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Worst Spam of all (Scout spam)

  1. #51
    Member AntiCommie's Avatar
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    SM seem altogether messed up. Tacs lose to almost any melee, and scouts seem too strong for their price in mirrors.

    Against Eldar, and even Orc, Shoota's and Guardians seem to rip scouts up just fine.

  2. #52
    Very Disappointed Dux's Avatar
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    @SteelFaith:
    Needs moar Shootas. Shoota mass will own Scout spam hard; Scouts vaporize in about .4 seconds to Big Shoota fire. If all the SM does is build Scouts, then you don't need anything else.

    @MasterBlaster:
    3x WS squads is an outrageous investment that requires Tier 2 before you can even get started with it. You've probably already lost the game if you allow your opponent to mass this many WS. Also, I tend to seriously doubt that 3x WS will beat 3x Plasma Tacs, unless the WS have better cover. Theroycraft follows:

    - Three Tac squads w/ Sergeants have a combined HP of 4350.
    - Three WS squads w/ Exarchs have a combined HP of 3120, 1230 less HP.

    - Three Tac squads w/ Sergeants and Plasma will have a combined DPS of roughly 238.
    - Three WS squads w/ Exarchs will have a combined DPS of roughly 283, but Tac heavy armor will reduce this number by 25%, so they will only put out about 212 DPS, 26 less DPS.

    - The Tac squads have fewer members, which means that their DPS will be cut down at a slower rate to concentrated fire than the WS squads. The engagement will quickly slide way in favor of the Tacs once the WS start dying, and they will start dying very quickly.

    There is no way sans a significant cover discrepancy that the WS could win this fight. The WS have much less HP spread out among more squad members and their DPS is lower. Your claim is baseless.
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  3. #53
    The Earth died screaming Noble's Avatar
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    Guys lets focus this discussion on scouts and not on warpspiders. Another thread can be created for discussing the balance of spiders if need be. Of course, discussing how warpspiders play into the balance of scouts is perfectly fine.
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  4. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #54
    For the First Time in Forever Buguba's Avatar
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    For all you saying that scout spam will beat slugga spam, you're wrong. You need to face people who know what they're doing with sluggas.

    You need at least 2 scouts to gib a slugga squad effectively.

    2 scouts w/ shotties + infiltration = 600 req + 70 power.

    1 slugga w/ nob = 375 req + 25 power. Add burnas for extra oomph (not neccessary) for a total of ~410 req + 45 power.

    Trust me, anyone who knows what they're doing with their sluggas will absolutely murder scout spam. Scout knockback barely phases sluggas, and scouts will literally be insta-gibbed the moment that the sluggas go CC.

    You can counter Brothers in Arms and Heal AOE with Call Da Boyz. If WAAAAAGH wasn't already enough, that is.


    Also, if the SM player is good, he'll vaporize shoota spam. Shoota spam has no detectors, and scouts will just infiltrate + lol.

    Sluggas have easy detection on the go, and the Nob upgrade increases their CC ability drastically. Sluggas OBLITERATE scouts for cost.
    "You must be swift as the coursing river, with all the force of a great typhoon, with all the strength of a raging fire, mysterious as the dark side of the moon."

  5. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #55
    so amaze Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    Trust me, anyone who knows what they're doing with their sluggas will absolutely murder scout spam. Scout knockback barely phases sluggas, and scouts will literally be insta-gibbed the moment that the sluggas go CC.
    Trust me, try that vs. anybody who can micro and you might as well bend over and lube up.

    Sluggas do not work vs scouts. If they do, then something is seriously wrong with either you, the developers, Stefanhaines, or everybody else in this thread who doesn't build enough ranged and claim scout spam is OP.
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  6. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #56
    For the First Time in Forever Buguba's Avatar
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    Sluggas do not work vs scouts. If they do, then something is seriously wrong with either you, the developers, Stefanhaines, or everybody else in this thread who doesn't build enough ranged and claim scout spam is OP
    The micro part is map dependent. Larger maps lean more towards scouts, while smaller maps lean towards sluggas.

    It also depends on what stage the scout and slugga spam has reached. 2 scouts will beat 1 slugga easily. 3 scouts vs. 2 sluggas will lose.

    In the end though, you gotta micro your sluggas too. Sending them in an all out charge won't work if the scout player can micro at all. If the micro of both parties is equal though, you'll find that scouts don't outrun slugga charge, meaning you can't kite. You have to micro your sluggas to engage the multiple scout targets, or you'll get destroyed like you said.

    Slugga spam mainly works because of their insane melee damage and easy detection. I wasn't joking when I said that sluggas will instagib scouts in CC, especially with the Nob leader.

    Against any other melee unit though, Scout spam >>>>>> all.

  7. #57
    Member Frigidair44's Avatar
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    Ork and see the SM? Go immediately for 2x to 3x shootas plus big shootas. The big shootas will keep the scouts on the back foot, and allow you to go to tier 2.

    I have not seen a single example of Scout Spam that didn't involve at least 3-4 scouts. And they have to blob them in order to be effective, and cost so much power especially if they go for sarge too.

