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I don't know why people aren't going crazy about this at the moment? Maybe because it's not widely abused yet, but massed scouts in 3v3 is ridiculous.
If they mass shotguns, you have nothing you can do to stop them really. Dozens of scout squads on the field, all armed with nasty shotguns is scarier than anything i've seen yet in 1.4.
What's you're thoughts on this, and has anyone experienced this yet?
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Lol what race do you play? Scout spam is really the only viable option SM have atm since every other race minces their tacs in melee and beats them at ranged. however scouts arent that hard to deal with
Yes I have, and it is really unpleasant to have 6.5 speed cloaked killing machines, with grenades. 80% of our 2v2 games are against double techmarine with scout spam and maybe one missile tac, then predators. Too bad, as the beta is supposed to hit all races in order to find the glitches and balance issues, and if everyone just scout spams to win, then they are missing the objective of the beta. Scouts are already deemed overpowered.
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I think the beta is more about the players helping balance the whole mess of a game, and as such it has achieved its goal- it's crystal clear where the devs were a bit heavy-handed, what can be abused the easiest, etc. At least I hope it's the case...
#5
Shotguns are currently overpowered at mid-range I think, but Scout spam is easily countered. What race are you playing?
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I am extremely surprised at the state of the balance in this patch...it's almost as if someone at the helm was drunk.
To be fair, they made some really big changes to how the game plays out...this imbalance is to be expected...thus a beta patch.
All the more reason to prolong the beta.
10 day beta implies Relic is confident with game balance and that only minor adjustments/bugs need to be fixed. That seems to be very much not the case.
Yes, they can "patch down the road." But how many people are going to stick around for a hypothetical patch later if the beta is not given enough time/attention?
I fully agree, but with the state of SM, it makes me wonder if anyone actually playtested it despite saying they did - there's some pretty severe issues there.
Scouts are pretty easy to get around atleast for me as nids, over gaunt them use bs gun or get reavnors on their asses.
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Tell me, early game, what is an SM supposed to do to counter mass scouts? They chew through Tac's and ASM like nobodies business, and likewise even a FC cant really get to them pre-teleporter. They likewise can just cloak and wtfpwn devastater squads.
only thing u can do is get a razorback lol... or a turret if your techmarine, or the old spam back...
#13
Tacs + Dev or Tacs + ASM will both beat Scout spam. Just keep the Scouts at long range.
#14
Dev? Infiltrate just counters that and ASM, while useful, has to fight through 2x Scouts+Shotties for cost.
Slugga and banshee + ranger spam beats it. Even with shotguns you only have 1 shot/squad/battle , and if u miss it you're dead. Make them retreat, then just tech to deff .
#16
Keep your starting Scout squad (with Sarge) around your Dev, and you won't have that problem. Every shotgun Scout squad with infilitration costs as much power as one Devastator, and the Dev can render multiple Scout squads inoperable. Suppression with Tac support simply murders Scout spam.Dev? Infiltrate just counters that
Last night i had 2 x scouts (though without shotty), 1x tacs, 1x asm and my FC and the tac's and ASM in particular were just getting absolutely murdered when i came close to the enemy scouts and their shotties. Was so frustrating, was flailing around trying to find a way to deal with it. Tried using devs in buildings but theyre so easy to evade with scout speed. I'm not sold on this 1.4 balance just yet.
#18
Slugga spam will beat it for cost.
Add Nobz and lol.
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I'd like to see a replay of Slugga spam beating scout spam. In my experience entire squads of sluggas just melt when they get near to the scouts due to the horrendous damage at close range from shotguns. Any squad that does get close enough to start CCing them gets hit with explosive shot.
shotguns should do 50% damage to heavy armor... after all thats realistic aswell pellets are easily stoped by light bodyarmor even in todays age.
Shotguns will still rape shees sluggas etc
but heavy infantry will ignore it and by by poor scouts if someone tries to use them as antitac.
Im getting sick of plp complaining about balance issues. Scout spam is overrated. The only balance issue I know see is the platforms/deployables worthiness.
#22
Slugga spam will fail miserably against Scout spam as long as the SM player is halfway competent. Shoota spam, on the other hand, will rape Scout spam hard.
