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SM First Impressions

  1. #51
    Senior Member Chris's Avatar
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    Sep 2004
    South Wales
    If by "over rely" you mean "build a unit that is supposed to be the back-bone of your infantry force" then yes. Sweet Jesus I am raging so hard right now I don't even have the words. I want to punch a fucking camel.

    100/10 Stefan, you son of a bitch.
    Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs

  2. #52
    Two main comments:

    1) SM lose in melee far too easily. HT+hormogaunts, for example, do ridiculously against SM melee, even mid/late game.
    2) Heavy Bolters can still be wtf-countered, only now they cost power to make and so are easier to counter, since the enemy will decidedly have nades, or, in particular raveners. (Seriously, how are setup weapons supposed to cope with Raveners aside from living in buildings?)

    Wish I could say that I'm happy with these changes, but even coming into the beta with low expectations I'm rather miffed right now.

    Last edited by General_II; 2nd Jul 09 at 5:55 PM.

  3. #53
    camel hater =(

    Im just loving seeing people actually say things negative after playing the beta rather than seeing all the over optimism...

    still im shocked that scouts are so good. werent they fine to begin with? curse you stefan!
    Acceptance- Seeing how hopefully shitty you are and moving on.

  4. #54
    Your Friendly Dictator Deionarra's Avatar
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    Aug 2005
    Little England
    I may be wrong, but i am thinking that many people overly relied on tacs and are now feeling the repercussion...
    You are wrong I'm afraid. The main build I was using with SM in the retail was already a heavy T1 build with multiple scouts and only a single Tac squad. Not the build most people use I know but it worked a lot better then than it does now despite that supposedly being the new play style.

    Also, something else I find affecting SM is the reduction to the healing rate at HQs. SM rely on healing more than the other races because they need to keep their expensive troops alive.

    Here's two 1v1 games, the first is me playing as SM against an inexperienced player and almost losing and the other is against Hirmetrium playing SM after he'd been busy beating some of the Relic folk.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Deionarra; 2nd Jul 09 at 5:59 PM.
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  5. Child's Play Donor Dawn of War Senior Member  #55
    Calculating Maktaka's Avatar
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    Apr 2005
    in the City
    Uh, kite the Hormagaunts?
    Why? These aren't Banshees or Carnifexes or some unit that should actually be hurting vehicles, these are Hormagaunts, a 300 req capper with (theoretically) no AV capabilities, destroying an upgraded Razorback, an anti-infantry vehicle.

    Really, the other races seem to handle pretty well, but SM? Good lord do they stink. Not sure what happened there.

  6. #56
    well look at it this way
    Flamers are now worth hiding from
    i would much rather hav a T1 plasma gun for tacs and moving flamers over to scouts but it works. Very rape against CC squads :]
    I think the thing that is raping SM in melee is that they r hvy infantry now and most melee weapons were changed to power weapons

  7. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #57
    Talented Musician Buguba's Avatar
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    Apr 2006
    Mount of Olives
    Dear god, I hate stefan.

    I just played a 2v2. We were all SM except my Eldar ally, who dropped at the start. I decided to keep playing though to test out SM.

    Scouts are AMAZING. Tacs and ASM SUCK. Seriously, scout spam ftw. Throw in a couple HBs and you're good. You can pretty much win the game in T1 now, and you don't even have to worry about getting AV if you can control their power.

    There's honestly no point to Tacs and ASMs. Too expensive for cost, and scouts do everything they do BETTER. Need to kill a set-up team? Infiltrate + shotties. Need to kill melee units? Shotties. Need to kill units behind cover? Grenades. Need to detect? Sarge. Need to kill commander? Infiltrate + shotties.

    Basically, infiltration, grenades, and shotguns solve all your problems with the exception of vehicles. Like I said though, if you can control power in T1, you don't even have to worry about vehicles. :/

    Other impressions:

    - I like flamers. They're definitely worth getting, assuming you don't scout spam to victory.

    - HBs are awesome. HBs + scouts pretty much counters anything your opponent throws at you. Vengance rounds are great vs. vehicles, so you even have that covered.

    - Megaman blaster is ridiculous. My enemy TM brought my Tac squad to 1 man with only 4 shots, and that was with my Tac squad behind heavy cover.

    -AI seems pretty good now. I don't know how good my other opponent was, but the AI in my game actually held my opponent pretty well for the first half of the match. However, human is always >>> to AI, so it lost eventually.

    - Scouts win at everything.

    Wait, I think I already mentioned that last part >.<
    "My soul belongs to God I know, I made that bargain long ago. He gave me hope when hope was gone. He gave me strength to journey on."

  8. #58
    And they said I was mad! MAD I TELL YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Damn, I was looking forward to switching it up and playing TM.

  9. #59
    I'm waiting for the 1.4.2 patch notes

    Changed name of "Space Marine" faction to "Scout Marine"
    Apparently I have Stefan to thank for this. Thanks, man!

