Great work @eliw00d
Great work @eliw00d
I'm sorry to report that we were not able to reach our goal of a recorded session last weekend, there were some unforeseen circumstances that prevented us from doing so. However, in the meantime, we have been working hard to get as much done as possible and are still on target. We'll just have to prepare better for the next time. I won't give a date or time because I don't want to set us up for failure again. But, be assured, the mod is very much alive and well.
I'd like to welcome our newest modeler, leadxchange, to the team. He is actually someone I know IRL, so he'll be helping us out quite a bit. You can check out his current work here.
We are still looking for a texture artist. We have a lot of model mixes and other fun projects, so if you're interested please send me a PM.
This looks like an amasing proyect, I checked your modsite and the ideas are extraordinaries. I am certanly keeping an eye on this.
Best of lucks!
So, today I wanted to talk a little bit about our ammo system. Since this is something entirely new for Company of Heroes, many of you might be worried that it is too realistic. Anyone familiar with the Close Combat series will feel right at home with it, though.
Let's go over the American Rifle Squad. Each Rifle Squad in a Rifle Platoon has 12 men, which we further divide into "teams" of 6 men. Of those 12 men, 11 carry the M1 Garand and the 12th carries the M1918 BAR.
Each rifleman carries between 80 to 128 rounds of ammunition, or 10 to 16 clips. The automatic rifleman and his assistant carry a total of 640 rounds of ammunition, or 32 magazines. That means the squad as a whole has between 880 to 1408 rounds of rifle and 640 rounds of automatic rifle ammunition.
So, as you can see, a typical Rifle Squad has plenty of ammunition to last them quite a while. It is more likely for the squad to be annihilated than for it to run out of ammo.
Now let's go over an American M4A3. The tank carries 97 rounds of assorted 75mm ammo (HE, AP, smoke, etc), 300 rounds of .50 ammo, 4750 rounds of .30 ammo and 12 rounds for its smoke dischargers (different from the smoke rounds mentioned above). That is quite a lot of ammo!
So, fear not! Our ammo system will bring a new dimension of realism, where your units are no longer infinite in use and you must choose wisely how to make the best of them. There will be other things to take into account as well, such as morale and fatigue, but those are for another update.
Nice!How exactly will the ammo system work?
"Fire and maneuver.That's the name of the game."
What better way to show off what a T/O&E (Table of Organization & Equipment) means than to illustrate it with a diagram!
The following diagram shows what a Rifle Company in a Modern US Stryker Brigade is like. Obviously this company does not exist in our game, but it's a good indication of what the force organizations will be like. You can see the roles and ranks of every individual, along with the vehicles.
The amount of ammunition remaining in your squad is displayed on screen, similar to the Close Combat series. Or, if you're unfamiliar with that series, it's similar to a FPS.Originally Posted by Soldier13
I take it that is only available to dx9 users? aka you are using the overlay that corsix made?
also is it clips remaining or actual rounds?
Keeping track of magazines and belts would over complicate the display, since it's a pool of ammunition for the entire team, not just one individual. Also if you select more than one unit it shows the combined totals.
Keeping track of magazines is a bit gamey, anyways. You're not going to throw away a perfectly good magazine in the field, you would have a bag or pouch to drop them in to be reloaded later. Clips are a bit different, as they are very cheap to mass produce and are usually discarded.Originally Posted by Sturmhaubitze
Each man in a squad was assigned a specific number of rounds, so it only makes sense that we track it in that manner. Also, whenever your squad receives casualties, you lose their share of the pool. This prevents instances where a 6-man element is reduced to a 1-man element, but still retains all their ammo.
so this will appear where, just over the squad icon in the selection bar?
Yes, you can retreat units offmap, where they will resupply and after a period of time can be brought back onto the field. However, if they are at a certain strength, say 1 out of 6 men, they will be considered understrength and can not be called back into the fight.Originally Posted by BigJake
The most likely units to run out of ammo quickly will be mortars and HMGs, since the amount of ammo they can carry and the amount of ammo they expend is highly disproportionate. You shouldn't have trouble with standard units such as Rifle Squads or Tanks.
Last edited by eliw00d; 17th Feb 10 at 5:29 AM.
Using our in-game and website graphics, I threw together an illustrated T/O&E for a US Armored Rifle Company.