Shotguns already do reduced damage to heavy armor (75%). Shotgun damage at medium range is a little OTT in general, but I don't think there is much need for creating an entirely new weapon class just to make heavy armor more resistant.
#23
Been playing Eldar a lot generally. Sod the Banshees, been building 3 GUs (back to the classics) to give me a total of 4GUs + Warlock. It isn't a perfect counter to scout spam as you're still very vulnerable to knockback and grenades if you're too bunched up (which can be easy with 4 squads), but it's solid. However, as soon as you get any power you can get warphtrow, or 2 x Rangers. Now you're cooking. This build is pretty good against a whole lot of things to be honest, and I haven't built an early banshee in ages.
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Being Eldar and u manage to hit T2, WarpSpiders usually solves the scout problem...
kinda expensive though, but it worx.
warpsiders are currently op, once you mass 3 or more squads they rape all infantry and kill single vehicles.
they need jump to cost more energy or do less damage, its over the top when entire infantry armies can be killed in seconds by a teleporting unit.
honestly i just like the actual eldar army, i think they are neer to the good balance. Warpspider are powerfull, like they supposed to be, bt they are still very fragile..they need to be babysit to survive...
yeah eldar feel quite balanced,
three WS squads r kinda investment, i barley manage to field 2 of em
and as pointed out, they r a hell of a glass cannon ^^
scouts are glass cannons too
Warpspiders are the everything unit.
They can counter everything(much like scouts)
Infantry
Ranged
Melee
Turrets/setupteas
Vehicles
They are effectively immune to melee and they rape many ranged units.
I still say they are op, thing is most people currently are still spamming shees but im seeing mass guardin spam(which is bloody hard to counter actually) and then mass warpspiders.
if shees get toned down or as time goes on you will see more and more warpspider massing because it counters everything.
#29
I was going to say that too Jeopardia.
@MasterBlaster: 3xWS with aspect (for vehicles) and exarch is a whopping 1725/225. That's a lot. I should bloody hope that that much resource investments minces your bog-standard infantry, especially considering how vulnerable to WS are themselves.
Edit - if you're going to up their teleport cost, then you're going to have up their HP too, as the teleport is the only thing that keeps them alive. Other jumpers (or burrowers) have higher costs, but they also have much more durability.
Thats great
3 squads of tactial plasma with loses to those 3 squads of ws happens to cost more req and only a little less power.
3*500
3*75/25 sarge
3*65/30 Plasma
1920/165
now explain to me why the tacs should lose.
can tacs jump
negative
can the plasma tacs counter vehicles very well
negative
Are Plasma tacs counter to enemy heavy infantry
Affrimitive
And if you say the tacs should lose, tell me which unit in the entire sm army which can be used to counter mass warpspiders.
I'd guess infiltrated shotgun scouts. I imagine they'd make a bloody great mess out of WS massing.tell me which unit in the entire sm army which can be used to counter mass warpspiders.
#32
60 power is also a fair amount of difference, where as 200 req out of 1800ish is not.
warpspiders own scouts and scoutshotguns is currently broken.
great argument for why warpspiders are balanced, thanks for proving my point
Can't see scouts even working tbh.
Unless they're trying to run around infiltrated the whole time the first time I see them cloak I'm going to warp the hell out & come back with rangers.
It wins one engagement not the war.
Does 3x WS kill a razorback outright or do they just cripple it? Could you go duel razorback.
Or Razorback + shotgun scouts using knockback to slow down the haywire to the point that the WS take significant losses?
Just theory crafting here, I have no intention of playing gimpy boring SM
How do they own them? They don't detect, so if the WS are on the attack, jumping in behind your troops or going to hit a vehicle, they aren't going to have friendly detectors nearby, so they won't be able to target your scouts until your scouts open fire.
In a stand up fight, WS vs Scout, with no infiltration used and equal cover, the WS might well beat the scouts, but that's not how I'd use them...
#36
What about the shotgun knock back? 3 scouts = 3 knockbacks. That's plenty time to kill some WS.
just so were clear
scouts are a counter to warpspiders because the eldar player may accidently warpin close to them while there infiltrated so they can attack.
currently warpspiders can teleport basicly nonstop and the cooldown is such that
once again shotguns are broken
your gonna see them nerfed
once again
tac plasma is anti heavy infantry, warpspiders are generalist unit that happens to be better at it.
scout snipers were a counter to warpspiders but the cost of infiltrain and sniperrifles and the setuptime makes snipers worthless you lose them far to easily and they dont have the range or damage(firerate) of rangers.
