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SM First Impressions

  1. #101
    Member Pocktio's Avatar
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    ASM is shock? ASM is a dedicated melee troop for SM in t1 it just has a jump pack which gives it a higher cost. It should do better than it currently is against shees. Orks have stormies and sluggas, SM needs a good alternative.
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  2. #102
    Especially if I'm dumping 50! power on the unit I'm expecting it do something too.

  3. #103
    Member Shakrith's Avatar
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    I acknowledge that SM are highly vulnerable against melee, but I've been playing apothecary with tacs and ASM then heavy bolters, and find that it absolutely kills.

    Assault Marines are fantastic for breaking up enemy melee attacks, and you keep your tacs and heavy bolters back to chew through what's left. ASM can kill lone commanders, heavy weapons teams, and especially just their landing ability (then at T2, punching) makes them extremely viable against Eldar, Marines and Orks. Against Nids, well, yes. More bolters.

    Am I the only one who has been seeing ASM routinely smash opponents? I've been fast teching to T2 and getting the sergeant and Armour of the Apothecarion, and it's paid off, if you can be the first to T2 and wheel this combo out you've got a massive melee tank with high DPS which gives you every opportunity to let rip at range while your enemies are tied up. I've played 5 games this way and won 3.

    EDIT: Yes, getting enough power is a bit difficult, which is why I only bring out 1 unit of ASM until T2 and invest req heavily in generators. I have only been playing 3v3, so this does give me a bit of slack so I don't have to use scouts to survive, though I can see why this would be an issue in 1v1. If I have a non-SM ally it's perfectly easy for Tactical marines to survive hiding behind the allied melee troops until I have the power to bring out a fairly up-close-and-personal strat with Apothecary (Armour of the Apothecarion, then Sanguine Chainsword, then the medical kit) and fully upgraded ASM, 1 or 2 squads at most.
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  4. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #104
    so amaze Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    Maktaka, if your complaining about infiltration, your seriously not seeing the bigger picture.

    Infiltration on scouts costs a bundle - either your'll delay tier 2 to a level so dangerous you'll lose straight out, or your'll get nuked by the now super early and powerful detectors. If you have infiltration, your opponent will have a detector as part of their tech tree to neutralise it. Warriors, Nobz...

    The only balance matchup I can see is eldar vs SM, and thats screwed because banshees cost no power and guardians are just as good as tacticals.

    Scouts are your only option, because their the only damn thing you can afford. you tell me - when your opponent can spam squads that cost between 270-400 depending on the unit, how is 500 an acceptable investment? Drop pod is still tier 2 (oh god, thats so painful) and FTE is still a ranged damage buff you can't use because your units are tied up in melee.

    There needs to be some serious buffing of SM troops, either through cost (so that I can actually get ASM out at a decent rate) or stats (so that your not ripped to shreds the second you enter a fight).

    SM flamers seem bugged compared to slugga flamers.

    I still don't see how TM turrets are better than devestators, at an even MORE similar cost, and have tremendous AV power with Vengence rounds.

    Yes I played crap in that game Dei posted, but I'd been playing vs Stefan, TASK3R and josh most of that evening. Every time I went SM my games played out like that.

    Now I'm not an amazing player. How many people truely are? Not everyone can super micro scouts.
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  5. #105
    with asm you are paying for the ability to jump in, knock down and tie up a squad in seconds. from the explanation in the battle report they are not meaning for them to be used to tackle dedicated melee, at least without support. their role is take out setup teams and plats, stun an early vehicle or force a retreat of a zoan that is supporting the opponents force.

    that's what i took from it anyway.

  6. #106
    Member Atritas's Avatar
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    I think a change to Heavy Armor is in order. Maybe make it take full damage from power weapons instead of increased? And 150% instead of 200% from tank attacks.

    That, and what FooF said. Either more DPS, more squad members or lower cost for Tacs/ASM.
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  7. #107
    Edbop the problem is
    shees a dedicated melee troop costs no power gets spamed and requires power to counter.

