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Raveners

  1. #1
    Very Disappointed Dux's Avatar
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    Raveners

    With 1200 HP, these things are hardly the "fragile, high-damage" units that their tooltip suggests (well, the "high-damage" part is right, anyway). No, they're actually tied for highest HP unit in Tier 1 along with ASM. Only they're cheaper than ASM. And they get an anti-all plasma upgrade in Tier 1. And they disrupt on jump (burrow strike, whatever) just like ASM. Ravener mass with Devourers = gg, no re.

    So, yeah. OP much?

    Discuss.
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  2. #2
    Relic wants you to spam. Embrace the spam and add some eggs to it for a nice omelet.

  3. #3
    Chappy FooF's Avatar
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    Raveners are a little overboard.

    Personally, I think they shouldn't have any more HP than Warriors, or only marginally so. 960 for Raveners is plenty. 1200 is too high.

    They also stole a lot of the Warrior's thunder when they do everything vanilla Warriors can do but better (minus the Barbed Strangler, which different not better, and synapse, which isn't that impressive anymore). Granted, Warriors are cheaper, but not with the BS upgrade.

    I'd vote for a reduction in HP, but that's probably the extent of it.

    Wait, I have a better idea to nerf them...give them Heavy Armor!
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  4. #4
    They're very good, but it costs a fortune to get them and a more aggressive player will push you off your gens before you get critical mass.

    Also 1200 HP? WTF? Is someone out there not getting a HT with health synapse, VC & Warp Field???

  5. #5
    Very Disappointed Dux's Avatar
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    Yeah they get truly outrageous with HT Health Synapse. I agree with FooF; I think they should get an HP nerf, at least to 960. I also am not opposed to the idea of giving them heavy armor, but the HP definitely needs to go down. They're not "fragile" at all. It almost makes me think that their current HP was a mistake.

  6. #6
    Their price point is comparable to that tac blob everybody complained about in 1.3, only these are also jump troops that can infiltrate (in t2, with a further upgrade), and their plasma upgrade is available in t1 instead of t2.

    They also run faster, shoot faster, and all 3 units get their plasma upgrade instead of 1.

    The only downside to them compared to a tac blob would be they can't fire on the move I guess.

  7. #7
    Is watching TheDeadlyShoe's Avatar
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    3 units get their plasma upgrade instead of 1.
    All else being equal, this is actually a downside. Their firepower decreases in a linear fashion rather than having 2-3 damage sponges with comparitively low firepower.
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  8. #8
    Raveners will need some balancing when all the other bullshit gets fixed but right now I think they're pretty low on the priority list. They cost 400/40 (+75/25 for devourers?) which makes it significantly slower and more expensive to mass than any of the other popular units right now. You will need at least 3 squads before you hit critical mass although by that point your opponent will probably have vehicles brewing. Despite devourers being a supposed "soft" counter to vehicles, you will have nothing to fear from their 12dps per squad.

    Dunno what to do with ravs.

    Tyranid tier 1:

    Guants get out-classed by every single melee unit (except asm, hurrrrr) and raeped by shotguns... so basically all the current flavour of the month units annihilate them.

    I have decided that Gants are trash, their dps is terrible and require too much support to be effective. I find that the best way to effectively use termagants always involves out-spending the enemy, which makes it a bit of a moot point.

    Warrior Brood... vanilla WB are a complete liability, get chewed up by pretty much anything and then synapse decimates your guants. BS WB, had moderate success with them but I've found them to still be too easily countered and a liability vs better players.

    So you can see why someone would want to spam raveners. Raveners are Tyranids version of SM scouts.
    Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs

  9. #9
    tbh I think they're O.K. (as someone who's both been on the reciving end of them and used them)

    when you get 4-8 out they're utterly obscene but in order to get that many you have to significantly out-play your opponent.

    If they manage to delay you long enough orks or SM can get out a tank which will cause some problems. It's very similar to 1.4 tac spam. Not that hot early game, but basically unbeatable without tanks late game (bad luck for 'nids with their gimpy fex)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by FooF
    Wait, I have a better idea to nerf them...give them Heavy Armor!
    Way ahead of you

  11. #11
    As a side not: I've not actually seen or experienced anyone struggle against Raveners except for force commander space marine players who aren't up to date with the meta-game and don't whore scouts to their full potential.