Armored Rifle Platoon (x3)
Rifle Squads (x2)
Light Machine-gun Squad
Anti-tank Squads (x3)
Here's an example of a support option, which could be attached to your company on a temporary basis.
Tank Destroyer Platoon w/ M10 Wolverine
Tank Destroyer Sections with Security Teams attached (x2)
A single Armored Rifle Platoon has five half-tracks. FIVE. Each one has an M2HB on top that can be used when troops are in the hold. On top of that, each squad in the platoon is armed with a bazooka. This is a very heavily armed platoon, folks.
Bearing this in mind, many players who often turned to Germany before may not do so now. As in my case, I've actually taken a liking for the Americans in our mod because of the new and unique options that COH has never seen for them. I've always been a German player when it has come to World War II games.
The Germans had difficulty mass-producing the RPzB 54 Panzerschreck, such that one of their proposed structures for a Panzergrenadier platoon in late '43 had to be scrapped. Their plans on giving each squad a single Panzerschreck turned out to be unfeasible. Instead they issued a few to some companies, so that they could form one or two Panzerschreck teams as needed. Panzerfausts became the most common infantry anti-tank weapon instead.
Meanwhile the Americans and British had no problem producing Bazookas and PIATs respectively. Units that were never expected to fight tanks still received them if they might have to defend themselves against enemy vehicles. As such, even machine-gun and mortar platoons had one or two of these weapons.
Heck, even the Division's Engineers had bazookas.
Engineer Combat Platoon
Operating Squad (x3)
Last edited by Sturmhaubitze; 17th Feb 10 at 1:35 PM.
How will you use moral in a game where you control when they retreat? or have I misunderstood. and if you can make your men retreat will they be nearly impossible to hit like in vCoH?
Infantry that suffer too many casualties might run if suppressed or pinned. Depends on the specific unit, since some are more motivated than others. Sending poorly motivated troops into a heavy firefight will result in a lot of retreating troops.
Actually, in Fortress Europe - much like Close Combat - there will be instances where you do not have control over that. An example of this is when your tank crew bails, either due to a penetrating hit that inflicts casualties or because they've otherwise lost their nerve.Originally Posted by BigJake
There will be some methods of countering the mental state of the men under your care, such as being within the vicinity of officers or supporting units.
Think of it as simply another way in which you lose units, but instead of to bullets or explosions, it's to battlefield stress. Although we are implementing many realistic features, we still hold gameplay at a high level, so it will never impede you from having fun. To be honest, the artillery spam of vCOH will be much more frustrating than morale, especially considering artillery can only be used line-of-sight with special observer units.
Keep in mind that this is a partial - or even total - conversion of Company of Heroes. Everything you know is now wrong. Or something.
And here's the German counterpart to the US Armored Rifle Company, the gepanzerte Panzergrenadierkompanie.
gepanzerter Panzergrendierzug (x3) - "Armoured Mechanized Infantry Platoon"
Zugtrupp - "Platoon Command Team"
Gruppe - "Squad"
gepanzerter schwerer Panzergrenadierzug - "Armoured Heavy Platoon"
Zugtrupp - "Platoon Command Team"
schwere Maschinengewehrgruppe (x2) - "Heavy Machine-gun Squad"
Granatwerfergruppe - "Mortar Squad"
Kanonegruppe - "Cannon Squad"
A lot of firepower in one company. In addition to the squad-level machine-guns, the 'Heavy' platoon provides additional machine-guns, mortars, and 75mm guns on half-tracks. Though it lacks anti-tank firepower, with only the optional Panzerfausts filling that gap, and occasional HEAT rounds fired from the Sd Kfz 251/9 half-tracks in the Cannon Squad. Additional support, like anti-tank gun platoons and Panzers, help in that capacity.
Here's some more samples, these ones have the NATO military symbols for each platoon. These symbols are used on some of our icons to differentiate different platoons. We're using a simplified interpretation of them, to make it easier for players to remember. A full guide on them will follow in a future post.
Here's the structure for a Panzer platoon. A Panzerkompanie can have up to 4 of these.
Panzerzug (Panzer IV H) - "Tank Platoon"
Befehlspanzer - "Command Tank"
Panzergruppe (x2) - "Tank Section"
The Panzerabteilung (Battalion), which has 3 Panzerkompanies, also has the following platoons. These can be taken as support options by a Panzerkompanie.
