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[1.2] Grey Knights and Librarian combo.

  1. General Discussions Senior Member  #1
    Senior Member roflmao's Avatar
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    [1.2] Grey Knights and Librarian combo.

    It's bullshit.

    I normally refrain from just waltzing in here and making an angry post because of one single experience. But this one takes the cake.

    I was playing an unranked 1v1 match. The guy had a 90% win ratio which made me think I was going to lose before the match even started (and sure enough, I did), but to my suprise, I was actually kicking his ass at the beggining. I was at his base and had most of the map. Then out of nowhere a squad of Grey Knights with a Librarian came.


    The crazy healing powers of the Librarian along with the power of the grey knights and the (bullshit) power of the Librarian made the squad deadly and un-fucking-killable. I was forced to retreat, but it got to the point where I had an FC, 2 SM squads, and 2 Dreadnoughts (one normal and one hellfire) and still could not kill the squad.

    All he had was his Grey Knight squad, the Librarian, and another Sm squad with rocket launchers (to take out my dreads). I focused fire on the Grey Knight squad and NOTHING WOULD KILL THE BASTARDS. I ended up resigning because I lost all my units to my opponents crazy super powers (and eventually lost my dreads to the rocket launchers of his SM squad)


    Anyone ever experienced this before? How do you deal with this?
    Last edited by roflmao; 22nd Feb 09 at 4:04 PM.

  2. #2
    Softie. Big One. Danustar's Avatar
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    Hey Roflmao,

    To be clear, you're not talking about GKs & Chaplain?

  3. General Discussions Senior Member  #3
    Senior Member roflmao's Avatar
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    Nope. Pretty sure it was a Librarian (especially since he had the T2 building (that I do not remember the name of) where you build the Librarian and Apothecaries)

  4. #4
    Softie. Big One. Danustar's Avatar
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    Yeah, Sacred Artifact.
    Ok, the reason I queried you is that I'm quite sure the Librarian has no healing power.

    I've personally never seen the Librarian attached to GKs.
    Usually it's Ivan. And that is overpowered, yes.

  5. #5
    I'll assume you are talking about Ivan + Grey Knights, not Librarian + Grey Knights.

    Are you talking about Soulstorm or Dark Crusade?

    The combo is overpowered in Dark Crusade, because it's so easy to tech too - but if you scout well early you can effectively counter it and pull off a win.

    As for Soulstorm, they are fine, and tend to come out so late, that by the time they come out, unless you've already lost, you should have plenty stuff at your disposal that can easily kill them. Never really seen anybody have any huge difficulty with Ivan + Grey Knights in Soulstorm, even though they are still effective together of course.

    With your forces, you should have used the Hellfire to lockdown the Missile squad, then had your Dreadnought beat on the Grey Knights in melee, with your Tacs and Force Commander filling their faces with Plasma (while making good use of the Stun on your Frag Grenades...you remember you've got that, right?). Should have been a relatively easy win...

    Three Mysticism Guardian Squads have enough firepower to kill Ivan + Grey Knights together, so a Force Commander and 2x Tacs with Plasma can easily do it. I have a feeling you forgot to use your Frags is all.
    Last edited by KotCR; 22nd Feb 09 at 4:35 PM.

  6. #6
    As KotCR said GK's were only OP in DC because they were available as soon as you hit T2 (no SA required).

    In SS they are still good units, but are expensive and come out rather late so they aren't super effective. You just got outplayed my friend, it was a mirror match after all. FYI the Librarian does not provide any additional regeneration bonuses.

    I don't see how Lib + GK and a squad of missiles could beat FC, 2 TSM squads and a Dreadnought of each type.

    Edit: Why do people call the Chaplain "Ivan", I was never confused by this (the name fits IMO), but I just don't know the actual reason behind it.
    Last edited by bman3k; 22nd Feb 09 at 7:39 PM.

  7. #7
    Can't remember exactly, one of the pro players coined the term at some point IIRC, and it just stuck, because, as you say, it seems to suit.