  12. #12
    Raveners are the only saving grace nids have right now and with devourers they cost 460/75 with mediocre damage, they're good but they certainly don't need a nerf.

  13. #13
    Heh, yeah, I'm looking at it specifically from space marines perspective. They've got power weapon claws and a ranged plasma weapon upgrade.

    Tac marines? No.
    ASM? Really no.
    Devastators? It's a jump squad so...uh...

    Answer, as with everything else, is moar scouts.

    And that just makes me sad.

    The other races seem significantly more capable of dealing with them.

  14. #14
    Posted this over at the official forums;

    Banshees murder them. Sluggas with some upgrades murder them. Shotgun scouts for cost can beat them... All of the "flavour of the month" units are more effective, cost less, can be built and massed earlier etc.

    Their infiltration is not that great.

    1. Scout sergeants detect. Did you forgot to build some scout sergeants? You've got no excuses in 1.4, they come in tier 1 now and their grenades are ace so what are you waiting for?

    2. Nob leaders detect. Orks should have plenty of them running around. No exceptions.

    3. Eldar... OK Eldar need rangers to detect and that can be frustrating because you probably don't want to build rangers. Eldar are the only race that actually have to put effort into detecting the raveners.

    4. It costs 50 energy to infiltrate, once they are burrowed they will no longer to able to use their tier 1 burrow attack because it costs 70 energy and they only have 100 total.

    5. They can't attack while infiltrated.

    Now onto the stats of the Raveners.

    1. 1200hp is not "fragile" like the tool tip says. Agreed but should the stats be fixed to match the tool tip, or should the tool tip to fixed to match the stats? Before we go nerfing their HP into the ground, lets look at their other stats.

    2. Their scything talons deal roughly 19dps each, although they count as power weapons so that is boosted to roughly 25dps vs heavy infantry. Bare in mind that there are ONLY 3 RAVENERS. Sluggas have 27dps each and come in squads of 6, Banshees deal 28(36)dps and come in squads of 5. Assault marines, who are considered to be significantly underpowered deal almost 27dps with their chainswords. Even hormagaunts out-damage raveners in CC with 15dps each (squad of 8).

    3. Devourers. Roughly 66(99)dps to infantry per squad is pretty damn beefy and yes I would agree vs heavy_inf this is too strong in tier 1. One disadvantage of devourers is that they suffer from dps drop-off with the death of each ravener, unlike a weapon upgrade that keeps pumping out damage to the last man.

    So looking at their stats I think it's clear that without their 1200hp, they would be absolutely atrocious in melee, even worse than assault marines. So we could reduce their HP to fit the tool tip, then buff their melee damage up the ying-yang... or simply remove the "fragile" bit out of the tool tip. Devourers could keep their basic damage and get some kind of upgrade in tier 2 to change them to plasma weapons, however I'd be hesitant to fiddle with the unit cost since I think they're pretty fairly costed already. Maybe the upgrade to plasma weapon could be an automatic upgrade when you hit tier 2? Would that be possible from a code perspective?

  15. #15
    Agreed entirely chris, raveners seem OP untill you realise how little damage they do in comparsion to other melee units, and the fact they get raped by banshees and sluggas.

  16. #16
    maybe why they are powerful currently is because of burrow(besides the hp), it currently lets nids escape grenades which have already landed and makes it impossible to really deal with them..except shotgunspam.. that works...

    No unit in gamenot even asm can escape a grenade thats already landed.

  17. #17
    except the fact that burrow is worthless in any match unless vs eldar, assuming they don't just build some rangers, and even then banshees will tear through raveners.

  18. #18
    I've had a lot of success using Raveners with Devourers to engage stuff at range. When they charge you, you 'jump' the Raveners back and hammer them some more, then retreat if any units manage to close with you.