Erkunder-und Pionierzug - "Scout and Pioneer Platoon"
Zugtrupp - "Platoon Command Team"
Erkundertrupp (x3) - "Scout Team"
Pioniergruppe (x3) - "Pioneer Squad"
The scouts can use the BMW R/75 motorcycle, Kettenkrad, or Kübelwagen as transports, instead of the Schwimmwagen. The pioneers can use an Opel Maultier or Sd Kfz 251/7 as transports, instead of the Opel Blitz.
Flugabwehrzug, Panzerabteilung - "Anti-aircraft Platoon, Tank Battalion"
Zugtrupp - "Platoon Command Team"
The platoon can also be equipped with the Ostwind, Flakpanzer 38t, Möbelwagen, or Sd Kfz 7/1, instead of the Wirbelwind.
It's too bad you guys are doing this on CoH. Men of War is a much better platform for this kind of mod IMO.
However; you might get me to reinstall CoH if you actually finish this.
Actually, I'd kind of like to make a men of war version.
It's been suggested before, but it won't happen for a number of reasons. A lot of work has been put into Fortress Europe already, and switching at this point would be a major setback. Also, I really don't consider vanilla Men of War to be very realistic, as a lot of people say.
I like Men of War, but Company of Heroes has a special place for me. Sure, there are engine limitations, but it is definitely the more polished game. Also, there are things you can't do in Men of War that you can in Company of Heroes, and vice versa.
Besides, we have added or will add so many new and unique features to Fortress Europe that any fan of Men of War will fit right in. We'll finish it for sure, but mods like this take a while to build, with literally thousands and thousands of RGD files.
I wish you luck in bringing persistence to Men of War, I can't imagine how it would be done in a game like that. Also, good to see you around these parts, I finally got around to trying out GSM and it's pretty good so far.
I always got the impression the Tiger and other heavy tanks were prone to malfunctioning or breaking in the field, will this be implemented in Fortress Europe?
for instance a chance to get engine damage or even a broken tread at any given time.
Definitely! This is something we have planned on doing for a long time, and have partially implemented at the moment. Heavy and Super Heavy Tanks (and Tank Destroyers) will have a chance to break down on the field, and all vehicles will have a chance to bog down in rough terrain (such as water). If the break down is severe enough, the crew will bail as their vehicle has become immobilized (aka sitting duck). Bog downs, however, will result in only temporary immobility.
Also, as far as break downs are concerned, I have never heard of the tracks or treads being a part of that, only the engine. Other than being damaged by enemy fire, the only other case I can think of related to tracks or treads is running over barbed wire.
I guess that means mine detectors and scouts are a must for a player whos loves their armor, it will be very predictable where a player will send their tanks
Just putting the last finishing touches on how our tank/anti-tank ammunition system works.
Right now most guns have an AP / HE option, which switches between their standard anti-tank round (Usually APCBC or HEAT) and a High Explosive round. Additionally some vehicles/guns have extra ammunition types, like Smoke or special AT rounds like HVAP and APDS. Switching takes a few seconds as the current round is removed and replaced with a new type, and all subsequent reloads are of that new type.
Firing Smoke rounds from the Sherman's 75mm is actually quite useful, as you can blind the enemy and give yourself time to flank enemy tanks. Plus the Smoke shells create their clouds using White Phosphorous, which can burn enemy troops at the point of impact. It's a poor alternative to HE, but better than nothing, and will prevent you from firing them directly at your own troops. I am trying to see if vehicles hit directly by it can be temporarily stunned by the burning cloud. In the meantime, the smoke shell can actually penetrate and damage light armour and unarmoured vehicles, considering it's still a hunk of metal flying at 800m/sec.
The standard M3 75mm fires an HE shell with nearly twice the high explosive as the M1 76mm, as well as Smoke, which gives players a reason to continue using the older gun. Sure the M1 76mm is far better at penetrating tanks, but is a lot weaker against soft targets, and lacks the Smoke option.
In terms of special AT rounds, the HVAP and APDS options give quite a bit of extra punch to some Allied guns. The OQF 17 Pounder, with APDS, is a beast of a gun that can slice through even the King Tiger most of the time. M1 76mm and M7 3" guns make short work of Tigers and Panthers when firing HVAP. These rounds are in limited supply though, so you need to choose carefully when to use them.
