Did great in the beta, now can't win a game unless it's against noobs.

[Vertrucio]

I'm using the Kommando Nob and just a week ago I was great in the beta. Regularly taking on equally skilled high ranking players and winning with good micro and use of a variety of units.

Now, I'm dying, getting completely wasted (by people ranked 10 higher than me too, nice fix on the matchmaking relic) in head to head.

I use the Kommando Nob.

So far, my staple units of sluggas just aren't cutting it. Early on I do pretty well, using all the tier 1 units to good effect, except stormboys, I don't need them as much since I have a Kommando for disruption.

But, as soon as tier 2 rolls around it's game over. I lose all momentum, my core units like sluggas when supported and fighting enemies point for points get slaughtered in 3 seconds to Assault Space Marines and Tyrannid Warriors + gaunts.

So far that's the common theme. With assault marines, they just seem to level up really fast, quickly putting their health way beyond my ability to kill them or drive them off quickly. They do a lot of damage quickly to sluggas.

With Nids, it's cappy cappy all over the map. I fight them off tier 1, then out come warriors and I love everything. My 3 sluggas get looked at by Adrenal Gland warrior + 2 hormigaunt squads and they turn into green/pink mist.

Stikkbommaz don't help as much since players easily dodge them.

At tier 2, nobs don't seem to help. The nob itself is more survivable, but the rest of the squad dies just as quickly as before.

I just can't do enough damage quickly to those specific units to make a difference, especially once they hit tier 2.

Any suggestions for the transition up to tier 2? Or to get a better foothold in tier 1?

[Waffls112]

Just switch your tactics up, experiment, even if you loose, it helps ALOT. BIG tip, some players have just adapted to the early pressure of orcs and just demolish em before you have a chance to get to them, so the thing that works for me is doing what they do, cap alot of points as effectively possible. Make sure you cap points near each other so if oyu get attacked you can just easily set you army into positions. Also don't always spam sluggas, have a shoota to support them, its good because they can keep pressure even if you retreat your sluggas. Also the truth is, people that didn't dodge nades were always noobs because its easy to avoid, I only use stickbombs as anti suppresion and to get units to move instead actualy trying to kill them so my shootas can get better shots off and my sluggas can move up easier. I promise you, experimenting may get annoying because you'l loose even harder then before but you learn more!

[LandShark]

Use waagh, get a flamer or 2 against nids. speshul shoota for the kommando.

stickbombs are fine. they cant dodge them if they are trying to melee your sluggas, and stickbombas do awesome melee damage.

Always target synapse creatures first. If you kill them, the gaunts and some others take synapse damage and are weakened.

[Demonic Spoon]

Booby traps, sticki bombs, and the speshul shoota's explosive rounds are amazing against blobby nids. Slugga boyz aren't bad, but having some Shoota Boyz in the back (Especially upgraded) help a lot, ESPECIALLY when you use suppression. Explosives of any kind (Explosive shells, nades, etc) are great for breaking them up.

Also, remember that if your Slugga Boyz have flamethrowers, they will NOT enter into melee by default. This is bad, as they'll sit there 5 feet away and shoot pistols + flamers. Hold Z and click to get them to rush into melee. The flamethrowers will still get used, but not to the exclusion of the squad's melee abilities.

[Vertrucio]

Thanks for the tips guys, I'm doing better.

However, do flamethrowers really work while in melee? I'd always assumed they didn't.

[Demonic Spoon]

They do not. However, if you're being charged, they'll fire as the enemy closes. If you're charging, you will flame on the charge in. Also, there are situations where you'll want to stand there flaming away.

[whatsleft]

im facing this same problem here, sluggas are too easily wiped, there is no scalability with them against other races, compared to lets say, gaunts who get a boost at every tier and with synapse, guardians with a good warlock leader, grenades and fof, tac marines, well they are tac marines.

waagh is great, but imo, its expensive, it has an extremely long cooldown, it was nerfed 2x(cooldown and stats), i didnt think it needed the 90sec nerf.

so far i have no idea how to form up a good solid wall of greenskins in t2. nob leader as well, i find too expensive and too fragile, since they are strictly melee troopers, everything just get wiped in a melee battle. 75req and 25power is way too expensive for them imo for watever small bonuses he is providing, it would be more worthy if recklessness was somewhat buffed, like a speedboost when the ability is on.

