SM vs 'nids = epic fail?

[alisbin]

hey mates,
been toying with the patch, particularly SM (FC), but as soon as i get up against nids i'm screwed. tried Tacs with flamers for crowd control, no luck. tried scout shotties, fine for tier 1 fail tier 2. then the carni's came out and for the life of me i can't kill the bastards. i even got termies (regular) out but their power fists didn't even scratch the carni before it kill them all. couldn't keep enough map control vs the huge masses of gaunts and rippers. ASM seem to melt and devs don't even get a chance to set up.
so heres my request, HOW THE HELL DO YOU BEAT NIDS WITH SM!!!???

[Mekztra]

Suppression is pretty key - get one heavy bolter squad to deal with the swarm, then tacticals with flamers and scouts with shotguns will do the actual killing. Get your commander in meleeing them while your other squads do the shootery, and get a dreadnought as soon as possible. Upgraded or not, the dreadnought is excellent against Tyranids - the bonuses to nearby units when it kills something in close combat come up VERY frequently against gaunts and such, and the assault cannon barrage wipes the floor with the swarm too. A dreadnought with Dark Age of Technology should be able to kill a Carnifex, as long as it doesn't have the assault cannon upgrade (which reduces its melee effectiveness).

AOE attacks of any kind are great against Tyranids, so Plasma Devastators combined with Heavy Bolter Devastators do great execution (suppress, then plasma-fire into the near-immobile swarm). Use buildings if you can, early on, because Tyranids can't deal with them too easily at the start of the game. I've had a lone heavy bolter (1 man in the squad) hold off an entire Tyranid swarm just by having a building as cover.

[Chris]

Heavy bolter tends to get neutralised by rippers very early especially since now everyone and their mother is using the hive tyrant, who also cannot be suppressed. So that's 2 units in the early game that will just shit all over your heavy bolter. The one saving grace of the bolter would be to garrison it, because tyranids don't have many counters for this. Of course they don't really need to either because a garrisoned heavy bolter can only cover a small part of the map. If you garrison at point A, the tyranids just take control of point B and C. Also: spore mines. Even without the tyrant, rippers are effectively un-killable and will capture points/decap points with impunity. The tyranids will always have at least 1 more squad than you, often 2 more squads. This is understandable because besides scouts, your squads are between 345-550 req each. The big problem is that the tyranids swarm all over the map and their economy goes through the roof and soon you're faced with overwhelming numbers. Very fluffy and cinematic, not so much fun to play against.

I'm kind of stumped as to what to do versus tyranids at this point. It's mainly an issue of map control as I said; Cheap units + superior economy = BAD JUJU when you have expensive units + poor economy.

[SteinerNein]

Tacs /w Flamer + Scout /w Shotguns

Tier 2 -> Plasma Cannon devastators (for warriors) + Razorback

Tier 3 -> AT.

[Boomstar]

SM player strategy vs nids = bend over and lube up.

[SteinerNein]

Still doesn't explain why the top 10 has usually 3-4 SM ; they obviously have a solution we don't. It might be harder for them but they still have it =P

Note that there is only one nid there >_<

Might as well try stuff!

[Ixal]

Still doesn't explain why the top 10 has usually 3-4 SM ; they obviously have a solution we don't. It might be harder for them but they still have it =P

Note that there is only one nid there >_<

Might as well try stuff!

Was the ranking reset with the patch?
If not then this doesn't mean anything.

[alisbin]

i'm not that great, and i'm not claiming balance problems (well... somewhat but its part my fault too). but yeah, main problem is definately map control, if i really concentrate my forces i can beat the swarm (with losses) but by the time i've gotten my units even partially recovered again they've got all their forces back plus a few extras and they've got even more of the map. and if i send them out to cap/recap/decap without healing they get slaughtered and i lose even worse...
on a more specific point, are tac flamers really any good? i could'nt even drive off a hormie squad with them, by the time their in range they've already started to leap into CC.