  10. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #60
    Talented Musician Buguba's Avatar
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    Apr 2006
    Mount of Olives
    And they said I was mad! MAD I TELL YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    From my impressions, it's mainly just that sluggas and scouts are ridiculous, and Tacs + ASMs are overpriced. Good thing it's a beta though. You don't have to worry about TM being bad now, you just have to remember to build nothing but scouts with your plasma gun.

    Still though, I say we burn Stefan at a pyre.

  11. #61
    So uh. WTF is wrong with the ASM's.

  12. #62
    Member Goobers's Avatar
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    May 2007
    Beyond the Black Stump
    Terminators default to a melee stance unless you upgrade them. Fresh out of the box they will rush over and bash things instead of shooting them now, same with the TermiFC.

    The TermiFC kinda got cheaper and more estranged. His heavy Flamer lost its ability and does 1/10th the damage of the normal Tac Squad Flamer, so its completely worthless and not worth getting, he defaults to melee with it equipped because its so worthless. The Assault Cannon is a whole different kettle of fish, it gets out healed by the new and now nerfed base healing, on Spore Mines and Termagants.

    Scouts basically fill every single gap in the Space Marine line up. Melee? Kite and Shotgun, Ranged? Grenade and Shotgun, Vehicles? Probably does better than the Missile Tac Squad by simply Kiting and Shotgunning. On the flip side of the equation, Tac Squads now suck for T1, read: they suck for 80% of the game.

    However Flamers do rock. You can turn the tables on your entire army getting raped by a melee mass by having a single flamer not tied up, a feat unto itself since all the melee units are cheaper and better than the Tac squads by a fair margin, and the entire squad WILL be owned before ATSKNF kicks in.

    Basically Scouts > Space Marine Faction, and that really bores the hell out of me but I'm still going to try and make my games with ASM and Tac Squads and see how far it gets me. Still early days so maybe something flash will come up, ASM + Flamer Tacs are very painful, so long as you don't get knocked off the peg before you get there since you didn't build any scouts to keep the cheap melee mass away.

  13. #63
    Member REDDY's Avatar
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    Aug 2008
    SM first impressions; Relic... I am disappoint. Tacs... Gimped. OH HAY MY 500 req elite unit gets buttraped by 300 req capping units! ASM... gimped beyond all belief. I'd be surprised if they could even kill gaunts. HB devs... power cost restricts them from hitting the field when needed. Scouts... oh wait a second this unit is fucking GODLY. Kneejerk reaction: Remove all tier 1 SM units except for scouts because there is absolutely no reason to build anything else.
    I agree. Tier 1 for SM is a nightmare now and it's not fun to just keep churning out one type of unit until you tech up to tier 2 (which is quite a long time to get to now).

  14. #64
    Chappy FooF's Avatar
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    Going to chime in here...

    Tacs, at this stage of the game, are worth about 300 Req. ASM are worth 300/30, maybe. Heavy Armor was the worst thing that could have happened to them. At no point of the game are they superior to cheaper troops. They get shredded from minute one by all melee, get trounced by Power weapons in T2 and Tanks roll them with explosive damage in T3. They are superior to nothing throughout the entire game.

    Everything and their mother can blow holes through them. Guardians, Terms, Shootas (what should be countered by Tacs) just out-DPS them.

    What the balance team failed to realize, it seems, is that Tacs and ASM were not damage-dealers in pre-1.4 but rather tanks that simply outlasted their counterparts on the field. Now, they have the same DPS, but everything else has buffed DPS that goes right through them. You want Tacs and ASM to be worth something? Raise their DPS by 50% or give them 2x the HP they have now. Seriously.

    The FC is trash now. Against Eldar, you know Shees are coming and the FC has to run from them, Tacs have to run from them and early Scouts don't have Shotties so they have to run from them. Agaisnt Orks, FC loses to Sluggas (and you know they're coming too), Tacs lose to Sluggas and Scouts lose to Sluggas w/out Shotties.

    I don't understand how the Devs could leave SM in such a weak state from the get-go. They have nothing that hard counters anything that anyone would actually build. No Eldar player would ever go 3x Guardian against SM. No Ork player would go 2x Shoota against SM. Nids might have to use a little more combined-arms theory but Terms+Horms are plenty effective against Tacs.

    Shottie Scouts are the only thing SM have, which is horrible.

    I knew I was right the moment I saw my ASM squad (3+Sgt) die in less than 3 seconds after jumping on Banshees. Granted, I should know better, but the 400/0 unit made a 500/50 melee unit die without take more than 50 pts of damage.

  15. #65
    Wow, FooF. I thought I was out-of-my-mind harsh. That was brutal, but spot on.

    If this board had wubs, you'd have mine right now.

