Star Wars: Imperial R&D

[evillejedi]

cough

[DarthFelth]

vety nice dude, now all i wanna see is my ships able to collect debris and actualy dock...

[ThorXENO]

OK for the size prob that is cause in the options i forget which one. but it changes the size of the smaller ships so they are easer to see.

[NonameXK5]

very nice indeed.

[JeffHCross]

I believe the size issues I discussed are unrelated to that option. I am quite sure I have that option turned off. Plus that option, I believe, only releates to the visual size of ships on the other end of the map.

The size issue I was talking about related to two things:
It related to the distance between built ships that used the same rally point. The distance appears to be SIGNIFICANTLY larger than is necessary.
It also related to the size the game engine believed the Factory Ship was (the area where it would allow me to select the ship) compared to the actual size of the ship. Most of the other ships seemed to be correctly sized, but the Factory Ship seemed incorrect. But I might have been wrong, it is entirely possible.


EDIT: Are there any map makers that would be willing to make Star Wars maps? I'm just thinking that if SSDs are expected to be normally used, their sheer size is going to overwhelm the current maps.

[Evenflow]

Evillejedi PLEASE release that SSD model! You don't need to make it a new release or anything, but I MUST have that model!!!!


EDIT: That's actually a great point about making some Star Wars maps, I was thinking the same exact thing, as the SSD normally takes up a whole quadrant by itself, but that will create some NEW problems:

How do you find your enemy in such a huge map? It already takes forever sending out probes blindly trying to find the enemy base, this will drag it on some more.

Which reminds me Evillejedi..... why not make a radar like in the original HW? Remember it would show you where the enemy is and people were ALWAYS gunning for it all the time, it made the game somewhat exciting IMO.

[DarthFelth]

i think it made the game to easy and removed some great tactics

[JeffHCross]

When you say "too easy," are you meaning Empire vs any of the HW2 races? 'Cause the Empire is greatly unbalanced toward the HW2 races. It is balanced for the Empire and the upcoming Alliance, not for play against HW2 races.

[evillejedi]

think he means radar in this case. the radar would be really hard to script IMO

the dock formations are the problem in the case of "ship size" also the selection limit on the MS is set too high and has been corrected.

the balance between the SW mod and stock HW2 breaks down around the ISD level. anything smaller is pretty close however the main issue is the lack of sufficient EMP shileding on HW2 units and the gap between destroyers and BC's.

one of the ideas I had for the SSD is dividing it into 5 sections bow, forward midships, midships, aft midships and stern. each section would house a critcal function of the ship (aft engines, aft midships bridge) to destroy the ship you would have to kill the center module, but each other module destroyed would knock out all the guns in that area and deal significant damage to the total ship. since it needs to be split up because of collision issues tell me what you guys think, other large ships will be done this way if it is a good idea.

[Evenflow]

That sounds really good evillejedi. I imagine the SSD would go something like this:

- Engines: Shoot them out and it does'nt move.

- Bridge: Take it out and maybe the forward guns stop firing. Or, if possible, make the aiming of it's guns much worse. This second scenario would be awseome and realistic if you can get it to work.

- Forward, mid, aft sections of the ship, take them out and ALL guns on that section stop working, period.

If you think the radar idea is good, you can just give it a really wide area of coverage, so each radar would clear out a huge section of the shroud around it and reveal that portion of the map. A player would need 3 or so around the perimiter of his base to reveal pretty much the entire map. Because I do agree we need MUCH bigger maps to accomodate ships like SSD and such, and they will propably start popping up when this MOD is finished, and it would get kind of tedious to make a hundred probes and send them out at random to find your opponent, only to have him run away with the flagship to another area that you can't see and you have to repeat the process over again.....

But still, this is all just extras, so it isn't essential or anything. C'mon man, release that SSD model!! PLEASE!!

[rgreat]

I hope it will be a good idea evillejedi.
Keep it up.

[NonameXK5]

Good idea on SSD sections but i have a question will the SSD stay the same size or get down sized?

[BrettMan]

Should be scaled down a bit IMO. Same with the other super caps. I think sajuuk should be the benchmark on size. Anything more than that just looks way too....uh....Whats the word i'm looking for?