[Dilopho]

For me its also very hard to win against a good tyranid player. Even if I use shotgun and flamer in most games I loose map control and the mass of units overuns me.
Would be nice if someone could post a good replay that shows how to beat tyranids.

[Schlamiel]

IMO this MU is broken, the nerf to ranged weapons and suppression made the melee orientated and cheap tyranid army way to strong. It takes a lot more skill to win as the SM player than it does as the tyranid player. Hence imbalanced.

Tyranids need some nerfs either raise cost, or lower health, especially on warriors. And what is wrong with the Fex? I have tried all kinds of unit combinations and nothing seems to work.
I have no idea how to just et a fighting chance in this MU

[4Servant]

just right click reapers on scouts and get free map control => make 3 warriors and make love to your girlfriend => profit two in one.

HB get tied by reapers get from the flank (they are fast so np)

Warriors outshoot tacs with venom or green gun, warriors beat asm with synapse. Mix hive tyrant for extra hp. Razerback gets mauled by venom cannon so yeh =/.
Dreadies also get mauled by venom cannon and in melee by warriors. And when it comes t3 nids get a carnifex vs a PREDATOR TANK for some uber fail battle.

Basicly I tried aditional builds vs nids and none of them worked -.-.
Flamers is nice vs gaunts but you need plasma in t2 to stand even 1% chance vs warriors.

[Zallis]

Warriors outshoot tacs with venom or green gun

Green gun? You mean the barbed strangler? Because both the venom cannon and the BS shoot green stuff.

One of the biggest problems I find is trying to find a good mix between taking out the little swarmy, cannon-fodder units, and taking on warriors. As 4Servant said, flamers are nice vs gaunts (and maybe rippers. I haven't tried it yet), but the flamers can't do enough to warriors.

If you manage to get to t2 for plasma on tac squads, you just can't kill the little units fast enough. So you can sorta deal with the warriors with plasma on tacs, but then the swarmy units just rape you.

[streak]

"Green gun? You mean the barbed strangler? Because both the venom cannon and the BS shoot green stuff."

obviously... the warriors only have 2 shooty upgrades.

On another note, I just had a game where I walked my HT into enemy base, took out one turret and pretty much owned any retreating units he had. lol.

[Inst]

Plasma devs are obviously key here, although I don't know whether SM has a chance, even with plasdevs gibbing their gaunt armies.

[Oakwarrior]

SM player strategy vs nids = bend over and lube up

This

Nids are quite broken indeed

[Schlamiel]

SM player strategy vs nids = bend over and lube up


This

Nids are quite broken indeed

So what we have here is a new race, just as broken as necrons where in DC 1.0? they better fix this soon. It gets old pretty fast getting your behind handed to you by nids.

And as always it seems like more and more are playing them by now, since they get easy wins.

If anyone figures out a good strategy let us know. The best results so far have been to go agressively after the nids power, but you still lose, but you may be able to delay i for a few more minutes.

[SteinerNein]

Mass plasma and shotguns! np!

[4Servant]

And die to 2 carnixes and venom gun, good plan!

[Schlamiel]

Mass plasma and shotguns! np!

That sure as hell aint gonna cut it, you will be wasting more req than the nid player, and still be outsquaded.

Furthermore rippers are so tough, that you cant stop them from capping, while his venom cannins kill your army of. Its damage is huge it melts infantry, vehicles and buildings.

If you have a replay of said strategy working against a fairly good Nid player, you should post it ASAP.

[SteinerNein]

You're gonna' die anyways! Might as well annoy the crap out of your opponent while you can!

[Maktaka]

So what we have here is a new race, just as broken as necrons where in DC 1.0?

Oh, it's not that bad. More along the lines of Reaver Jetbike spam in SS 1.0: you can beat it, but you'll have to work damn hard.

[Akagi_Ryu]

Wait a sec... have I missed something?

Before the patch ASM ware a royal pain in the butt for early 'nid swarms. Has it changed THAT much?

