SM First Impressions

[Quixote]

you know what Sm need (along with some adjustemnets to the existing units)? Another unit at T1, the veteran tac sqaud from the single player just with every unit having a power axe and plasma pistol, so basicly ASMs without the jump buth with power weapons, the dedicated melee of the SM army, same cost as the regular tacs, maybe 50 req more

This is truth. Why again can't SM have a dedicated melee unit? They definitely have them in TT.

The core principle of SM is quality over quantity, not that they suck in melee.

I think we could live with Heavy Armor on tacs IF explosive damage against them was reduced and a slight HP buff. Power weapon effectiveness I understand, that makes sense and is a good counter. It's absolutely unacceptable to have tacs so vulnerable to explosive damage when one of their most important roles is AV.

Essentially:
1) Introduce a dedicated melee unit that doesn't require power (Vastly preferable IMHO) OR drastically increase the melee effectiveness of ASM to the point where they can stand up to enemy dedicated melee units and fight them to at the very least a slight loss (meaning that with some ranged support they would win) in T1.

2) Reduce the effectiveness of explosive damage against Heavy Armor SM units

3) Slightly reduce the DPS of shotguns

4) Either dramatically increase the melee resistance of melee heroes OR dramatically increase their damage. I think the former makes more sense.

[MasterBlaster]

the fact is relics basic reasoning behind ASM not being able to take on dedicated melee units is flawed.

ASM cost energy
the so called "dedicated" melee units dont.

even if asm beat shees on a 1:1 basis the cost of shees compared to asm means that if sm outnumbers or matches you its because you screwed up.

Even if ASM beat shees 1:1 they could still lose for cost, giving eldar the advantage.

[BudgetMessiah]

The reasoning that places ASM outside the role of "dedicated melee unit" is flawed. ASMs are a dedicated melee unit. If not, then what's with all the chainswords? If not, then what other melee unit do space marines get?

How is the Banshee dedicated with her various spells and AV capability? How is the ravener or stormboy squad dedicated, which they must be to justify how badly they can beat down ASMs.

Hormagaunts and sluggas are more clearly "dedicated" to melee than stormboys, raveners, and banshees. Why don't the vanilla versions of the former 2 trump the latter 3 non-specialized units?

"Dedicated melee" is a misnomer and a flimsy memetic construct cooked up to justify gimping space marines. I'm not buying in, sorry.

MasterBlaster's other point about cost is the more germane argument. Perhaps it would be more productive if people stopped jabbering about balance in terms of bullshit concepts and started looking at cost and value. That's ultimately what the metagame is about.

[MasterBlaster]

budget thats what "dedicated melee" means
ohh boy philosophy on the DOW forums.... never thought I would see the day...

Dedicated melee units are surposed to be units that for cost only do melee, so for balance they beat other units that just happen to be reasonble or good at melee because that other unit has other abilities that make it worth its cost, even if both units cost the same.

Problem is, relic took the term dedicated melee and forget the reasoning behind that term.

You know what would be awesome.
If when asm jump rose petals fall from the sky and when they land just before each banshee decapitates them they present her with a rose.

and meanwhile the eldar player is to busy laughing there ass off your shotgun scouts infiltrate right up close and blow everything into itty bitty bits blow the smoke from there guns twirl them around and then lean on them nochantely looking bored.
Resulting in the eldar playing saying you suck and promptly exiting the game.

[BudgetMessiah]

My point was that all of these units fill multiple roles, except maybe sluggas and hormagaunts, which AFAIK are limited to running up and chopping/scything you. Banshees scream, raveners tunnel, stormboyz jump.

By the "dedicated melee" argument, hormagaunts should rightly beat stormboyz, raveners, and banshees. As this isn't the case, the "dedicated melee" argument is bullshit.

What we are left with, then, is value and cost. I'm suggesting we balance with regard to that, as opposed to some poorly thought-out fantasy scheme of there being some special kind of "dedicated melee", and that somehow banshees fit into that role despite evidence to the contrary.

[Facelessone]

ASM are not dedicated melee unit cuz they can jump,shees cant jump so....
Banshees have abilites just like asm,ork boyz and so on.