[rgreat]

"Unmanageable".

[spacemoose]

I wouldn't want them to be downsized, I think it'd hurt the "Star Wars"ness of the mod. I love locking the camera onto a scout squadron and sending them on an Executor fly-by, its just too sweet.

Their extreme strengths and weaknesses opens up the possibilities of new tactics. It might be difficult to figure out how is the best way to implement them, but I think the potential payoff is worth it.

I really like the modularization idea. I'd actually think a ship that size would be nearly impossible to blow up, it be more likely to slowly lose its abilities, and this idea simulates that.

[spacemoose]

Well, I'd call them unweildily. They are essentially a huge broadsword; that once swung at the enemy, is very difficult to redirect. That inflexibility is just a characteristic of theirs, and while it can be frustrating I suppose, it isn't a game-ender.

What I consider unmanageable is the scaffolding. That thing is so big and a pain in the ass when organizing your "base." I'd much rather have superships hyperspaced in through some "admiralty requisition module" on a much smaller universal shipyard,

[rgreat]

Scaffolding is a impotant object imho.
You can destroy it to harm opponet super ship build progress.
We just need bigger maps.
i'd say 3-5 times wider then current 6th player ones.

I dont mind having super ships so clumsy.
Thas their natural drawback.

Just make sure that they have enough range to actually attack enemy around them.

Also long range "Heavy Rockets" on Golan Battle Station can do the work on defending large areas.

[Evenflow]

I think the size of the ships is perfect the way it is. SSDs are a little over 5 times the length of a regular Imperial Star Destroyer, and to a Star Wars nerd like myself this authenticity is important.

Besides, the Super Star Destroyer is a command ship. It's SUPPOSED to be big and umanuevarable. It's supposed to stay back, provide a well defended base for whatever VIP it has, and direct the smaller Destroyers and such into battle. Think of it as a moving command base in space. Let's just be thankfull evillejedi is'nt making an Eclipse Star Destroyer .

On a similiar note: I'd hold off on making really large maps for now. Try this out: set the game settings the same for everything, pick same enemy on same difficulty , everything should be the same EXCEPT map. There's this really small map called something "Training Ground", you'll see it. Play in that for a while, maybe build around 10 Star Destroyers or so, then switch with same settings to a really large map like Hyperspace wars (I think it's called, it's huge), again build the same exact structures and ships (so 10 ISDs again). You'll notice a HUGE difference in framerate. On the smaller map the game stayed as smooth as silk, while on the big map it bogged down even on my 2.5ghz Radeon 9700 Pro PC. So I don't think it's possible to have any maps bigger than the biggest ones included in the game!

[rgreat]

Solutions:
1. Upgrade.
2. Patch.


It better to have large maps then not to have it.
If it laggy on your machine just dont run it.

[JeffHCross]

Originally posted by evillejedi
the balance between the SW mod and stock HW2 breaks down around the ISD level. anything smaller is pretty close however the main issue is the lack of sufficient EMP shileding on HW2 units and the gap between destroyers and BC's.

I can't remember ... oh yeah, I think it's the Lorinar Strike Cruiser. I built one of those and wiped out half of the enemy fleet. ONE!

[NonameXK5]

I think he is making an Eclispe and if he does were gonna need R2D2.

[Evenflow]

Heh. It would be funny if he DID make an Eclipse, take up half the map!!

Which kind of reminds me, Evillejedi (and anyone familiar with making maps for the game), what is conceivably the largest sized map the game can support? I see no reason why we can't have an Eclipse, other than the fact it would take up half of the largest maps out there. Is there a limit to map size (in relation to the largest maps that exist now), and does it affect performance or is it just my imagination?

Just WHAT exactly different about that small map (I think it's called Telos Training Grounds) that make it run so much better than anything else bigger or even the same size? I don't get it. Is it the shading? Far as I know it's the only map of the bunch that does'nt seem to change the color of the Imperial Ships to a orange/bronze color, so maybe because it does'nt have that type of lightning?

[Sky-Marshall]

The Eclipse need same place how the Executor :P ,the Eclipse is 100 meters smaller!