[WhiteDeVile]

4Servant talks total bullshit, seriously.
Warriors ? They get pwned with T2 ASM or T1 ASM with help of any hero or tacs, also T2 tacs with plasma guns pwn Warriors with VC, since only one of them actually shoots, for a aproximately 100 or more hp damage each shot (with quite a big cooldown between) while all of the tacs shoot for decent dmg.

The real problem is barbed strangler (yes the GREEN GUN you b00n - insta suppression) and ranged/melee synapse benefits to terma/horma gaunts.
Also reapers get pwned by flamers and all AOE weapons.
And carnifex can be dealt with, by both some of the AV and AI weapons.

Concetrate your forces and focus fire on warriors instead of gaunts, and just avoid that incredibely slow Hive Tyrant (for me Ravener is the real deal, he's far more annoying).
After such a quick skirmish run to your req/vp points, since after retreating a lost battle, nid player will surely spread his forces and go for your points.

[Steakmancer]

If you let Tyranids make 2 Carnifexes in 1v1 I think you're playing aginst Tyranids the wrong way.

Against the early-mid game swarm try to round them all up and use AoE weapons en masse. FF the Attack Synapse Warriors as early as possible.

[alisbin]

akagi:
yeah it has, before nids just had numbers and econ (IE map control), now they've got numbers, toughness, econ and damage.
SM still kick ass on a 1-1 basis and can hold their own on a 2-1 basis but with uber econ the nids can bring a 4-1 or worse ratio. plus their units build ungodly fast.

[streak]

SM can hold their own by raping the tyranids very early-game. I'm talkin strong FC + tacs push to destroy their power and as many early forces as possible. Just go for lots of tacs, and in T2 get them a sarge and plasmas. FC maybe gets teleportation to always stick on the VC tyrant, otherwise he will demolish you.

But this basically relies on you out-playing your opponent in the early-game. If he's as good as you, good luck.

[General McPoop]

SM player strategy vs nids = bend over and lube up.

And it is the same thing with orks vs nids, stickbombers will hold them off through t1 at least, but then it all goes downhill from there.

I would recommend as sm abusing the plasma cannon tacs (not the upgrade, the unit) asap kept WAY in the back and ready to retreat at a moments notice of trouble, use them to desintigrate and send masses of nids all over the place, but be careful.

[Chris]

Concetrate your forces and focus fire on warriors instead of gaunts, and just avoid that incredibely slow Hive Tyrant (for me Ravener is the real deal, he's far more annoying).
After such a quick skirmish run to your req/vp points, since after retreating a lost battle, nid player will surely spread his forces and go for your points.

Concentrate my fire? You mean like, all 4 of my squads, which includes my hero btw? Maybe I'm just too noob but I'm not sure how I'm expected to focus fire on warriors when I have synapse'd guants and rippers and possibly a hero swarming me in melee. Also: Rippers should never die now, ever. Unless the tyranid player falls asleep.

Wait a sec... have I missed something?

Before the patch ASM ware a royal pain in the butt for early 'nid swarms. Has it changed THAT much?

The basic problem IMO is that the new resource changes favour the tyranids 10X more than SM. Basically SM just can't afford enough squads to go around decapping tyranid req/power points and if you try to get into a guerilla war, the tyranids will decap 2 of your points for every 1 of theirs. SM troops are basically designed to fight at 2:1 odds and that's fine, they can do that. Unfortunately the new resource changes put the SM into a 3:1 odds fight and that is bad news.

[SteinerNein]

Chris, I thought you learned the power of Plasma a few days ago! Just plasma and tac spam! Even if you lose you'll piss the crap out of your opponent =P

Also the same could be said about Orkz due to the new resource changes but hey, let me reiterate my previous point - there still seems to be SM in the top 10 slots which means they're either maintaining or switching . =p I have a feeling pitmaster is at least staying SM .

[Buguba]

It's worth noting to everyone that the venom cannon upgrades got the same buff as Space Marine plasma... for whatever reason. They absolutely annihilate everything.