    Not only do shees kill infantry but they kill vehicles aswell.


    ernergy free unit that effectively kills everything sm has till sm gets tanks and can kite...

    wait
    there is one counter
    MASSS SCOUTS AND SHOTTIES....
    gotta love the options
    the choices
    the edge of your seat,riveting, underwear soiling options of.
    Mass shottie scouts or
    DIEING tier1-2.

  8. #108
    Member eldritchweather's Avatar
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    @masterblaster upgraded Shees cost more than a RB

  9. #109
    yeah but shees are useful before they get any upgrades.....
    scouts and tacs aint

  10. #110
    Member Goobers's Avatar
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    Upgraded Shees are also anti-everything, a Razorback is exclusively anti-infantry.

    That said, as far as I've seen, Shees lose horribly to Tac Squads with a Sarge, about as horribly as unupgraded Tacs lose to out of the box shees.



    The more I play the less units I use.

    Tac and Assault Marines have been pretty much ruled right out, having previously been the two main units I used. They have been replaced by Scouts and turrets, heck I built more Relay Beacons than Tac Squads in my last game, and the relay beacons actually contributed something to my game.

    Heavy Armour is probably the worst thing that has happened to Space Marines in a long time, Tacs and ASM practically insta-gibbed by Grenades and Plasma Devs, Tanks making back 83 req per shot against Missile Tacs, practically every unit in the game got 25%-200% buff against Tacs and ASM.

    Shees, Ravaners, Storm Boyz, Warriors, Guardians, Slugga Boyz, all got buffed and also got power weapons or explosive damage on top. Its no fun when the most heavily armoured soldiers in the Imperium are about as durable Campaign Guardsmen. Only then to have the main selling points of Tacs and ASM, the sarge, delayed by 80power to boot.
    Last edited by Goobers; 3rd Jul 09 at 5:01 AM.

  11. Dawn of War Senior Member  #111
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
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    The only balance matchup I can see is eldar vs SM, and thats screwed because banshees cost no power and guardians are just as good as tacticals.
    You mean with upgrades right? The AI games I played, GU's were melting to bolter fire... and I was killing eldar units that were in retreat with flamer and shotgun fire... I didn't feel the slightest bit intimidated by GU's except in the very early game, when I saw one squad nix half my TM's health in short order.

    Again, I suppose I will have to see properly microed units to get the full horror of this situation

    Edit: Forgot this earlier...

    Lone Relays are actually decent healing auras. 2x relays will out heal a slugga and shoota squad wailing away.

    best of all... you can retreat from your HQ to a forward Relay point, and you can toggle multiple relays on the map to retreat/deploy across the battlefield.
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  12. #112
    Member Goobers's Avatar
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    Sad isn't it?

    The most hated and despised piece of kit in the whole Space Marine arsenal is suddenly being praised as decent.

  13. #113
    troubleshooter was talking out of his ass, I just tried it and it got me killed.

    it doesnt even outheal a SLUGGA squad nevermind the socalled shootasquad behind it.

    the tacs died as did the techmarine.

    The heal is still as slow as it was previously.. which is to say its still far far far worse then base even with its 50% heal rate.

  14. #114
    Member Shakrith's Avatar
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    The SM armour changes are definitely a problem. Blast effect weapons are killing whole squads much more effectively than they ever ought to, and if you're against two or three guardian squads there's no way you can defend a position adequately.

  15. #115
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    @masterblaster upgraded Shees cost more than a RB


    Pray do tell, good sir, why do so many people insist on telling SM that "ASM are shock'n'awe troops that are not dedicated melee" when we point out that a 500/50 unit loses to a 400 or 300 unit, yet they completely reverse their argument when we apply the identical logic on Shees annihilating vehicles?

    @TS

    Real players do not play like AI. The difference between Sluggas/Banshees/etc. melting under your ranged firepower and chopping through SM like through melons is player aggression.

    People who start harassing SM at the first capping minutes will either get free kills on lonely Tac/Hero/Scout squads, or force blobbing from SM to just fight off a pair of sluggas, leaving the entire map open for them to cap.

  16. Dawn of War II Senior Member  #116
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    konfeta makes a very good first point. we should be looking at unit roles and not just costs. an RB is meant to be an anti-infantry vehicle, but upgraded shees is meant to be a hard counter to vehicles too. so... that's okay.

    however, ASM is not dedicated melee. sluggas are. so ASM being more expensive can lose to dedicated melee. that's the difference.

