Saunders
I completely forgot
you know how you said the TM has better raw stats then any other ranged hero
Egg on your face
The Alpha Ravener.
Does more DPS.
Has more Hitpoints.
Does more melee damage.
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Saunders
I completely forgot
you know how you said the TM has better raw stats then any other ranged hero
Egg on your face
The Alpha Ravener.
Does more DPS.
Has more Hitpoints.
Does more melee damage.
What is the current DPS on the Ravener Alpha's ranged attack?
DoW II - Saunders
CoH - CommanderNewbie
Not sure, but the TM loses to the Ravener even with Plasma.
Its pretty darn high.
It fires in large volly that takes arond 20% of the TM health per volly.
around 100 damage
Meanwhile TM 3 round fire does about 64.
Ravener can beat the TM while its capping and TM is in cover.
So you have no proof of this? I bet you're wrong, that the RA has more ranged DPS than the techmarine.
<EDIT> Just found it, the Techmarine does in fact have higher ranged DPS than the RA.
Last edited by Saunders; 12th Jul 09 at 1:03 PM.
#55
@Saunders : remember, people are not asking for the TM to displace the Apoth or FC as "top dog", we just don't like the idea of our hero being more shallow in design than other heroes. The lack of a starting ability, what ever it may be (and no, buildings are not it... if anything repair would be it, but thats not useful until buildings are out) is both a balance issue in the early part of the game, and makes TM players unhappy gamers.
I thought TM in 1.4.1 was over powered, but I still wanted the starting ability - nerf what you need to to balance him, just make him perform like all other heroes with some basic-power to start with.
If any of his abilities were significantly stronger than other heroes, we'd probably shut up about it.
Tacs cap faster... perhaps TM can have that?
Ra Owa : AAHHHH!!!! ITS A ROCK!
Troubleshooter : Wha... oh... Pfffttt... Prove it. :}
Ra Owa : ... [sputtering] ... o.O ... Its SCIENCE!
I understand, and I'm not saying that the Techmarine might not be deserving of another pass or be gifted with a starting power ability.
But I can't remain quiet when I read what some players are writing about how underpowered the TM is... a lot of it is just embellished bullshit. Many are entirely ignoring the existing strengths of the TM, as-is. I'm posting so that more logical posts such as your own don't get swept up in the current of "it is physically not possible for a TM to win a game right now."
#57
He is underpowered... the embellishment is extraBut I can't remain quiet when I read what some players are writing about how underpowered the TM is... a lot of it is just embellished bullshit.
I went looking for the RA's ranged weapon. I believe it is the "death spitter" which does 100 health per hit, 10 more than plasma-gun TM. It also has a cool down of 1.4 vs. the TM's bolter of 1, so it fires less frequently but hits harder. The upgraded version (devourer) gets plasma damage, which then out-damages TM plasma.
Don't worry, these people are marginalized by their own bias, Devs. are not going to fall for such blatant self interest."it is physically not possible for a TM to win a game right now."
The only No-Win MU for TM was 1.3.x Tyranids, and then you could still win by out playing them. (always true)
Lab it troubleshooter, it does a hell of alot more then the TM,s bolter, and saunders wont believe anything isay.
TM loses to it its not even close.
Guys, the techmarine seriously isn't overpowered. Turrets, reinforcement points, for instance, are liabilities. If you're losing to those, you probably were losing to machine gun spam in Company of Heroes. Now, I really don't like referencing skill in discussing these things, but unless I see TS 30+ SM consistently telling me the techmarine is OP, I'm not looking twice at most calls for nerfing.
And OP or UP isn't even the point here! Insofar as the hero goes, he is definitely very simple at this point. Again, he has no real supporting purpose, certainly compared to the healing apothecary or even the battle-crying force commander. This guy is pretty much designed, at this point to be part of a force, but from then on do his own thing (aside from maybe buffing a single squad). His repairing is lackluster, and that's supposed to be his best support option; so to bring more abilities that he can realistically use to the table, his options need more diversity, and that means more leeway for experimentation (read: improved wargear).
Yes, please improve the tech marine's gear. I always buy the same stuff.
Agreed, turrets seem more underpowered than overpowered if you ask me. If you're ever able to get behind or over them you'll certainly be able to defeat them, or God forbid, if you have jump troops. You certainly don't need to sit on your ass and wait for T2 just because the enemy laid one turret, no sir. Besides, turrets quite a lot of resources, so they'd better make up for it (especially power-wise; if you see excessive turret spam you can be sure your enemy isn't planning on going to T2 any time soon - or purchasing other squads, for that matter).
