[2.501] Hetzer First-Strike in Ambush Lock-Down

[YurdleTheTurtle]

Note: Updated the version tag, since this is still an on-going issue. Also edited first post since I now know how exactly it works.

This ability seems to be rather impractical. Currently, the Hetzer can use its camouflage, and can turn the chassis, but it cannot turn it's turret left or right (Note - The frontal main gun can be turned left or right to some degree, before the Hetzer is forced to turn the entire chasis)

Since it cannot turn it's main gun left or right at all, this means in camouflage, it can only fire within a very limited range. In most cases, the Hetzer will appear to be aiming at something but will never fire.

Now that this is a balance thread, here's some things to think about:
-Do you find this ability useful?
-Is it practical?
-Does it need a reworking?

I suggest allowing the Hetzer's main gun to turn left and right like it can out of camouflage. This will allow the Hetzer to fire on something while locked-down.

[X_X]

ive noticed the same, the ability needs a reworking/buff.

[cf_nz]

The ability does work. The narrow cone of fire and the time it takes to acquire a target may mean some targets can drive past without getting hit.

[Wischmopp]

It DOES need a rework.

In the real war, Hetzer was ment to replace the MArders, which were more or less an improvised stopgap solution to get more mobile AT-guns to the frontlines..... but I would take a Marder over a Hetzer anytime in this game against vehicles.

[Ballist1x]

but thats because the marder costs only 40 fuel and really low manpower whilst providing a firing range of 55? or 60 with a massive punch and super high penetration.

Compare this to the M10 cost for cost and yes the Marder wins every time as the pound for pound AT tank king here. Thats why its favoured over the Hetzer.

[ViiKumi]

Realism has no place in gameplay conversation.

[h0tpockets]

I only had luck with it once. I ambushed a sherman after it drove past me and it took almost half of its health off. Granted, a it may have got hit by a single pak once before my hetzer shot.

I am positive the hetzer crushed the sherman though with its initial ambush shot because I recall being amazed that it worked.

[BlackOmne]

The ability probably works best when the target is coming straight at the hetzer and at range. Keep in mind that the firing arc is a narrow cone, a very narrow cone. The cone is widest at long range.

Yurdle,
Perhaps your hetzer was too close to the spawn point. Also, I have to wonder if some other mechanic involved with spawn points was involved there. Probably the best places to put an ambushing hetzer is either just off the bend of a road pointing down a straight section because vehicle might very well come straight down the road for high speed; OR opposite a choke point at long range.

[Wischmopp]

The ability just sucks in its current state. Way to impractical. People even cannot remember when it did anything good for or bad against them, so this is proof enough.

[psykopatsak]

people never even try to use it, and no few even knows of it...

[BlackOmne]

Yeah, agreed on it being impractical. It's just too restrictive in its current state to see much use. At a minimum, the firing arc needs to probably double from about the 5deg that is currently is to about 10deg or more. Additionally, a limited auto-rotate (like the marders but not as good) might help - perhaps it could auto-rotate very slowly to line up a shot for a vehicle that comes to a stop just outside of its firing arc. When I first read about it, I thought the ability was going to be like PE version of the camo'd PAK, but the firing arc is just too narrow.

[Road-kill]

It does work, but to parrot the previous posters; unless the taret's coming straight towards the gun, odds are it's not going to be triggered. Which is a real shame.

[X_X]

Perhaps this should be moved to balance issues?

[Ballist1x]

well the obvious way to use it is as stated to cover a road, or a gap in some hedgerows. 95% of allied tanks cannot crush hedges, ergo you know they will have to take the gaps through them, so set yr hetzer to cover the gap and bam.. you have a hole in yr allied tank.

[War-Reborn]

I don't think it would a huge issue to let the thing wiggle it's turret while cloaked

[General McPoop]

I think you just give it a half-speed rotation speed (still cannot move forward or backward aka stuck in place) while cloaked so it can at least line up a shot.

[BlackOmne]

I don't think it would a huge issue to let the thing wiggle it's turret while cloaked

It doesn't have a turret.

Personally, I think the hetzer IS better than the Marder in the game. It can deal with infantry a lot better than the marder and with the APCR upgrade nearly rivals the Marder in tank killing power.

[Widowmaker1]

The target has to remain directly in front of the tank for a certain amount of time which means it only really fires if something is heading straight for it. Meaning you only ever hit front armour and the bonus is piss poor ..it doesn't really make a difference.
No real benefit in trying to use it. Tanks need to keep moving in COH unless it's the Marder or the Pe P4 where the bonus was worth it.

