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Balance Suggestions

  1. #1

    Balance Suggestions

    I started writing these down, and eventually it turned into a big messy document which I thought I'd share with everyone (lucky you!). Comments and discussion are welcome, and if you've got an idea of your own, feel free to throw it out there.

    I've arranged these into smaller sections for easier reading. Enjoy (maybe)!

    General Changes


    Eldar Changes


    Ork Changes


    Space Marine Changes


    Tyranid Changes

    Last edited by BudgetMessiah; 7th Jul 09 at 8:51 PM.

  2. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #2
    Talented Musician Buguba's Avatar
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    I actually was about to post a similar thread of this myself. I'll post my own balance change list here as well:

    My list is primarily focused around making ranged units competitive with melee units in T1, making heavy armour not quite so vulnerable, making set-up teams worthwhile, and fixing/tweaking other general balance issues.

    General Fixes



    Space Marine fixes



    Ork Fixes



    Tyranid Fixes




    Eldar Fixes



    It seems for the most part, we've actually got the same ideas about what needs to be tweaked (if not different ways of doing it). I like your list.
    Last edited by Buguba; 8th Jul 09 at 2:08 AM.
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  3. #3
    You seem to have more sweeping changes in mind. I think a lot of intra-factional imbalances might pop up if you dropped slugga damage that much, for example. Or looted tanks that already lose handily to space marine counterparts...why make them much worse? Autoshotty scouts/shootas that suppress without an upgrade/termagants with same? Ranged would dominate too handily. Heavy armor taking reduced damage from basic melee? Marines would be unstoppable by all but Eldar. Do you really think setup teams aren't doing enough damage?

    Some others aren't extreme enough. The techmarine's plasma gun is too overpowered for a simple cost adjustment, it should be nerfed, or bumped to a higher tier and adjusted.

    Eldar gateways could use something, maybe a health regen (like a relay) at tier 2 and infiltrate (with an obvious holo-field marker to indicate that something is going on at that location) at tier 3, but they are plenty good at Tier 1. Oh, and that reminds me...I need to add something about base regeneration. That's awful right now.

    For sure, though, we seem to agree on where the more general imbalances lie. Thanks for your list.
    Last edited by BudgetMessiah; 7th Jul 09 at 2:31 PM.

  4. #4
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    Buguba; FYI wind-down times are typically related to animations and can't be as easily adjusted as other stats.
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  5. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #5
    Talented Musician Buguba's Avatar
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    Buguba; FYI wind-down times are typically related to animations and can't be as easily adjusted as other stats.
    They can be adjusted, but it'll just interrupt the animation. In the Loota's/Mekboy's case, the animation simply needs to be removed entirely (along with the wind down).

    I think a lot of intra-factional imbalances might pop up if you dropped slugga damage that much, for example. Or looted tanks that already lose handily to space marine counterparts...why make them much worse? Autoshotty scouts/shootas that suppress without an upgrade/termagants with same? Ranged would dominate too handily. Heavy armor taking reduced damage from basic melee? Marines would be unstoppable by all but Eldar. Do you really think setup teams aren't doing enough damage?
    I think you're right on me going overboard with the ranged vs melee part. Probably more my gut reaction with melee absolutely dominating ranged as it is.

    I'm a big proponent of ranged getting their melee slowing/stopping abilities right off the bat though. As it stands, there's absolutely no sense in buying ranged units in the initial engagement when you KNOW they will be steamrolled by melee. Making their melee slowing/stopping abilities available up front would make them viable.

    Of course, like you said, nerfing melee damage at the same time is probably too much.

    Looted Tank rush is still in place right now, and there's more to it than Marines. Reducing their damage would put them in line for cost. As for Marine spam overcoming all in T2 and T3 though, maybe an upkeep increase is in order? I think that's the best solution.

    I DO think that set-up teams aren't doing enough damage for their cost currently. 30 power is a LOT in the tech race. They either need a cost reduction or a damage increase. Set-up teams are still vulnerable too, and they need to deal with mobs effectively to be worthwhile.

    I'll re-edit to some of your suggestions though. I was a little over the top. lol.