[rgreat]

SSD is much thinner.

Btw, i have a great news.
Maybe you know already, but these are new for me.

Great space strategy game "Imperium Galactica 3: Genesis" also known as "Galaxy Andromeda" found a new publisher.
New name also (again!). "Nexus".
I thought it was dead, after CDV canceled it...Grr.

Press release:
http://www.hdinteractive.nl/content....t&contentid=26

2 new pics.

http://www.barans.spb.ru/files/rgreat/nexus.jpg
http://www.barans.spb.ru/files/rgreat/nexus2.jpg

Old Demo, for these who did not seen it (65mb):
http://www.3dgamers.com/dl/games/gal...-demo.exe.html
Check it out, it highly worth it.
Much better/different from Imperium Galactica 1/2.
Great graphics, special effects, music, sounds, quite deep space battles, AND GREAT GAMEPLAY.

Masterpiece.
And that demo is from far May 2002!
I'm thinking about progress they can make in these 2 years...

Hm hm...thinking about SW mod in there already.

[Evenflow]

Err.... actually the Eclipse is about twice the size of the Super Star Destroyer, in both the comic itself and in the Dark Empire RPG book it's listed as 10 kilometers long, the Super is about 5 kilometers long.....

[nickersonm]

SSD is 11.6 km (10.6?). Go look at the SWTC at theforce.net.

- nickersonm

[Kinjiss]

Has anybody heard or own the book "Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels" it's got almost all the ships and vehicles from the SW universe in it. It doesnt have anything from the prequels, but I thought it could be an essential resource. Sorry if this has already been mentioned. There is also the essential guide to weapons and personal devices or something rather.

--Kinjiss

[JeffHCross]

I own almost all of the Essential Guides. I haven't picked up the new versions because they're largely not worth buying ... not enough advantages over the older versions.

I think other than this current discussion about the size of the SSD/Eclipse SD ... we don't need the essential guides. Evilejedi seems to have ships covered.

In general, if a reference WAS needed ... the Star Wars Encyclopedia would probably be better, just because of the sheer amount of ships contained within it. But like I said, it seems like they're pretty covered.

EDIT: Just checked out the SWTC on theforce.net ...

Eclipse-class command ship.
LENGTH: 17.5 km [16.0 km?]
NOTE: The Eclipse is slightly shorter than the Executor. The primary evidence for the Executor is in the films, which show a length of about eleven miles. The primary evidence for the Eclipse is the text of the Dark Empire comic, which states a length of about ten miles. Some secondary and derivative books have wrongly stated that the Eclipse is twice the length of Executor. Such statements were based on a false understanding of the Executor's length. The primary evidence still stands: although the Eclipse is much fatter and wider, and therefore has a greater total tonnage, it is definitely shorter.

Executor-class command ship.
LENGTH: 17.6 km
Note: Some serious mistruths about the Executor design have been widely promulgated in other references. They include distortions of the ship's proportions; undercounting of the number of thrusters (nine as opposed to thirteen); and a statement of length (8km) which is much less than the consistent length of eleven or twelve miles shown at the Battles of Hoth and Endor.

[Evenflow]

What the....


Ok, while I'm a regular on TFN all the time... it's still a site made by fans, meaning that they aren't really "official" perse. In every single "licensed" book, manual, and even some of the novels (Wraith Squadron books), the Super is time and again referred to as 8 KM long, this, to me atleast, is much more credible than what some Star Wars geeks (Don't get offended, I'm the biggest SW nerd myself) has to say on thier website. If you were to get me something OFFICIAL, as in endorsed, licensed, or affiliated with Lucasfilms or it's subsidaries telling me otherwise, then I'll concede the point.

As for the Eclipse.... it's says its "ten miles from stern to stern", so that translates into about 16 KM long, so, OFFICIALY, it's twice the size of the SSD.
:3dcool:

[evillejedi]

heh the official site says 12800 :-p
however look at these two pictures and tell me that it is '8' times longer than an ISD :-p (I might add that these are pretty damn official since they are movie screen caps)










in both cases the ISD in front of the SSD could be repeated between 10-13 times on the SSD, since it is in front its projection MUST be larger than 1600m so from these OFFICIAL pictures it is at least 16000 m long
such is the reason I ignore the 'real' numbers




about the mod, factory ship dock paths work now! no more lining up of collectors :-p

I halved and in some cases 1/4thed the weapon damage for capital ships, with the same hull values this should make for more epic battles. fighters will do better now and frigates and the like should be more important.