    I assume the inspiration for the name was from Ivan the Terrible (if you don't know who that is, check your history a little bit I guess), because of how insanely overpowered the Chaplain was when Winter Assault was originally released (that's if you were lucky enough to not get Bayonet rushed by insanely powerful Guardsmen and killed in T1).

    The old tactic was to spam upgraded ASM with Ivan in support; Ivan got overnerfed first, then brought back to a more reasonable state (more or less how he is today), and ASMs also got nerfed - other than the whole nerf to Power Swords (as at one point they hardcore raped everything), they balanced it further by making ASM take 3 cap instead of 2...a decision which SM players still suffer from today, despite SS being less spam-orientated than WA.
    Last edited by KotCR; 23rd Feb 09 at 7:54 AM.

  8. #8
    nah it's from Rocky IV. Ivan Drago says "i must break you" to Rocky... when Chaplain attacks he says "Break the enemy line"

  9. #9
    Is it just me or am i am i understanding these two posts right?

    " i lost to a guy who built GK with a librarian & because of it's healing powers and other massive imbalances of these units i got killed and all my men died + all my vehicles. I think it was the librarian that is the massively imbalanced unit because it came out a building i don't know the name of were apoc's normally come out "

    My advice would be to head over dow sanc and watch some replays, no offense but you don't come accross as someone who's played the game much

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Laspistol
    nah it's from Rocky IV. Ivan Drago says "i must break you" to Rocky... when Chaplain attacks he says "Break the enemy line"
    Ahh, that would make sense too...considering he has that Morale-breaking shout and stuff...

  11. #11
    ... Yah.. I dunno how you lost that one champ.. Going from your lack of knowladge of even just the unit names, I'd say you need to get more exp under your belt before making another post.


    Besides, you play SM too - just use the same units... ._.

  12. #12
    gk + chap is still fucking broken in dc, even if you scout

    I rushed an sm with 3x tacs on overwatch, decapped most of his stuff, destroyed all gens, but he still had enough resources (somehow) to pump out a gk and chap at 3 min mark which managed to chase me off with PI and chappy shout, and then with fully reinforced squad of gk took on 24 tacs at range with no casualties w/o using abilities -.- on second thought though, it could have *possibly* been a hack. I watched the replay, but didnt switch to his side to check resources admittedly. But he had no secret gens or such hiding in a corner, and yet managed to get the... 230? power needs for gkchappy

    but regardless of that experience;

    it is nearly impossible to stop gk from coming out because it only takes 3 minutes, i think the only way that even comes close is spid tc rush. gk have the most hp of pretty much any t2 unit, are quite cheap req-wise (30 power per though), do insane melee AND range damage, AND comes with an insane ability. With chappy they effectively become a bunch of fucking force commanders that cost 1/4th the req -.-

  13. #13
    Member Corsair1's Avatar
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    The only thing I've ever had some sucess with beating GK+chappy is mass reapers. But if the other guy knows what hes doing even that doesnt work to well.

  14. #14
    @Latias
    GK's are broken in DC because of how fast they come out, and in most cases you will have trouble stopping them from coming out in the first-place (though Chaos with their Power Swords and Tau with their Vespids should have little trouble taking down the RAX before they come out), but it is possible to prepare for them in a way that means you can take them out and once they are gone the SM player is left with nothing whatsoever and loses.

    Even if you couldn't take the RAX out in time with those 2 races, 3x Fire Warriors + Tau Commander and good Snare usage would enable an easy win, and Chaos had no difficulty with their uber T1 Heavy Bolters (CSM T1 Heavy Bolters could be stronger than SM T2 Heavy Bolters), Plasma Pistols, Berzerk Fury and Frag Grenades. It may sound alot, but it could all be gotten by the time the Grey Knights came out (think about how Chaos was the only race that could pull of reliable wins against Necrons in DC).

    @Corsair1
    As said, 3x Guardians (+Farseer usually) could take them out with good use of Entanglement and Plasma Grenades, the GK's ranged damage wasn't that impressive (after the nerf in the first patch), just decent. FoF/Entanglement prevents them closing melee.