And yeah, UP/OP isn't what's wrong about the TM. I'd personally add the following changes to make him more "techy" as someone put it (this coming from someone who plays TM exclusively in 1v1 as SM, rank 17, TS 19 - well, when I have the time to, mind you):
- Instead of costing power, make turrets cost 280 req. Sounds reasonable if you ask me; more expensive than a scout squad, and you're paying for something immobile and greatly vulnerable to vehicles and any attacks out of its range. With this change you'll be able to field more vehicles while turrets will still hurt your economy.
- Add a T2 "anti-vehicle" missile upgrade to turrets, similar to DoW1. Basically makes the turret less effective vs. infantry (in other than disruption) and more effective vs. vehicles, sort of like a faster tac missile launcher which deals less damage. Cost could be something like 40/25.
- Double the repair rate. It's pretty rare to see TM repairing vehicles, most people tend to stick with the zeal ability instead. And you'd think that servo arm to be worth something anyway, and repairing vehicles in combat puts him in a horribly vulnerable position, so this change would again put more tactic into play instead of randomly spamming the zeal ability when vehicles get damaged.
- Change the "Blessing of the Omnisiah" zeal ability to give a 25% damage increase to all vehicles and a 25% protection against all damage for its duration. If used right, this could make Razorbacks more viable, for example.
- Change the Master Crafted Bolter to a Missile Launcher instead, like the one Kommando Nob gets (with a similar special ability), and move it to T2, keep the same cost. Master Crafted Bolter is entirely useless, and this would allow for more tactics other than grabbing plasma asap for best dps. Now you can choose whether or not to buy the Consecrated Bolter in tier 1, and from plasma or AV in tier 2, as opposed to only buying plasma!
All of these changes would promote a more fluffy, vehicle-focused/AV kind of play IMO.
Last edited by Psycho-Warrior; 13th Jul 09 at 2:47 AM.
DoW 2 Nick (GFWL): FunkyFinzy
Psycho warrior
Turrets are easily destroyed and things such as Raveners tunnels allow them to be bypassed completly, however not costing energy tier1 would make them very very spammable.
Turrets should get AV twinlinked lasers is what they are made into for AV on tabletop
TM repair rate should be increased
Blessing of Omnisiah is fine
He cant use Rockets in tabletop, so that proberly wont happen.
Is giving him detection a good start? Maybe, just throwing ideas around.
GFWL gamertag/ LoL name: ReadInPeace
Just call me Readin'
might work, after all he is a techmarine, has the most advanced targeteting wargear etc.
but thats passive not active doesnt require skill.
#65
It would make him beat the crap out of the K-nob... thats about all.
The req cost is still pretty high, definitely delaying the actual squads you'll see on the field. If no power post for buildables [i]did[i/] lead to spamming, we'd see the req-only waaghbanners being spammed left and right. As it is, requisition still plays a critical role in the formation of one's army and economy, and anything that costs more than 200 req is going to set players back early game.not costing energy tier1 would make them very very spammable.
If there's still a worry about spam, pump up the turret's upkeep cost so that making more than one or two will make your requisition income drop significantly. Increasing pop cost is also an option. Both would make power-less turrets viable, but not spammable.
Tech marine as support is awesome. Unfortunately, too many noobs out there that dont work in sync with u. eg... while u turret key positions, ur team continues to stay in T1.. spamming T1 units..
u guys know what happens next... its a no brainer when thier walkers came out. N we had NO av AT ALL. lol
I'd say the term support, when paired with techmarine, conveys the meaning of the term in its most abstract sense... he supports, but does it so poorly to the to the end that he simply cannot be used for support.
#69
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthre...08#post3585308
Replay whoring...
The TM as support unit... works fine. His problem is strictly in the tweak realm, not the OMG he's lame realm.
heh removing energy cost and costing them at 280 req would mean an end to eldar.
hey mr guardian squad look a building thats cheaper than you, does more dps, is more hardy and u dont realistically stand a chance of countering til t2.
Why cant they just cost zeal instead of power, removes spammyness and lets face it they are more useful than webways.
Spamming turrets is a one way ticket to losing against anyone with basic arithmetic skills.
Or anyone with a G button. Please take note of the possible ways of stopping a potential spam as prompted in post 66 if you're still convinced of the OPness of powerless turret spam.
Seriously, if turret spam was viable, then pre-power cost Heavy Bolter Spam (those moveable turrets) would probably have been OP.
#73
This statement is bad and you should feel bad. Turrets are a problem because;Seriously, if turret spam was viable, then pre-power cost Heavy Bolter Spam (those moveable turrets) would probably have been OP.
1. Almost impossible to kill without plasma/power weapons
2. Cannot be disrupted.
There are lots of positions on various maps where a techmarine can place a turret and once it is up, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it until at least tier 2.
Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs
Just charge it with 2 melee untis chris, if they get suppressed. So what.There are lots of positions on various maps where a techmarine can place a turret and once it is up, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it until at least tier 2.
AFAIK the damage reduction from suppreshion is eithier non-existant or very small.