  16. #66
    And I agree with everything you said and like I mentioned on the SM vs Ork battle report post, everyone rush melee against SM and you have nothing to do. They will harass you power node with anything, couse everything do respectable damaged to the gens and will delay your HB long enough to rendering useless.

    I think they should eliminate the power cost of some things on the SM T1 army, you can only go scouts or tacs and need to hold a Power Node with this 2 crap units againts Eldar shee's, God's sluggas, And hyper Horm-Ter combo until shotguns arrive.

    Also the problem with FC is critical, is of no use at any point of the match, Apothecary at least has knockback-on-heal that I've seen it been used as a very good way to clear area before retreat. And no comments about TM Megaman he's the best now...
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  17. #67
    Playing sm is like playing the campaign on Primarch.

  18. #68
    Apothecary at least has knockback-on-heal that I've seen it been used as a very good way to clear area before retreat.
    I thank the Emperor that at least the apothecary has that. And it's at tier 1, so I have an opportunity to hang on by my fingernails with the rest of the gimped T1 space marine army.

    But on the subject of the apothecary and his wargear, I'd like to be the first to point out how stupid the nerf of Combat Stims was. Why did this need to be nerfed at all? It's not like Doom or Mark Target where every unit in your army benefits when they focus down the target. Only 1 squad can have combat stims, so that justified the large increase in damage output. Even more confusing is the nerf to its effectiveness combined with a nerf to its cooldown. So now it's crappy and it can only be used occasionally. Why bother? Just go with purification, because Relic apparently wants to punish anyone who would dare to go with the 1.3.2 bolter/stim/med. equipment route.

    Seriously...did anyone think half of this stuff through?
    Last edited by BudgetMessiah; 2nd Jul 09 at 9:01 PM.

  19. #69
    TM is good, so far I havnt found his plasmagun to be overpowered, ohh he can clean a full slugga squad in about 10 seconds with overcharge, problem being that if he kills half of it and it makes it to melee he has to retreat.

    I would have made sluggas have a extra choppy upgrade at tier2 to increase damage from the old values to the new.
    and then a extra armor upgrade at tier3+25% health per member.
    25req 5 power for the extra choppy and same for the armor upgrade.

    have scout grenades got a buff

    it used to take 4 grenades to kill a 4 man tac squad.

    It now only takes 2 to 100% insta gib it.

    Tacs are surposed to take 25% more damage from explosives but it still doesnt add up, and scout grenades dont seem to be doing more damage to other units then previously.

    There maybe a bug in how heavy armor is working.

  20. #70
    Explosives rock heavy armor. Hell, it seems like everything rocks heavy armor. That's why terminators had more HP per model than even a high level commander. And even then, Terminators needed to be looked after.

    The bug is in the developers' thought process. Disappointed doesn't even begin to cover it.

  21. #71
    yeah but heavy armor was only spose to take 25% extra damage right?

    I can also confirm scout sniper rifles got a damage nerf ontop of the setup time, they can nolonger be used as anti commander.... kinda negates one of there most worthwhile traits.
    Effectively anything NOT SHOTTIES was nerfed when it comes to scouts.. big surprise but its really annoying overall.

    Scouts had a clearly defined role previously
    They wernt broken
    Shotties didnt have a clearly defined role.

    THe only problem(unbalanced) was sniperrifles and a setup time was really the onlything that was really needed.

    So instead of building on something that was already working prettymuch as intended, they had to go and imba one aspect of it while destroying all the others.....
    I still have to scream at the top of my lungs

  22. #72
    I have to wonder.. back in DOW 1 wasnt it stefan that helped prompt the switch from IG armour to useless punching bag IG?

    That said, yes scout spam rocks, the only viable counters I've seen are 1-2 dev's with either tac's or ASM, but then that only works if your opponants micro is weaker or he forgets to infiltrate etc.

    Having the ability to do a one shot huge knockback effect on demand is bad and totally throws balance out the window. Better if it was less powerfull and the Tac's were buffed back up a bit, combined with the price on ASM dropping so their actually available and usefull in T1.

  23. #73
    Chappy FooF's Avatar
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    On the brink of insanity
    I am going to post this here though I composed for the official site. This was after the post I made in here earlier, so some parts will be a repeat. (WARNING: LONG POST AHEAD):

    Eldar/Ork/Nids all seem to be well suited to taking each other on but SM are behind the 8-ball from the get-go. SM have had quite a few changes but none more far reaching than Scout Shotguns and Tac/ASM armor changes.

    I'm going to try to be as detailed as possible, with the full knowledge the Beta is only 6 hours old. Here are some of the problems I've seen/played with in the various match-ups so far:

    1.) Only SM have to spend power to counter melee units, and everyone with a lick of intelligence will build melee units against SM.