[streak]

What changed between beta and now for the orks?

[whatsleft]

erm, not much, suppression units are buffed, req rate decreased, leaders are still as expensive.

[Vertrucio]

It was more the accumulation of changes from beta to retail, along with other changes not specifically mentioned in update notes.

The big problem is partly the reliance on sluggas too much. Before I was running primarily sluggas even through tier 2. Now, I see that I need to have a better mix. The main problem with sluggas in tier 2 is that they can't take advantage of cover to reduce the damage they take, they rely solely on WAAAGH. In tier 2, I think using shootas a bit more in cover, then sluggas to cover them initially. I've found that in tier 2, shootas with the nob and the big gun upgrade deals out quite a bit of damage and can suppress. Remember that he nob leader for Shootas also has his own big gun. Later on sluggas can charge forward into the fray once you've got the shootas setup.

On upgrades to shootas and sluggas, are the flamethrower troops in sluggas and the big gun on shootas tougher than a normal ork? I'll have to look closely but it almost seems like it's nob carrying that extra weapon. If so, that's a lot of extra HP for it.

Also, is the extra damage from the nob leader upgrade just because the nob does more damage, or to all the orks in the squad do more damage in general?

Yeah, either way. Because they neglected to roll back the leader cost increase from the beta now that they've toned down the resource income, that also really hurts in tier 2 since Orks absolutely rely on that leader upgrade.

[whatsleft]

yea pretty much so. especially true in 3v3s.

as for leader costs, i dont mind the req as 75, but the power shouldnt stay 25 for a relatively weak leader like the nob sluggas, unless u are telling me hes gonna come with 650hp and a big choppa, well fine.

power should probably stay at 15.

[Steel*Faith]

Hardly anyone plays Orks, so there's not a big fanbase to speak up for orks. At the moment Orks are underpowered, particularly vs Tyranids.

WAAAGH! needs a change to be between how it used to be, and how it is now. Before it might have been a little too much, but now it's cooldown is way too long, and it's cost is pretty expensive. Also Ork shooting needs to be made more useful, because I think it's ridiculous that Shoota Boyz cost as much as Slugga boyz, when clearly Slugga boyz are superior.

The thing that gets me the most is, that orks require so much micro and finesse!? I feel like i'm playing DoW Eldar when using DoW II orks. They're so fragile, and unforgiving. Difference being you have to get them bunched up for the WAAAGH! bonus, but their numbers are pathetic.

I also feel the strategic options for orks is quite poor at the moment. I heavy ranged build for an ork army isn't very viable at the moment. Melee is way too dominant, and ork shooting is quite poor. So what does everyone do, mass sluggaz and stikkbommaz? Wow, exciting eh?

I truly feel the more I play orks, that they don't feel like Orks from WH40k. When a dieing race like the Eldar, who are struggling to stay alive are pumping out as many, or more units than Orks, something is really wrong.

So i'm pretty pissed off about orks at the moment. Early in the beta they were a race to be feared, and had their great strengths and weaknesses, now they are without dispute the weakest race. Hence why we're left fighting SM, Eldar, Tyranids, with the rare ork player once and awhile.

[Demonic Spoon]

Shoota boyz, particularly with the upgrade, are very powerful, and easily on par with sluggas. They get TWO direct firepower upgrades which are both significant.

One squad using WAAAGH affects all others, so you could just only use WAAGH on one or two squads at a time, and then use it on others to circumvent the cooldown. The way I understand it, you can choose between one massive epic WAAAAAAAAAGH or a few smaller, but still powerful, WAAAAAGHs depending on how many you use.

I use primarily ork ranged troops, and they do very well. Some sluggas to tie them up, and maybe some grenades to knock them around a bit and you're set.

[Gyan]

I don't consider myself a skilled player at all. I don't have enough gametime yet anyway. Still, in beta, I did quite alright, winning most of my games.

