Razorback vs. Wartrukk

[JaxGaret]

The other thread on the Razorback's upgrade got me to look at a strict comparison of the Razorback and the Wartrukk. Here goes:

Base Razorback cost: 240/40
Base Wartrukk cost: 200/30
Razorback w/RP cost: 255/55
Wartrukk w/RP cost: 250/55

So a base Razorback is a little more expensive. After the upgrade they cost the same.

Here's how they differ in terms of combat capability:

Base Razorback: 450 HP + Speed 8
Base Wartrukk: 400 HP + Speed 9
Razorback w/RP: 700 HP + Speed 10
Wartrukk w/RP: 700 HP + Speed 9

The Wartrukk also accelerates quite a bit more quickly (8 vs. 3.43), but decelerates more slowly (4 vs. 6.29).

The Wartrukk has a keen sense radius (detects infiltrated units) at a range of 30. The Razorback has the generic range of 5 for that. They both have normal sight radius of 40.

The Razorback has a DPS of 45. The Wartrukk has a DPS of 23. Their DPS degradation profiles vs. cmndr/hvyinf/vehicle are the same.


So, in essence, the upgraded Razorback gets twice the DPS and is slightly faster in exchange for the upgraded Wartrukk getting a keen sense radius of 30. (Also, the Wartrukk cannot crush cover. The Razorback can, correct?)

Before the upgrade, it's a little more complicated, but the comparison is similar.

[thrillskr]

I wouldnt compare these two, as they do not perform same role in their respective armies. Razorback is a fire-support (not a very good one, but still...), damage sink (especially while in smoke) and ferry to make up for SM mobility issues. Ork trukk on the other hand, is NOT a damage sink (since they dont need one that early still having advantage over sm kept from T1), and its not there for fire support (Youve got shootas with big shootas for that, dont You?), its there to detect and hide behind lots and lots of greenskins and reinforce them on the go (and ferry them sometimes so You can pop out 2 slugga squads right next to tacticals and not get them shot first). Also You can harass with it very early since its so cheap enemy wont have any AV to bash it.
And i do agree with You on that whole crushing cover issue, its rather unfair for trukk to be only vehicle that cannot do that.

{theorycrafting} Now, on the other note i was thinking that making trukk better (some big guns upgrade maybe?) would help Orks in T2 since lots of Ork players complain about it being terrible, but thats not related to trukk vs razor issue here...

[JaxGaret]

while in smoke

I left that out, sorry. Razorbacks get a Smoke Launcher too.

They may have different roles, but their cost and capability profile are very similar.

[Vertrucio]

Part of the cost for the wartrukk is that other ork units reinforce for a relatively low cost, but they take more losses. So, there is real power in allowing Ork units to reinforce in the field.

[Ceorl]

The biggest difference is the Razor's DPS. While the Wartruk is a nice addition to the horde, the Razor can gut many opposing units by itself (of course assuming no AV around). As it stands, I feel many SM players treat the Razor like those SM land speeders from DOW1. A quick push to tech two and you, ideally, have a good AI unit before any AV can hit the field.

With regards to the other thread, the cost stats here, and differing functions, seem to beg the question whether or not the two units, upgraded, should cost the same.

[Troubleshooter]

Cost is not a function of external balance though!!!

Cost is an internal balance mechanic. Why would a tier 3 tank cost less than a tier 1 infantry unit except as an acknowledgment of its utility and the concepts of late game economics.

The reason the Ork truk costs so much upgraded is that the ork player is almost expected to be running hot on econ and popcap by the time its out there, thus its cost is reflective of that fact - its not supposed to be comparable to the RB, it serves a different army with different dynamics and pacing.

Just because two units look like they are mirrors doesn't make it true. See the warriors vs. Banshee thread for more of this logic. They are not the same unit, they fill different roles, and have different profiles because they belong to different factions with dissimilar supporting units and features - cost is not an external metric!!!

[Ceorl]

Cost is not a function of external balance though!!!