    At the very beginning of the game, SM have Scouts and their commander. Orks have Sluggas, Eldar have Guardians and Nids have Horms. Against all three, Scouts are ridiculously outgunned or manhandled by melee. The FC will get destroyed by Sluggas or Shees so he's not the answer either.

    With the first 500 Req, against SM, every Ork player I faced got another Slugga squad. Every Eldar player I faced got a Banshee squad while Nids usually went with a Term but sometimes with a Horm squad. SM can either go with another Scout squad or Tacs.

    Neither Scouts nor Tacs can handle squads of Sluggas or Shees, and Scouts will fall to Horms or Terms while Tacs can win out against them. Against a Nid player, Tacs might be the proper choice until you realize a few things.

    Scout Shotguns are an absolute must in every game. They are the only good thing in T1 for SM (more on that later) and are borderline OP in numbers. However, they cost Power and no other race has to buy an upgrade to counter enemy melee. Until you get 20 power for the first shotgun (which, I know, isn't *that* hard to get), SM have no melee counter.

    With all the talk about diversifying strategies and such, there is no variation in SM build order: you must get a Shotgun and as quickly as possible. There is no reason not to get one and you are doomed without it.

    2. Scouts do everything.

    Melee on your back? Shotgun them off you.
    Set-up team blocking a choke point? Infiltrate+Nade
    Rangers sniping you? Sgt+Shotties

    There is nothing Tacs/ASM can do that a few Scout's can't do better with Shotties, Infiltration and the Sgt. Tacs don't hold up under melee, while equal Req worth of Scouts can. Scouts can counter weapons teams, Tacs can't. Scouts can counter other ranged units due to infiltration+grenade.

    3-4 Scout squads, upgraded (I know it takes power), will beat the pants off of an equivalent Tac/ASM force. They'll push the Tacs/ASM around, grenade them, and then scamper off if they start taking too much damage.

    Against other races, the same holds true. They do everything Tacs/ASM can do but better. There's no reason to build Tacs/ASM when 3-4 Scouts in T1 will hold out just fine until T2.

    3. Tacs/ASM horribly, horribly inefficient for cost

    The one thing I didn't see in the patch notes that I knew would cause problems was that Tacs/ASM didn't have their DPS increased. For all the DPS increases by other melee units and ranged units, Tacs/ASM stayed relatively the same.

    In 1.3.2, you have to understand that Tacs didn't out-DPS their enemies. They outlasted them with a ton of HP. Their HP in 1.4 is, relatively speaking due to the increases to melee damage, basically cut to two-thirds to half of what it used to be, especially considering that many weapons do 50% more damage (namely their counters: Shees, Stormboyz, Raveners). So, you have Tacs/ASM doing their old damage with half the effective HP they used to have.

    They get murdered.

    I honestly don't think Tacs are worth more than about 350 Req with the rate they get chopped down. ASM are worth 350/30, maybe. If they had those prices, I could see them being torn to shreds, but they don't have those prices. They're 500 and 500/50, respectively and dominated by units 2/3rds their cost.

    Tacs/ASM need one of two things: more HP or more DPS. If you want them to be the tanks they used to, they need a ton more HP to actually be efficient for cost. Or, you could increase their DPS so they actually cause losses before they ripped to shreds. I guess there's the third option: reduce their price. However, I don't want to get away from the whole "elite, extremely tough super soldier" model. Here's even a 4th option: add one more member at the current HP/DPS.

    As it stands, Tacs/ASM are paper-thin in T1 and even worse in T2/T3. Why? Heavy Armor takes extra damage from Explosive and Plasma, which becomes prevalent in T2/T3. You'll see Tacs get one-shotted by a Looted Pred (there's 83 Req I have to replace and couldn't do anything about). They go from weak to weaker as the game progresses.

    4. ASM are less than worthless in T1 and don't fare much better in T2.

    Only during a small window in T2 are ASM superior to similar units of less cost. Compared to their jumping cousins, they're inferior to Stormboyz, Raveners and will lose to them every time because those units have power weapons that do extra damage. They'll also lose to any melee unit save Horms in T1.

    The only thing they seem to be specifically suited for is jumping on HWT. They can mess up a Guardian, Shoota, or Termagant squad but Tacs could already do that (since, for once, their heavy armor is an advantage). They can't jump on Shees, Sluggas, Raveners, Warriors, or Stormboyz because they'll get destroyed in melee. For a unit that costs so much, it has a very, very limited role (and one that can be handled by infiltrated Scouts just fine). In fact, I would say ASM have no cost-efficient role at all in T1. Don't build them until T2, or at all (since 40 more power gets you a Dread or 10 more power gets you a RB that can take out HWTs).

    In T2, Meltas and Sgts make ASM marginally better than Stormboyz and set them apart from Raveners (who become sneaky in T2 while ASM can hurt vehicles). However, like Tacs, they run into all the plasma and explosive damage and get gibbed before they even make it back down to earth.