Lately, I've just been getting raped. Tyranids, mostly, are just horrible. Too big numbers, and I just can't seem to even scratch them. The tyrant is an absolute monster, as are the warriors, tearing my troops apart.

Sluggas used to be awesome. Right now, I do alright with them in tier 1, back by a squad of shootas. As tier 2 comes, it's all over. It's a real challenge to manage to actually keep the squad alive. Too often I find myself insta retreating the sluggas, and the little damage I manage to do is done by the commander and the ranged orks, shooting while enemies try to kill the fleeing sluggas. Sluggas just get TORN APART way too fast.
As has been said before, marines also make short work of them.

I'm really just rambling here. All this has been said before, I'd just like to emphasize it.
I also agree on the cost arguments. Sluggas without Waagh are next to useless now. Especially in T2 and up. Don't even get me started on the nobs. 75 req, 25 power, jesus christ. To upgrade a unit that gets torn to shreds instantly.

The bottom line is, even in DoW, Orks were kind of micro intensive, more so than marines, chaos, necrons or sisters anyway.
That's still the case in DoW2. Still, I think there's something wrong with the amount of micro required. Agreed, I'm not the best of players, and I can totally understand units like stikkbommaz, kommandos (and their commander), tankbustas and whatnot requiring heavy amounts of micro.

However, at the moment, I feel like the most micro intensive unit is the slugga, your base unit, supposed to just be thrown at the enemy, chopping and shooting everything maniacally.

Seriously, wtf?

[Steel*Faith]

Yep, I don't care what anyone says, Orks are severely underpowered compared to all the other races at the moment. I feel like i'm playing a gimp Eldar. All the units are incredibly fragile, by the time your troops are in combat, you might as well hit the retreat button because they die in seconds.

All of our units cost about as much as Eldar units, except Eldar units are better for the buck, same for Nids. Orks just aren't balanced, they feel like your fighting to survive, instead of causing mayhem and overwhelming your enemy. It's very frustrating.

[LandShark]

all i can say is you guys are playing them all wrong. at 80 wins and 13 losses. im doing just fine with my orks.

[Gyan]

Well, no doubt there is a minority of players doing well with orks. Are we all doing it wrong?
We probably don't have the same skill at playing them, that's for sure.

Still, sluggas being so fragile is, to me, a very real problem, regardless of skill.

The cost of Waagh! is another. It's very, very hard to afford any of the other abilities, considering the cost.

Now I'm sure that if sufficiently skilled, you can still roll over the opponent, and overcome these problems. But that really isn't the question.

Edit: One thing I forgot to add is that I've been using the Kommando lately. He takes some getting used to, that's for sure. I do love him to bits (although I don't use all his explosive booby traps etc, don't sabotage much), but one thing cruelly missing is the Boss Pole. The supression resistance it provides really is godly.

[LandShark]

maybe the orks arent your play style?

i am no where near as good with eldar, and i have never actually tried nids.

I have no problem with the costs of waagh. you dont use waagh all the time, try using other units to tie up things so your sluggas can get into melee combat.

i just dont think you are trying all of your options.

if you have the kommando you dont need suppression resistance. you can tie up multiple units with your kommando giving a clear and easy path for your sluggas.

[Steel*Faith]

Well it's strange to me that Orks are more micro intensive than Eldar, and even more fragile.

Not to mention the population cost for Ork units is way too high considering. I compared pop costs between orks and eldar, and it's ridiculous that Orks have nearly the same pop costs to Eldar. Orks should be able to field many more units.

[LandShark]

that is partly where call the horde comes into play.

sure you might take some casualties on the charge, but you just replaced all your losses, and any losses you receive for a while.

if you cant get sluggas into combat, try something else. stormboyz? do you need grenades to dislodge weapons teams, get a stickbomba.

pop caps might be the same, but orks generally cost less to.