We ignore any fluff in this game since there is noway fluff can be represented in online gaming,people ask too much.

Fluff is POSSIBLE within the boundaries of singlepalyer and is not not in multiplayer.

[Aokin]

they teleport and stun vehicles, in effect they disrupt (or choose) positions and stun vehicles. In these respects they are above and beyond exclusive/streamlined/'dedicated' melee units.

whether their current status is balanced or not, I would not know, having seen maybe one squad so far.

[BudgetMessiah]

ASM are not dedicated melee unit cuz they can jump,shees cant jump so....

Banshees have FoF. Warp spiders can teleport, why do they outdamage other squads? Your argument fails, but thanks for reinforcing my point.

they [ASMs] teleport and stun vehicles, in effect they disrupt (or choose) positions and stun vehicles.

Banshees fleet of foot, suppress, and can destroy vehicles with their power weapons. That's multiple roles. Warp spiders stun vehicles, so let's nerf them down in the same way as ASMs, making them ineffective against infantry to take into account this extra role. They also teleport way too much, so they should do as much damage as a scout bolter.

See what I did there?

Also ASMs don't stun vehicles, they just slow them. But I get what you're trying to say.

[Aokin]

that is not roles per se, but abilities, which are primarily streamlined to a particular function.

[BudgetMessiah]

Poe-tay-toe. Pot-ot-oh.

[General_II]

What exactly is that function? Being the proverbial jack of all trades, -- master of none? A unit that isn't cost-effective in any role?

Regardless of a unit's *role*, the unit needs to be useful (read: cost-effective) for something, or it is useless.

[Facelessone]

Warpspiders are t2 my friend,shees have fof with upgrade and the anti vehicle attack comes with an upgrade too.ASM do the same with upgrade.

Again,a price decrease maybe for -25r -15p is enough no need to make the SM blobby again.

[Cadian Guard]

so to make them less blobby you must make all their units suck?

also define "dedicated melee".

[Quixote]

There's one key difference between ASM and Shees, Sluggas, and Raveners. Power weapons.

I was agreeing with the proposal that there be a SM T1 (NOT T1.5 like ASM are) that is melee capable, AKA - they have power weapons.

We COULD give ASM power weapons, but the fundamental problem is their power cost. Simply put, there's no way you can get them out to help deal with enemy melee units since all of those enemy melee units cost far less power (if any at all).

I'd prefer a solution where we get a non-jump melee unit for less cost than ASM. How about this? Tactical Marines get a new T1 wargear, 50/10, that equips them with power axes or power swords and bolt pistols, and also gives them a reasonable HP increase.

ASM also gain an increased effectiveness in melee , and their Meltabomb upgrade increases in cost by 15/10 and now also gives them power weapons, making them an additional option for AV in T2. Or if you'd prefer we can make it a T1 upgrade that JUST gives them power weapons. Essentially you'll be paying about 50/30 more for a jump pack, which seems like a reasonable price, compared to melee tacs.

Shotguns are reduced in effectiveness and cost. They're effective at taking out low HP high number horde melee units, while melee tacs and ASM do better against higher quality melee opponents (Ravs, Shees et al).

[General_II]

ASM do the same with upgrade.

What upgrade, exactly. A sergeant? Upgrades still don't put ASM on the same playing field of most un-upgraded tier one units. Stormboys, shees, etc, are going to beat ASM for a lesser cost, consistently.

[BudgetMessiah]

What does tier have to do with anything? We're talking about DEDICATION, aren't we? That's the test to see if a unit is balanced, isn't it?

Oh, you mean it is, unless it means a change you don't like.

My point stands. Balance on value, not on pretense and hand-waving. Cries like "Oh noes, blobby space marines!" can't be taken seriously. Sorry.

[Codex]

sigh budget... i thought we already HAD this conversation.

shees are dedicated melee because their FoF doesn't fulfil the same purpose as jump. jump is similar to raveners though. stormboyz have a jump too... FoF doesn't allow them to bypass devs and jump on them. ravener "jump" and asm jump have disruption properties. stormboyz cant goomba stomp. shees have nothing- in fact, FoF is an ability that is shared by almost all upgraded eldar infantry.

in chat you said that all orks have waaagh so that doesn't count. all nids have synapse so surely that doesn't count. as well as eldar. they all have FoF. so if FoF doesn't count, now you have an ability that allows them to keep their enemies in CC for longer or force a retreat and get a 30% bonus. that doesn't make them a multipurpose melee, even with AV capabilities. that makes them damn good melee specialists.

warp spiders can teleport, but as such are paper thin (or are supposed to be). so they receive glass cannon status.