Warriors ? They get pwned with T2 ASM or T1 ASM with help of any hero or tacs, also T2 tacs with plasma guns pwn Warriors with VC, since only one of them actually shoots, for a aproximately 100 or more hp damage each shot (with quite a big cooldown between) while all of the tacs shoot for decent dmg.

The real problem is barbed strangler (yes the GREEN GUN you b00n - insta suppression) and ranged/melee synapse benefits to terma/horma gaunts.
Also reapers get pwned by flamers and all AOE weapons.
And carnifex can be dealt with, by both some of the AV and AI weapons.

Concetrate your forces and focus fire on warriors instead of gaunts, and just avoid that incredibely slow Hive Tyrant (for me Ravener is the real deal, he's far more annoying).
After such a quick skirmish run to your req/vp points, since after retreating a lost battle, nid player will surely spread his forces and go for your points.

ASM lose to Warriors with adrenal glands (yes, even if ASMs jump on the warriors), meaning that tacs get absolutely raped too. The Hive Tyrant also eats the FC for breakfast. Likewise, a plasma marine squad will beat a warrior venom cannon squad in a 1v1 (barely!), but factor in anything so much as a ripper and the warriors insta win.

The problem is that Nids just outsquad Space Marines. The Space Marines saving grace WOULD be the Heavy Bolter, but a barbed strangler or a Hive Tyrant + rippers effectively destroys any hopes of the HB being effective. Once the HB is down, it's only a matter of the Nids getting into inevitable CC with the Marines (which grants an auto-win to Nids).

ASMs also aren't as effective cuz of the new buff to Warriors with adrenal glands. That's assuming it's even a smart idea to go CC with a race that's built completely on CC units. :/

[SteinerNein]

No, the saving grace for Space Marines are plasma cannons!

But yes, it is an uphill battle and chances are you're going to lose anyways.

[Chris]

Chris, I thought you learned the power of Plasma a few days ago!

Well, yes. But it doesn't really help when my opponent has 50% more req income, 3/4 of the power nodes and possibly all 3 VPs.

[WhiteDeVile]

Guys take note that all that stuff that Ive posted above works for Eldar :P
(yeah I know, I overlooked thread name, sorry for misleading you)

Pre-patch I had to lock rippers in combat with my shees then plasma nade 60-70% of them, focus fire of my guardians/ws on nid warriors, proceed to melee them with shees and warlock, and then optionaly suppress all those horma/terma with rangers/shuri plat, if I had WL it was even easier.

In T1 guants died to almost anything, hero, T1 shees, guardians (nade "under your own ass" drop ftw :P)

Thats what I meant earlier post, I cant recall why I started to type about Eldar strats, sorry for that once again :P


Now on topic stuff :
for SM I'd rather suggest to go FC, tacs, HB devs, suppress on main points like near a VP and a req, flame their asses, thats for T1. Wait a lil' bit longer for double tac if your are facing a Hive Tyrant, cause HB devs will be practically useless.

Scouts, one with shotguns, if you can afford it, make 2 squads, cap with both of them, try to avoid units stronger than gaunts, cat 'n mouse around those points.

Search where the "bigger" nid force is, since a typical nid player moves his forces like:
warriors + gaunts + hero as the first "main attack" group, and some lone rippers or gaunts to cap stuff, and take map control.
Sometimes rippers go with the main force of course.
The only problem with that is that Nid player can manage to quickly bring those loners to help his main force, while your SM propably wont make it on time.
Aaaand... I seriously dont know what to do about it :P Space Marines are just soooo slow.

Anyway:

ASM + Tacs with flamers beats the shit out of
Warriors + horma/terma, just jump on top of those warriors, apparently they die pretty fast, and take note that gaunts get stunned if a synapse creature dies nearby, so IF you manage to kill those warriors, you'll propably win the whole fight.
Ignore the rippers they cant do shit just lockin your ranged troops and thats all about it since your melee troops can ignore them and proceed to melee whichever target you want, while being attacked by rippers, sooo
RMB on those damn Warriors :P!