    Orks could hide behind buildings guns, and hide in buildings to prevent Shout/P.I. gib (and your standard Big Shootas rush would do a bloody good job anyway). Mek + 'port could save a squad from this too. It was more or less the same story with Guard, but you had to have a Turret and LP2 protected by Mines (preventing melee and they won't take those structures out on ranged with any efficiency). You'd basically box the SM in until you could hit him with something big, eliminate him and win the game (afterall, you had total map control and he had no eco).

    As for Necrons, 2x Warrior Squads + the Lord could take them out with little difficulty. In melee.
    You had easy access to Flayed Ones who were about as tough for melee anyway.

    Often, the trick would be to kill the GK's before they could join up with the Chaplain, as you'd be sitting right outside his RAX (attemping to destroy it) as the GK's emerged. Without the Chaplain around they were easy pickings.
    Last edited by KotCR; 18th Mar 09 at 5:59 AM.

  15. #15
    Hum.. I dunno nothin about DC...

    Anyway
    KotCR is back $D

    When we gona play again xD?

  16. #16
    Yes, been working round the clock for a few days (I do have two jobs ).
    I've got paperwork to do all today, then tomorrow I have to hand it all in and I have a date, and then I'm back at work for a few days.
    So erm...when I get a chance to play next!

  17. #17
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    You've got your priorities wrong. Dating instead of playing DoW???
    Quote Originally Posted by 4Servant
    The key with tau fw spam is not to micro or to predict anything just stand still and do nothing.

  18. #18
    *shrugs* its all good. Get dat datin in SON!

    Ye real life buznas. I been stalkin Orgad in spectatin mode while doin homework for the past few days anyway xD.. The guys not too shaby if I do say so my self u.u

    You kno where to find me when your rdy xP!

  19. #19
    Member Rotlung's Avatar
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    This is worrying in a revolutionary way.
    Quote Originally Posted by chelovek_veliki
    Three FW squads plus Pathfinders plus snares and your base will be as unapproachable as I was by girls in high school.

  20. #20
    GK's are broken in DC because of how fast they come out, and in most cases you will have trouble stopping them from coming out in the first-place (though Chaos with their Power Swords and Tau with their Vespids should have little trouble taking down the RAX before they come out), but it is possible to prepare for them in a way that means you can take them out and once they are gone the SM player is left with nothing whatsoever and loses.

    Even if you couldn't take the RAX out in time with those 2 races, 3x Fire Warriors + Tau Commander and good Snare usage would enable an easy win, and Chaos had no difficulty with their uber T1 Heavy Bolters (CSM T1 Heavy Bolters could be stronger than SM T2 Heavy Bolters), Plasma Pistols, Berzerk Fury and Frag Grenades. It may sound alot, but it could all be gotten by the time the Grey Knights came out (think about how Chaos was the only race that could pull of reliable wins against Necrons in DC).
    Tau stands the best chance against Gk because they can hit the eco earliest, and they can kill Gk the easiest with t1 troops. Other than that, however, it's ridiculous.

    First, hitting the rax will not work with Chaos. The GK are statically out at 2:35 (45s barracks + gen, 80s t2, 30s gk). You would be extremely hard pressed to destroy a barracks in that time, especially if you're trying with melee. If you're meleeing, servitors can repair the barracks to buy more time. Even if you do manage to kill the Servitor(s), it will still buy him the time it takes to kill 2x servitors + wearing down the damage they repaired. Even if you're not meleeing or switch something with a decent ranged dps to range stance, it will still buy a bit of time. If they're not capping, scouts can also melee anything trying to shoot the servitor, or CSM shooting his barracks. This will also buy more time. Sacrificing servitors and scouts will not put the Gker too far behind, as he will have a huge advantage once the GK come out, counterbalancing any advantage you may have gotten off of killing his other units.

