AT Guns?

[troglodytejb]

So I played for like 3 hours last night, and I couldn't get my head around the setup AT guns (Beamy Deffguns, Plasma Devastators, Brightlance platform). The range seemed pathetically short, and the damage was less than equipping my dudes with mobile AT. Am I just using these units wrong, or could they use a buff?

I understand that coming from CoH some archetypes will be very different, but if I engaged a walker at max range with a Beamy Deffgun Loota squad, the walker could just wade in and murder the entire squad. In CoH, it takes more than that to deal with a well-placed AT gun-- what am I doing wrong?

[Thinking42Man]

I observed the same. I think the damage and or range just need tuning.

[Noble]

I only tried brightlances and they seemed to have excellent range. Keep in mind that you have to be able to see the unit you are shooting at. Use an infiltrating unit like rangers or scouts to spot for your AT guns. When you're setting them up you can see the exact range and arc of fire possible for the guns.

[LTSearchEngine]

I agree that the AT gun mechanic in COH was awesome. Easy to flank, vulnerable to small arms, but hard to take on from the front due to green cover granted by the gun itself. Man-portable AT is good to have, too, and it is done well here, I think - platforms, MLs, etc.

However, the short range of this AT combined with the raw power of vehicles (and particularly chaingun type weapons, just cries out for a AT weapon which is sheltered from the front.

[DougyM]

The "AT gun" range is the longest in the game by a country mile.

you just need to have units in front of them to spot for them.

Ive had a devestator team set up outside an enemies base and be able to just pummel it all day long.

Of course though, i also find Marines with missiles are almost as good if not better... in terms of speed and damage.

Its just that you will need 2-3 marine squads to deal with a charging dread or Carnifex etc... in order to kill it before it gets to you.

[LTSearchEngine]

Knight_Yellow:

I know the range on the plasma cannon is long, but the plasma cannon is not that effective vs. vehicles. It's ok, but the super short range tac squad missile launcher does more damage.. it seems.

Also, the plasma squad is restricted to using map cover. If it has to set up in the open (which is not at all unlikely), nothing prevents a ranged vehicle from coming into range and wasting the AT.

It's the age old debate, but I don't believe that a tank should be able to efficiently counter dedicated anti-tank. In this game, vehicles counter everything very effectively except for massed anti-tank and other vehicles.

I DON'T want to see light arms hurt vehicles, but I do want to see anti-tank harder to take out without infantry or flanking.

[Noble]

In this game, vehicles counter everything very effectively except for massed anti-tank and other vehicles.

My experience is limited, having only played for the one night, but I've found this to be flat out wrong. My brightlances rip vehicles to pieces, and whenever I send a wraithlord or falcon tank into action without infantry backing it up and taking care of the enemy AT, they go down quick.

I haven't had any problems with the AT in this game.

[D-coy]

Maybe Eldar are more effective than they should be.

[Noble]

Entirely possible.

[LTSearchEngine]

My experience is limited, having only played for the one night, but I've found this to be flat out wrong. My brightlances rip vehicles to pieces, and whenever I send a wraithlord or falcon tank into action without infantry backing it up and taking care of the enemy AT, they go down quick.

How much anti-tank are you facing? An early walker seems to be devastating. Take an assault cannon dread vs. any infantry based platform. Vs. any two, really. The assault cannon will gib infantry in yellow cover or in the open, and harm those in green cover. In my (very limited) experience, the dread will win handily vs. dedicated infantry portable AT.

I mean, I don't have a mountain of experience to pull on here - clearly! - but in what I've seen if the walker goes for the AT, you're in trouble. The only effective counter I saw was either far more AT value than walker value, or another vehicle...

I'll have to pay attention to this tonight.