IMO ASM and raveners should be brought into line with each other. stormboyz should have a bit more combat effectiveness for lack of goomba stomp. eldar have no disruption infantry, as such they get a damn good melee dedicated unit. and as far as SM go, they just don't have a dedicated melee troop instead using disruption to buy time for their ranged units to kill. new SM philosophy?

don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that ASM should be this bad. i'm saying they should get buffed up to the point that they should lose slightly to dedicated melee.

EDIT: dedicated melee is a melee unit that has no other purpose other than running up into the face of enemy and meleeing them. otherwise you can take disruption melee which have abilities like jump and merciless strike and burrow and whatnot so they can disrupt troops from doing damage back- but won't stand toe-to-toe with dedicated melee.

[Facelessone]

Dedicated melee is a unit that excels at killing in melee.ASM can jump so that they cant be dedicated as such.Eldar do not have jump units untl T2.
Shees should own ASM.


And while shees need upgrade for fof,asm can jump from the beginning.
The power weapons idea is bad from shees,no need to screw wehicles with that.Otherwise ASM are fine,a decrease in cost is enough.

[Cadian Guard]

@ OMG

cept the shees all have power weapons if i remember correctly.

also ravenors are incredibly OP since they can disperse and evidently have a ranged attack that resembles a rapid fire plasma weapon...according to some people on this forum.

ASM should have alot of hp but have a basic dps output. that fits in with the SM tactics of having alot of hp, but not lawl-tastic dps. The way they are set up now is lawl-tastic scout shotty dps (thanks stefan) and aweful heavy infantry.

@ Face

and ASM dont kill using melee? the goomba stomp means nothing unless your the ravenor and can disperse/rape on a far different level than ASM can. Hell i just played a game and made life a living hell for my opponent who used SM against my orks. and i was using more shootas than sluggas since i heard alot about the uber stefan scouts...

[BudgetMessiah]

Lies! I have no friends and talk to no one outside this forum!

Banshees' fleet of foot allows them to more easily flank a squad. The platform then has to unset itself, or become tied up and/or die to the banshees. It's not an instant disruption, but it's also much cheaper to do energy-wise, and if you do it right it's just as effective (maybe moreso because you're not suicidally jumping through platform fire...yeah they still hurt on the way in if you're not flanking). With the extra energy, the banshees can then do other things as well, like suppress. Level 1 ASMs are little more than a "dedicated melee unit" after that one trick. Banshees do not suffer from this, and they also have spells with turn the tide in their favor. Therefore they are not dedicated.

My point was, and is, that all these units we're discussing (raveners, banshees, ASMs, stormboys) have abilities beyond their melee that allow combat to be dynamic. So, they should be roughly on-par in terms of cost and effectiveness. Right now, ASMs cost a lot and aren't very effective relative to their peers (and if you still think they're not peers, well...you're wrong, see above). The balance was just about right 1 on 1 in 1.3.2 (vanilla banshees beat vanilla ASMs there, but it was close, and with upgrades it came down to micro). Now, banshees feel more "right" in that they don't turn into sprays of blood when engaged by enemy forces when it's not 1 on 1, but they too easily beat a more expensive unit which they should have some parity.

That's an imbalance.

Edit:

Dedicated melee is a unit that excels at killing in melee

Circular logic, thy name is Facelessone!

So, in other words, because ASMs are crap/garbage right now, they aren't dedicated melee? I agree!

[General_II]

Let's say that ASM are supposed to lose slightly to dedicated melee units - I'm fine with that. However, they should lose on a cost-effective bases to dedicated melee units.

For instance, just using hypothetical stats:

500 req ASM squad should lose slightly to a dedicated melee 500 req slugga squad.

A 500 req ASM squad should not lose slightly to a dedicated melee 300 req slugga squad.