    5. Force Commander is a joke.

    This can be said of most of the offensive commanders (who, like the "Tac syndrome" above, have the same DPS/health as before but are facing much, much more powerful melee units) but the FC gets ripped apart by the basic melee squads and has no recourse. I watched a Power Sword/Artificer Armor FC fall to a single Shee squad that cost 400 req.

    So, what do I suggest?

    I honestly think the other races are fine against each other, it's just SM needs to be buffed. Tacs/ASM need to have even more HP. Tacs currently have 350 and ASM have 400 HP. Tacs *need* about 450 per model and ASM need about 500, and that is no joke. With all the Power weapons being fielded, against Shees/Raveners/Stormboyz/Warriors, Tacs effectively have about 280 HP/model (because of the damage bonus against Heavy armor) but only do something like 15 DPS. If they had 450 HP to start, against power weapons they'd have roughly 360 effective HP.

    If ASM had 1500 HP to start, against other "jump" troops, they'd be about on par. The power weapons would reduce their effective HP to 1200 HP (so, for example, against Raveners, the HP and DPS would be about identical). Shees would still beat ASM (with the gear), Sluggas would win by attrition, Stormboyz would be close and Raveners woudl be a dead-heat.

    Now, how this really comes into play is Veterancy. Such high HP units would have even greater returns on the the Vet bonuses. If a good SM player keeps his Tacs/ASM squads alive, the Plasma/Explosive damage that comes in T2/T3 is mitigated somewhat. They're till vulnerable to it, but you won't get one-shotted by a Looted tank. It also allows vetted Tacs/ASM to go into melee against other basic melee troops with a prayer of survival.

    The question then becomes, are Tacs/ASM too powerful against non power-weapon wielding enemies? If the heavy armor imparts a 25% damage reduction, we've effectively given Tacs/ASM 33% more health (665 and 800, respectively). They'd be tanks, that's for sure, but their DPS still isn't that impressive compared to all the DPS-boosted troops out there. Tacs would definitely hard counter regular ranged troops (which is what they're supposed to be now) but also at least stand up to the melee troops. On the other hand, ASM (who already countered ranged troops by virtue of melee) could at least mix it up against basic melee troops and win, albeit with losses and sometimes they'd be outright beaten by more dedicated melee like Shees or Waagh! sluggas. They wouldn't be the melee kings, but they wouldn't be the wannabes they are now.

    Long read, I know. Thanks for making it this far. I'd like to know what you think.

    :edited to fix power weapon numbers. I thought it was a 50% bonus to heavy, it's only 25%. Fixed the effective HP and suggested HP for Tacs/ASM:
    Last edited by FooF; 2nd Jul 09 at 10:59 PM.

  24. Dawn of War Senior Member  #74
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
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    Seriously, Stefan bashing must stop...

    I have been watching this thread all night waiting to get home and try out the new TM changes, and yet I came here first to tell you all to stop being asshats. Its embarrassing.
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  25. #75
    Honestly FooF that was a good read.
    Some good points and I can't see myself disagreeing with anything you said.

    The other races so far, feel okay. But on a pound for pound basis it feels like an uphill fight with SM, with far to much dependance on scouts + mistakes on your opponants part to win.

  26. #76
    I think I love you, FooF.

    You really have given some thought to this, and if Relic decides to keep the Heavy Armor on marines, I hope they listen to your suggestion of additional hitpoints. The comparison of ASMs to Raveners is a compelling argument, and I think a rebalance along the lines of what you are suggesting would be fair.

    Personally, though, I think they should be returned to their old armor type and have their hit points adjusted. This change was made for rather dubious reasons, anyway. I don't recall too many games where I thought, "Gee, I wish there was some way my tactical marines could stand up to guardians' withering fire!" If ranged units were a problem, my old scout-shotguns or my old assault marines could break up the firing line and turn the odds in my favor. Now I attempt the same tactics and pray my opponent makes an error, because that's the only way I am going to make a push and not get spanked with pretty heavy losses.

    Also, the expense of the new space marine army extends beyond the Tacs and ASMs as well. Infiltration is painful to buy in addition to a weapon upgrade on the scouts, and what's the point if I need 60 energy to use any of the scout's other abilities? Besides, detectors abound in tier 1 now, so infiltration is much less desirable anyway. If Tier 2 was pushed back, why is the razorback more expensive to boot? It's not like we'll be seeing RB rushes when I need all that power to kit out my scouts and get to tier 2.

  27. #77
    Ok i dont get it. I'm still at work and havent been able to try the beta yet but from reading all your comment's HOW could Relic have borked SM balance up so badly? I am sure that they will fix this during this beta period so arent really worried, but i dont understand how they could make scouts seemingly stronger than both tacs AND Asm?! I was always opposed to tac blobbing and always thought ASM being basically melee specialists should be somewhat comparable to banshee's/stormboys - a staple melee unit with sluggas being somewhat under them with numbers being their advantage.