    @ pocktio
    the devs said themselves ASM aren't dedicated melee. they're disruption troops too.
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  17. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #117
    so amaze Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    Troubleshooter, have you actually played vs competant nid/ork players as SM yet? On Outer reaches? Its not at all how you'd expect.

  18. #118
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    No, really....
    ASM aren't dedicated melee. they're disruption troops too.
    So give them double jump back. Hell, give them a freaking triple jump if they remain at their current HP/Cost/DMG state. As it stands, "disrupting" is a 1 way trip in every sense of the phrase for these birdies. If we are paying 500/50 for a useless chew toy, it better do its "intended" role like a fucking pro.

  19. #119
    give ASMs blind nades that are usable on everything not only units in buildings (and a T1 upgrade)
    they would still loose against dedicated melee, but they could help out your ranged units in the fight against that melee

    unit synergy and stuff
    and take away the power weapons from raveners and posibly stormboyz
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  20. Dawn of War II Senior Member  #120
    Error Shifter Codex's Avatar
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    double jump would be fine with me. hell, i'd be fine if ASM got a slight buff in all areas. i just think that ASM should always lose to dedicated melee in 1v1, but not get wtfpwned.

  21. Dawn of War Senior Member  #121
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
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    Just had my first to players with a pulse. First Elf, second Ork. (Ts 18/24 respectively)

    The eldar gave me a bit of a run in early tier 1. Same with the ork, because you cant really fight shees or sluggas until you have terrain and upgrades to make it a fair fight.

    You know what turns it around... I shit you not... relays. They out heal the HQ by a decent margin.

    @Masterblaster... I assure you that was no joke... just did this twice in real combat and dominated every fight near my relays. 100%, even with nobs in the midst. Got the replays to prove it

    So, what I can see for sure is that FC players are going to be sucking wind unless they go early and often to the disruption attacks. The thing that is saving me is Plasma output from the TM and that relay healing/retreat point. Its fucking awesome. I took down 2x kans with just bolter fire and TM plas. (thats sorta not true, I got ML's late in the fight, but I could have danced them to death even without... its that good.)

    Apoth players will live and die by the ax and healing... because ya aint got the relay.

    SM need some love, but the TM is finally in a good spot even in 1v1. Relic, don't mess with my goodies... its been since vanilla WA that I felt on top of one of your games

    I suck with scout shotties, but I'm getting better.

    HBDevs are supurfluous when you have turrets... I suppose they would be good in buildings, but then I had a looted one-shot them in a building, so thats not a "go-to" plan

  22. #122
    SPACE MARINE PLAYERS BEWARE!

    I just played vs an AI. Got terminators with a heavy flamer. Then I met Raveners with shooty upgrade. They have hidden in to heavy cover, and started to shoot back at my termies.

    After a while they escaped (low on health, but still very much in one piece) and my termies had ~200 HP and one squad member was down.

    That was... Surprising

    Oh, there is no use with trying to escape with a ~400 HP FC while Banshees are half screen away. They will catch and slice you before long.

  23. #123
    Troubleshooter sure Love to see something which didnt work for me at all and isnt a random thing.

    well healing better not be.


    Grimdark ive had my tm killed mutiple times with him retreating as soon as I see the bloody shees and he started at 100% health

  24. Dawn of War Senior Member  #124
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
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    Blaster, let me get some more test games in and I'll do a TM pack.

    Last match going early relay vs. slugga spam/KN didn't save my tacs, but I did dance 2 sluggas around the relay and reinforcing while my TM merrily plinked them down to small numbers - and if my scouts hadn't bugged out, I think even losing one tac squad would still have found me winning the game.

    My bug report is in the tech-forum, and the bug replay that shows tacs making use of healing and dancing is in the battle archives.

    Edit : Just had another relay match vs. ts 24. First relay got over run... lost a tac squad... second held, and Dread + AC lead me to a VD victory.
    Last edited by Troubleshooter; 3rd Jul 09 at 6:28 AM.