[whatsleft]

im on 20-3 with orks ts31, still i do not consider myself an exceptional player but im pretty sure i know at least the basics of the orks.

call da boyz is expensive, its 375waagh and 250req, ignoring the req costs, getting 375 waagh points right in t2 is tough, especially when sluggas need waaagh not to win battles, but to SURVIVE them, winning comes way after that. for every waagh u pop thats 48waagh down the drain and a 90seconds cooldown.

sluggas are fine actually, t1 they are worth every bit of their req. however slugga nob leader iz not. for their cost now, they are extremely underpowered, recklessness is useful, but ur boyz are still going to get chewed up when they get close to heavy bolters or support fire, while u stare in horror when u got past their suppression, raw t2 firepower still chews up sluggas.

like i mentioned before, nob leaders should provide scalability for sluggas, passive defensive boosts to the squad? a more powerful recklessness ability(move faster, take reduced damage, breaks suppression)?

[LandShark]

tier 2, you get this thing called a war truck, you can load your melee up and deploy them in the middle of a battle.

[whatsleft]

tier 2, dey get dose rokkit thingys dat blow us up real gud.

wartrukk iz kumbasum, takez too long to unload da boyz fer da choppin and da fightin. dey iz gud reinforcement point dough.

imo the only real saving grace for da boyz is a deff dread

[LandShark]

it takes multiple rockets to destroy it, you can easily get in range and dump your guys and attack the rockets.

[Vertrucio]

Considering how long it takes to unload and the plethora of AV weapons that would be deployed along a front, it's very very risky. Best to scout ahead and then use the truck only after.

[Ckrow]

Ive not had much luck using the war truck to get into melee, it seems to struggle too much with pathing. However its still a very handy unit, the ability to reinforce mid battle is priceless, itll cost you a bit but its cheaper than call the boys and may be just enough to stop you losing squads outright. Its also handy for running round the map with 1 squad grabbing points.

Generally im finding that the retreat button is my friend, if you can keep your squads alive (hard with orks as theres lots of them) it helps no end as they will keep leveling up.

Ive had very little trouble playing orks 1v1 (although my trueskill is only 13 or 14 at the moment) the ability to out-squad people early on helps a lot in gaining map control and from there you can often swamp an opponent.

3v3 is more difficult as its hard to overwhelm people early on (unless you have more than 1 ork) and ork late game seems a little lacking

[Steel*Faith]

Orks are just too expensive in general for what you get. Why are nid units so cheap, when they basically are of the same value to ork units?

Synapse offers amazing benefits, and it's free and constant. WAAAGH! is important, but it fairly expensive, and drains from global abilities. While biomass isn't linked to buffing their units. It doesn't seem like a fair trade off (it did at one time).

If the Warboss had a "WAAAGH!" aura, i'd take that any day over, the extremely long cooldown, expensive WAAAGH! ability that has a smaller radius than a synapse aura.

[LandShark]

Orks have some of the cheapest upgrades and units available. look at the costs of venom cannons or adrenal glands for warriors.

hell look at the costs of raveners, lictors, zoan's, warriors. they all cost more than orks, and you get less.

orks are uncountable. you are all forgetting to use thier call the horde ability. It changes the battle from looking like you are about to lose, to you just have your entire army brought back. No other race can do that.

i hate to bust out the l2p card, but maybe that is it, or you should try using a different race.

[frankenstein]

Oi, Orkz iz da greenest an da strongest!

The way to play as orkz in my humble opinion is to compound your enemies problems and overtake his troops in a wave of sheer orkiness. Keeping yer boyz alive is paramount in t1, if they're getting mowed down you retreat. Do this by tying up suppression teams ASAP, do not let them have their way with you. Sluggaz only want to get stuck in to shooty enemies to keep em from shootin. Teleport your mek right into the suppression team and have him start punching them. Camo your kommando and sneak in to do the same. Warboss? Charge in there and stomp em flat. Use grenades, stormboys, anything to make their suppression a waste of money. Buy time for the sluggaz to get in there and massacre shooty squads and suppression teams, which they do great. Then blow up their generataz! That'll learn em ta mess wid you.

Never neglect to build at least one shoota squad with big shootaz (always!) to dakka dakka their melée teams (or big wunz like FC or tyrant.). One shoota using aimin' while two sluggaz are wauugh near them will riddle an enemy with bullets and smash em good.