The ASM is specialized for melee, and should not be penalized for being "not dedicated melee" by getting defeated cost-effectively by nearly every melee unit in the game. Another factor people forget is that ASM should lose slightly to other units alone. Right. That's fine. But jump should be an extraneous factor that can help the unit win instead of "not lose badly."

The performance of the unit must be contingent solely on cost. A counter is designed to defeat another unit of similar cost or investment by performing in a way that is most cost-effective.

I'm fine with unit classifications, but the costs must make sense!

[Cadian Guard]

also we must consider what the ASM face. i think shees get power swords, sluggas can get burnas which double as a power weapon, ravenors...well they are OP, stormboyz get power weapons. Stormboyz and Sluggas not only have access to power weapons, but have WAAAGH to make them even more killy while shees have their pinning attack of pain to slow the enemy units. As for ravenors...well they can either gun everythin down with plasma rapid wpns of doom or just goomba....jump? tunnel?

only use i see from the ASM jump is to run them into melee then jump when in the melee and send shees and sluggas flying, but that defeats the purpose of being able to fly when your only going to use it to move a centimeter and disperse whats right in front of you.....

[BudgetMessiah]

Yes! Precisely! Costs must make sense. The whole discussion of "metagame" before the patch was released was essentially about game theory, which a lot of comp sci majors are probably familiar with, but they actually borrowed the entire concept from economics. It is the study of cost effectiveness and return on investment. That's ultimately what an RTS is about. I know...sounds kinda boring when it's put that way, but it is what it is.

Without this, you're left with a game that's not worth playing.

[MasterBlaster]

I think a major error is saying asm need a buff.

Eldars only strat is now shees because everything else compared to it sucks.
That is proof of imbalance in Shees.
they need a nerfin untill such time as eldar actually build other units tier1.

[Cadian Guard]

wait if a bunch of units are good then is it a good idea to nerf them and not buff the weaker....?

[Troubleshooter]

Really, I dont care about the labels "dedicated", "occasional", "affraid to commit"... w/e. The core issue isn't whether or not ASM fit a label, its whether or not they perform for cost as-is. The bottom line is that they dont. Simply put, nothing wearing Mk7 Power armor right no performs "for cost" due to the sudden proliferation of power weapons.

The problem isn't any single units design philosophy, its simply how much choppy shit is out there to make you wish you bought more scouts.

So, while I can fiddle with my Build Order to muscle ASM into the big picture, its alot like trying to force double HBDevs into a build order too... its not easy, and its not going to reward you enough for the effort.

ASM are too weak in the face of the numbers of Shees/Sluggas/Gaunts out there. Plain and simple. So now that we have that out of the way, how do you balance them.

We have 2 weeks to come up with an answer before relic puts this patch to bed.... less nit-picking, more thinking... if you please.

For me, it boils down to price vs. potency. 500/50 is stupid expensive for what you get. You almost have to get 2 squads to make either of them any good. Having played IG this way, I assure you its a bad idea... massing for effectiveness is a dead end.

Either reduce price/reinforce costs (not so fluffy) or buff them through melee-aura damage reduction to keep their Health in line with non-power weapons but leaving them hard-countered by plasma.

The same goes for Tacs. (though I really like the idea of another starting squaddie, making them 4 from the HQ + Sargent later.)

[MasterBlaster]

Cadian Guard, guardins got a buff, before 1.4 they were the main unit eldar spammed eldar didnt have any real trouble before patch.

Now guardins dont get spamed, its only shees.
Yet guardins got a buff, so the logic behind this isnt Guardins must suck and need buffing, its shees are to powerful.

[BudgetMessiah]

I would like to see how the space marines played out if they had a fourth member per vanilla squad at the same cost. Hell, it couldn't be any less balanced than the current build. By the numbers, it would probably even things out very well.

I also wouldn't mind seeing ASM sargeants moved down to Tier 1. They're too valuable to the squad to have to wait until Tier 2.

[Facelessone]

@BudgetMessiah
At best ignore his insolence.



ASM need only a decrease in price,no need to overbuff them.

Shees should own asm in 1vs1,shees need a power price,.that is all.

no need for a buff bait on sm.At least they are beatable and they have no blobs.