Pretty sure the counter is going to be a ranged dread with a scout squad next to it. If you jump in to haywire you'll get knockdown, if you stay at range the auto-cannon on the dread will eat you alive.
First off it doesnt work, warpspiders get the heywire off before knockdown
second mass warpspiders give the eldar player complete mapcontrol.
the other player has to huddle there units together like frightend children because if they go to try and take a vp back they will get ambushed and killed when using single units.
The Warpspiders strength is surpose to be there teleport, as they stand if they didnt have teleport they would still beat most other armies for cost.. and thats a serious problem, but with the teleport they utterly own everything and can get away from anything they cant.
lastly
they are one of the few ranged units in the game capable of forcing the enemy to retreat then killing the retreating enemy units(teleporting after them).
#40
GU spam >>>> Scout spam
Shoota Spam >> Scout spam (gets dodgy with grenades)
Tac spam > Scout spam unless the SM has great micro or is an Apoth (dont ask)
Nids just seem to die a lot to scouts... I dunno.
Scout shotguns are OP for their role right now... people are spamming them... sorta like sluggas and Shees vs. SM, so people are playing up the SM units that dont suck for cost vs. the common anti-SM builds.
This is silly, but its also how the patch is going through its evolution. I'm sure relic tried these sorts of stupid builds out in testing and came to some preliminary conclusions about utility, its up to us to thoroughly test it out.
For my part, I find that a fast razor back is a great counter to scout-spam - except that if you get rocked too hard in tier 1, you lose your gens and that razor just comes out too late to have the proper effect.
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#41
God damn you and your reasonable logic.
#42
Scout spam is naturally expected when people mass melee units vs SM, since scouts are the natural melee counter. The problem is the metagame is stuck on melee vs SM, so SM spam scouts to counter melee. People are stuck on one tracks rather than developing. Ofc, tactical marine weakness has a lot to do with people NOT progressing onto them to counter the ranged spam that counters scouts...
I find it hard to believe people would lose against scouts. Everyone still thinks melee units = teh shitz, but obviously haven't realised thats why their losing vs scouts.
Seriously, the amount of money you have to sink into scouts to get them to "OMG WTF BBQ" stage... 210/0+40/20+50/30.
Until everyone is fully aware that shotguns = melee unit death people will just keep losing.
Metagame = stale already and people haven't even started to cotton on to counters xD
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#43
Heh, which is exactly why I've been going 3xGU, 2xRangers in my past couple games. Works great.
it is very common in 1v1, the Space Marine will avoid early battles, conversely the Eldar must actively attempt to fremove Scout squads (not units - reinforce costs are low) or attempt to catch Tacticals.
it is basically an elusive point capture game until upgrades and Scout numbers are in play. Then the Eldar has to choose their battles with care and disrupt the Scout numbers behind, otherwise it is all too easy to lose on reinforce costs from each battle.
I can see how Scouts can be theoretically countered (like Octopus Rex said, opening with 2/3 Guardians --but you will want Banshees too--, using Warp Throw etc) but the practise and prevalence of Scouts in ranked games shows where undifferentiated theory ends and skill and strategy requirements for cost, time and ease factor in.
Scouts disrupt, can concentrate tremendous damage and are cost friendly for battles. The other player is not afforded too many mistakes or losses. Also power will be lost if equilibrium is lost in the early game.
the Warp Spider vs Scout issue is a peculiar comparison; I too think Warp Spiders might be problematic in numbers (my core Eldar army is increasingly shifting to Warp Spiders and Banshees, tier 3 is out again) and may need potential balance. However a better understanding of the early game which determines later developments in relation to other armies would need to be properly assessed beforehand.
anyway, the Scout issue is readily apparent in ranked games, I would say just about everyone playing regular ranked games has some notion of the potential balance issues, they are also probably more reserved until further playing to claim what those issues may be.