  6. #6
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    Maybe it's just me, but I personally like the prolonged T1 fights, they make the game feel a lot more natural and more Dawn of War-like than a mad rush to the top tiers with very few actual units (you can fight in T1, but it's often obsolete if your opponent manages to outtech you). I'd rather have the tier 3 upgrade cost more than all of them costing less. Tier 3 could cost the same as T2, perhaps the current cost for SM since they don't gain as much from it. For the most part I'm really liking the direction they took in the beta with all this.

    I don't see much issues with the beta save for melee being too powerful and SM being nerfed too badly with very few useful units other than scouts. Buffed units and lowered costs (particularily power wise) should do the trick, along with melee damage being slightly reduced/adjusted again.

    As for the TM bolters, I'd rather have the Plasma Gun with increased cost on tier 2, and the two others in tier 1 like Budget suggested, as there's no reason whatsoever to use the other bolters outside team games at least. It doesn't necessarily need a nerf, just a higher cost (say 200/40?) so TM will still have something going for him in late game.
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  7. #7
    Very Disappointed Dux's Avatar
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    I dislike most of these changes, particularly those from Buguba's list (minimum range for a turret?), but I really like this one:

    Pathing should be modified, and the rules for retreating units changed.
    I also think the "push units out of the way on retreat" mechanic is really dumb. Units should be able to swarm and annihilate retreating units in melee.
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  8. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #8
    Talented Musician Buguba's Avatar
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    particularly those from Buguba's list (minimum range for a turret?),
    The minimum range for the turret was to compensate for the fact that I drastically increased its damage at longer range. The minimum range allows melee units (particularly jump units) to engage it without fear of being suppressed by the turret while in CC.

    I also think the "push units out of the way on retreat" mechanic is really dumb. Units should be able to swarm and annihilate retreating units in melee.
    How is that different from the way it was before, with retreating units being mobbed and raped because they couldn't escape?

  9. #9
    I DO think that set-up teams aren't doing enough damage for their cost currently. 30 power is a LOT in the tech race.
    Yeah, it is. If power is to be a pacing element in the game, then having them set to appear at 30 when their counters cost as much (stikkbommas/rangers) or just a bit more (jump troops) limits their allegedly increased utility in tier 1. I'm glad I don't have to advance into a shuriken platform as the initial unit my enemy builds in tier 1 (and mass teleported up my arse), but 20 power seems more balanced in keeping them off the field initially, allow them to get established and change the shape of things, and still allow jump troops to come in and do their thing without dominating for too long.

    Actually, now that I mention this, I have to add something about stikkbommas and ASMs.

    How is that different from the way it was before, with retreating units being mobbed and raped because they couldn't escape?
    I really liked BeasterReborn's idea (which I stole): limit the rape to about 4 seconds (for example) until the unit "gets up to speed (whether or not its actually moving, you start counting from when they hit X, same as retreat speeds).

    Then it's fair!

    After that point, if they run into guys, they don't really slow down, and those guys get out of the way as they do now (which currently, stupidly, happens right away when X is hit).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dux
    I dislike most of these changes
    Any that you didn't dislike, or could you be more specific about what's not to like?
    Last edited by BudgetMessiah; 7th Jul 09 at 3:01 PM.

  10. #10
    Is there a breakdown on what all those terms mean on the Codex weapon pages? Most of them are self explanatory, but what's the difference between a "cooldown" and a "wind down"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bugaba
    - When equipped with the Deffgun or Beamy Deffgun, the Mekboy will no longer teleport to a location while still set-up. When teleported, the Mekboy must set-up again.
    - Mekboy Deffgun no longer has a "wind down" time.
    The Mekboy's deffgun got the same nerfs the suppression teams did, his deffgun isn't as good as the loota deffgun, and his basic shoota got a nerf, too. Unless removing the wind down gives him a sizable DPS increase, it looks like your changes might nerf him into oblivion.

    The banner changes look cool, but 25 power is pretty damn hefty. Does anyone know what specifically they do? The codex is of no help, other than "more speed and damage".

    I agree that units walking around and standing in front of the business end of a turret to melee is terrifically stupid. Where's you sense of self preservation here GUYS?! Maybe each melee attack should cause a brief 0.5-1.0 sec stun? Give the turret a small detection radius so infiltrators can't walk directly up to it and start slapping it around. This might be too good with sluggas nobs breaking suppression, but it's a thought.

