Scout Shotguns

[ThatGuyThere]

Well right now I think that scout shotguns are fairly OP. I play SM myself mostly but I still can't bring myself to using massed scouts with shotguns because I just feel it isn't a fair tactic. Granted I've only encountered it a few times and I think that a counter would probably just be heavy suppression weapons. That still doesn't mean a scout squad with shotguns should destroy an assault marine squad and that may just be I've been getting unlucky but infiltration also hurts peoples ability to suppress the scouts before they get into firing range. What are other peoples thoughts on scout shotguns? I honestly think that simply removing their infiltrate ability for shotguns alone would go a long way to making them a more balanced unit since that would open them up for suppression.

[ViS]

Just melee them and do it RIGHT. There's not much to it.

[ThatGuyThere]

I understand there can be counters to them, but I still do not think they should have the ability to take on certain heavier units and win simply due to knockback. I just played a match where I cam up on a force commander capping a point and my scouts knockbacked him until he simply had to retreat. Now I know that if the other play had support for his hero this would not have been the case but it's still rather silly.

[ViS]

What's so silly about expensive units wtfpwning a lone hero with no support?

[streak]

shotgun scouts aren't expensive units

[BL4zD]

Unless I've missed it, the only SM unit that doesn't have a balance thread about it are the deepstrike tac marines.

That information indicates to me there is no clear consensus on the space marine race and that people probably don't use deepstriking tac marines often.

[Latias418]

if 250/20 is expensive, then what the hell is 550/25?

[BL4zD]

answer what makes 550/25 expensive...it's the 25, right?
now look at the scout...20 power << expensive

[Octopus Rex]

Well, no not exactly. Sometimes it's the 550 that you're waiting for and not the power.

I'm not making any judgement on the shotguns as such, but I think much of this kind of thread has to do with the fact that knock-down in general can be so damn frustrating if you fall victim to it. Often you realise you've been caught out, but mashing the X key doesn't save you because you can't get away. Getting caught out to powerful units makes more sense, is quicker (you don't have to watch as you slowly die), and you can run away from it.

Again, not saying shotguns are OP, or that even knock-downs are. Just commenting.

[Latias418]

I wasn't aware 550 req was inexpensive, despite it being a minute and a half wait even with +300 req income...

I see your point, but it's the combination of 550/25 that makes ASM so damn expensive, not just one or the other. Which is why scout shotguns aren't really expensive, they only have one of those costs.

[BL4zD]

Who said that 550 req was inexpensive?
250/20 is expensive. 550/25 is more expensive.
The fact that most upgrades cost around 20-25 power should indicate to you that power is meant to be more limiting than req in the game. I don't feel like belaboring the point any further.
Does that answer your question?

If you're still not satisfied, replace ViS' reply with asking what the problem is with forcing a lone hero to retreat with an inexpensive unit. The answer doesn't change...don't roam around a battlefield solo.

[Latias418]

so a solo scout squad should beat a solo hero because why? if he's roaming around with a scout shotgun decapping solo, why do you have to send 2 squads to stop him?

[BL4zD]

He wasn't beat, he just couldn't cap the point under fire and had to retreat. Isn't that desirable mechanics?
If the situation was reversed, and the scouts were trying to cap the point, the commander would have forced them to retreat.

[Latias418]

scouts stop capping -> fire at hero -> hero retreats

[BL4zD]

That's not how it happens. The hero just has to close in to melee range. The whole point of the argument isn't that scouts are overpowered, it's that the infiltrate ability overpowers enemies because they can stealth up and knockback their opponents.

Now you are changing the parameters of the discussion. You can't just make shit up in order to prove a point. If you don't believe me, go run at a scout squad trying to cap a point and see how effective they are at forcing a retreat.

[Latias418]

How am I making shit up? The argument was that infiltrated scout shotguns wtf pwn any t1 unit one on one, or at the very least for cost effectiveness. You're the one factoring in the scouts as capping and not infiltrated; if you send one something to stop my scout from doing that I'm going to stop capping and infiltrate while my scouts are knocking you down.

[ViS]

250/20 IS expensive for the window of effectiveness of shottie Scouts. After that, most heroes have speed boosts/teleportation/nuke abilities and most squads are just too tough for them to face down solo.

[Saias]

Agreed with ViS, taking scout shotguns either slows down your tier2 tech or slows down Assault Marines. Scout shotguns get gradually worse the higher up in the tiers you get and with more units on the field scouts become more liable to getting insta gibbed.