  25. #125
    im not arguing they aint useful but you said they could meleee sluggas with 2 and not die :P they DIE :P

    Infact as you suggested the most useful thing is "retreating" units to the frontlines this is lol funny and could actually be a game changer, considering they take less damage while retreating techmarine has the best supply lines in game.

  26. Dawn of War Senior Member  #126
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
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    Well, its working for me so far

    Also, ASM beat shees at a relay. (!!!)

    Nevermind, I didn't get a good sample. (thanks BlueGhost)

    I'll keep trying
    Last edited by Troubleshooter; 3rd Jul 09 at 1:21 PM.

  27. #127
    Trouble can you post these replays (I don't doubt you, I wana watch you in action )

    Also when you say you beat sluggers at relay with tacs I presume they had no flamer or nob (no power weapons).

  28. #128
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    Some stuff I posted on the official site, tell me what you think (no ideas presented are original to me but rather gleaned from other posts and consolidated in one spot):

    I've heard some other ways to fix Tacs/ASM and I thought I'd throw them in here, too.

    1.) Make the Tac Sgt a T1 upgrade instead of T2. ATSKNF plus extra HP, extra melee damage and extra ranged DPS would make them viable in T1. ASM Sgt would likewise be really nice. Extra HP, extra melee DPS (with a power weapon), and Merciless Strike for crowd control. Honestly, this could work, although SM is still requiring a mountain of Power to counter basic troops.

    2.) If ASM are going to be shock troops that can't actually fight, make them the best damn jump troops in the game. Reduce Jump back to Beta levels (55 energy). They could double jump on stuff or at least jump in, disrupt, and jump out. They're not going to be mistaken for Warp Spiders at 55 energy. The problem with this, however, is that ASM remain made of wet tissue.

    3.) Toss Plasma guns down into T1. Right now, most of the other races have one or two ways to deal with Heavy Armor in T1. SM only have one (Flamers). Plasma helps fill that gap and give them additional DPS when they need it most. I'm on the fence with this one because few people would take Flamers anymore and 30 Power in T1 is a lot.

    4.) A neat idea that thinks outside the box: make HB Devs cheaper. One of the problems is melee dominates Scouts/Tacs in the very early going and once that hits critical mass, there's not much the SM can do. Let's say HB Devs are 20 power instead of 30. First off, they'd be the same power cost as Shotguns (which makes getting the first Shotgun a little less mandatory). Second, jump troops aren't prevalent yet (though they will be shortly). Good use of Tacs with the HB in support really shores up the melee weakness. As long as the Tacs operate in the HB's field of fire, most of their glaring weaknesses aren't nearly as pronounced. SM need those HB Devs to support way more than the other races need their suppression teams, atm. I think this could be a decent change.
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  29. Dawn of War Senior Member  #129
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
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    replays are up in the battle archives.

    Didn't get any TS 30 players yet.

  30. #130
    Member Goobers's Avatar
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    80% of Space Marines problems would be quickly go away if everything that gained Heavy Armour, got reverted back to its old armour type.

    They worked fine before getting heavy armour, they now get owned. Suddenly everything that used to kill Tacs got +50% more powerful against them on top of other buffs, while everything they used to be unable to kill Tacs became even less able.


    I wish they just balanced the game, instead of Winter Assaulting it and trying to completely reinvent it.

  31. #131
    why not just make sm dev not require power...

    Its not like no race prepatch couldnt beat a sm who used it(and tacs and asm were better not worse)
    without using there own version.

    another option.. which wont happen but sounds fun
    allow sm to dig-in
    They lay a sandbag building of say 100hp that melee units have to kill before they get the marines.

  32. #132
    Chappy FooF's Avatar
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    I thought that too Goobers, but the Armor type is only half the story. If you revert the armor type, Power Weapons don't do 125% damage and Explosive only does 100% as well. That's fine and all but the other side of the coin is that everything is simply doing a lot more damage.

    Sluggas are doing something like 60% more DPS now, Shees have always been doing awesome damage but now they can Wail and take more hits, Raveners were in T3 and have the same DPS as ASM and Stormboyz are much stronger now too. The stuff that Tacs and ASM used to be able to take on were buffed while they stayed the same. Their HP doesn't go as far as used to.