    Chaos heavy bolters do not work for shit. In theory, maybe. But when the chappy comes out, even if you managed to afford 2x csm, 8x hb, 2x asp champ, Heavy weapons upgrade, armoury, and frag grenades, you still will not kill gk + chappy. Why? Because HBs are heavy weapons. GK can weather HB damage better than any other unit because they have 800 hp each (at the fucking ridiculously cheap cost of 60 req) + chappy's regen. This gives them enough time to cast Psychic Inquisition, which forces the HBs to relocate or suffer the consequences of massive hp damage and morale being broken very quickly. Then, you cast demoralizing shout on one squad, detach chappy, and now with the HBs broken up, work on killing the squads. One squad will die quickly to the GK because it was hit by Demoralizing shout, while the other squad will be occupied with the chappy. Frag grenades will be a waste of resources in this situation because they will only stun for the same time it takes the heavy weapons to set up, resulting in a short amount of time with a plaspistol firing (maybe buffed w/ rage ability) and nothing else.

    In addition, chaos HBs are not a good strat in general, especially against SM. Even if it did counter GK+chap, you would still not be able to deal with several other strategies SM could use. If he does a 2x asm harass, you can say gg (or bg) and leave immediately. If he does a stealth scout build, which is quite viable in DC, you will be similarly screwed as your Unholy Sight cultists will be picked off by snipers (one sniper shot, one kill. One reinforced volley will wipe out an unreinforced cultist squad) and then chaos marines will be left to deal with invisible plasma. Skull probes attached to scouts w/ snipers make chaos lord auspex an equally bad method of detection. The only strategy that HBs could really work against is 3x tac mass, and even then if he plays it well with using melee stance for both scouts and marines when you aren't set up he can still make you an unhappy panda.

    @Corsair1
    As said, 3x Guardians (+Farseer usually) could take them out with good use of Entanglement and Plasma Grenades, the GK's ranged damage wasn't that impressive (after the nerf in the first patch), just decent. FoF/Entanglement prevents them closing melee.

    Orks could hide behind buildings guns, and hide in buildings to prevent Shout/P.I. gib (and your standard Big Shootas rush would do a bloody good job anyway). Mek + 'port could save a squad from this too. It was more or less the same story with Guard, but you had to have a Turret and LP2 protected by Mines (preventing melee and they won't take those structures out on ranged with any efficiency). You'd basically box the SM in until you could hit him with something big, eliminate him and win the game (afterall, you had total map control and he had no eco).

    As for Necrons, 2x Warrior Squads + the Lord could take them out with little difficulty. In melee.
    You had easy access to Flayed Ones who were about as tough for melee anyway.

    Often, the trick would be to kill the GK's before they could join up with the Chaplain, as you'd be sitting right outside his RAX (attemping to destroy it) as the GK's emerged. Without the Chaplain around they were easy pickings.
    Considering everything else about them, GK's ranged damage is very impressive. Entanglement would serve absolutely no purpose because any player trying to melee 3 squads with lone GK is fucking retarded, and GU do not outrange GK. With 800hp each and 21dps each, they could easily survive until the chappy came out against 3x gu. Even with big numbers, GU w/ warlock would only be doing 7.3dps each, which would kill one gk every 8 seconds if you had 15 of them and weren't losing them. But you would be losing a man every 3 seconds, and thus losing dps. You would probably lose 3 gu before you killed the first GK. Even then, if the GK had to they could escape. You could argue entanglement, but then I argue Psychic Inquisition. Once chappy comes out, the regen, morale break, and chappy pistol quickly turn the tide. Alternatively, the SM player could opt to reinforce his GK instead of going for chappy so that he could guarantee his win against the guardians. With PI to buy time to reinforce and damage the entire mass at least once, doing this would be sure to force a retreat or suffer death.

    For orks, they can hide behind building guns and in buildings, but they give up map control for this. Big Shootas simply do not do enough dps to kill chappy + gk, and again PI + reinforce will work incredibly well. If you're doing map control, you won't have anything waiting outside his rax and he can easily do chappy + 6gk and destroy you at his own pace. It is impossible to box him in, because you cannot get a banner, lp2, and mine at every strategic point he could access. If you want to try that, though, have fun with your total lack of resources (minimum two banners, two mines, two Lp2s at outer points, 2nd gen to support power needed = 780 req + 225 power. You also cannot omit any one of these, because with chappy regen they'll regen faster than you can put out) and even with his 3x-4x points he'll be able to get a Landspeeder out before you have any hope of tankbustaz.