[Latias418]

I wasn't taking into account the effectiveness of them, so I didn't realize you were talking about cost effectiveness as opposed to just plain out cost. In which case I'm agreeing, somewhat at least. I don't think they're imba for the reasons you mentioned plus slowing down tech, but I do think it's a bit ridiculous how in t1 they can solo a hero.

[ViS]

Once again, why is it ridiculous, considering the invesment that has gone into them?

[Latias418]

because it feels wrong to have a hero unit totalled 1v1 by a 250/20 unit .-.

but I definitely see your point, they can force your commander to retreat but at a great cost of 20 power early game...

[BL4zD]

Not only that, but they can only force a retreat if they successfully ambush the commander. If he can close to melee range they have to retreat. If they are capping a point, they take extra damage and can't be simultaneously stealthed while using the shotgun.

They can stealth and then ambush a lone commander capping a point. But they can't cap a point, be stealthed, and use the shotgun to ambush a commander simultaneously unless the other player is just on autopilot.

[Latias418]

I wouldn't even really know anyways, most of my experience with scout shotguns has been prepatch, where a commander getting into melee with them was impossible because of 25% knockback

[glenn3e]

I take it you hadn't notice that scout shotguns have already been nerfed in this patch? Have you played it?

[Dunstwolke]

What I think is more of an issue is that Scouts own the 300hp rangers that are Eldar's detector unit.

[CeeJay]

Scout squads need a Sergeant in order to solo a hero. Knockback only has a 15% chance of occuring, which means that heroes, in most cases, will close in and destory them well before the hero runs out of health. The thing that keeps the hero back is the Sergeant; when a Scout squad gains a Sergeant, and has Combat Shotguns, it can eventually supress most heroes.

So, the actual cost of a Scout squad that can solo a hero is 310/45. I'd say that that is rather expensive (factoring in that Tier 2 is required) to be able to solo a hero.

On a semi-related note: God, I wish people wouldn't hide the truth when claiming things are OP, it's such an effort having to actually dig out the facts and set their own story straight. You should have to accompany any "OP" posts with three different replays all higlighting the problem in three completely different scenarios, or something along those lines...

[LandShark]

if you are massing scouts and shotguns, you have no anti vehicle.

35 req to reinforce isnt that cheap either though.

[Chris]

What I think is more of an issue is that Scouts own the 300hp rangers that are Eldar's detector unit.

Rangers will kill 1 scout per shot. Rangers are the bane of scouts.

[D-coy]

If you have trouble with units knocking down your commander and really want to prevent them from doing so, invest in a wargear that grants an energy shield (Iron Halo or similar). It functions like the Zoanthropes force field, making the unit affected by it completely immune to knockdown.

[Buguba]

Scouts don't do nearly the knockback they used to. If you directly attack them with any melee unit, they don't stand a chance. You'll get knocked down a few times, but you'll eventually close the distance and the scouts will be toast. Commanders are best because shotties barely scratch them.

I usually keep a scout + shotties with me the whole game. They're great at sneaking up on Devs + platforms (especially the annoying plasma devs), and they butcher gaunts and orks if you keep your scouts off to the side. Shotties are best when you don't draw attention to them. Once someone focuses on your scouts though, you're toast.

[ThatGuyThere]

I don't have too much of a problem myself when facing scouts with shotguns because mostly I have support for my hero and all that jazz, as for the 15% knockback chance I think that perhaps nothing but Murphy's law makes it seem more like 75% Again the main focus I think is that infiltrate Tier 1 is harder to effectively counter than it should be. Simply making the scouts get infiltrate at tier 2 or if they get a sergeant would make them a much more balanced unit in my opinion. As for massing scouts and shotguns it can be rather effective if you've bought the wrong units early on. Lets say your SM vs SM you get a Heavy bolter and then tac marines, if the enemy has say three squads of scouts with shotguns they can infiltrate up to your Heavy Bolter and tie down your two squads rather effectively even if you have a melee commander.

Also I do know there are plenty of counters to scouts with shotguns, but it still doesn't mean they should be so powerful Tier 1 IF used right.

[streak]

well the 15% is per shot per scout (I think), so a group of 4 scouts getting 3 salvos on FC before he makes contact, has about 86% chance of getting a KD before he makes contact, then moving away and firing again etc.