I would call for a nerf on thescout and increase the overall hp of some units because they were double nerfed with the decrease of the hp heal rate.

[Troubleshooter]

Now guardins dont get spamed, its only shees.

Deionarra builds more GU's than Shees, and its actually harder to deal with IMO.

[MasterBlaster]

I thought guardins with grenades were op before 1.4 :P
but thats not what we were talking about, I was trying to explain why reducing the effectiveness of shees is the logical thing to do over buffing asm.

of course logic isnt around it went out the door months ago.

Sluggas were good tier1 they just sucked come tier2-3
so relic increases thre tier1 damage by almost 50%? isnt it?

[stranger]

Funny how after all the blabber about making the sms feel epic, this patch made them feel like dow1.

I personaly wouldn't mind if they gave us the melee resistance aura the marines lost due to the shift to heavy armor.

[FooF]

GU DPS is nothing to ignore, which people tend to do with a Shee squad on them (as in, go Shee then GU, rather than Shee, Shee).

Again, Tacs/ASM need loving, irregardless of all this "role" talk. They need more HP or more DPS. I'd prefer HP because quite frankly, they still do decent DPS. With the plethora of absolutely monster melee out there, the "non-specialized" Tacs and ASM are crap.

I don't want a reduction in cost. They need to be tougher, not more throw-away.

[MasterBlaster]

they are epic
EPIC FAIL

[Aokin]

if only Eldar players would be as vocal

[BudgetMessiah]

An increase in toughness would also be a good solution, like FooF's been saying since yesterday. Weren't you suggesting a pretty significant increase in HP, something to the tune of 50% to make things balanced? Is that correct with respect to the increases in damage taken from explosives and other sources?

What do you think of a fourth member, FooF? A 33% increase in damage and health?

[PhobosMoon]

I think its really stupid that everything especially SM's seem like a glass cannon.. When even in first t1, where units are suppose to be the least powerful.. The 500 req elite 3 squad tacticals go down like they just were hit with fully upgraded nobs.. It gets even worse later on where it feels like melee heroes for the SM is a complete liability due to things like warp spiders and the like doing insane damage against them, before they can even get into range.. I mean to me it feels like the game has been made into Starcraft in the sense guys can die almost instantly.. While unlike Starcraft, losing units is no where near the loss of it in this game.. If you lose 2 sqauds in the opening minutes of the game or even mid game its just about game over for you. Especially as SM when they are so expensive and few in number.

[FooF]

I said increase Tacs to 450 per model, ASM to 500 per model. Comparatively speaking that's a 28% increase and a 25% increase, respectively.

The proliferation of power weapons in T1 is really what's doing them in, though. All a health increase does is even out the bonus damage from Power weapons. It basically makes their effective HP the same as it is now (350 and 400) instead of dropping it 20%, like it is currently.

DPS-wise, again, SM is not about out-DPS'ing their opponents. They outlast because they're so tough. They're only mediocre in the DPS-department but that's fine since anything more would make them OP. Right now, they don't outlast anything.

[BudgetMessiah]

My mistake, I should have re-read that more carefully. A 25-ish % increase does sound more reasonable than 50%. They definitely need something, and I agree that Space Marines should be tougher than they are damaging, as opposed to Eldar who should be fast and powerful offensively, but fragile relative to the Imperium. That's pretty much how they're flavored in TT.

[Facelessone]

That's an imbalance.

Edit:
Quote:
Dedicated melee is a unit that excels at killing in melee

Circular logic, thy name is Facelessone!



If you had actually a brain it would be easier to understand rock-paper-scissor game logic.There is no need to say more of sucking sucker.

[Troubleshooter]

I said increase Tacs to 450 per model, ASM to 500 per model. Comparatively speaking that's a 28% increase and a 25% increase, respectively.

I think that would make tacs and ASM impossible to counter without power weapons or plasma though. Tougher via anti-melee aura would solve many early game issues, and late game (Looteds, preds...) can be managed by tweaking those specific relationships.

Not sure though... guess I need to get a better feel for how tacs face down standard ranged infantry now.

[Cr4tZ]

A HP increase would definitely do wonders. would give SM more time to dish out damage before you need to retreat.