    Reverting the armor change hurts them against Sluggas, buffs them against Shees/Raveners/Stormbyoz and against Nades/Tanks later.

    A lot of people are asking for a "Power Armor" type that takes 75% from normal piercing and melee attacks and only 100% from Power weapons. Explosive can do 150% instead of 200%. It's basically the best of both armor worlds.

    All I can say is that they need more survivability in the 1.4 world.

  33. #133
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    No, really....
    I'd rather not have even more power expenditure in tier 1. It's laughably easy to deny SM building their power farm.

    One conclusion I can make about SM gameplay based on other people's posts and my games.

    >TS30
    Opponents cap, letting you get your power items and giving you somewhat of a competitive edge. Also, the number of morons who cap while getting shot at by Tacs/Shotties is baffling.

    <TS30
    Opponents send hero + squad at you from the beginning. If it's a WSE, Mekboy, or Ravener, they will be there before you are even halfway done capping your second point. You are immediately faced with the choice of sustaining heavy losses or backing off the cap point. Things go downhill from here as hero-melee unit harass is enough to lock you in while they cap the rest of the map and siphon reinforcements in.

    It's not *as* bad with other heroes because you have time to score a shotgun upgrade and have a fighting chances (i.e. defend you farm and mass shotguns).


    I guess giving Sarge upgrades in tier 1 will give an actual choice (Sarge evens the playing field against other melee), i.e. you are no longer forced to upgrade shotguns ASAP.

    Personally, I think we need all-req Devastators back. Remove the Power Cost, and bump it on the Targeters upgrades.
    Last edited by konfeta; 3rd Jul 09 at 7:25 AM.

  34. #134
    Member chandlerr_360's Avatar
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    I'm not really seeing the problem that you guys are. A vanilla tac squad can still put up a fight against a vanilla shee squad, and with a sergeant it's no contest. Early game, a tac squad with scout squad support also takes care of it. Sluggaz are a little bit tougher to deal with, but can be deal with the same way.

    The problem with PC's, nades, and rockets insta gibbing tacs, devs, and ASM's is a legit problem however. Three shots from a Plasma cannon against a upgraded tac squad can almost completely wipe it out.
    "This is the bitterest pain among men, to have much knowledge but no power" - Herodotus

  35. Dawn of War Senior Member  #135
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
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    OctoRex just made really good point though. If Shees are this good now, with everyone set on noob, what do you think its going to be like in a month?

    I'm afraid that either shees need some light nerfing, or Tacs/ASM are going to need more survivability. Perhaps a 4'th squaddie?

  36. #136
    3.) Toss Plasma guns down into T1. Right now, most of the other races have one or two ways to deal with Heavy Armor in T1. SM only have one (Flamers).
    actualy flamers aren't more powerfull against heavy armor, it's only ork burnas that do additional dmg in melee iirc

  37. #137
    i'm not sure why people expect a asm ie a shock/jump troop to stand up to shees a dedicated melee troop
    That's poor logic. Banshees have abilities too (suppress/FoF). Just because ASM jump, they shouldn't be gimped. It's also very unfluffy.

    From my perspective, I don't know why you'd expect a skinny little girl squad in no armor (I can see her naval) to beat out a unit with actual armor that costs more.

    Edit: Here's another one!

    their role is take out setup teams and plats, stun an early vehicle or force a retreat of a zoan that is supporting the opponents force.
    Are you kidding? How do you manage to put your shoes on in the morning with a head like that? ASMs are intended by the designers to be a counter to platforms and zoanthropes only? I can see you managed to light up a few neurons and recall that they also have melta bombs. However, you still fail because you should have noticed that this implies they are intended to fill a larger role: dedicated melee unit that keeps things off the other guys.

    The game's borked, kids. Stop playing the sycophant and pretending it's okay.

    OctoRex just made really good point though. If Shees are this good now, with everyone set on noob, what do you think its going to be like in a month?
    I would hope they rebalance the game such that spamming banshees isn't an EZ-Mode win for eldar, and that space marines get their teeth back. However, having seen what the balance team thinks is a presentable game, I actually expect most people to have abandoned the game as a joke, and waiting for Starcraft 2 to be released so that they can enjoy a decently balanced RTS.