[steve-1945]

Iv used plasma devs and they destroy everything but only if you have 3 of them. My only gripe about at guns is the freaking missle launcher. It has the effective range of 5 feet. My men cant even use it without being turned into gibs

[Noble]

Due to that particular scenario LTSearchEngine I started buying a wraithlord equipped with a brightlance early on instead of getting the brightlance plat first. You're right that it can be difficultalmost impossible to kill a dread before he gets into killing range with a single plat.

After that wraithlord is out though, I'll grab a couple of brightlance plats and position them so that they cover each other somewhat. At this point, if a walker tries to engage a plat in melee, the other one will handle the walker before much damage can be done.

Eldar AT can definitely be tricky, but it's extremely similar to the CoH AT micro.

[FooF]

I'm with Steve on this one. SM AT is lacking. Plasma Devs fire too slowly and are too inaccurate while ML's on Tacs are just as bad. Commanders with power weapons or AT are there (FC w/power fist can immobilize vehicles and Techmarine has the grenades to do the same) but they can't go toe-to-toe with a walker unless they have a Walker's price in upgrades.

I haven't played the other races enough to comment on their plight but Armor does not feel as counterable as it is in CoH.

[Thinking42Man]

I'd say that handheld AT (Missile Launchers, Rokkits, etc.) is very sufficient vs armor, perhaps even too much so, a looted tank died to a single volley in one game I played. It's the stationary, set up AT that seems lacking.

[LTSearchEngine]

After that wraithlord is out though, I'll grab a couple of brightlance plats and position them so that they cover each other somewhat. At this point, if a walker tries to engage a plat in melee, the other one will handle the walker before much damage can be done.

But now we're getting back to the problem - you have a wraithlord with part of its capability dedicated to AT, and two platforms with no use but AT. This is what I meant by massed AT. You've dedicated a large portion of your army to anti-tank and at the same time made it not very mobile. You will now have trouble with the capping war.

Anyway, this is another facet of the problem I was describing anyway: your only reasonable response to your enemy rushing to a walker is to rush to a walker. If there isn't another viable way (which is yet to be found), then this is far too limiting and linear.

For example: a second tac squad (assuming I bought 1 in T1) and two missile launchers costs much more manpower than a dreadnought and only slightly less power (though the same req and less power if you don't go to T2). This puts a huge amount of value into two fragile 3 man squads and degrades their AI value, who will probably only beat the dreadnought half of the time.

[D-coy]

That's why you go for walkers resulting in varied gameplay, since everyone is utilizing different units!... oh wait.

[AntiCommie]

What is the SM/Nid AT gun? I seem to run into problems with these armies against walkers, unless I have walkers of my own.

[jdiack]

For SM I've found that the best anti armour tends to be the Assault troops. They do pretty well with melee against the various different types of vehicles.

[Neosyllogism]

Nid's eat walkers up in my experience.
3 Tier 2 AV options.
Warriors with Venom Cannon (haven't used it much, nto sure how effective, but warrior are certainyl faster than walkers)
Warriors with AV talons (my usual route, rippers start combat then attack with a melee swarm led by AV talon warriors)
Zoanthrope (... actually, I need to play with it more, but the Zoanthrope seems relatively week for 400 req, T2, weak health, and low speed. ...It's range isn't that great)

The tyranid heroes all have AV upgrades as well, so that can also help.

[Thinking42Man]

What is the SM/Nid AT gun? I seem to run into problems with these armies against walkers, unless I have walkers of my own.

SM has Plasma Devastator squad at T2, and Missile Launchers for TSMs which are better. Nids have the T2 artillery unit which has a slow ability for use on vehicles, and upgraded Warriors with either of the T2 upgrades.

[Saberdark]

I personally find SM AT to be quite lacking. Sure if its a ranged vehicle it can (usually) kill it, but walkers just rush in and crush Plasma Devs. Tacs with missiles can work, but are generally ineffective at doing anything else, and are more expensive. We shouldn't have to build a walker of our own to counter.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Plasma Devastators are artillery, imo, not AT. They flush units out of cover from long range. AT capability is a bonus. Missile Launchers are definitely the AT for Space Marines. Much better at kiting, better hp etc.