[Kinjiss]

One more thing, I'm not trying to bash you or anything, but from the essential guide book thingy, the inderdictor is a lot different looking, from the one in game. Just pointing that out. Also, is the Imperial Star Destroyer different from the Imperator Star Destroyer, cus I couldn;t find it in the book, sorry if this has been mentioned.

--Kinjiss

[evillejedi]

hmm both the essential guides looks nearly exactly like the interdictor in game except maybe the bridge is too big, but it is also really close to how the game versions look. I didn't do the model, it was supplied by David Anderberg. So, I don't know what differences you see in it, post some pictures to illustrate what you mean.

Imperator=Imperial, whatever it just depends on what your sources are.

[Evenflow]

Yeah, I know how the SSD looks WAAAAAY bigger than five ISDs in the movies... still, it could just be the perspective. Every single official source states it's 8 KMs long, and since each ISD is 1.6KM long, I tend to go with that.

So you bit the bullet and lowered the cap ships weapon damage huh? Hmmmm, guess I should reserve judgment until the Rebel ships are released.

EDIT: Interdictors, VSD's, and the Allegiance all look great to me, I like how you made the VSD's a darker colour, makes them stand out from other Destroyers, IMO.

[Kinjiss]

Try this, I dunno if it will work, since I just googled it.

http://frankg.dgne.com/swsv/sfs/interdictor.jpg

and if not, go to www.google.ca and then go to the search images button then type,

Star Wars: Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels Interdictor

and its the only picture.

--Kinjiss

[BlackSabbath]

The Interdictor, is'nt quite like that, the best examples would be from XWA, or the Rogue Squadron Comics, and good view on the SSD's, i've heard many diffrent opionions on the size, but for the argument, lucasarts models (if they were to scale the same as the star destroyers would have been nearer to the 16 figure rather than the 8

[BlackSabbath]

This is from Starwars.com
SSD

Homeworld:
Fondor

Height:
12,800 meters

Manufacturer:
Kuat Drive Yards

Type:
Cruiser

Affiliation:
Empire

as for the interdictor, there are only two pics one is identical to the one previously given and the other is here: http://www.starwars.com/databank/tec.../img/eu_sm.jpg

are they actually going to stop ships from hyperspaceing in the mod, if so then it states that all the last generation of super star destroyers carried them, (Soveriegn and Eclipse)

[Frank]

in regards to the SSD size if you look at the following picture you will notice ive labelled the closest star destroyer as original. we can use this as a scale for the super star destroyer because its closest to us, so if anything whatever we measure the SSD as will be a smaller number compared to its true size.

the measurement comes to 12 ISD's...

[spacemoose]

Heck guys, there are bound to be inconsistencies in the size. In the movies they superimposed images of the models and I'm pretty sure they weren't able to keep the relative enlargement of the Executor the same in every shot (its not like the model was actually 8, 12, or 16 times bigger than the ISD model, actually I think I remember hearing it was smaller), shoot, probably 10 different guys worked on those shots. They were probably given some qualitative description of its size like "make it dwarf the ISDs."

Whatever evil feels is good is OK with me, well, as long as its substantially bigger than the ISDs and the cruisers and such

Edit:

I was thinking about modularizing the SSDs, and realized another reason this is a good idea. One problem with the SSDs right now is that they are throwing out the same amount of firepower right up until they die, so that even if you made firepower/armor/cost ratio the same as 12 ISDs or something, the SSD would always win handily because it would constantly throw out 12 x ISD firepower while the firepower of the ISD fleet would steadily decrease as each ship was destroyed.

I kinda think that the SSDs will require a good amount of experimentation and attention to get right, and I think evil is right to leave all that effort until closer to the end of the development. Fighters, frigates and such are more pressing at the moment.