    Sorry to be harshing the vibe, but as I said...disappointed doesn't even begin to cover it.
    Last edited by BudgetMessiah; 3rd Jul 09 at 8:12 AM.

  38. #138
    Firstly,we ignore fluff in this game,secondly asm should be able to die vs dedicated melle uints just as dedicated melee units will die from ranged.Eldar do not have jump squads in t1 so it might be ok ot have banshees a bit more powerful then sluggas and ASM.

    I agree that the asm could be cheaper and that the shee could have a power cost to prevent spam.

  39. #139
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    However, you still fail because you should have noticed that this implies they are intended to fill a larger role: dedicated melee unit that keeps things off the other guys.
    Except the dev OUTRIGHT STATED that was shotgun scouts job...

    So it is YOU that fails here because you failed to pay attention when the dev's laid out the gameplan.

    The problem is that right now scouts really aren't working as advertised, so they're nowhere near the massive hard counter to melee they're made out to be and thats just messing up everything else, (no questions their are issues with ASM and Tac's, but generally most of those are confined to T2).
    I don't know what i'm talking about, ignore me.

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  40. #140
    No, we don't ignore fluff. Hence burnas are power weapons and barbed stranglers hurt now.

    The notion of the banshee being a "dedicated melee unit" is a joke made up by some idiot who didn't realize that she has a movement ability (fleet of foot) and a special attack (scream) exactly like the ASM. So, if ASMs aren't dedicated melee, I guess neither are banshees. If you wanna see a dedicated melee unit, look up Hormagaunts and Sluggas. Oh, and the non-dedicated banshee beats those, too.

    Also, by your logic, why do stormboys seem to fare better than ASMs if they are a more clearly similar "non-dedicated" troop?

    Except the dev OUTRIGHT STATED that was shotgun scouts job...
    Then he doesn't understand how the game works, or is trying to take TT and twist it around into something that suits his playstyle, but isn't 40k, and isn't a playable/enjoyable game.

    The devs also stated that they intended to give players more than one option in their build order. I guess you missed that part, too. Thanks for playing, Slappy.

  41. Dawn of War II Senior Member  #141
    Error Shifter Codex's Avatar
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    okay, banshees' abilities FoF help them get into CC faster, and scream helps to keep them in CC. hence dedicated melee unit.

    ASM have a jump ability to disrupt, chase down zoeys, etc. banshees do NOT have a suppression breaking platform disrupting ability. hence ASM are niche role units.

    stormboyz need to be brought into line with ASMs cost/efficiency wise. stormboyz should be there to disrupt plats and allow the sluggaz i.e. the real damage dealers to close in.

  42. #142
    Banshees and ASMs both have two clickables which allow them to change the shape of battle. And yet, you're trying to equivocate that away?

    Nice try, but I've had my coffee this morning. I'm wise to that trick. Either they're both dedicated, or neither. You simply cannot have it both ways.

  43. #143
    SM can no longer melee...but their Tank has improved...I get it => SM are the new Imperial Guard.

    Solution: Paint all your units in different shades of Jungle Green and spam Tanks !

    Relic should also consider reversing the Intro Movie, the opening scene (with all the dead SM) should now be the final scene instead

    "Come Now, Your time is at hand" - Natasha Kerensky

  44. #144
    or maybe the asm needs to be brought to line with the shees and stormboyz. Really i am baffled why they have power weapons....Stormboyz are just Sluggas with a jetpack!
    Acceptance- Seeing how hopefully shitty you are and moving on.

  45. #145
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    Then he doesn't understand how the game works, or is trying to take TT and twist it around into something that suits his playstyle, but isn't 40k, and isn't a playable/enjoyable game.
    To use one of my mums favirote phrases.

    Tough s*&t, learn to deal with it.


    The devs have mande their decishion learn to live with it, because i don't see them changing it. That means the only dedicated counter SM get to melee are Scouts and HBD. ASM are not a melee unit killer and thus are not expected to be able to hurt dedicated melee units.

    ASM are now 25% TOUGHER vs. basic shooting and support squads melee attacks, and have the jump to migate a large chunk of possibble incoming fire.