  11. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #11
    Talented Musician Buguba's Avatar
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    The Mekboy's deffgun got the same nerfs the suppression teams did, his deffgun isn't as good as the loota deffgun, and his basic shoota got a nerf, too. Unless removing the wind down gives him a sizable DPS increase, it looks like your changes might nerf him into oblivion.
    It does. The 1 second wind down being taken away allows him to fire like other suppression teams. Wind down is just like cooldown in the sense that it's extra delay time, but it's used for a different purpose. Currently, he'll take long breaks between every volley, in which it's easy for CC units or even ranged units to escape his firing arc. The change will allow him to shoot with less time in-between volleys (more shots = more DPS).

    The banner changes look cool, but 25 power is pretty damn hefty. Does anyone know what specifically they do?
    Right now, they basically do the same thing that the "Waaagh!" ability does for normal Orks. They're so cheap because they're only equivilant to about one squad using it. The 25 power would partially be to compensate for the fact that the banner would recieve a huge durability increase with the building_defence armour.

    It's the difference between taking down a power generator (banner's current armor) and a turret (building_defence armor).

  12. #12
    Another suggestion I had as far as Waaagh goes, if people liked the idea of bringing waaagh ability costs somewhere between 1.3 and 1.4 and adding "bonus waaagh" events (i.e. killed a unit while under the effects of waaagh), adding more of that. Have any unit killed in the area of effect of a waaagh banner give more waaagh. Do the same for the Boss Pole (a banner you carry around). Give the Kommando a passive ability he unlocks with any of his weapons called "I'm keepin' score!" where he grants double waaagh bonusses for any unit killed by his special weapons' abilities (he keeps score dishonestly and he can't count!).

    Orks should have access to more waaagh than the other factions, but they should have to fight for it. Waaagh's already a no-brainer, so it's kind of a misrepresentation to say that it would even be fighting "intelligently". Don't think...just waaagh!

  13. #13
    Well here is my "small" list of suggestions:

    General Fixes:

    -These are pretty much the same what BudgetMessiah said already. Except that I don't mind new retreat system, power weapons shouldn't do so huge damage against heavy armor and especially not explosions, plasma is fine though. Faster Zeal/psychic etc. gain. And I fully agree that tier 2 should be cheaper. 125 power is just too much at a times.

    Space Marines

    Note: I can't be too specific about SM because I actually haven't even touched them after the patch because they seem to have become new orks and I didn't like to play old orks so that's why I don't like SM in this patch. But I'll still write what I've observed:
    -Heavy armor change. Well said it there already but I think that this one is still main reason why SM feel like paper now. It needs heavy changes as it currently weakens them so much. If this is properly fixed, I think it solves most SM problems so don't be like "Whaaaah!? You don't want to buff tacs or asm?", because improving heavy armor will be buff already. I think H. Armor should have following damage modifiers:
    Plasma : 1.5 (so that they could be proper counter against heavy armor).
    Normal melee/ranged, flamers, some other dam type I forgot : 0.7-0.8
    Explosions : 1.0 (I see no point why SM should take more dam from explosions).
    Power weapons : 1.0 (This way power weapon units like banshees won't instantly destroy SM squads.)

    This way it still would have it's weakness against plasma, but mainly it would still be more of improvement than disadvantage. And most SM units are still pretty damn expensive so I don't see why they couldn't be tough.

    -Scouts need nerf. They seem to be too effective for SM all around, which they should not be. They should be either melee counter with shotguns or ranged counter with snipers, not both melee and ranged counter with shotguns.
    -Devastator Heavy Bolter could cost little less power. No-one buys it without that new super bullet upgrade so making expensive initially just discourages it's use.
    -Plasma Cannons should get small power fee but to compensate that they should get also small increase in power against vehicles so that they work better as vehicle counter.
    -Predator needs to be more expensive. Now that this patch has improved pathing, tanks really need to be expensive. For Razorback, wartrukks etc. this was made nicely, but for predator and looted tank, not so nicely. It needs hundred more req cost and maybe 10-25 power more. These are just too easily spammable and too hard to destroy thanks to their improved pathing.
    -Terminators need to be powerfull. What is relic afraid of making these guys? Overpowered? They are currently not worth the cost at all, especially now that zeal gain is slower. They need to be killing machines, like Avatar -lite on the field. You can't spam them since they cost so much, so what's the problem?
    -Force Commander. I don't see any other problem than heavy armor but he does need large improvements on it's terminator armor. It just seems too weak.
    -Tech Marine need some nerf on plasma and some buff on heavy bolters. And that relay regen combined with TM regen armor is just ridiculous.