    So yeah, how? It seems like some kind of massive there ANY tactical explanation for it? Or has the heavy armour change been the key to it? Like, they have tested it themselves, how could scouts be superior to tacs and asm? It does NOT add up.....

  28. #78
    Chappy FooF's Avatar
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    I failed to add in the first point that Scouts might as well start with Shotguns. Increase their overall price if you have to but there's absolutely no reason to try to hold out for Sniper Scouts.

    If they started with Shotguns and could upgrade to the Sniper in T2, that's one thing. Then, you could have the infiltration upgrade separate (and make it about 40/20) and we're all squared away.

    The Sniper upgrade would also make the other squad members go to Bolters, so it's not like we're losing Bolter Scouts anywhere.

    @ deepjay

    I don't think it's an oversight as it as much as getting into a rut when playtesting. The Devs are trying combined arms and going out of their way to utilize every unit but at the competitive level, whatever works gets abused. Right now melee>Tacs, so no one is going to use combined arms against SM. They're going to pound it down their throat with their superior melee troops and all SM have are Shotty scouts, which are the hard counter for melee. Tacs/ASM were meant to counter ranged troops and no one builds ranged troops against SM.

    I don't think the Devs were ignorant of this fact but remember, they admitted that they thought SM was about right to begin with. They thought they could plug a near-1.3.2 SM army into the 1.4 game and as we're finding out, SM don't cut it with the current HP/DPS.

    In T2, SM is competitive but T1 is really, really difficult. I didn't mention HB Devs in the long post because my experience with them thus far has been limited. They do work, but SM are way more dependent on them than Eldar are of Plats or Nids are with BS Warriors.
    Last edited by FooF; 2nd Jul 09 at 10:50 PM.

  29. #79
    yeah but heavy armor was only spose to take 25% extra damage right?
    heavy armor takes 200% from explosives

    what this means is that our AV unit, tacs with ML, are hard countered by vehicles, I know, I lol'd too when I realized this

    honestly I don't understand how shit like that and all that FooF mentioned can go unnoticed through relic testing, you realy need to try very hard to make SMs not loose to melee spam which makes me belive that all relic tester were so focused on the whole "combined arms" thing that they compleatly forgot to test if melee rapes SMs, which is even more funny given that a lot of people saw this comming (I remember pages long discussion on this with poeple telling me "tacs and ASMs will be fine", "omg l2p nub" etc), by just watching the second BR and reading the patchnotes
    Gaius Baltar in S04E16 nBSG: "and guns ! more guns ! BIGGER GUNS ! BETTER GUNS ! AND WHEN WE HAVE THOSE, WE WILL WIN !"

  30. #80
    Hang on I just got off the phone from Relic, they have confirmed that heavy armour completely protects you from potatoes and lettuce, anything else is a hard counter.

  31. #81
    why balance so broken anyway? there was only NIDS imba and maybe a number *slight* imbalances / But now balace totally broken with cheap units doing insane damages for no reason at all.

  32. #82
    Well, played a bit with space marines. Got steamrolled first by Orks due to sluggas beating the crap out of my everything, and then by banshees, beating the crap out of my everything.
    However, I really didn't see how shotgun scouts were useful. Though I had only one squad, the shotgun's ability fires one volley that knock-back some of the enemy squad and wounding them a bit. That didn't help, as the sluggas/banshees quickly got up from the ground and proceeded to beat the crap of my marines.
    I did however notice that HB devastators + For the Emperor (which costs only 50 zeal now!) and the focus fire thingy does some nice damage.
    Also, despite the force commander is now crap, I like the concept of the slow teching, since it's a good reason to finally use the other wargear.
    Last edited by Eternal Thought; 3rd Jul 09 at 12:29 AM.

  33. Dawn of War Senior Member  #83
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Surrounded by whitespace
    Sokay, my first impressions are pretty much a watered down version of all the doom and gloom here.

    First off, I am playing the TM. This means, essentially, I am playing with all buffs and a few tiny nerfs. This patch has made TM players very happy I assure you. For one thing, in my test matches vs. the computer, I was using everything the TM had... not just for testing purposes, but because I actually had a tactical reason to buy these things AND use them.

    Mines... Check.
    Relays... Check.
    Turrets... Check.

    I still dislike the difficulty of using bionics... I still believe that the sweep should be a base power of the TM because of this.

    BiA's AOE is much MUCH improved... its worth having now, though I still dont get that "buffed" feeling from seeing my units shooting from within its spell. I liked it better when my ML's and plasma would fire faster, its basically a bolter-buff now, but hey... you can't have everything aparently.