    So even with so many of them they will not have map control. Push hard... destroy their power, tech to tier 2 and roll out a deff dread + burnas and a wartruck. They will be done.
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  8. #58
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    So even with so many of them they will not have map control. Push hard... destroy their power, tech to tier 2 and roll out a deff dread + burnas and a wartruck. They will be done.
    Except that Buguba and several other players are abusing the infiltrate to tottally demolish shoota's with big shoota's meaning it's the shoota's with no map control or power.
    I don't know what i'm talking about, ignore me.

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  9. #59
    Party like it's M40.999 Aquila's Avatar
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    Ironically, the best way to beat scout spam is to build the standard tactical and ASM build that was common before the patch. It's funny, because while the Tacs/ASMs no longer work against pretty much anybody, it will murder scout spam.

    The key is melee. I played several games against shotgun spammers where I force-meleed my tacs, ASM's, and FC against a techmarine and his scout shotguns. He had a relay out, and I butchered his entire army to a man. Of course, then he put artificer armor on his techmarine and I couldn't scratch it.

  10. #60
    The shotgun knockback and close range damage is so fucking ridiculous I don't even understand how it made it into the beta in the first place. 2 shotgun scout squads effectively make the SM force immune to melee unless you are planning on rushing them with 4+ melee squads simultaneously from 4 different directions to minimize knockback.

    "So don't build melee units!"

    This is a fair point but to remove melee effectiveness so arbitrarily is just wrong. It removes the options of running with a mixed CC/ranged setup (which should be encouraged for unit/strategic diversity) and forces the game into pure ranged vs ranged matches. It's the complete opposite problem of having CC units so strong that they make ranged units useless.
    Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs

  11. #61
    Member Frigidair44's Avatar
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    Except that Buguba and several other players are abusing the infiltrate to tottally demolish shoota's with big shoota's meaning it's the shoota's with no map control or power.
    Then they are doing it wrong. I don't know the numbers, but the infiltration ability is something they have to buy now, which costs power. So do sergents if they want the extra HP. They will be a spending a lot of extra req and power to get those toys and that will severely hamper their ability to harass.

    If you are playing correctly, you should be killing Scouts individually or by the squad early on, costing them a ton of req, and you should be closing in on their Gens to deny them power. Just two shootas with big shootas doing focus fire will kill them long before they get close before doing the Scout Boomshot, or at least force them to retreat. Add one more squad or two and they will never get close to firing a shot.

    I've dealt with the infiltration aspect and the grenades. A scout about to throw grenades is easy to spot. And your one slugga squad with a nob will be able to see the little bastards (though he will be retreating quick. Its not that tough. As soon as you get to tier two roll out a deff dread and then a wartruck. More infiltration detection plus you can chase the bastards into their base... and kill them.

  12. #62
    Frigidair44 I've doen everything you're saying, and in text it sounds good, but it's not working ingame.

    4-5 squads of Scouts, all with assorted upgrades can easily destroy "massed" shootaz because they have all different tools to outplay them, and they're cheaper to produce then sluggaz and shootaz.

    If you try and send your sluggaz in to intercept Shotgun scouts, they aoe knockdown them, and can toss a nade in. I've tried suppressing them with Mekboy, but if they nade him it removes him from the fight. I can kill plenty of scouts, but they're cheaper than boyz, and the scouts win when it comes to the price battle.

    If you fight a good SM player who micro's his scouts really good, it's really difficult to stop them with the Mekboy tier 1. I'm not saying that it's impossible, it's a new strategy, and i'm trying to find a way around it, but not many SM players I fight seem to use mass scouts (yet). When someone does though, it's much harder to beat than anyone would think.

  13. #63
    HOLY THREAD RESURRECTION BATMAN!

    I thought it might be a fun fact for this past discussion, that Stefan Haines seems to know pretty well how badly Scouts pwn

    http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar...tails&id=87355

  14. #64
    Stefan.....
    Acceptance- Seeing how hopefully shitty you are and moving on.

  15. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #65
    For the First Time in Forever Buguba's Avatar
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    If you try and send your sluggaz in to intercept Shotgun scouts, they aoe knockdown them, and can toss a nade in.
    It's impossible for scouts to AOE and grenade in the same sitting. They don't have enough energy. He'd have to have 1 squad do AOE, and the other do the grenade. Even after just one of those, he barely has energy left to infiltrate.

    Seriously, slugga spam ftw.

  16. #66
    You can do knockdown and nade with multiple Scouts squads. One uses aoe blast, others throw in nades. It's been done to me.

  17. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #67
    For the First Time in Forever Buguba's Avatar
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    You can do knockdown and nade with multiple Scouts squads. One uses aoe blast, others throw in nades. It's been done to me.
    That's what I said. 1 to do the AOE, the other to do the grenade. It's pretty micro intensive though, and litterally requires split second timing. The knockdown doesn't last very long.

    You'r right though, it doesn't change the fact that it can be done. Still though, with enough sluggas, you can plow through regardless. He'd have to be a god to manage multiple knockdowns + grenades at once, and sluggas are quick enough to close the distance as long as there are more than 1 of them.

  18. #68
    True, but just because one spam is greater than another, doesn't make any of it balanced or reasonable. Slugga spam, and Scout spam are both ridiculous, and need to be changed asap.

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