    Eldar

    -Banshees need small damage nerf OR their suppression ability needs to be little shorter (it's quite short already but during the time they use, and especially if there are lots of banshee squads they can make it last for long time and during this time they can devastate squads) and needs to have longer cooldown. Also they should be soft counter against vehicles, not heavy. Seriously, 1 banshee squad with warp spiders destroyed looted tank and 2 squads can eeeasily destroy dread. So their exarch's AV dam should be greatly reduced.
    -Rangers need to cost less power (how hard is that to understand?) and they should have slightly faster firing rate and full squad knockback ability (or the ability should just suppress.).
    -Shuriken Cannon platforms need to be more mobile. They need to move around fast so that they could actually be usefull. And they should cost little less power. I'd say that they should have 2 sec deploy and undeploy and they should have fleet of foot ability. This way they could move around the field faster and keep up with other eldar.
    -Eldar tier 2 is pretty balanced. BL though should do either 50% extra damage or it should do more damage the closer enemy vehicle gets. Also similar to Shuriken cannon it should have fleet of foot. AND it should do atleast decent damage against inf. I hate these "it only works against tanks"-units. Why can't it be atleast ok against infantry.
    -Fire Prism is actually quite fine, but it also could cost little more req and power.
    -D-cannon is fine, but singularity should come faster (now that ýou can see timer when it does that ability it is so easy to dodge. Making time shorter but giving it marker would make it better without making it op).
    -Avatar is ok, but with current T2 and T3 cost it seems like impossibility to get him.
    -Eldar heroes are fine in my opinion.

    Orks

    -Sluggas need small damage nerf (nothing huge so that they will be usefull in later tiers) and their waaagh ability needs to come with upgrade. Why does eldar get their fof through upgrades but not orks? This makes orks too strong in early tier 1 and good ork players will easily take area control.
    -Waaagh-ability for all tier 1 orks should come with upgrade(like burnas, bigshootas, nobs etc.), read description above.
    -Shootas also could use some dam nerf, 'cos people seem to do well spamming these fellas. They still have shootas to compensate so small dam nerf wouldn't hurt.
    -Storm Boyz seem fine to me, I don't see why some people think they are op.
    -StickBommas should throw nades little shorter and their nades should have little longer cooldown to prevent endless barrage of grenades (2 squads throwing nades after another).
    -Lootas to tier 1. They are almost useless in tier 2, they would fare much better at tier 1. Little smaller power cost too and they'll be fine.
    -Kommandos to Tier 2. Nobody buys them at tier 3, 'cos nobs and looted tanks are better. Stealth also is more usefull at tier 2. They should be slightly nerfed to make them not so powerfull at tier 2 (mainly that super powerfull flame grenade) and their nob should be shooty nob not hammer nob.
    -Looted tanks need to be more expensive. Similar to Predator.
    -Ork heroes seem to be fine although mekboy really needs some easier ranged weapon upgrade like some custom shóota, or kustom megablasta.

    Tyranids

    -Gaunts are quite fine now. Although repair ability to "repair" fexes would not be bad.
    -Warriors will be okay once Heavy armor is fixed.
    -Raveners seem to be fine now too, although they should not regen energy when they are underground 'cos it is like stealth.
    -Spore Mines are ridiculous. Their super explode ability is crazy. First of all super explosion ability should cost tyranid bioenergy or whatever. Secondly instead of instagibbing squads it should do like large damage to large area and mainly weaken squads not kill them. And tanks should only get something like 150-300 dam from that blast. But it should have little larger aoe. Also short suppression to squads would be nice.
    -Zoans need more dam against infantry, they are somewhat underpowered now.
    -Carnifexes need better speed or better health. I'd lean to speed. They are just too slow and they have somewhat weak dps aswell. They should be stronger than what they are now. Also they should either have regen at base or that gaunt repair ability.
    -Venom Brood is same as warriors. It will be okay once heavy armor is fixed.
    -Screamer Killer needs much larger damage to it's attacks. It's just too weak.
    -Lictors are ok but they kinda still feel too weak. Maybe they should have some extra dam, health or energy not sure.