There are more strategies for t2 but being able to dominate in t1 really helps with orkz. Remember: Think orky!! Keep it simple, you grotz.

[Steel*Faith]

ell look at the costs of raveners, lictors, zoan's, warriors. they all cost more than orks, and you get less.

You get less? They're all expensive because they're damn good. Zoanthrope is good vs any unit, and has a nice synapse aura. Raveners kick a lot of ass, period. Lictors are deadly assassins and squad killers. Warriors are what makes Nids all powerful, and and extremely adaptable and tough.

orks are uncountable. you are all forgetting to use thier call the horde ability.

Actually they're very easily countable. They're aren't that swarmy in DoW II MP. Their squads equal about the same in numbers to Eldar, not sure where you're getting "uncountable from". As for call the horde, I usually can't afford it early - mid game because i'm spending most of it on WAAAGH! buff, stikkbommaz ect. Not to mention how many times you think you're going to use that ability in a match, maybe once? Otherwise i'm sure it's very powerful.

So maybe you should play me, and teach me how to play if you think Orks are so good right now. I'll be very happy to get beat playing you 1v1, if you can. My ID is SteelFaith.

[LandShark]

you forget that synapse is a also a weakness. killing synapse creatures devastate the gaunts and rippers that make up the bulk of your army.

also units that arent under synapse are crap, utter crap. so guants that are away trying to steal a point will always have to retreat.

[Demonic Spoon]

the problem is that, at least before t2-t3, it's very hard to kill the synapse creatures.

[whatsleft]

actually i have some luck dealing with nids now. slap on bigga shootas for the shoota gitz and have them pelt away at warrior broods. if there is anything targeting them, back up, have a slugga hit the nid thats chasing ur shoota boyz. resume shooty business once they turn around to hit ur sluggas.

it wont take long before warrior broods go down to constant fire.

[Gyan]

I've had some luck with burnas against nids. That, and stikks just meleeing. Their knockback is very useful, as someone pointed out.

One thing though. The more I play, the more I feel the Nob leaders must be some kind of a bad joke. The idiots seem to have the durability of a grot, christ. And as has been said so many times, just too god damn expensive.

[LandShark]

nob leaders basically double the dps of the squad. you are crazy if you think they arent worth it. they have the health of 3 sluggas also.

[Gyan]

Then it's either bad luck or them getting picked by the enemy right away. I'm not talking about their DPS. They're just the first to go. Every time I retreat to reinforce a squad that's lots 2 or more members, you can be sure the nob is one of the dead ones.

It's also not about them being worth it. It's about the games economy right now. They're not too expensive in a way that they're not good enough DPS wise. They're too expensive given I have to replace them every time, and the income, even with map control, isn't what it used to be.

[LandShark]

they are fine. all leaders are expensive.

[Aquila]

Well, no doubt there is a minority of players doing well with orks. Are we all doing it wrong?

Probably. Most of the Ork players I encounter just build tons of sluggas and rush them all forward in a horde. Most of the complaints I hear are that people are upset that it doesn't work. Come on people. Just because you're playing an Ork army doesn't mean you can just forget about strategy and tactics.

Tier 1, consider an even mix of shootas and sluggas. More shootas if you're a warboss, more sluggas if you're a Kommando or Mek. Big shoota upgrade is a must. Warboss needs a custom shoota upgrade. And for god's sake, use cover. Don't charge forward with the sluggas unless its a charge you can win. Just because they have close combat weapons doesn't mean you have to CHARGE ALL THE TIME WAAAGH. If you use cover correctly and avoid charging into suppression weapons Orks can dominate Tier 1.

Tier 2 gives you even more options. Again, most of the Ork players I see mass produce Deff Dreads and rush them at the enemy. There are other units, use them. Nobz are absolutely insane in close combat. Even assault marines are going to get torn up by Nobz.

I learned by play Orks by playing against them. I saw what worked against me (large numbers of shootas in cover, superior map control) and what failed miserably (mass sluggas charging forward, mass deff dreads). Bottom line is, Orks are very tough opponents when used correctly, and most of the complaints I see boil down to people upset that simplistic strategies (or no strategy whatsoever) don't produce results.

