come T3, they are actually pretty fragile compared to what some of the other races have. Tacs don't really scale into T3 at all.
Ironically, Assault Marines generally perform better than TSMs as a T2 spam unit. They're comparable to Khorne Berserkers once fully upgraded, of course, there's nothing in the SM inventory comparable to the Mark of Khorne.
Problem is that ASM have a squad cap of 3, and become useless after T2 where as at least you can put HB's on your TSM and use rhinos to offset their fragility
Yeh, ASM spam can be pretty nasty. That's why their cap cost went up from 2 to 3 a while back...because with all upgrades they are comparable to 'zerkers (though, not quite as strong still - roughly 30% weaker taking HP and DPS into account, and still possessing the achilles heel that is Morale - You'll often find your ASM squads perma-broken before they are actually eliminated).
'course with Power Swords/Fists at their disposal, and Melta Bombs, the ASM will perform significantly more effectively against enemy armour than 'zerkers will. Once again, SM trading raw power and health for flexibility...
@PandaMine
That is true. In T3 ASM can still be used as a generic tie-up or hit-and-run against bases though.
Last edited by KotCR; 14th Jan 09 at 2:17 PM.
Well you do have the seargents rally squad. Not as good as morale immune but does the job in most situations
Yeh, but the cooldown is fairly long for what it does, TBH. I normally find the squad broken again before it's recharged (or the Sergeant dies before I get to use it, and he takes ages to reinforce back into the squad). They just can't win the longer slugfests with the more hardcore melee units in particular, because of the losses they'll recieve, and the faster rate of morale penalities due to fatalities that that will typically incur.
The true hardcore T2 melee specialists all have vastly superior Morale.
Grey Knights, Flayed Ones and 'zerkers are totally Morale Immune, Nobz are basically Morale Immune due to Waaagh Bonuses, and CoW Banshees have 800/15/150 with only 10 Morale Penalty on death as opposed to the ASM's 500/11/50 (with Serg Bonuses) and a larger Morale Penalty on deaths of 20. The free regroup of Rally is counteracted more or less by the Morale Damaging affect of the 'shee Exarchs War Shout.
Grey Knights are SM's true T2 melee specialist (and at the bottom of the foodchain for T2 melee specialists due to their limitations), ASM are just SM's T1 melee/Jump Specialists (but, in complete contrast to the Grey Knights, are at the top of the foodchain for the T1 melee/Jump Specialists - no doubt deliberately to balance stuff out).
Last edited by KotCR; 14th Jan 09 at 8:04 PM.
They have always been used as jump specialists. I jump them out as soon as they take heavy losses and/or morale is broken and rally is not cooled/sergeant is dead. Grey Knights handle the slugfests better (though still not the best at this, but they are the best SM have to offer in T2.5 (I suppose Sacred Artifact counts as T2.5 too?)).
Regarding Fire Warriors...
Originally Posted by chelovek_veliki
heh, yeh, Sacred Artifact is T2.5. 'zerkers technically are also T2.5 but considering how cheap, easy and fast the Sacrificial Circle is to get up, it's not quite as limiting as it might be for Grey Knights.
And what about Fire Warriors? lol
I think we've already came to the conclusion that Tacs might seemigly > Fire Warriors straight-up in T2, but it's because they require a far larger investment.
But that on the grander scale of things, Fire Warriors are hardly weak for what you need for them.
As for if they're overpowered on their own merits in T2 (rather than the merits of their support units), well if anything it'd be their range (or maybe massability as people have said), seems they'll have 40 range in T2. For comparison, a Heavy Bolter has 35 range.
Ech...but it is a really difficult one to balance up, when you consider stuff like transports, because while Tau have their own very good transport units, it moves significantly slower than every other races' transport. But buffing the speed of the transport too much wouldn't be appropriate because of it's other merits like a super-cheap cost, great DPS to all targets, and Infiltration.
Last edited by KotCR; 15th Jan 09 at 7:30 AM.