Edit: I don't think it would make them impossible to counter without power weapons still. Tacs still cost a lot so its easy to outnumber them too. Besides, theres still lots of power weapons around to counter them with.

[Todehy]

ASM should have alot of hp but have a basic dps output. that fits in with the SM tactics of having alot of hp, but not lawl-tastic dps. The way they are set up now is lawl-tastic scout shotty dps (thanks stefan) and aweful heavy infantry.

this....

A 25-ish % increase does sound more reasonable than 50%. They definitely need something, and I agree that Space Marines should be tougher than they are damaging, as opposed to Eldar who should be fast and powerful offensively, but fragile relative to the Imperium.

this...

A HP increase would definitely do wonders. would give SM more time to dish out damage before you need to retreat.

and this...


now someone call task3r or somebody please. This should be adressed.

[BudgetMessiah]

Another possibility is to just do away with the exotic armor type and rebalance the squads with the old-style standard infantry armor. All the power weapon counters are novel, but do you really need to worry about tac blobs in this version?

Tyranids can now disrupt handily with raveners, and those spore mines are looking pretty handy in a pinch with their extra big explosive option.

Eldar have a banshee that can close to melee, scream at tier 1, and cripple any tac blob with suppression. They also have grenades to shock and rangers are viable in a T1 build order, allowing them to whittle down a mass of marines.

Orks have those crazy new stikkbombs...'Nuff said there. They also have viable stormboyz to quickly close and/or disrupt with an exploding ork.

So, do we really need to fix this twice?

[Troubleshooter]

but do you really need to worry about tac blobs in this version?

Late game tac blobs are just as bad as they ever were. Nukes are fewer and farther between too... add in a single shotty for massive knock back and really a properly massed tac blob will pwn in whole new ways.

ASM... not so much

[GrimDark]

Or, perchaps there are too many power weapons out there right now? Lets say that only Nob leaders have power weapons/AG Warriors/Banshee... Exarch(?) have them.

There would be still that problem with tank shots vs them... Modify the "heavy inf" class?

[Coffee]

My first impression about SM: orks and nidz need their T1 power weapons removed. They don't need them. I feel sorry for the poor tac squads.

Shotgun squads are incredibly effective. Their right-outside-melee-range shotgun damage is humongous.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

My first impressions:

*Techmarine is really strong now. Great firepower, and if you let him get a venerable he will wreck your shit.

*Force Commander is... interesting. Banshees and sluggas are too strong against the FC, unfortunately. However, his tier 1 wargear is awesome now (like the Storm Shield and Iron Halo). He can't function well outside the main force anymore, but with his support your Tacs are much tougher.

The biggest problem I have with the FC is people simply ignore the force commander and go after your other units while the FC is slooowly chasing them. (This is one reason the Storm Shield is good.).

On the other hand, For the Emperor can be devastating if you use it at the right time, especially on heavy bolter squads.

*Tac weakness in melee is far overstated in this thread. They are still decent. The problem is that they arn't good enough, meaning you will have to retreat reasonably early to get the squad out because of how good Gaunts, Shees, Sluggas, Stormboyz etc. are at running down retreating units.

*Scoutspam sucks. Srsly. Scouts get butchered in ranged contests against balanced forces, simply because an exposed scout squad dies so damn fast. I haven't tried it myself but I've played against a couple people who tried it. However, I do think shotguns do slightly too much damage, especially against commanders.

[Hirmetrium]

My opinion of SM is starting to change, but that early game is so brutal its not fair tbh. You can't mix and match like other races can with melee/ranged, so its ranged/ranged/ranged... until you have enough power for melee.

[BudgetMessiah]

I should probably play more with the Force Commander, but I've found that he's not so bad if you manage to keep all your guys in a kinda scrum (yank + rugby term = lol?), so that some major portion of the banshees are getting tossed around by his Battlecry, which also makes your other troops hit a bit harder. Scouts are also necessary, and it's necessary to keep them out of the melee and shooting, but I've surprised one or two overconfident eldar who charged me full on with banshees. Of course this flaw in their playstyle might also be coloring my opinion: an arrogant eldar tends to be a dead one.