Getting these big ol' suckers right would really give a kickass element to gameplay though, and I'm looking forward to when that gets worked out.

[evillejedi]

heh actually it's extremely consistant in the movies, and that one picture of the interdictor is from the rear, the rest of the images look really close. (schematic views, illustration in essential guide II)

note about perspective, if something is behind another object the projection of the forward object onto the rear object is always larger, try the math, if you can prove its not then you just discovered some new physics.

[nickersonm]

Oops, I meant 17.6km. Bad memory .

"Official" sources are all in disagreement. The SWTC analyze the movie and get the length from there, so I trust their figures more than any games or guides. The games and guides aren't canon, anyhow.

- nickersonm

[rgreat]

Originally posted by Frank
in regards to the SSD size if you look at the following picture you will notice ive labelled the closest star destroyer as original. we can use this as a scale for the super star destroyer because its closest to us, so if anything whatever we measure the SSD as will be a smaller number compared to its true size.

the measurement comes to 12 ISD's...

That ISD can be much farther from camera then SSD.
For example afaik, bridge size of SSD and ISD is similar, but look at this picture...

[spacemoose]

How can the ISD be farther away from the camera when its between the SSD and the camera?

[rgreat]

Hm, my bad...
I noted only top ISD. Never scroll this picture to the right.

[JeffHCross]

Evenflow,
While I agree with you that TFN is a site made by fans, the Technical Commentaries are usually fairly reliable. I think since the SSD has so many different sizes and different sources, that's why the TCs are wrong on this one.

For an interesting analysis for all of this: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ssd.html#history

[Evenflow]

I see your point in a way, the SSD does seem to be a hell of a lot bigger than five ISDs. Guess we'll never be 100% sure.

Either way, I don't think evillejedi can (or should) make the SSD in the MOD any bigger!! I think it's the perfect size as it is. Dwarfs anything else, yet still able to fit onscreen when zoomed out halfway or more.

Speaking of the MOD, it's been a while since I've heard anything about it, anything new?

[evillejedi]

nope, verilog coding has me pinned down until friday and the g/f and I have plans for the weekend, next week my schedule is a lot more open (only three exams :-p ) so, expect to see actual progress then (I've spent about 30 minutes a day working on it this week)

[JeffHCross]

Oh yeah, if the SSD was any bigger ... I remember when I read the original spec and it was something like 80 m/s. I thought it would take forever for the ship to move. Then I discovered that since it was so huge it only took a few moments to move to my opponent's RUs.

To be completely honest ... I was just throwing my two cents in about the TCs and SSD size and whatnot because I love Star Wars and I like validity. In actuality, I agree with the people that said we don't really need complete reality with the sizes. In fact, I would argue that the SSDs are too big on the stock maps.

[spacemoose]

Yeah, they don't work on the normal maps very well. The big mod specific maps are OK though.

I find I use them as scouts right now though, since their sensor range is so big I just hyper around the map until I find the AI.

Edit-

Is it possible to limit tech/ships to particular maps?

If so, it would be cool to limit small maps to ISD and smaller, medium maps to cruiser and only the largest maps would get SSD.

On the topic of maps, could we get some more 3-D maps in this mod? I'm not a fan of the 2-D+ nature of all the HW2 maps.

[evillejedi]

with the new subsystemed SSD the only problem should be hyperjumping it as far as weird movment and the like go, for some reason the engine uses the enitre model including subsystems in its 'safe jump coordinates' (once I figure out how to make the subsystems fire their weapons... works on the golans but not SSD)

on the topic of maps, we need to get the background tool from relic...
If anyone would like to make maps specifically for the mod PM me, If the background editor was available I'd have a bunch of custom backgrounds available.


Since I haven't been able to do any modelling or importing recently I laid all the ground work to have the alliance in, AI entries, build entries, weapon effects, weapon sounds and also all of the 'shared ships like the corvette and neb-b have been made to use the loadsharedmodel() command. So, the alliance will be a playable side in the next release, but they won't have any of their unique units (mon cals, xwings) and therefore will be really weak.

[Falleen9]

The link for the mod is down can u guys get it back up i would really like to get the most recent version.