    Plasma Devs are a bit meh. with everything moving around more (Melee units) and some units getting more HP, the same old problem with the plasma shot is there - getting solid hits on moving targets is really not that easy. It seems to be good vs. mobs like usual. I think that it needs to do a bit more AV damage to compensate for the lower shot speed, and the new WTF damage they are taking from tanks and melee counter-units.

    Devs. vs. Set-up counters = OMFGWTFBBQSIGH... Nades, Stormies, Raveners are going to make invesments in devistators of all kinds very risky propositions. Good thing my turrets are now a viable alternative to devs due to balancing factors.
    The computer AI didn't seem any smarter really... same old stuff - though the ork AI did a good job of spamming mechs and camping VP's with looteds... nasty! All in all the AI doesn't pressure hard enough with CC units, so I didn't get that same "WTF" face everyone else is making over shees and sluggas.

    Things I noticed.

    Flamers are a good T1 investment.
    Hero powers that stall/knockdown enemy units + flamers = win.
    Shotgun blast failing to get that last slugga in the squad =
    Shotties are very very potent, people will spam them, and then the CC spam will stop. We are in a balance phase... once people start eating losses to shottie spam, you'll see the ranged units come back out again... relax.
    VD is easy to afford, but still T3... but hes on the menu god damn it, this makes me very happy.
    Plasma gun outshines the others... too much so. Its going to eat nerf.
    TM bolter WG need DPS buffs, or price drops. Its just not quite worth the price for what they do under normal circumstances... but otherwise they seem really solid now.

    Finally, the primary oversight now is SM AV. ML tacs doing less damage per shot while taking hideous losses PER SHOT is a of epic proportions. I had a 3 man tac squad with ML gibbed in 2 shots from a Looted... they never fired a missle as the lead SM was the Heavy Weapon guy, while the Looted fired in such rapid succession that the remaining squaddies were nuked before they could even get into position.

    The counter to this will be to use Razors to get up close and deploy, or to use SM teleport/powerfist, Orbs, (apoth?) to get on top of the enemy tank before it can unleash hell. Still, the SM player is risking massive req and energy on very dodgy odds just to get into position to do damage (never mind kill) these units... all the while having to worry about CC unit ambushes and hero-counters. This is a very sorry situation for SM in general.


    Initial proposed changes :

    TM plasma needs a slight nerf, while bolters need equivlent buffs to standard fire.

    SM ML's need 20-30% more range and damage. This can be offset by taking accuracy vs. Large units down to 85-90%. Alternatively, ML's could be given an AOE blast which doubles as anti-infantry so that ML squads are no longer a liability when trying to face down infantry blobs.

    Tac health scaling could be better.

    ASTKNF might have a faster charge.

    Tac reinforcement could be cheaper, given their new found frailty to 50% of the units in the game.

    PlasDev AV damage could use a slight buff.

    Scout shottie "blast" could have some sort of "template" to help aim it... not getting consistant results will be the death of too many noobs. Perhaps practice will help this, but it seems hard to "visualize" the template in chaotic situations.

    Autoseeking cover AI needs to be tweaked or removed. Lower the range a unit will "look" for cover... this would solve many evils with ranged heroes and special weapons.
    Last edited by Troubleshooter; 3rd Jul 09 at 12:18 AM.

  34. #84
    The problem is you only had one squad. Spam more and see how effective it is?

    I can't really say if tacs/ASM are UP or not - every single SM player I've faced so far as just spammed massive piles of shotgun scouts and I've only seen tacs when the AI took over (and we all know the AI is fail no matter what it uses).

  35. #85
    Anyone else finding dreads underpowered and the new movement=dead dreads.

    I will give you an example
    I emped two ork tanks and sent to dreads to them.

    behold it turns out dreads are now forced to move for tanks and even thou the tanks wernt shooting or moving my dreads couldnt get near them. they kept trying to go around.
    Then emp wore off
    then my dreads died
    lovely fun

  36. #86
    no more HB first build option.. =(

  37. #87
    SM is all but worthless now... Even the termis still barely see the field. I didn't even get to field a termi squad till about 25 mins into a 3v3 game and even then they still got owned pretty much.

  38. #88
    Member eldritchweather's Avatar
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    Jan 2009
    nowhere specific
    Mass scout SM armies are just not supposed to happen its ridiculous kinda reminds me of mass GUs in Eldar lineup. Make sarges T1 upgrade? change ASM to cost no power but with jump as upgrade!? make flamers buff melee damage as well?buff Tacs ranged damage? Do something ffs?

  39. #89
    you know what Sm need (along with some adjustemnets to the existing units)? Another unit at T1, the veteran tac sqaud from the single player just with every unit having a power axe and plasma pistol, so basicly ASMs without the jump buth with power weapons, the dedicated melee of the SM army, same cost as the regular tacs, maybe 50 req more

    probably won't happen, but it would fix the whole problem of melee owning SMs before your shotgun spam starts rolling

  40. #90
    it would fix the whole problem of melee owning SMs before your shotgun spam starts rolling to fix the problem of shotgun spam being the most desirable tactic? Why are scouts my prizefighters and tacs relegated to second stringers?