    Right now the wholeissue with T1-T1.5 tacs and ASM isn't that they're total crap, (thouh i do still question their cost effectivness), it's that melee isn't what they're good against and scouts/HBD aren't a hard enough counter to melee ATM to force players to mix it up with ranged units against SM, so scouts dominate and tac's and ASM suck since your trying to use them against the very units supposed to counter them.

  46. #146
    Your mum sounds like a very wise person.

    The problem there is that my "dealing with it", along with my friends list, which was near-fully active after the beta was released, will be to stop playing. That's what happens when a game sucks. People leave it alone. This is already happening; my friends list is back to 1.3.2 levels within less than 24 hours. I guess they saw all they needed to.

    If you'd like this to become a niche game with no one playing, then by all means : ignore me.

  47. #147
    Anyone claiming asm shouldnt beat shees can jump can explain this.

    Why do asm cost more req more power and more pop cap.

    Answer seems to be
    "because they can jump"

    Well
    Oky dokey
    Lets give shees a warleap attack(jump) knock there price up to match asm and watch the eldar players SCREAM about how expensive they are, how they delay teching.

    I could handle shees beating asm
    if it wasnt for the fact that in both anti melee and anti vehicle role they outshine the more expensive unit, despite the more expensive unit having a special upgrade designed to give them anti vehicle ability.

  48. Dawn of War Senior Member  #148
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
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    New replay is up.

    This one is 6p, angels gate, all relic news dolts.

    This was the second (and better) of our two 6p games. First one had some team mismatching going on... we cleaned it up for the second, and it was a lot of cat/mouse/elephant play. Tons of gibbs.

    If 6p games are going to be this messy, I'm going to like this patch... just need to tidy up some balance issues to make SM function on their own in the field IMO.

  49. #149
    Member Carl's Avatar
    Join Date
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    The problem there is that my "dealing with it", along with my friends list, which was near-fully active after the beta was released, will be to stop playing. That's what happens when a game sucks. People leave it alone. This is already happening; my friends list is back to 1.3.2 levels within 24 hours. I guess they saw all they needed to.

    If you'd like this to become a niche game with no one playing, then by all means : ignore me.
    You assume that:

    A) everyone is about to stop playing. I doubt thats the case at all. the reponse on these forums is largely posotive, yes every race has a problem unit or two, but ONLY SM is attracting this much flack

    B) you assume the problem is ASM. It's not. ASM have a clearly defined role in the SM army, but until your opponnent starts finding a reason to feild those units and not spam melee at you thats going to leave them and Tac's sitting on the fence. The metagame with SM does stink right now, but it's not the lack of ASM melee thats the issue, it's the lack of melee counters.

    While i'm going to go into the conclushions in greater detail in a seperate thread shortly, the very first thing i did upon getting the beta was fire up a game vs the easy AI and see how each unit ACTUALLY performed compared to how the dev's stated they should work, only ASM saw littile practise, (gonna try them soon). The fact is scouts are a long way off what the devs descibed in terms of HOW they fufil the anti-melee role. And HBD alone aren't enough IMHO.

    Why do asm cost more req more power and more pop cap.

    Answer seems to be
    "because they can jump"
    Because they utterly murder their target units, (i.e. ranged and setup units), to a degree banshee's don't.

    Right now the basic underlying SM balance is:

    Melee and ranged murder ranged, Anti-melee murders melee.

    i.e. use ASM and Tac's to murder his non-melee units, and scouts to keep the melee off your tac's/ASM. Right now it's the scouts that are the weak link.

    in the nid vs eldar battle rep 1X termaguant was murdering 1X shees straight up for no losses, scouts can't do tha same and arguably cost more because of the power cost.

  50. #150
    I don't even know where to begin...how about this : easy computers, eh? That's how you evaulated peformance? That's what you thought was a good way to spend time with the new patch?

    No offense, but I think you're approaching this game from a different level.

    As to the game's appeal and popularity, I'm assuming nothing. These are observations of people online whom I know and whom I don't. The number of custom games up right now is about 1/10 what it was when the patch was out. How else do you explain the lack of interest so soon?

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