King Tigers will finally be true Kings of the battlefield. Their excellent frontal armor can take quite the punishment unless specialty rounds are used, in which case Allied players will have to use feints and ambushes or flank to exploit their weaker side and rear armor. The front armor is nearly impenetrable, even at point blank range for some guns, making it a steel beast. To offset this, each tank costs a hefty amount of points, so for every King Tiger purchased you will have fewer points to spend on support options such as infantry or artillery.
Yes, engineers and scouts will be much more valuable than currently represented because they have true-to-life roles. Engineers will be able to clear all manner of obstacles to make a path for your armor, and scouts will be able to track enemy movement so that your forces will have the intelligence they need to make their attacks.
Most engineers are also combat trained, or specialists, so they will not only be able to fulfill their role as engineers, but also as light infantry. However, due to the nature of their work, scouts are lightly armed and should not be used as offensive tools. Their weapons are meant for self-defense, and their transportation methods are enough to get them around and do not protect them from most forms of enemy fire.
First post was updated to accomodate a more current description of the mod, as the original post is extremely outdated.
Last edited by eliw00d; 24th Feb 10 at 1:34 PM.
Its very nice you keep us posted about the progress and the new features of your mod, I often check it because I enjoy your work and idea, very realistic, I hope it comes true soon!
Thanks and good work! ^^
Thanks for the support! I'd like to think we can manage an alpha release in Q2 or Q3 of this year, but we still have so much work to do.
For our first release, we will be concentrating on the Western Front during the mid-1944 period. There will be 8 playable nations, 7 of which are Allied Powers and 1 of which is an Axis Power. A first for Company of Heroes.
Just out of curiosity why did you come to this decision?There will be 8 playable nations, 7 of which are Allied Powers and 1 of which is an Axis Power.
You sound disappointed? The reason for the above is that we are properly representing the participants of the Normandy theater. If you're skeptical about the Allies outnumbering the Axis, keep in mind that Germany by itself has around 24 companies to choose from, whereas the Allies as a whole number somewhere in the low to mid 30's.
Last edited by eliw00d; 26th Feb 10 at 5:30 AM.
nah I'm not disappointed at all, the germans have always been my favorite faction to play as and was just hoping they would get the same attention the other factions get.
edit: but I'm sure you will give all factions a fair go
also, will there be any way of knowing an enemies size, exp or contents of their company before playing them?
There is a list of companies in our forums. It's not a complete list, so I will update it when I get home, but it should give you an idea of what Germany will have. My favorite nation has always been Germany as well, and they will have more than enough flavor to make us happy.
However, all playable nations will be given their fair share, and will have plenty of unique options to make them interesting. I've already revealed one of the 7 in the past, which was Canada. You can find their list of companies in our forums as well.
There is currently no way of knowing the composition of an enemy's forces before a battle, but that is what recon is for during a battle. There are some options we can explore for before the battle, but we'll need to discuss that internally and see if anything would fit into context.
Also, as a side note, everybody gets the same number of points to spend on their company. Nobody gets more, nobody gets less. Although some units are cheaper than others, and one company might seem to be larger than another, there are plenty of soft and hard counters to balance it all out.
For example, a player with an American Rifle Company that has put heavy emphasis on infantry will suffer against a player with a German Panzerkompanie that has put a heavy emphasis on armour and armoured support. You have to find the right balance of combined arms, as leaning too heavily on one side or the other will only do you harm.
Last edited by eliw00d; 26th Feb 10 at 7:42 AM.
About the muntions, i dont tottally agree with the fact that you need to retreat ure units off-field why not instead send trucks into the field, wich will enable the enemy to destroy the supply line of the enemy.
I take it you play Men of War?
Think of offmap as your rear lines, where you have your Headquarters, your logistical, supply and reserve forces. This is where your wounded would be taken to, and where your ammunition would be. If all of this was in the front line, it would not be safe. The concept of destroying an enemy's supply lines is not in the front lines, but by bombing or flanking them.
Men of War has limited ammunition and ammo trucks to be called in, but that is not even slightly realistic. Keep in mind also, that when retreating units offmap, they don't magically replace casualties or heal. For example, if you retreat a Rifle Squad that has 4 out of 12 men, you will not be able to call it back in as it is understrength.