And what's this about a window of effectiveness for scouts? They're SM's (only?) detectors, they infiltrate and disrupt setup teams, they repair, they nade buildings... this is stuff you need throughout the game, man. Given their uses and effectiveness, I don't see how they're expensive.

[Buguba]

Also I do know there are plenty of counters to scouts with shotguns, but it still doesn't mean they should be so powerful Tier 1 IF used right.

On the other hand though, scouts + shotties are one of the SM's key ways of countering early heavy weapons and entrentched forces. If you take that away, the SM only have the option of going for ASMs or T2 to counter heavy weapons. Flanking isn't always an option for by-passing heavy weapons, so it's nice to have a way of countering emplacements without needing to invest in ASMs or rush to a razorback.

Massed scouts w/ shotguns can be problematic, but that's expensive in T1. Each shotgun upgrade costs 20 power, and power is hard to come by in the early game. The equivilant of 3 scouts with shotties puts you into T2 easy. At that time, it's only a matter of getting a single vehicle to counter his entire army. Massing shotguns means that he's forgoing other things that cost power too, like ASMs or commander upgrades. If he tries to mass scouts with shotties in anything beyond T1, then you only need a one detector to nullify his cloaking. Shotgun scouts are pretty fragile when they don't have the cloaking advantage.

[Chris]

If you're in a SM mirror match and you see he has 3 scout squads you take your army to his power node and nuke it. No more power, no more shotguns.

[Latias418]

I take it you hadn't notice that scout shotguns have already been nerfed in this patch? Have you played it?

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Seriously?

[ThatGuyThere]

So it seems that currently the consensus is that we have to play around more to see just how effective or not scouts are. Perhaps the only issue is knock back against heroes, after all not all commanders have the ability to shield themsevles from the knockback with abilities and a fairly cheap squad (You start with one don't forget making the price of your first shotgun scout squad only 40/20) can tie down a hero for a while thanks to knockback, if the only answer is to run away it still takes a while to run back to base and then back out to the battle. Perhaps if knockback vs commanders was reduced that could solve the big complaint about scouts. I may be totally off base of course but I still would like people's input.

[BL4zD]

Running back to base is not the only answer. The answer is to not run your commander around capping solo.

[Ozymandias]

Because scouts with shotguns are better then Gaurdians with grenades right?
Scouts are the weakest unit in the game. Bar None.
They only become decent once you invest 20 or 35 power into them unfortunately for a space marine player 20 power is a large amount, because against a good player your going to be node harassed to death and be playing on minimum resources, god forbid you go against a ork player worth his salt, you might aswell never even invest in power stations.

[ViS]

Scouts are great for their cost.

[Ozymandias]

Negative. Compare a guardian squad to a scout squad.
I'd make the trade, I could live with out sniper rifles or shotguns for tier 1 grenades almost twice as much life for 50 more req.
Please don't say apples to oranges either.

[OBhave]

Silly shotguns keeping people permanently knocked down make the game seem LESS than cartoony. Some ridiculous Benny Hill stuff going on.


This silly shit needs fixing. There are several ways to do so, but I would prefer them reducing the knockdown duration... it just looks so bloody silly to see people taking their sweet time getting up like that, HURRY UP dammit.


P.S. Longer knockdowns could of course be reserved for some proper powerful stuff like an artillery shell or being smacked around by a walker/avatar ... but come on... silly, wee little shotguns? Bah...

[ViS]

Negative. Compare a guardian squad to a scout squad.
I'd make the trade, I could live with out sniper rifles or shotguns for tier 1 grenades almost twice as much life for 50 more req.
Please don't say apples to oranges either.

310/10 vs 210.

[Deacon412]

na scout shotguns are fine, they are great for fighting orks and nids....great for ambushing just great....umm try just shooting at em with upgraded shootas or using that supress cannon from the nid warriors....i cant speak for eldar because they seem like they should be on top of things there...i dont play as them any way

[D-coy]

@ViS

It's actually 320/10 VS. 210. Last time I checked, Guardians cost 270 req and their upgrade cost 50/10. Just to be exact.

EDIT: I was wrong... wrong... oh the horror!

[ViS]

50? I thought it was 40...

EDIT: http://www.dow2db.com/upgrade/pvp/ra...ttle_equipment

Didn't know they increased health by a HUGE margin too. That's... Insane.

[D-coy]

Oh, my bad. I totally remembered it being 50. Yep, +200 hp is neat.

[Hirmetrium]

Yes ViS, its why 3xGU build was so crazy good.