Is the .30 cal bugged?

[Captain Trek]

Now, everyone knows that the American .30 calibur machine gun just isn't as effective as its Wermacht counterpart, the mg 42, particularly in its ability to supess enemy squads... Whereas the mg 42 can suppress squads almost instantly, the .30 will often fail to one the first, second or even third burst...

Now, I assumed that the .30 just had less supression than the 42 by design, but then I have a look on CoH Stats and I see that at medium range (11-19 for the .30 and 12-21 for the 42), both weapons should theoretically have identical supression, specifically a supression of 0.015... Not only that, but long range (21-40 for the .30, 23-44 for the 42), the .30 should, apparently, actually have better supression than the 42... The .30 retains a supression of 0.015 at long range, while the 42s drops to 0.0125... At short range, however, the 42 theoretically outclasses the .30 (with the 42s staying at 0.015 and the .30s dropping to 0.012)...

In short, according to CoH Stats:

Long range supression: .30 > mg 42
Medium range supression: .30 = mg 42
Short range supression: .30 < mg 42

Why is it, then, that the .30s supression in practise is so vastly inferior to the mg 42s? Could the .30 be bugged? Or is it a function of other elements like how many shots the .30 fires in a burst or something like that?

[Stikmann969]

Most times that i use MGs the enemy is at medium to short range and so ive never noticed if there was any difference between the two. I wouldnt say thats its inferior, if anything superior because of the APC rounds ability

[Captain Trek]

Most times that i use MGs the enemy is at medium to short range and so ive never noticed if there was any difference between the two. I wouldnt say thats its inferior, if anything superior because of the APC rounds ability

Hmm... That's odd... But you're right, the armour piercing rounds are awesome against halftracks and armoured cars...

[Stikmann969]

Depends on how you use it really. The .30 cal isnt a really aggresive weapon anyway and it should be accompanied by rifleman to support it, and if they have the BAR become far more efficient against most axis infantry

[kommodore]

BAR+WSC+RAX to counter axis infantry? Do you know how much fuel that is? Your gonna get tank rushed. A single mg42 can suppress an army by itself. It would be nice if the .30cal filled the roll better, and it has got several buffs to this affect in the beta thank god.

[Kosake]

30. Buffed in the beta??? Now that are grave news... The .30 should by no means be anywhere as effective as the MG-42. It had a lower rate of fire, so the 42 should suppress better. And in game terms, it is allready better due to the ap-ammo. I once knocked out two M8s with a captured .30 in less than 40 seconds, all by itself. The 42 is just not able to cause anything compareable.

[Frosty]

Why is it, then, that the .30s supression in practise is so vastly inferior to the mg 42s? Could the .30 be bugged? Or is it a function of other elements like how many shots the .30 fires in a burst or something like that?

First of all, MG42s have an RoF twice as high as the .30 cal. This means that they will most of the time reach the supression threshold value in the first burst, whereas .30 cals build up supression slowly but steadily over multiple bursts, because units constantly recover supression each second.

Secondly, and also more importantly, German units for some reason have vastly better supression recovery modifiers for the different cover types. Out in the open and in negative cover, .30 cals supress German infantry just fine, but once they get any kind of cover, their recory modifiers prevent supression for a long time.

Examples:

Supression recovery per second in the open:
Riflemen: 0.008*0.75 = 0.006
Grenadiers: 0.008*0.75 = 0.006

Supression recovery per second in light cover:
Riflemen: 0.008*2.5 = 0.02
Grenadiers: 0.008*5.0 = 0.04

Supression recovery per second in heavy cover:
Riflemen: 0.008*5 = 0.04
Grenadiers: 0.008*10 = 0.08

Cut these modifiers to rifleman level, and .30 cals and quads will be able tp actually supress German infantry. But I just don't see it happening any time soon.

@Kosake:
Oh, your captured .30 cal destroyed 2 Greyhounds in less than 40 seconds? And your opponent did nothing to save his Greyhounds, like simply driving out of range? This is like saying sticky bombs are overpowered against PE armoured cars ... They do great damage, but a competent player will always keep his ACs way out of range.

An MG that can't supress has very low tactical value. People always point out the .30 cals' superior damage output, which actually isn't really that superior, especially when you take incremental accuracy into account.

[Kosake]

@ Frosty: There were numerous PzGrens and other inf from my Ally hoping around, so the M8 were buisy fighting them and probably did not notice that the MG in the building behind them was not an MG42. The first Greyhound caught a whole volley in his back armor, he could not retreat anymore. It was not killed, but after the first salvo it was south of 30 % HP and without an engine. Still, fact is: the .30 can kill vehicles, the 42 can NOT.