I'm not at home, so the numbers may be off because I am trying to go by memory, but here is the breakdown of companies:
Allies have ~34 to Germany's ~24 companies.
are the other 4 factions unannounced or unknown?
Will flak 88's and 105's be present in game or will all support be offmap?
How will constructing defenses be implemented, if at all?
Unfortunately New Zealand only fought in North Africa and Italy, and the focus of our mod is from the D-Day landings onwards to the Fall of Berlin, so a different theater of the war.
For the company counts, the Germans fielded a surprising number of variations, mostly due to having three service branches and a large number of vehicle variants. Here's a breakdown from memory, along with service branch:
(Heer) Grenadierkompanie - Infantry
(Heer) Volksgrenadierkompanie - Infantry
(Luftwaffe) Luftwaffe Jägerkompanie - Light Infantry, Luftwaffe reserve personnel
(Luftwaffe) Fallschirmjägerkompanie - Light Infantry, Parachute personnel
(Heer or SS) Panzergrenadierkompanie - Motorized Infantry
(Heer or SS) gepanzerte Panzergrenadierkompanie - Armoured Infantry
(Heer) Pionierkompanie - Engineers
(Heer or SS) Panzerpionierkompanie - Motorized Engineers
(Heer or SS) gepanzerte Panzerpionierkompanie - Armoured Engineers
(Heer or SS) Aufklärungsschwadron - Motorized Infantry, Recon Battalion
(Heer or SS) gepanzerte Aufklärungsschwadron - Armoured Infantry, Recon Battalion
(Heer or SS) Panzerkompanie, Panzer IV H
(Heer or SS) Panzerkompanie, Panther A
(Heer or SS) Panzerkompanie, StuG III G
(Heer or SS) Panzerkompanie, StuG IV
(Heer or SS) schwere Panzerkompanie, Tiger I E
(Heer or SS) schwere Panzerkompanie, Tiger II
(Heer or SS) Panzerspähkompanie - Armoured Cars
(Heer or SS) Panzerspähkompanie 'A' - SdKfz 234/2
(Heer or SS) Panzerspähkompanie 'B' - Panzer II Luchs or Aufklärer 38t
(Heer or SS) Panzerspähkompanie 'C' - SdKfz 250/9
(Heer or SS) Panzerspähkompanie 'D' - SdKfz 234/1
The vast number of tank and armoured car models bloat the list, as does the variations on whether a company was motorized or mechanized.
Just a question, when there are many companys and so, will you give every company another skin, or will you keep the number of them low to garantie better performance?
The CC-esque mechanics certainly intrigue me. Best of luck to the team for this project
Used to think that Fortress Europe was Sturmhaubitze's personal, endless tinkering mod, good to know that there's a whole team behind those ambitious goals.
One step closer to the end of the decadent Eldar race.
[...] the reason we don’t like DRM solutions is because they punish the innocent and they have to jump through all these hoops. We don’t want to do that [...]
Lots of replies! Excellent.
The other factions were just unannounced to keep you guessing. Akranadas guessed half of them.
It depends on the type of 105mm you are referring to, but FlaK36s will definitely be on map as they were used against tanks. The M4A3(105) will be on map, as they were used as direct fire support rather than indirect artillery.
Constructing defenses will take place at the beginning of a battle during an initial setup phase. Players will spend points on cheap defenses such as sandbags, barbed wire, mines, etc. These are then placed by engineers.
We don't have a dedicated skinner, but we have some surprises for variation. We would like to avoid the mess of other mods in terms of performance so that everyone can play, but due to the scope of our mod in terms of files there still might be a hit to performance on 32-bit systems.
I am a long-time fan and player of the Close Combat series, and so from the start I had wanted to bring the aspects and features they possess to Company of Heroes in a way. Fortunately, most of them mesh very well with what Sturmhaubitze wanted to do with Fortress Europe originally, so we've agreed on a lot of points.
I'd might as well have re-named my mod Duke Nukem Forever. As soon as I'd uncovered some great new way to do something, I'd start over. Partnering with eliwood was the best decision.Originally Posted by sporty
now those systems sound great, this mod seems to be turning out to be very interesting indeed!
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