No one here views cost as a function of external balance and no one in this thread is making a direct comparison between both units for balance purposes. This thread is just a comparison between the two. My comment, an ideal musing, is that should two units with different purposes in different armies with different gameplay styles cost the same? I have no idea.

[JaxGaret]

Troubleshooter, while I agree 100% with you on Warriors vs. Banshees, as they are completely different types of units, surely you see how closely a Razorback and Wartrukk mirror each other in a purely statistical sense?

I understand your point on external balance. Orks are supposed to win T1, so they're supposed to have more econ when they hit T2, thus their T2 units are more expensive. Note that I didn't make any cost analysis whatsoever in the OP - I just stated facts.

I do think however that the lopsidedness of the Wartrukk vs. Razorback could be alleviated slightly. Orks are widely acknowledged to be UP, and this is one place where the balance can be fixed. If their Wartrukks were made to be a little more cost-efficient (not even up to RB levels), Orks would see a lot of gain from that, since the Wartrukk can and should be integral to their fighting style.

[Troubleshooter]

Jax, thats cool by me... I just want to nip the unit vs. unit cost analysis as a means to getting blance right.

I don't see many wartruks, so I presume that they need something of a buff.

[thrillskr]

Or, just maybe, Ork players dont like to rely on them, while many SM players learned to include them into their builds quite well. I mean lets be honest, apart from harassing early T2 when theres no AV and no strong units, Razor isnt much of a fighting vehicle. When walkers, falcons, powerful AV (be it in forms of missile tacs, zoes or even brightlances) and T3 hits the field they become borderline useless in combat roles, but they are still very useful as ferries, reinforcement points and RB's ability to make marines a lot tougher in a ranged fight.

[Shakrith]

I find that Razorbacks are highly useful. If you go and attack a VP, you can't really advance to take the surrounding territory without having a transport vehicle, at least as SM, as you don't have enough units in any one place to fend off an enemy counterattack.

I've only just started using Razorbacks, but I find that having one with my army means that I can take a VP then take the power points nearby and help my allies if they're fighting anywhere on that side of the map, and I'm still able to jump in and zoom back down to attempt to defend anywhere that's particularly important.

They're also useful in combat if the enemy doesn't have much AV, like in a game I recently had vs many, many shoota boyz; your marines can even use them as heavy cover, and that was a pretty much pure win situation; two squads of tacs and a razorback took down five of shoota boyz without casualties, using the Razorback as cover vs small arms.

[Dux]

The Wartrukk advantage is its cheap initial cost. You can get it out on the field faster than any other vehicle in the game, which gives it a great deal of utility as a shock unit -- a unit that can't be countered because the opponent hasn't built any counters yet (in this case, AV). You don't need to purchase the armor upgrade for the Wartrukk at this point; the fact that it has vehicle armor at all will be enough to deter an enemy with no anti-vehicle capability. The upgrade allows you to scale the Wartrukk to make it tougher when counters do start arriving later, if you want; you may decide to save your power for faster teching to Tier 3 and Nobs.

The Wartrukk is fine as-is. If anything the Razorback could use a slight nerf to 600 HP/9 speed after its upgrade, but I don't really think it's a big deal either way.

[MinoSLO]

How is the wartrukk a shock vehicle. Its not scary at all to me. I even dare to chase it around with slugas. You wont see me doing that with a RB. It may have vehicle armor, but its damage is too low to be of any shock to anyone except pre buff warp spiders.

[iko]

Have the upgrade increase it's damage to that of the Razorback and give heavy crush aswell as additional HP.

Voila, the Wartrukk no longer sucks.

[Gunbuster]

Make the truck able to crush the covers, that way it can do his job decently and it is fine.
But since it can't do anything right atm it have to have this feature out of the box imo, not once upgraded, or in that case make the nob leaders cost less power by a lot.

[JaxGaret]

IMO Wartrukks are not meant to be early-T2 shock units; Orks already are supposed to win T1, there's no reason for them to have an early vehicle shock for T2.