Also rippers die quite fast to scout nades/flamers, any vehicle weaponry, AoE damage abilities.

[Chris]

Seriously, watch my latest replay here, aptly titled "tyranid bullshit".

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthre...27#post3366827

I throw everything I have at this guy and it still isn't enough. Tac flamers to slaughter gaunts, plasma and scout snipers to kill warriors, thunder hammer to cause massive disruption and kill the tyrant, plasma cannon for shameless abuse... Why isn't it enough? Because SM just can't compete against a tyranid army pushing 300+ req income, especially once the brood nest = free guant reinforcements. 300 req income and free reinforcements? GG no RE.

The highlight of the game for me was when my Predator tank got kill in about 5 seconds by that fucking tyrant venom cannon. Utterly ridiculous. I probably could have won this game but any mistake I made was instantly and hugely punishing. I left a tac squad in combat too long, insta-gibbed by a zoanthrope. Bit too slow to micro my predator, insta-killed by tyrant. Whereas the tyranids literally get pushed back again and again and again and they still overrun me.

[WhiteDeVile]

Oh god indeed, AV damage of those VC's is way over, not only Adrenal Glands warriors can literally MINCE other race's walkers, they can also effectively take them down from range.

It kind of sucks that against any other race you can simply engage your walker in melee with enemy infantry units without fear, while against nids, that walker will propably drop below half of it's hp while trying to engage them in close combat, and then he'll die in a matter of seconds.

Same goes for other vehicles of course, especially those weak ones like trukks and razorbacks.

Great melee AV AND ranged AV ? Thats kind of TOO versatile.
Warriors are currently almost what prepatch shees used to be in case of anti vehicle capabilities, with a weaker brightlance equivalent attached :P

Going to watch your replay now mate, will post more later.

[YellowJello]

To be fair, warriors haven't changed at all apart from the adrenal damage, all of the other costs were boosted.

Warriors aren't OP, the HT VC is and the new req system.

[WhiteDeVile]

The fact that they werent changed, doesnt mean that they werent too strong prepatch.

I never mentioned that nid warriors are OP, they die pretty quickly to most ranged and melee, and suck balls without the help of other units or without any T2 upgrades.
Their role is clearly supportive, they are definetively not a "single unit powerhouses".

In my book, its a bit more complex since their "opness" comes mainly from their versitality.

Also Venom Cannons of all sorts (Warrior, Hive Tyrant, Carnifex) seem a bit too strong, considering its RoF, and dmg, its somewhat similar to a weaker brightlance that doesnt require a setup time
(like that one mounted on a falcon, but falcons CANT melee, and are vulnerable to AV weapons, while warriors are not)

(Anyway Chris, I've posted some stuff in your replay thread, hope it'll help you with that sm vs nid matchup - which indeed looks troublesome).

[SteinerNein]

Chris,

I hate to say this but you were outplayed severely in the Tyranid BS rec. =/

There were a lot of small mistakes made that needed to be rectified; not harassing the right nodes, not destroying power early on, upgrading scouts with unnecessary equipment, bad placement of FC + Tacs, not getting enough tacs early on, getting a razorback despite knowing that it's paper thin vs tyranids etc.

[Chris]

If by "severely" you mean "he capped more points than you because he could simply afford more squads" then I couldn't agree more. You'd think a 10:1 kill ratio would make some kind of dent in the tyranid economy or map control -_-.

[WhiteDeVile]

Actually up to 60-70% of that match I was pretty much sure Chris is gonna win, he won almost every encounter with nid's main force, just didnt benefit from those victories.

The main problem Chris, was that you didnt cut his economy at all, nid player had most of the map, most of the time, and thus was able to afford more squads.
Yes I know that its the exact opposite of how the space marines work, they are quality over quantity, but you did had enough forces to recap most of the map, dunno why you didnt spread your forces for even a while, after you've won a fight with his main group.