In an attempt to balance the tau for my personal mod, I moved the second req and power researches up a tier, also decreased the range of the stealthsuits av weapons and nerfed the sight range of the tc.
I also increased the build time of harbinger drones with one second.
It's still not like I want. not quite sure how to proceed from this point and I need to master sob and de before making too many changes to balance anyways.
Maybe it'd be best to start with making the Tau economy a bit more expensive? Increasing the cost of Plasma Generators and the Barracks somewhat could help.
Making the Path to Enlightenment require a Kroot Shaping Centre as well would help in delaying Tau tech. And could encourage the use of Kroot-y units.
This must be what Relic did with Necrons in Soulstorm. They just listed a bunch of nerfs without actually thinking about what they mean, resulting in a huge overnerf into nigh uselessness. This is what the start of the process looks like =/Maybe it'd be best to start with making the Tau economy a bit more expensive? Increasing the cost of Plasma Generators and the Barracks somewhat could help.
Making the Path to Enlightenment require a Kroot Shaping Centre as well would help in delaying Tau tech. And could encourage the use of Kroot-y units.
First, you want to make their eco more expensive and decrease their starting pool of req (basically). And then, after their eco has taken a hit like this, you want to give them a prerequisite to teching no other race has (the building of 2 buildings to go t2) and make them spend more req on a useless building? It will not encourage the use of krooty units at all. There is nothing stopping people who want kroot shapers from building the KFC (kroot forming center) now, making it a requisite isn't going to change much.
It's true... DOW races aren't balanced at high level, but by Soulstorm, they're pretty damned balanced already... as close as DOW at any stage ever had. So, you don't need huge nerfs to balance Tau. And you don't need huge buffs to balance Necrons.
For Tau, some sort of economy nerfs and teching slowdown (for example, making Stealth Suits require research for infiltration) are probably enough (however, what genius thought that giving the core infantry of Tau heavy_high armor was a good idea???). For Necrons, rebuffing its units back to DC levels (the Warriors, etc) while leaving the SS eco nerfs in place, are probably enough.
#64
I don't think that reverting the Necron units completely back to DC levels is a good idea IMO. Maybe for some stats like just the health for NW or something similar.
The danger is going back to almost completely unstoppable levels of OP like in DC.
As for Tau, some kind of minor nerf to Stealthsuits (maybe a nerf to their jumping capability, I'm not sure about infiltration requiring a research, but if it was done I'd like to see the base damage of the SS increase slightly to compensate) and perhaps the economy, maybe increasing the cost of the Path to Enlightenment slightly and/or making the second global power research require the Vehicle Beacon perhaps.
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Give NW's their DC stats, you cant spam them as hardcore in SS so i dont see the problem there. Making SS less uber in the capping department would be nice, maybe jump distance slighty smaller?
Don't Google the question Moss!!!!!
@ CCM:
DC Necrons stats aren't what made them OP. It was:
(1) Their Necronomy in 1v1.
(2) Back in DC 1.0, the Lord's Resurrection Orb giving Necrons something like 27 infantry cap.
Which is why back in DC you always heard about Necrons not being OP in 3v3 etc.
But yeah, I wouldn't blanket-revert everything to DC level, since I don't remember what all the DC-to-SS changes were, heh.
As for Tau... maybe make the Jetpacks research more expensive, and take longer?
Atm im finding eldar vs tau a hopeless match up for me , other than that i find them preety fairly ballanced except maybe big maps where u cant harras them early.
"As for Tau... maybe make the Jetpacks research more expensive, and take longer?"
sounds good idea to me not to much of a nerf but would help.
What if... each Fire Warrior Team leader (Shas'ui) takes 1 infantry pop, LOL? >;-D
So if you dare to take 2 Shas'ui for your FW squad, it runs you up to 4 infantry pop!!
#69
That sounds a bit like trying to crack open a walnut with an Apache helicopter.
My inclination is to reduce their damage slightly and then restore it later with a research.
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