    Vs Necrons, it would be beyond incredibly easy to just wait for 6 men and chappy by running away. That will quickly crush the NW, and so long as the nec didn't go for fast lightning, the NL too. In addition, the SM can scout harass the NL to buy a lot of time and generally piss the nec off.

    GK are not easy pickings with anything but Tau when they have base 2400 hp, 63-72 range dps (depending on armor) which hurts your dps, 13 second reinforce, and an ability that forces you to haul ass and also does good damage during the first burst (which is unavoidable if standing still) to buy time for chappy or reinforcement.
    Last edited by Latias418; 30th Apr 09 at 5:19 AM.

  21. #21
    I missed out on this discussion, but sounds like it was well and truly over?

  22. #22
    Member Corsair1's Avatar
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    Lol, yeah i think so..I miss this place :-(
    Don't Google the question Moss!!!!!

  23. #23
    I missed out on this discussion, but sounds like it was well and truly over?
    There's no particular reason not to revive a discussiong if you contribute to it...

  24. #24
    I remember my very first automatch in dark Crusade. I was playing space marines as soon as the game started i had 1 scout squad just running around decapping my points and reinforcing to stay alive so i had a really bad economy. When i managed to fight these guys off i went on the enemy with 2 squads of tactical marines and my force commander and then i saw the grey knights with chappy pop out. Man, since that was my first automatch i was actually kinda pissed off. Grey knights are ridiculous in dark crusade. That actually scarred me for life and is one of the reasons i don't play dawn of war 1 and none of the expansion packs anymore. The most annoying bit was i bet the guy thought he was very clever scout harassing me while he gets his oh so skillful grey knights.

  25. #25
    3 gu squads will take down gk, with ease if they've just popped out of the rax,

  26. #26
    3 gu squads will take down gk, with ease if they've just popped out of the rax,
    Yay for ignoring statistics.

  27. #27
    i think he means if GK just popped out and they have 3 members, no attach. Not really an argument.

  28. #28
    Member Corsair1's Avatar
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    Hmm, I'm not so sure about 3 Gu squads, they can entangle the GK+Chappy but GK ranged attack is nothing to laugh at and neither is chappy if he has a plasma pistol. And Shout will render 1 of the 3 useless for a short period of time. Eldar could vehicle tech??? it was easier to do back then.

  29. #29
    I dont think anyone is arguing that GK + Chap was not OP in Dark Crusade. I find ways to beat it in DC irrelevant unless you're still playing DC against people who don't mind abusing imba

  30. #30
    I've never found GK tech that bad- even in DC. Compared to the strengths of other races they just aren't that ferocious. Oftentimes, you can do enough t1 damage to put the sm player on the back foot when the GKs come out, and continue fighting him when you can stop the GKs.

    Its relatively easy with Orks, as you can hit him real hard t1, then fall back to your banners when the GKs pop out, he can't beat your big shootaz in a banner farm, Grab a Nob Squad, and the Nobs + Big Mek + your 2 or 3 squads of big shoota (possibly combined with an auto reinforcing slugga capping squad for waaaaagh bonuses) should beat GK chappies easy even if they have some tac support. And to be fair, the only thing you are really going out of your way for is a Nob squad- and their whole purpose is dedicated melee counter.

    Eldar can hit SM so hard t1 with Rangers and Reapers, and harlequin kiss of death at t2 makes GK chappy imba not nearly enough to come back against the space elves.

    Necrons... flayed ones absolutely rape GKs... so much knockdown and superior numbers.

    you get the idea... honestly in my experience SM need their GK chappy combo to help them forget how screwed they are in almost every DC match up- except chaos.

  31. #31
    Conclusion: Don't play DC, play SS. Even if you're a newbie, you'll notice the significantly better balance in SS. It's that noticeable. People whine like hell about SS balance, but its balance is still undebatably better than anything that came before, including DC.

    The general problem with DC is the fast teching speed, allowing for imba build orders that require no skill, no map control, and no versatility/adaptability in counter-gameplay. It's not necessarily that GK+Ivan is too strong; they're beatable. It's that they come out too fast and too easily, with a focused BO.

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