    I do feel they're a little OP now; they feel like WS squads but with a load of health and less susceptiblity to CC. WS cost a load and do a load of damage but you can cost the Eldar player by picking off WS squadmembers. The relatively high HP of Raveners means that it's a lot harder to harm the 'nid player. Perhaps make the squad up of 4 members instead of 3 and divide the DPS and health accordingly so the squad DPS and health is still the same?

  19. #19
    After a game last night I noticed that the knockback from their 'jump' appears to affect retreating units, though I don't know if the Enhanced Muscle Coil is necessary for that.

  20. #20
    Very Disappointed Dux's Avatar
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    I'm happy with the Ravener changes, but I feel like they could use a slight melee damage buff. Still, they will be more-than-capable of fulfilling their assault role now without being OP en masse.

  21. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #21
    Talented Musician Buguba's Avatar
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    I feel like they could use a slight melee damage buff.
    I think that it's fine as it is. They're meant for assault, not direct melee. It's only sensible that direct melee units beat them 1 on 1. You have Warriors for direct melee.
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  22. #22
    they got tweaked, from the patch 1.4.2 notes
    Raveners
    • Ravener HP decreased from 400 to 300 per unit
    • Ravener Devourer changed to Bolter damage type, damage reduced from 110 to 85

    How do you think this will affect ravener and tyranids in general?

  23. #23
    Does anyone have any hard numbers on how the plasma -> bolter change will affect the Devourer

  24. Modding Senior Member Dawn of War II Senior Member  #24
    Talented Musician Buguba's Avatar
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    Does anyone have any hard numbers on how the plasma -> bolter change will affect the Devourer
    Damage against heavy infantry will be more sliced down to almost 1/3rd of what it used to. Bolter damage does 0.6 damage to heavy infantry now, and plasma does 1.5 damage to heavy infantry.

    Damage against vehicles will be reduced to nil. Plasma did 0.2 damage against vehicles. Bolters do 0.01 damage.

    It was a huge nerf with no benifits. I'm not sure if it was completely necessary when paired with the 110 to 85 reduction.

    How do you think this will affect ravener and tyranids in general?
    Nids are going to suck now.

    Hormagaunts are overpriced compared to other starting melee units, termagants are terrible, Warriors die in droves to melee and aren't any better with their Barbed Strangler upgrade. Spore Mines have had their purpose completely upset by the size change, and now will be worthless against all forms of ranged units.

    Zoan warp disable nerf was completely unwarranted. What was once a pathetic unit is now the most overpriced piece of junk in the game. The Fex STILL does pathetic damage to vehicles in melee, and the Screamer Killer VC still can't take on a tank of much lesser cost.

    Oh, and Rippers, which are one of the RAREST units in the game, cannot cap anymore. What the hell?

    Only bright sides are that VC broods can effectively take on vehicles now (like they were ALWAYS supposed to do), and melee Raveners are balanced!

  25. Dawn of War II Senior Member  #25
    Senior Member whatsleft's Avatar
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    Does anyone have any hard numbers on how the plasma -> bolter change will affect the Devourer
    ouch, look up, post failed.

  26. #26
    They didn't want for nids to be OP anymore in any area. I guess it was a huge success.

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  27. #27
    Thanks for the number-crunch, Buguba. And what numbers... jeez, that really does seem more than a little harsh. I'd have thought the softly-softly approach would have been better; first the damage reduction, then see how it plays, then other changes as needed. Devourers have gone from being damn good (and I, personally thought slightly OP), to being utterly useless vs SM and no longer a soft counter to vehicles.

  28. Dawn of War Senior Member  #28
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
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    Er, Raveners were borderline OP when massed... like ASM spam only with stabby and shooty bits. The nerf may have been excessive...

    On the other hand, this will encourage more termigant/hormigaunt/ravener combos, which I suppose is fair... except that termi's ranged dps seems pretty underwhelming ATM.

    Warriors are not anything to get worked up about, and psychic backlash really hurts the little guys. I think Nids are the only army in the game now that pretty much require 4 different units in one fight to perform effectively for cost. Anyone who whined about Nid micro requirements in retail can feel much better about the fact that nids might be the most micro intensive race to play. ouch. OTOH, I am more interested in playing nids as I love a challenge, and I still want to get my RA on.
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