#45
Oh, FWIW, Eldar players can still build shees first on small maps as you can over run scouts before the shotguns appear... and because the SM sees Shees on the field, he (I mean me) starts to rub his greedy hands together thinking its easy shotgun-prey!!! WOOT!!!
.
.
BLAM!!! WTF? Rangers? Wheres that concede button again?
I think that you're not seeing differentiation in ranked games because scouts are so damn good for cost that everyone migrated to them early. This means that most SM players are already well up the learning curve with scouts making them the unit that they get the most cost/reward out of even when faced with natural counters.but the practise and prevalence of Scouts in ranked games shows where undifferentiated theory ends and skill and strategy requirements for cost, time and ease factor in.
The fact remains that fully upgraded scouts vaporize under focused fire at range - cost friendly scouts are only thus when not totally dead - and retreating scouts are no more useful than retreating tacs - your gen farms are worm food.
that is what I said ?I think that you're not seeing differentiation in ranked games because scouts are so damn good for cost that everyone migrated to them early.
"natural counters" is where the theory is not properly representing the issue, almost every discussion is depicting balance as "we build our respective unit x at this time and attack move to the middle of the map". No games play like that, besides Orks presently. The Scouts are mass capping units, except for where the Space Marine commander is and depending on opposing unit numbers and composition. Once the Scouts are ready you cannot battle them without equal numbers -and- disruption of the concentrated damage from Scouts.
as I said "skill and strategy requirements for cost, time and ease", which is what is making Scouts so obviously popular, they can decimate anything with basic opportunity. This is not so with the 'natural' counters, and in turn this determines map control, power loss, the Dreadnaught that won't stop repairing etc
#47
lol words.
Oh, another scout-build-synergy issue too. That being that scouts are cheaper in the long run than tacs, ASM, or Devs.. which gets that dread out faster, and all those scouts repair Dreads...the Dreadnaught that won't stop repairing etc
Its like the old 3x GU ->Falcon synergy - must be broken.
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
To even hit the magical 3 WS squads that are oh so OP the eldar has to get to T2 and amass 3 squads. That's a lot of time and will certainly go poof if you power harrass.
You said they rape infantry and single vehicles. For the cost of 3 WS you can almost get 4x RB (with 500 req to spare) and they will either down 1 of them or stun 3 and kill none.
Slugga spam will beat it for cost.
Add Nobz and lol.Shoota Spam >> Scout spam (gets dodgy with grenades)My Team was ALL Orks, the other team was ALL SM. I was a Mekboy w/ Deffgun, x3 upgraded Shoota Boyz, 1x Slugga boy w/ Nob. My teamates were a Warboss & Kommando. Warboss had x2 sluggaz, 1x Stikkbomma, 1x Stormboyz. Kommando had x2 upgraded Shootaz, x2 slugga w/ Nob, x1 Stikkbomma.What race are you playing?
The Other Team was a TM & Apothecary fighting me and the Kommando on the top of the map. He used Brothers-In-Arms in conjunction with AoE Heals from Apoth. Their army looked like the git damned Imperial Guard! It was just waves, and waves of scouts blobbing over the map with shotguns, then stealthed scouts would strike with nades to disrupt my mekboy (who would have stopped the blob by himself) and kill masses of boyz. They ended up pushing us back, and they knocked out all of our power before we could get to tier 2, and they just held us in tier 1 the entire match.
The Warboss was busy fighting the 3rd SM player the entire match. The 3rd SM player built a balanced SM force of ASM, Tacts, and scouts w/ his Force Comamnder. So the FC & WB were tied up fighting on the bottom 80% of the match. So we were left in the middle & top contending with the scout mass.
Needless to say it was friggin ridiculous. I'd rather be fighting 1.3 Tyranids, or 1.2 Tact Spam because at least you had a chance to get to tier 3. I haven't encountered this more than once, but i'm going to be prepared for it next time I fight a SM. hopefully that will help me from loosing to a Scout Spam player again.
The point is, scouts are supposed to compliment/support the core SM army. If a SM player can spam one unit and be that difficult to stop, you know something is seriously wrong with SM balance.
kamikazee sm is the only race that cant power harras without spending energy
the only t1 unit that can kill power at a decent rate is devastator with vengence rounds.
(mass scouts hotguns can of course, but the power spent on them means you can get your 3 squads)
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