The Wartrukk's primary purpose is to get slow Orks into position at an advanced rate, and to reinforce them once they get there. Thus their low DPS is fine; but they could use some type of buff, be it more HP, being able to crush cover, a speed boost to match the RB, or any or all of the above.

I would suggest increasing the Wartrukk's base speed to 10 and giving it the ability to crush cover. Seems good both from a fluff and crunch perspective, and would give them a little more oomph without unbalancing anything.

[Gunbuster]

If the game is supposed to be balanced, there is no reason one army should win against another in any tier.

[mlai]

If the game is supposed to be balanced, there is no reason one army should win against another in any tier.

That applies for conventional RTS games, but may not apply to DOW2. The individual squads level up irrespective of tech, later units do not always replace earlier units (Predators and Kommandos, for example), and there's no base building.

[Frigidair44]

Have the upgrade increase it's damage to that of the Razorback and give heavy crush aswell as additional HP.

Voila, the Wartrukk no longer sucks.

While I love the idea of the Orks having their own razorback esque unit, I'm not sure if this is the route we should go. I do think either the base damage or after the upgrade the Truk should do more damage then a measily 23. They don't even kill scouts that well.

For that reason, I don't field Truks unless SM go heavy infiltrated or I have to deal with Lictor or Kommando Nob. Thats it. A good fix would be to up the damage to something like 34. Not quite a Razorback, but its presence won't be ignored by other races.

[Waffls112]

THe Wartrukk can get be made 10 seconds quicker, dont know if that counts for anything

[Kratos]

What about we give the wartrukk a small healing aura of +2 regeneaton per second. It would be loved by ork players! :-)

[MinoSLO]

Giving it something different, other than making it a complete RB copy is a great way to start.

[Ruzdreg]

What would make me use them more than just the 1 out of 10 games would be to do the following:


1. Give them a small crushing ability. I'm not talking about having them knock down buildings or anything like that but something to crush small cover that those pesky Eldar platforms tend to hide behind so I can drive up to them and bump them!!! (Then have my Boyz inside the Trukk jump out onto them)
I always struggle with platforms in lane like maps (Argus desert) since Stikkbomas don't have enough range and Storm boys are highly expesive especially since you have to get their added jump pack bonus to make them not be picked out before jumping.


2. I once heard that when a transporting vehicle is destroyed it'll also total destroy the passengers. Make it so the Ork trukk doesn't kill off the passengers when it gets destroyed but slightly harm them somewhat instead. That way we may use them to transport infantry to the front line which is what Ork vehicles are all about.
Currently the thought of encountering a missile launcher holding tactical marine with my War trukk transporting is enougth to make me not use it for transporting. A slight nudge from their missile to even the exhaust pipe is enougth for the trukk to explode into fireworks and have all the boyz inside sent to hell!
If Chaos or Daemon races get added to the game, you'll probably get to be able to summon possesed Orks who were the unlucky ones who got lost in the warp when their Trukk exploded after a missile struck one of the wing mirrors.




Basically in short:
1. Give it crushing for small object only (razor wire / bushes / small mounds of rock)

2. Not have the infantry inside die when the Trukk blows up - heck, you can even give it the karrren ability from the TT game that makes it go out of control but leave my Boyz with at least 60% HP.




However, if Storm boyz become cheaper then the above can be ignored....well actually I like the idea of number 2 so I'll say have that if not anything else.

[MinoSLO]

I think getting zero damage on the infantry inside would make it a decent transport. By the way, missiles hitting wing mirrors is the most common way to get killed. It is way more lethal having to deal with the police for having no mirrors that anything else, save for maybe getting shot in the balls with the aforementioned missile. Since orks dont have balls in the material sense, we can safely say it is the most common way to get killed as an ork. Dosent stop the stupid huligans from using it tho .

[JaxGaret]

Having troops being ferried by the Wartrukk not insta-die when the Trukk gets destroyed is a great idea, but I'm not sure if that wouldn't require a prohibitive amount of extra coding on Relic's part to implement.

In other words, it might be something they can put in easily, or it might not be.

But yeah, that would be awesome, and fits the unit perfectly from a flavor standpoint.