Orks are primitive. You are not. Use your head.

[Vertrucio]

Actually, Nob squads are only in Tier 3.

At tier 2 all we get are Nob Leaders for out sluggas and shootas squads, but that only gives the squad a bit more health and damage output from the nob itself. So the rest of the squad will die just as quickly as before, with you constantly retreating the nob leader, if it survives that long. Units we can build are Lootas, which is a weak suppression weapon at a time when most suppression weapons can be dealt with by tier 2 and tier 1 units. The lootas can be turned into one of the best AV weapons in the game though, but it still requires setup time. There's also the Deff Dread, discussed enough already. Tankbustas are always helpful in a variety of ways, but have limitations and no frontline fighting ability. Then the wartrukk, which is useful, but as above has no frontline ability.

The noobs you're fighting using slugga hordes are just that, noobs. What we're talking about is our core ork units, even if used well, don't have any frontline fighting ability once the match hits tier 2. Even if used well, we don't have anything that can hold back the enemy in a well managed fight.

Orks also level up much more slowly than other units. While SMs will reach level 3 or 4. Often times Ork sluggas and shootas rarely get above level 2, they're either killed way too quickly or are unable to dish out enough damage to kill the tougher enemy unit they face.

The common thing I'm seeing these days in replays of medium to high level players are just a complete skipping of tier 2, avoiding combat and just trying to stay alive through tier 2 until they reach tier 3 and can bring out a quick Looted Tank, which gives Orks the punch they needed at tier 2.

[whatsleft]

exactly wat vertrucio said.

The common thing I'm seeing these days in replays of medium to high level players are just a complete skipping of tier 2, avoiding combat and just trying to stay alive through tier 2 until they reach tier 3 and can bring out a quick Looted Tank, which gives Orks the punch they needed at tier 2.

im going to try this in my next game.

[Aquila]

Vertrucio, that makes sense, I didn't mean to be harsh but your original post was diluted by people following up with statements like this:

However, at the moment, I feel like the most micro intensive unit is the slugga, your base unit, supposed to just be thrown at the enemy, chopping and shooting everything maniacally.

Apparently you don't have that problem. Anyway, I still think shootas are the key. I've seen some VERY tough ork players that maintain their shoota units, upgrade the nobs, and back them up with Rokkit squads to keep them viable. Rokkits IMO are one of the best AV units in the game for their cost, which helps considerably in Tier 2 when most SM or Eldar players are going to be on the back foot. Main problem is upgraded assault marines and Tyranids (can't help you with tyranids unfortunately). Plasma cannons can give you a headache, for sure, but surely a Stormboyz unit can help handle that problem? And despite what I said about Deff Dreads, they're still an insanely cheap walker. Between stormboys to tie up the shooty squads and a Dread to charge in, backed up by the shootas and rokkits... I still think it's pretty competitive.

I guess the key is trying to keep your units alive until that point. In equal numbers you'll be overwhelmed.

I dunno, I always play pretty conservatively so that may be the difference. I'm by no means an expert though.

[Vertrucio]

Yep, I do like how cheap my stuff is, despite not being able to hold in a fight for that long.

Assault marines are a huge problem for me. Nothing stops them, let alone kills them. My main melee unit, even in groups of 3 sluggas with nobs and a with a shoota unit shooting at them still gets beat down by assault marines as they jump in, do damage, then flee. They're so hard to kill and get away so quickly, and level so fast that they just start destroying whatever I can bring against them. Even worse when my enemy uses two against me. As before, the sluggas and shootas with so little health (Even with nob leaders) die very, very quickly to 1 assault marine squad, let alone 2. If I try to retreat, the assault marines move so quickly that they kill the squad before they get away. And because I have to concentrate my forces so much to just stay alive, even an SM player can run around with his other units capping the map.

I think I'm fine with the lower damage output of Sluggas, past tier 2, but I think they could get a buff in health or armor around that time so that they can stay around in fights. Even fights where I outnumber my enemies, they tend to get wasted.