Never really had any problems taking on vehicles so long as I had any AT on the field. The real trouble is being hit by a halftrack before you have any AT out.

[troglodytejb]

Plasma Devastators are artillery, imo, not AT. They flush units out of cover from long range. AT capability is a bonus.

That may be my problem. I'm playing them like CoH AT guns, which may not be correct.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Yeah. I don't think Space Marines have AT guns as such. They are more into Panzershreks

[LTSearchEngine]

Tac MLs are toast against a walker with a ranged upgrade, like the chaingun. They take maybe 6-8 hits to take it down, but the chaingun can gib them and the walker can force them out of cover.

Maybe it won't be a problem, but a walker of my own was the only effective solution.

Plus, tacs with MLs are now 600MP +30ish power with significantly reduced AI and short range AT.

It feels too limiting.

[Thinking42Man]

I think Eldar have it worst as far as AT. Their only dedicated AT is worthless for anything else, infantry based, flankable, and needs to be set up. Howling banshees with the AT upgrade are pretty killer, though. Maybe that makes up for it.

[Holyhell]

Plasma Devs are for digging infantry out of cover not for killing vehicles

I agree that AT units possibly need to be a bit cheaper so they are an effective counter to walkers, currently dread, wraithlords etc walk in take maybe one or two shots (they take a lot of dmg) then engage in HtH and wipe the floor with your AT unit.
This effectivly means you typically need 2 at units to effectivly combat 1 walker.
I have found with Eldar a Brightlance plat with warpspiders is nasty just warp the spiders in haywire nade and the walker just sits there while the plat rapes it.
Again tho this means you need 2 units to effectivly counter 1 unit.

[Steel*Faith]

I've also noticed it's important to use commander buffs to those squads when engaging those vehicles and walkers. If you use the damage buffs on those anti-tank squads, they'll destroy them quickly. It's also about overwhelming them and getting to their flanks as well.

Although imo I think some infantry units are too expansive compared to some vehicles.

[LTSearchEngine]

Again tho this means you need 2 units to effectivly counter 1 unit.

That is fine, as long as it doesn't require more req in dedicated AT than the cost of the walker. Warp spiders are only a support unit wen it comes to AT, and are much better at AI. This scenario is good, and actually makes me wonder if every race has a good ability to support AT tucked away like this.

[Saberdark]

Well if Tacticals are supposed to be Space Marine AT, they cost way too much for the job. Walkers just stomp all over everything you throw at them. Even Predators!

[Teugeus]

Missiles really hurt walkers, you don't want your dread to be caught up in the open facing down the barrel of a tact squad missile launcher, it's the same as in COH if you throw your tank at an AT gun without infantry support.

[Thoragoros]

If your looking for CoH style AT weapons, forget it. Gone are the days of the reliable AT Gun, D-Cannons or whatever, simply don't cut it. And if your playing as the Orks, don't bother with the deff dread, cause the SM dread will tear him apart in seconds flat, same goes for the wraithguard. This makes sense from balance persepctive, as far as the SM Dread, but this game is in serious need of some 40th century firepower.

[D-coy]

You get Tankbustas that is.

[steve-1945]

Build 3 squads of plasmadevs. Tank destroyers.

[Supernaut]

Speaking of Plasma Devs, I inadvertantly scored a rear armor hit on a Warsomething, the Ork APC, and it took it over 50% damage from that one hit.

That impressed me.

I haven't actually attacked a real tank with PDevs yet, the Ork player didn't reach T3 quick enough or was using his resources on something else other than Looted Pred, anyone have any idea how effective PDevs are vs Tanks?

[Mokino]

I think it's more the fact that wraiths and both types of dreadnaughts are primarly anti-infantry units.

When equipped with the anti-inf guns, you really have to use cover to counter them with the AT inf.