  14. #14
    Very Disappointed Dux's Avatar
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    Any that you didn't dislike, or could you be more specific about what's not to like?
    Global:
    - I don't think messing with Tier costs is necessary right now. They feel pretty good to me.
    - Your turret healing idea is interesting, but I don't really like it much. HQ healing presently punishes players more for retreating, which I like. TM relay healing could be toned down a bit, though; I don't think it should heal more than the HQ.
    - The only thing that should be modified with heavy armor is a reduction in the bonus from explosive/autocannon damage. I would change it from 2x to 1.5x. If this happens, though, then the Fire Prism dispersed shot needs to be rebuffed.
    - I agree with normalizing building damage but I disagree with reducing it. I like how easily harrasable gen farms are now.
    - I completely disagree with the wargear standardization suggestion. The way it is currently adds nice variety to the game, and it doesn't imbalance a thing.

    Eldar:
    - I disagree with removing Banshee's power weapons to start; it works well presently.
    - I disagree with all of your power-cost-lowering suggestions for Eldar.
    - Buffing the Falcon and making it cheaper is frankly insane; with the new pathing and enhanced energy regeneration (stealth buff), the new Falcon kicks all sorts of ass.
    - I disagree with your Ranger changes (except for removing tear down time -- I agree there), but I would like to see the energy cost of Kinetic Pulse lowered significantly.
    - Doom is fine. It isn't quite as good as Mark Target but it also comes out earlier.
    - Haywire damage was already nerfed, and it's good now.

    Ork:
    - I disagree with everything except reducing Stikkbomma grenade range, but this is mostly just because it currently looks ridiculous.
    - Slugga damage should be slightly reduced as well (~23 DPS instead of the current 27).

    SM:
    - Snipers should be made a bit cheaper and shotguns should simply be nerfed in damage.
    - I mostly agree with your Thunder and Lightning suggestion, but I would make the Melta Bomb part only unlock after Tier 2. A vehicle counter like that in Tier 1 isn't really fair.
    - Disagree on cost changes.
    - TM Plasma should be made more expensive and nerfed in damage a bit, but it shouldn't be moved to Tier 2. The other two bolters could use a small damage buff to make them superior to the starting bolter in DPS. Adding stun to Bionics is a cool idea, but I disagree with messing with Signum.
    - AFAIK Combat Stims weren't changed in the patch, which means they still give the targeted squad a 1.75x damage bonus. This is fucking huge. There's certainly no need to buff this.
    - Predator cost needs to be increased significantly. With the pathing change and armor upgrade options, these things are now insane.

    Nid:
    - Giving Raveners heavy armor isn't a bad idea, but I would also lower their HP, remove their power weapons, and significantly increase their melee DPS. The HP nerf is the most important change IMO; these are my #1 most imba unit, especially in team games where a critical mass is easier to achieve.

    Anything that I didn't mention means I agree with you on that point fully.

  15. #15
    dux currently a genfarm can be killed by a single gaunt squad in about 20 seconds.. if your on the otherside of the map with your army thats it.

    the damage even normilised will result in people hanging around genfarms instead of playing because they die to fast if your not there at the moment there hit there gone.

    For races such as sm they will HAVE to stick around because they cant fight without power, while mass shees etc dont need power...

  16. #16
    Pathing should be modified, and the rules for retreating units changed.
    I'm in favour of this, but it should possibly have its own topic for discussion. There are a couple of issues with the current pathing / retreating situation:
    • Your own units get out the way of your retreating units. If you have a couple of squads retreating to your base, and you try and move some of your units from your base forwards to the fight again, you can't. They'll carry on running backwards and scattering to get out the way of the retreating units. This is very irritating.
    • The penalty for allowing yourself to be completely surrounded is minute compared to what it used to be. Before you had to be careful not to let enemy units cut off your lines of retreat; now you just don't care. Press X and the enemy units will obligingly get out of the way for you to retreat through their army. X now really is a get out of jail free card.

  17. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #17
    Talented Musician Buguba's Avatar
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    Predator cost needs to be increased significantly. With the pathing change and armor upgrade options, these things are now insane.
    I don't think so. Once other things have been rebalanced a bit (explosive damage vs. heavy infantry, Screamer Killer made better vs. vehicles, etc.) the Predator will have more than its fair share of counters.