Thats pretty much all about it, and I wouldnt call it "outplayed" at all.
Next match, just use the time when your enemy recovers, to cap most of the map

[varmcola]

Maybe remove adrenal glands ability to damage vehicles? That way removing some versatility from the warriors. Or just nerf the insane VC damage output, as said a hundred times

[LordVujovic]

Chris played almost perfect, only mistake he made was not camping north position and taking 2 north VP , abandoning economy , so he could win by a slim chance. He played 10x better, and still lost, kinda depresing.

Newly introduced acquisition changes, while not intentionaly, totally nerfed SM against other races, while they still can fight on equal ground on t1,and early t2, they are going to get overruned sooner or later, by allowing other races to profit from cheaper units and more accessible node capturing. More to this is that scouts, as t1 starting units, without upgrades, are weaker then other races counterparts.

[Shinova]

The insane VC damage is supposedly a bug, so just fix that. Nids need VCs for ranged AV of some kind. Other than those they have adrenal glands, zoanthropes, carnifex.... and that's it I think.

[brokengamegg]

SM have it easy vs tyranids unlike eldar/orks.

focus fire is extremely powerful.

as with other ASM, devas..

[Schlamiel]

SM have it easy vs tyranids unlike eldar/orks.

focus fire is extremely powerful.

as with other ASM, devas..

Easy? Are you joking? Can we see a replay of you beating a good Nid player with ease.

Concentrate my fire? You mean like, all 4 of my squads, which includes my hero btw? Maybe I'm just too noob but I'm not sure how I'm expected to focus fire on warriors when I have synapse'd guants and rippers and possibly a hero swarming me in melee. Also: Rippers should never die now, ever. Unless the tyranid player falls asleep.

QFT.

I believe everyone is having a tough time against Nids, SM vs Nids is not easy, on the contrary.

[SteinerNein]

You guys aren't buying enough Plasma! Come on! Get to it.

[Latias418]

Why bother with specifics? vs nids is hard is plenty enough. I started playing nids since patch, have not lost a game yet short of when I CTD. Mediocre challenge when I face people 3-4x my highest level, eat lunch while playing otherwise.

one thing I really enjoy about nids is it stays fun for me even when dominating. I normally get extremely bored by stomping the opponent, which is why you'd never ever ever ever catch me compstomping in an rts or noob bashing (you should have seen me on dow1, I only played host so I could kick anyone who even looked nooby), and yet, nids is still somehow fun and enjoyable even when crushing people. Maybe it's the joy of obliterating entire squads at a time with various venom cannons, fex bioplas, sporemines, or maybe it's the constant levelup! for my Hive tyrant that gives me the joy.

[Troubleshooter]

one thing I really enjoy about nids is it stays fun for me even when dominating.

Sometimes its like that... you just have so much fun seeing your toys smash other peoples toys that the fun isn't in the winning as much as its in the glee of the carnage.

Just remember that the people you are playing against don't apreciate the specticle as much as you do. I have to wait 10 minutes to get into a game, get lucky if the map finishes loading without getting dropped, and then become a tool for your amusement. When I only have time enough for 2 or 3 games a day, getting mashed by broken MU's isn't productive - the Beta isn't for people to run up win streaks with abuse, its for providing input to the Devs so that they can get the game right for release day.

Try to keep that in mind people.

[SteinerNein]

Trouble,

This is a stress test, no way is this truly quality testing. In a matter of fact, I think they more or less just ignore whatever is written and move along with their internal team. However, there is a quantity approach that weeds out bugs. That's it. =P

And sometimes glaringly obvious things they miss and need the public to suffer for like the Kommando satchel.

That being said, you obviously aren't building enough plasma cannons Troubleshooter. They're the solution to everything including the Middle East and also Nids by coincidence.

[Latias418]

That being said, you obviously aren't building enough plasma cannons Troubleshooter. They're the solution to everything including the Middle East and also Nids by coincidence.

I lol'd.

@trouble
I do not feel any guilt at all about ruining random people I've never met and will never see again's fun. Personally, I couldn't really care less what said random person is thinking. Jerkish, but then, I'm a jerk.