[Panzer Jager]

Ace651 take a chill pill; your post has been deleted.
Realism has no relevance to balance; to achieve balance, realism must be set a lower priority. Therefore, when discussing balance, do not bring realism into the equation, as to keep things simple. The game is not meant to be a realism simulator. It's meant to be symbolic of how units function. Something I've noticed in this thread: someone stated that the Hetzer was intended to be a replacement for the Marder. This is often done in the game; when people can access the Hetzer, they use it more than the Marder, as it is more durable, has anti-Infantry capabilities, while maintaining similar range with the Scope upgrade. So the 'realism' part is already there.
Moving to balance section as that's what this thread is becoming. I'll add tags.

While on the topic of Hetzers I do find the ambush to be quite useless, and very often the Machine-Gun turret wastes it on Infantry, but that is not the key issue with the Hetzer (in my opinion.) It's veterancy is extremely hard to earn, as it mirrors the requirements of the Jagdpanther. This means that Vet3 takes 102xp, which is harder to earn than Vet1 for Wehrmacht (in vCoH.) (Wehrmacht could technically earn Veterancy in vCoH, but now it's not possible. It was just EXTREMELY hard to get Vet, 10x harder than their counterparts per vet level.)

[FallschirmJaege]

While on the topic of Hetzers I do find the ambush to be quite useless, and very often the Machine-Gun turret wastes it on Infantry

So frustrating! I've given up on using the ambush ability until it receives some tweaks to make it viable. There has been several times where enemy vehicles drive right past, in front of the Hetzer and it does nothing! I think a half-speed ability to traverse its gun and perhaps itself is necessary to at least make it able to track a target, because as it is, the only success i've had is pointing straight down a road where the oncoming vehicle has no choice but to drive right down its throat, and even then, its hit or miss.

[YurdleTheTurtle]

Focusing on the camouflage ability...it's pretty much pointless if it can barely fire on anything to make use of the first strike. I think this can reworked by allowing the Hetzer to move its turret a little bit, as War-Reborn suggested.

It doesn't have a turret.

What he/she was referring to was how the Hetzer's main gun in-game can turn left and right to some degree, before being forced to turn the entire chasis. However, once in lock-down, it can't turn it's main gun at all, which is why the firing range is so narrow.

So my suggestion is to allow the Hetzer to move its little turret while in lock down. This would actually allow the Hetzer to hit things in front of it, but it is still limited to a relatively narrow range. Since I've never actually had a Hetzer use the first-strike bonus I can't comment on whether or not the bonuses need changes too - probably does not.

Anyone else agree?

[Widowmaker1]

Well, its not a 57 apc round lets put it that way. And you have to remember to unlock it otherwise its just sitting there frozen and visible.
One of the changes it also needs is to automatically 'unlock' and work as normal after the first strike bonus shot.
Bottom line is...everyone agrees it is a pointless ability at the moment and needs fixing...suggestions are good but as always relic's balance team make up their own 'tweaking'

[Road-kill]

Just been playing around with it, but it's really underpowered; the damage bonus doesn't seem to be much, if at all, and it can't rotate so after the first shot you need to manually select it and disable it, or the tanks just flank you had pew-pew at their leisure. Plus they don't even seem to do that much damage anyway, compared to marder 3s.

[kommodore]

Let it rotate in a marder-esque style at half speed and then automatically come out of lock down after the shot so you cant abuse it. Its 100% pen, 25% more acc, and 50% more damage, thats fine for a first strike.

[Falaris]

I don't think I've ever seen a hetzer fire at a vehicle in ambush mode. As such, it is certainly not useful, nor practical. Does it need a reworking? Possibly. The hetzer is plenty useful without it though, but for the ability to have meaning, it needs a bit of work.

[jackmccrack]

Toggle it, fire, toggle it again, fire. That is how you use it.

[Tenshi]

I have made heavy use of the invisibility, its very effective even if it is flawed as mentioned.

Having a tank that can turn invisible, has good AT and good AI has more benefit implications than just "it can shoot at stuff".

[YurdleTheTurtle]

@jackmccrack: That's still extremely impractical. Even when the Hetzer is aiming at a target, it might not fire at all.

@Tenshi: True, but then what's the point of an ambush ability? Why not just make it a normal cloak ability with no other benefits?

What I mean is, we either make the ability practical/usable so it can be used as intended (or at least, actually used in the first place), or we rework it into something else.

[Nintendochamp]

In my opinion, it sounds like a bug to me. If the hetzer is facing its target and is in ambush, it should fire. Now if its just the firing cone thats too narrow, perhaps some screenshots of the situation would help illustrate it better. I can't say whether it should be widened without being shown the firing cone when in ambush.

[X_X]

There is a little thread over at GR about the viability of the Hetzer. While not the most constructive thread on earth it exists.

http://www.gamereplays.org/community...owtopic=475938