My main complaint is that Orks can no longer afford to be Orky in tier 2. And suddenly we have to play in a style that's more skittish than eldar. We no longer have that core front line horde that we can rely on to hold the line, I'm not saying that Ork waves rushed right at the enemy should be always effective. But even when using Ork core units well, WAAAGHing at the right time, disrupting enemies at the right time, and giving them support, all the other races will still wipe out those core Ork units with much less effort than the Ork player puts in to get them into combat.

This leaves us with pulling the common tactic of going early T3, bringing out the looted tank and kiting everything around to get decent damage output, enough to actually win engagements simply by driving enemies off.

[Gyan]

You're making pretty hasty conclusions here svedish. What I implied in that quote is that I don't find normal that the base ork unit is the most micro intensive one.

One that just dies if someone speaks harshly at it. I think most people on these forums also read quite a bit, and we're all fairly educated as to how to play the race.

"just spamming slugga armies" isn't something to be found here.

[Thoragoros]

I think that part of the problem is that Orks, right now, don't play like Orks. Orks are supposed to be the anti-micro faction that relies on numbers and wearing down their enemies. Yet the Orks are easily one of the most micro intesive factions in the game.

Right now, however, we have, essentially, a 'green Eldar' race. The Orks feel very much like differently skinned Eldar, Eldar with some comedy. Orks are supposed to be numerous, but they boast about the same number of troops as the Eldar. Couple that with the fact that Tier 1 Ork units, which are structed to remain the backbone of the Orks throughout the game, are essentially useless due to their fragility, and you've got a faction that is essentially bordering on broken.

[LandShark]

while i dont share your views on tier 1 units losing thier usefulness.

I did think it would be cool for ork units to turn into nobs as they level up. Oi, i tink im gettin bigga! I's gonna be a nob one day.

[Thoragoros]

Well, they don't lose their usefulness entirely, but as others have said here, entire mobs of sluggas can get thrown into melee only to get cut down or insta routed in mere seconds. Shootas are meant to be massed, but the popcap doesn't allow this.

[Vertrucio]

Another issue is just how much you can bring out.

Take SM vs Orks.

While it's true that SM cost way more than orks, and it's certainly fair that you'll need at least two Slugga squads to take out a Tac Marine or Assault marine squad.

However, those SM units will take much fewer losses compared to the Orks. That money we spend on reinforcements means that we aren't able to build that extra unit needed to go frontline against those SM units. It's even more likely that we'll just lose entire units, including all that experience, and have to spend more requisition just to build a replacement squad.

On top of that, those SM units all have abilities that effectively nullify the power of Orks, such as They Shall Know No Fear, and the Assault Marine's Jump Landing disruption (and high melee damage).

And that's just in an optimal situation.

Another way to make tier 2 orks more useful might be to change the Recklessness ability for Sluggas with the Nob Leader so that it also gives knockdown resistance. This would allow an Ork player with good micro to avoid some of the knockdown from ASMs and Termigaunts with Ranged Synapse.

Even just making the experience threshholds for Ork basic unit levels lower would help.

[Steel*Faith]

I think Nob leaders are VERY useful, and actually a must have, but they're not easy to afford.

I think Orks are actually pretty balanced the more I play them, the real roble is nids. I can beat SM, Eldar players no problem, but Tyranids are just insanely powerful. Although they're a problem for everyone at the moment, not just Orks.

I also think melee and ranged combat aren't on the same level. Melee seems to be more dominant still, instead of a balance. Even melee commander seem vastly more powerful compared to ranged commanders.

[Metavirulent]

Many problems today may also come from popcap bug. Please note that popcap bug not only means that you are running out of pop eventually, but you totally play at insane upkeep levels, meaning that you don't get enough income.

The better you conserve your units and replace losses in tier 1, the more pop you'll be using up and the higher the upkeep you pay, meaning that you will stall and then get overwhelmed.

While it is always costy to replace losses, it is even moreso if the replace make you end up with higher upkeep and you constantly pay for the unit you replaced and still don't have until the end of the game.