SO as long as you retreat before a squad dies you'll get it for not too massive a cost, (admitedly it's still expensive).
I don't know what i'm talking about, ignore me.
Thousands of years ago, Egyptians worshipped what would become our ordinary housecat. The cats have never forgotten this.
Because then your two melee units would die? Seriously, don't go around theorycrafting when its fairly obvious what your suggesting is suicide. Turrets are nearly impossible to kill in T1 beyond flamers and getting around behind them, and I can attest to the fact that no one sets up turrets with their back facing anything other than a wall unless your fighting noobs. No one spams turrets (thats good), but using a turret to lock down a VP or enemy power gen farm for all of T1 is a game turner right there, and there's precious little anyone can do about it right now. The only way to kill a turret is to get into short to melee range, which is damn near impossible on some maps.
Relay is perhaps the strongest commander ability in the game right now. Good healing, reinforcement, and optional retreat point (you can retreat to it from your base) allows you to move tac spam around like there's no tommorow. Once you get that relay up in a 2v2 or 3v3 and your allies coordinate around its GG.
Mark Target's still good, the TM does great ranged damage T1, and can shell out the highest damage of any hero right now with plasma overcharge. Underpowered, he ain't. Everyone was bitching about the TM being the worst SM hero by a longshot (he was, I'll admit) but now he's gotten some serious buffs to his wargear, stats, and base abilities. I wouldn't complain too much, because I'd be willing to bet that he's going to be getting the nerfstick by the end of the beta.
Well then they've seriouslly buffed the damage because i saw the A do that to one of my turrets once, (ii'd got it penned in it's base and built turrets all round so it ha no choice but to go through a turret). Or does the AI get some magical HP buff that i don't know about?Because then your two melee units would die? Seriously, don't go around theorycrafting when its fairly obvious what your suggesting is suicide. Turrets are nearly impossible to kill in T1 beyond flamers and getting around behind them, and I can attest to the fact that no one sets up turrets with their back facing anything other than a wall unless your fighting noobs.
#77
Suppression weapons (like turrets) have very poor damage at long range, but it improves massively closer in. You can close the range (eventually), but you will get murdered if you try to melee rush from the front.
The only unit that could pull that off without massive casualties is Nobz.
Remember: you're a blogger. Pretense is your co-pilot.
#78
Sluggas with reckless work great. (T2?)The only unit that could pull that off without massive casualties is Nobz.
Shees need more help, like a disruption field... but otherwise maul turrets.
ASM dont do frontal assaults if they can help it.
Nids are boned but can usually bypass lone turrets and then hit from the side due to swarmy stuff or hero abilities.
#79
Sluggas still get murdered by turrets at point blank, reckless or not.
They get suppressed and then eaten alive by whatever was supporting the turret.Just charge it with 2 melee untis chris, if they get suppressed. So what.
Gotten tired of playing Tyranids so switched up to Random, ended up getting matched against a string of TM players in automatch and found out first hand just how broken turrets/relay can be in 1vs1. "Don't fight them under the relay/turret" would normally be a reasonable solution but when they're camped right outside your power node or ontop of a VP you don't really have a choice.
Their army can't be everywhere at once. If they're supporting the turret then ignore it till they move off and go somwhere else.They get suppressed and then eaten alive by whatever was supporting the turret.
I'm not saying that turrets aren't tough to counter. Just that an unsupported turret can be murder by melee for a sufficent req investment.
#81
We're going in circles. Smart turret placement involves putting a turret in a position where it cannot be ignored EG. Blocking a choke out out of your HQ, covering your power node etc. Losing your "safe" power node in 1vs1 is simply not an option. You lose control of that node and you lose the game, if the tech marine is offensively turreting your node in an attempt to steal your generators you MUST throw everything you have at him otherwise your power income goes down the toilet along with any hope of reaching tier 2.
Granted it's not possible on all maps but it's possible on enough of them for hair-pulling, racial slur-spitting frustrating to ensue.
This doesnt happen to be a thread based on turrets being UP or OP, and any argument that the TM is fine because he can turret falls apart when you compare the TM to the MekBoy who also gets turrets pluss starting ability.
Can we try to keep it on topic, even thou we can expect nothing changed between now and offical release.
MasterBlaster, what we're pointing out is that the TM isn't fine because he's still overpowered in comparison to other SM commanders. Turrets and relays are overpowered in team games I'm sure of, and I'll take Chris's word that 1v1 its almost as bad.
I play TM, and let me say that there is nothing underpowered about him. He deals great ranged damage, has good abilities, and has the best starting abilities in the game. He supports tac spam perfectly.
When tacs get nerfed, he might need to be altered, but we can't know how the TM game will change based on a hypothetical. Until tacs get the almost certain nerf that's coming, doing anything to the TM risks unbalancing the game even further.
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