Actually, I think the high supression value may more often than not be a hindrance. Pinned squads are immediately retreated, while not pinned squads keep fightig for some time, taking real casualties. So I allways try to get my hands on .30 cals.

[CroatNotBorat]

Still, fact is: the .30 can kill vehicles, the 42 can NOT.

MG42: 260 manpower
.30 cal: 420 manpower, 15 fuel, 35 ammo for AP rounds

Only horrin00bs lose vehicles to .30 cals. AP rounds are by far the most useless ability in the game.

[Nanaki]

Except if you dont pin a squad, all it has to do is run up and grenade you. Which is precisely why the MG42 is so powerful. It can outright deny infantry to an area and the only way your going to be able to get back to it is either by mortars, snipers, or Heroic Charge/Fireup.

[Captain Trek]

MG42: 260 manpower
.30 cal: 420 manpower, 15 fuel, 35 ammo for AP rounds

Err... The Wermacht Quaters isn't free, you know...

[Nanaki]

The difference is that the Americans have literally two 'Wehrmacht Quarters' buildings, one of which produces Rifles and Jeeps, and the other produces Mortars, HMGs, and Snipers.

[La Head]

Quote:MG42: 260 manpower
.30 cal: 420 manpower, 15 fuel, 35 ammo for AP rounds



Err... The Wermacht Quaters isn't free, you know...

Yes it is, Hitler gives one to every wehr player at the beginning of the game i recall. [/sarcasm]

[Kosake]

The US can field mortars at T1 wich wehr can not. Actually, the combination of Snipers, Mortars and HMGs wich stay usefull thourghout the game (contrary to MG-42, wich are pretty soon useles due to ranger / AB fireup) is better than what you have as wehr Player at T1.
I play PE, but I can guarantee that any lost .30 will come to cost you dearly. The ability to penetrate light Vehicles is more than powerfull. Due to the high fire rate and long time it takes to turn a vehicle and drive it to safety, a crippled engine is guaranteed. And witch a cripled motor, all your M8 and Stuarts are food for my AT-HT, Schrecks and whatever I can muster at that moment. MG 42 is only practical against regular rifles and Tommies. Comandos cloak out, rangers and airborne simply storm it without even taking losses. .30 cal can be used up against anything short of MBTs.

[Melonplant]

Get a .50 cal on the top of your greyhound if you want to suppress the germans. The .30 cal's role is made obselete very quickly because your opponent will either tank rush, leaving you wide open with a useless wsc, or go for infantry vet, which makes suppression much less useful.

Axis squads are also much smaller (which is why their recovery is generally higher. I think it functions on a man to man basis) so while there are 3 men in the nearby suppression radius for a grenadier squad, there are 5 for a rifle squad.

[CroatNotBorat]

The US can field mortars at T1 wich wehr can not.

No, they can't. If they attempt to do that, the game will be immediately over. As in, over after no more than 5 minutes of playing.

Please, just stop.

[Frosty]

Axis squads are also much smaller (which is why their recovery is generally higher. I think it functions on a man to man basis) so while there are 3 men in the nearby suppression radius for a grenadier squad, there are 5 for a rifle squad.

No, it's pretty straightforwarded. Supression is applied to squads as a whole and doesn't have to do with the number of men in the squad. Otherwise, the whole problem with that one guy always jumping out of cover and getting the whole squad supressed wouldn't exist. The nearby supression only applies to squads that are not being targeted by the MG, but who still have men inside the nearby supression radius.

Anyway, we can see rather clearly that a couple of players here have no clue what they are talking about even though it's painstakingly obvious that 90% of the time when a WSC is actually built in a 1v1, it's solely for snipers. .30 cals and mortars simply don't cut it unless used in a 2v2 WSC start strategy.

I have explained in my post above why the .30 cal doesn't even come close to the supression efficiency of the MG42 and that it isn't a bug.

[Kosake]

I never doubted, that the .30 lacks supression - I just said, that it is allready much more usefull due to the AP burst, than an MG-42 wich can not supress anything later on because of charge and fire up. So it does not need a buff at all. It's just working different.