    The Looted Tank is the one that needs looking at. 350 req and 100 power for an Orkified Pred? Now THAT'S insane. It needs a DPS nerf or a cost increase.

  18. #18
    @Jask- Maybe having Carni's able to eat gaunts for health would be a good idea

    Making tac's like they used to be would be great. Making plasma devs back the way they used to be would be great aswell.

    pretty much everthing else is covered by numerous other posts

  19. #19
    @ Buguba

    The SM Predator crushes Ork armor. I don't fear their tanks when I can field their SM equivalent. The biggest problem I have with Ork tanks is that they kill their stopgap counter, Tactical Marines and ASMs.

    @Dux

    It's too easy to tier up now, and when you hit 2 it's very common to go right by to 3 (I know, I've been watching peoples' replays, and it's quite common, particularly in team games). I've talked to players in game about this, and I consistently hear the opinion that it's too expensive to field most of the troops in the early game and build and maintain gen farms and keep moving towards Tier 2. Lowering unit power costs and readjusting tiering power costs would promoting more units, straight up and simple.

    There's some stuff you're misinformed of (Haywires weren't touched in 1.4, Combat stims nerfed from .75 to .4). That aside, I'm actually surprised with the list of your responses, Dux. You really think the early banshee rush is fair against marines? You think Heavy Armor is OK as is (but are concerned that the Fire Prism somehow be able to counter its counter). Your biggest concern was nerfing the predator (Gee...I wonder if this is to benefit certain pointy-eared pilots). You're dead on about Doom though. You and Itssexytime rightly point out that, while its supposed to be "better" because the eldar are "worse" at front-loaded damage, being able to field it so soon is a huge benefit. That's the "better" the developers put into it (and that's the process they should apply to all the wargear, WSE I am looking at you).

    The eldar are clearly overpowered in this patch, particularly vs space marine. The only way a SM player beats an Eldar player is by being significantly better skilled. Eldar are the new tyranid, straight and simple. I keep running into them in automatch for a reason.

    @Jask

    I like your list as well. A couple of things tho, you mention Force Commander and Heavy Armor. While his guys having heavy armor is a bummer because their weakness is his weakness, this is only through association, he actually has (like all heroes, I think) Commander Armor, which is good. Maybe it should be better vs melee. And you really want the D-Cannon to fire its singularity faster? It seems just about perfect right now, if you're running with anything other than Eldar or Tyranid armies by the time you see the template marker, you're going to get a little roughed up, it seems. That's perfect.
    Last edited by BudgetMessiah; 8th Jul 09 at 8:47 AM.

  20. #20
    Very Disappointed Dux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buguba
    The Looted Tank is the one that needs looking at. 350 req and 100 power for an Orkified Pred? Now THAT'S insane. It needs a DPS nerf or a cost increase.
    The Predator has more health and quite a bit more DPS than the Looted Tank, just FYI. Looted Tank could probably use a cost increase as well, though.

    @BudgetMessiah:
    I haven't experienced the teching problems that you're talking about, but maybe I will with more play in this patch.

    Are you sure that Haywire damage was untouched? It seems lower. In any case, I don't think it's a problem. WS are supposed to be good at what they do.

    I wasn't aware of the Combat Stim nerf; but I agree that it was fine at .75. This change should be reverted.

    I find the Banshee rush pretty easy to counter as SM in this patch. Shotguns, Battle Cry, MCB Suppression Shot and Purification Rites all work very well. I actually have a much tougher time countering Banshees in mirrors as Eldar (I've been trying to counter them without using any Banshees myself).

    What I said about Heavy Armor is that it shouldn't receive as high of a bonus from autocannon/explosive weapons. The Fire Prism would need to be buffed to compensate simply because it was nerfed in this patch on account of the high bonus it has against heavy infantry (unlike every other tank/arty weapon, which kept the same DPS as before and summarily rapes everything Space Marine now).

    I really don't think Eldar are the "new Tyranid" in this patch at all. They actually feel pretty balanced right now, but Banshee HP might be slightly too high. I would lower their HP but give them a better melee damage resistance aura so that they will kick ass in melee as they should but die like flies to focus fire. The counter to Banshees should never be melee unless it's massed melee; no single unit (except maybe Seer Council and Nobs) should be able to take on Banshees in 1v1 melee, ever.