  41. Dawn of War Senior Member  #91
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Surrounded by whitespace to fix the problem of shotgun spam being the most desirable tactic? Why are scouts my prizefighters and tacs relegated to second stringers?
    Ranged units will eat scout spam alive... as people get over the initial shock value of OMG sluggas and Shees, you'll see more conventional mixing of forces.

    Nids are a mystery though... they don't seem to need Termagants vs. SM, since hormies will do all the heavy lifting and then some until T1.5, when Raveners will easily slide into the anti-asm role.

  42. #92
    man ive just about had it with the "balance" patch

    Anti range
    Anti veheicle
    they can kill bloody dreads ffs 2 squads send one in and wait for other player to use stomp then go in with the second.

    currently as far as I see it
    all sm heros need +100 hitpoints base
    FC may need 200.

    and eldar needs a massive nersstick

    Bansheees costing no power but forcing sm to go power to counter lets them just tech straight up to avatar.

    your left with an army that can only fight infantryeven if they are imba vs vehicles and the avatar.

    The feeling I would get vs mass carnifexes using venom cannon I now get.

    Techmarines emp grenade needs to be made sticky, new vehicle ai makes it just unworkable.
    Either that or it needs a longer range(all tanks can kite him because they shoot outside his throw range, and make it instant explode rather then cooldown.
    UNlike most other grenades its not an instant or near instant death getting hit by it.

    Btw if you want to see true balance..

    watch what happens when a 3man tac squad fights a guardin squad both in cover.

    you force the guardin squad to withdraw
    But you lose 1-2 members
    tell me
    who wins in reinforcement costs?

  43. #93
    Problem is, ranged units don't eat scout spam alive. Scouts with infiltration roll in, find cover, and light up whatever they encounter. Stay infiltrated to reduce damage to a lul, or drop cover and let the boom shot rip and finish off the ranged units while they are on their asses.

    Or put succinctly, how many ranged units do you know of that put out 20 DPS per model, and have a built-in ranged damage reduction?

  44. Child's Play Donor Dawn of War Senior Member  #94
    Calculating Maktaka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    in the City
    Ranged units will eat scout spam alive... as people get over the initial shock value of OMG sluggas and Shees, you'll see more conventional mixing of forces.
    That's just it, ranged units don't beat scouts with shotguns. Scouts infiltrate for reduced damage, chuck grenades, and scoot a little closer to get the close range damage bonus on the shotguns. Literally every combat scenario in tier 1 is most effectively dealt with by more scouts with shotguns.

  45. #95
    Early days yet, but something I did notice from my limited play last night:

    The Tier 2 Carnifex is an absolute nightmare to take down with Tactical squads. Using combat stims and an ML-equipped tac squad, I really could not take down a T2 carnifex at all. The necessity of building scout squads to survive T1 at the moment and the relative vulnerability of tac squads means that you have fewer tacs on the field in T2 and it's much easier and safer for your opponent to tie them up and allow vehicles to hit them. And chase them right into your base and murder them there

  46. #96
    Wow 200% extra damage from grenades?

    Pity they didnt get made to ttake 200% less damage from normal guns like guardins.

  47. #97
    I can divide by 0 Ruzdreg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    A dragon's tooth in a mortal's hand, I kill, I maim, I rule the land!
    So Spacemarines are super weak now?
    I guess you gotta kill 2 humies to even feel satisfied!

    I wont be able to try any of this out till tomorrow and judging by the download size and my poor internet connection, its likely I wont actually be playing this till the day after.

  48. #98
    I too find that SM really struggle since there aren't any effective strats without consuming massive amounts of power in T1. Totally cripples teching to T2.

    I think making ASM a req only unit and give them upgrade for the jump ability could solve some issues. ASM could be a unit that can soak up damage in close combat long enough for ranged units to get some decent damage done.

    They could be 400 req initially, and 100/30? for jump ability. Not sure on power price here but the 50 power price tag they currently have is just too much imo. Some HP adjustment to make them a bit more tanky.

  49. #99
    A Big Pile of Insanity Pocktio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    An Unparalleled Record
    I'm not sure if anyone has brought it up but Devs are way more expensive, removing yet another SM option. I was playing with them today and I was baffled by how different tacs are. Now they're just slow target practice, shootas deal more damage!

    One thing which is poon though is the TM plasmagun, he was taking down an ork per shot I swear
    Knife King of Doltland

    I'm not surprised. Anything within three feet of you seems to end up full of knife shaped holes.

  50. #100
    i'm not sure why people expect a asm ie a shock/jump troop to stand up to shees a dedicated melee troop, no matter what the cost. they explained their logic in the battle reports.

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