In 1v1, a combination of .30 cals, Snipers and Engineers are completely sufficient to start with. you can easily tech on till motorpool if you do it right, since your MGs can counter Halftracks (far more efficiently than those stupid sticky socks). The snipers take good care of enemy infantry and your pioneers cap all they can while being covered by MGs. It is bad enough against regular wehr, and its devastating against PE, since the squads may take two sniper shots at most, the Halftracks can not assault the .30s and engineers can fight of kettens on their own. So do not tell me, that WSC start in 1v1 is obsolete.

[Melonplant]

In 1v1, a combination of .30 cals, Snipers and Engineers are completely sufficient to start with.

That is simply not true. If you're going to comment on game strategy you should at least know this very basic fact. Any player worth a penny can easily counter a weapon support center build with minimal effort.

[Kosake]

This is kind of drifting away from the main theme, so just to stay more or less on topic:
The .30 cal offers you light anti-armor capabilities without techig. Garnisoned in a building, it works just as good as an MG-42, since Infantry must assault though open spots nearly everywhere. Yes, it takes a burst more to pin a Squad, but it gives you more chances to actually inflict casualties before the squad is retreated. And it is devastating against all light vehicles. A single burst will reduce you HP at least to 50 %, more likely to some 30-40 % + engine damage, guaranteeing that a second burst will kill the target. What can an MG-42 do, besides pinning riflemen? Pretty much nothing, since AB and rangers just ignore it, anything that has more armor than a jeeb does not take damage at all and engineers are supressed by pretty much anything anyways, starting with a single Volkssquad with MP40s.

@ Melonplant: So??? Then tell me, how to counter WCS with minimal effort as PE. Just tell me... PM if you want.

[FOZ]

The "420 mp 15 fuel" comes from that it's assumed you Barracks started like a sane person.

By the way, AP rounds auto-target infantry whether the gun is in the open or garrisoned. So, supported vehicle = 100% useless AP rounds.

[MrTittles]

I agree with Croat, actually; AP rounds IS the most useless ability in the game- especially against any player worth his salt... The AP ability simply dosen't do enough damage to ever be worth the 35 munitions- especially because it's a time-based ability. Any player that gets hit with some AP .30 cal will simply retreat his light vehicle, wait 30 seconds, and come back again to inevitably destroy the poor .30.

Thinking about this gave me an idea (my ideas aren't liked very much, but I'm going to go ahead and say it anyway). What if the WSC had a universal upgrade for the .30 cal that would allow it to fire AP rounds for free?

For instance; at the WSC, you can research "AP rounds Supply" or something like that for roughly 200 mp and 40 fuel (or some figure around there). This would allow the .30 cals to fire AP munitions for free.

When a player clicks on the 'fire AP rounds' button, the ability might temporarily change the targeting priority for the .30 cal, so that it prefers to target light vehicles over infantry for the duration of the ability...

I don't think this would be overpowered, and it could help extend the usefulness of .30 cals later on into the game, and make the WSC a more viable path to take...

Any thoughts?

[nik0s79]

That is a good idea which will make wsc a usefull choice against PE (as it stands now you are forced to go rax->mp every time)

This tech ability should probably cost more fuel to delay the m8, though the wsc's fuel cost might be sufficient as it is. (the PE player would probably choose to go MT-HT so it balances out)

Either way this is never going to happen of course...but a good thought nonetheless

[slim]

Then tell me, how to counter WCS with minimal effort as PE. Just tell me... PM if you want.

MT-HT > WSC or so i have always been told.

@ MrTittles not a bad idea

[CroatNotBorat]

MT-HT > WSC or so i have always been told.

Simple flanking is more than good enough. G43s will make short work of anything in buildings, infantry halftracks will annihilate snipers and MGs in the open, and PGs have cheap-ass incendiary grenades which guarantee that a garrisoned .30 has to run away.

[TsaosChicken]

@ Kosake: I agree under certain circumstances WSC can work, but it is limited. Engis can't cap for shit under fire. Anybody looks in their direction and they are pinned so capping is difficult if not under direct cover from a .30 cal.

As for the .30 cal being bugged? I doubt it. It works as intended and I do think it is useful even if it's rang is a bit lacking. Placed properly, it will have good cover and firing range to compliment some inf and a flame engi. It isn't designed to do it's job alone and therefore needs more support than an MG42. The MG42 is simply an anti-inf weapon and it can be useful late game depending on strats/maps/etc. It is VERY useful early on in denying Allied map sections. Even if you don't agree that late game it is useful, you have to admit that it's sheer firepower out of the gate can give the Axis a greatearly game advantage when they need it most.