    Orks are easily the most overpowered race right now; all you need to do is spam Sluggas and you win because they are the most cost-effective unit in the game by far. Their one weakness, suppression, can be easily broken by a cheap ability that comes out in Tier 1. Shotguns may counter them a bit, but Big Shootas counter the fuck out of Shotgun Scouts so that doesn't really matter.

    Nid is pretty messed up at the moment. They have a handful of underpowered units (Carnifex, Warriors), a handful of solid units (Gaunts) and then one really overpowered unit that can completely break the game once critical mass is reached (Raveners).

    SM feel good from an internal balance perspective, except for the fact that Scout Shotguns are a little too good. However, they suffer in this patch as a result of everyone else getting super-buffed melee units.

  21. #21
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    The teching problem is a by-product of the 70 second time to reach T2.

    In that 70 seconds, it's not uncommon to have near 100 power lying around. That's the issue. The T2 research time needs to come down and you won't have people immediately going for T3.

    There's nothing you can spend power on while you're teching to T2 outside of upgrades on existing units and reinforcement costs.

    T2 just needs to be researched faster (45 seconds maybe?). If you're only at 50 power when T2 hits, you've got tons of options open (T2 units, T2 upgrades, vehicles, etc.) while T3 is still a little far off.

    I honestly wouldn't mind if T3 was a little harder to reach (200/125).
    Semi-Retired


  22. #22
    yeah I think T3 needs to go up in cost just to keep the T2 units useful. The whole dev comment about 'T3 doesn't really add much' is daft, With the upgrades to tank pathing they're a HUGE deal. (Maybe vehicle pathing fix was quite late in dev cycle which is why Screamer Fex is so rubbish?

  23. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #23
    Talented Musician Buguba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
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    Mount of Olives
    The SM Predator crushes Ork armor. I don't fear their tanks when I can field their SM equivalent. The biggest problem I have with Ork tanks is that they kill their stopgap counter, Tactical Marines and ASMs.
    The Predator has more health and quite a bit more DPS than the Looted Tank, just FYI. Looted Tank could probably use a cost increase as well, though.
    The problem isn't the side by side comparison. The Predator defeats every tank in 1 on 1 combat no question. The problem is simply how they perform against the enemy army, not how they perform against each other. How often do you see straight tank battles anyway (besides this beta)?

    The Looted Tank DPS is actually only slightly less against infantry than the Predator, and for 150 req + 25 power less. When it comes to simply getting a tank to take on enemy infantry, the Looted Tank beats the Predator for cost any day.

    Which is partly why Orks STILL skip T2 to go T3.

    The teching problem is a by-product of the 70 second time to reach T2.

    In that 70 seconds, it's not uncommon to have near 100 power lying around. That's the issue. The T2 research time needs to come down and you won't have people immediately going for T3.

    There's nothing you can spend power on while you're teching to T2 outside of upgrades on existing units and reinforcement costs.

    T2 just needs to be researched faster (45 seconds maybe?). If you're only at 50 power when T2 hits, you've got tons of options open (T2 units, T2 upgrades, vehicles, etc.) while T3 is still a little far off.

    I honestly wouldn't mind if T3 was a little harder to reach (200/125).
    I really agree with you, FooF. I think increasing the cost of T3 slightly (to your suggestion) and cutting the T2 time slightly would make the tech race slightly less T1 ---> T3.

    I think a time decrease between 45 to 55 seconds would suffice with a cost increase.

  24. #24
    Member Carl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    The Crossroads of Inertia
    If you want my shortlist:

    general bugs and broad balance statments



    comments on above



    specific unit changes and the like



    comments on above



    Econemy and Teching Changes



    comments on above



    Is that it???

    Last edited by Carl; 8th Jul 09 at 1:26 PM.
    I don't know what i'm talking about, ignore me.

    Thousands of years ago, Egyptians worshipped what would become our ordinary housecat. The cats have never forgotten this.


  25. #25
    The Fire Prism would need to be buffed to compensate simply because it was nerfed in this patch on account of the high bonus it has against heavy infantry (unlike every other tank/arty weapon, which kept the same DPS as before and summarily rapes everything Space Marine now).
    I think the Fire Prism was nerfed because it was amazingly good and made infantry a moot point at T3, which doesn't play very well in a game with an extended infantry intensive tier 1.

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