I think the main problem with both weapons is the priority of it's targeting. If there was a way to use the weapon against the most threatening target then it would be better. Unfortunately for the .30 cal and the AP rounds, you can't tell a garrisoned .30 to shoot at the Puma and same for the MG42.

If a garrisoned unit could be told to target a particular unit it would solve many problems and wouldn't need a WSC "AP upgrade" button.

[Sgt. Dan]

Kosake:
There's something called... Flanking (ohmygod)
Also, like already said: Mortar Halftrack.
As for snipers: Get your kettenkrad near the front lines, it spots them perfectly.

[Kosake]

Oh no, pals. MHT costs freaking 40 fuel. And if it gets strafed by just one single salvo of AP, its down to 10-20 %. AP rounds do incredible damage. They are raping every PE vehicle short of PzIV apart. While I agree, that IHT may damage snipers, two snipers FORCE your infantry to retreat or you lose the squad.
And sniper shots into vehicles are bugged. You allways kill two grens when shooting into a HT. So no, WSC is the best thing you can do against a PE. and flanking: well, every building has its bad spots. and by the way: two MGs are cheaper than two PzGren squads. And you can decide, wich target to takkle when the mg is shooting, even when it is garnisoned. So dont tell me, that a bunch of grens draws fire from the MG while the HT goes unattended. there is some thing called micro, you know????
I could target the M8s from the building. there were a lot of other targets, british squads for instance. But i clicked the building, rightclicked the M8 and it went kabooom.

[newBAUS]

In reply to original post, .30cal is not bugged. Its just that axis troops are much more harder to suppress. Try capturing an MG42 and use it on pios. They are hardy to suppress than freakin riflemen.

[YurdleTheTurtle]

Holy off-topic derailment!

On topic: What newBAUS said. Evidence of this is at Frosty's post at #2. This pretty much answers the question: The .30 Cal is not bugged.

[Tiresias]

Ok this is going off topic, but then again not sure the topic has that much discussion. May I suggest a strategy section thread on uses if people want to discuss how to use it?

Going to lock this thread unless it returns to topic

[FOZ]

Machine guns cannot be ordered to attack a specific target. A .30 cal, garrisoned or not, WILL NOT shoot at the halftrack if there are infantry next to it. AP rounds are a joke, and the .30 cal has such pitiful range that it can't even fulfill its role as support because it basically needs to be next to the riflemen to even hit the enemy units.

I would say that the .30 cal is bugged, but not because of its weak suppression or shitty range, but because nobody bothered to change it to target vehicles instead of infantry when AP rounds are activated.

[Captain Trek]

mortars simply don't cut it unless used in a 2v2 WSC start strategy.

The only time I find myself using American mortars is when I get them in a supply drop... I find they just aren't useful enough to be worth much more than the 81 Mp it costs me to have riflemen crew a dropped mortar (3 x 27 MP to reinforce the rifles afterwards)...

[Ordovician]

Simple flanking is more than good enough. G43s will make short work of anything in buildings, infantry halftracks will annihilate snipers and MGs in the open, and PGs have cheap-ass incendiary grenades which guarantee that a garrisoned .30 has to run away.

If the PE player is sinking all his fuel into incendiary nades and HTs, then a quick M8 will be his downfall.

[sighman]

If the PE player is sinking all his fuel into incendiary nades and HTs, then a quick M8 will be his downfall.

You won't be getting a quick m8 because WSC start means little to no map control buddy.

[Melonplant]

No point in arguing with people that think a WSC start works. They'll learn one day, but they will never believe anything somebody else says about it. I used to think WSC worked, too.

While we're on the topic of 30 cal bugs, I do think that the AP rounds not auto targeting vehicles or armor makes it the worst ability in the game. It's just a waste of 35 munitions, and in current patch, a pgren can run in with an armored car and thump thump thump the 30 cal to death.

[Avenger6789]

Simple solution: When AP rounds is activated, the .30cal prioritizes vehicles over infantry. Everything is fixed.

Oh and by the way, how does the upgunned BC APround work?

[Penitent]

It works pretty well because it can move. Two of them can kill a Puma in seconds, which has surprised several Wehr players who have built a fast Puma against me.

[GeoffS]

Going to lock this thread unless it returns to topic

Since Tiresias posted that, there have been 7 more posts in this thread about the .30 cal MG.

1 was about American mortars
2 were about the American M8
1 was about American WSC starts
2 were about upgunned Bren Carriers
and 1, the first one, was about possible bugs with the .30 cal.

If you want to know why the thread is now locked, the answer is there.