Nids suck [1.4.2]

[Aquila]

For the record, I for one am glad that we've finally reached a point where I see the opponent has a Tyranid player and don't immediately think 'oh crap, this match is going to be a pain.'

Are they 'fine?' Of course not, the whole game's screwy right now. Too many issues for me to even count. But the 'Nids are more in line with the other races than they ever have been before. Maybe, someday, we'll see true parity.

[Troubleshooter]

The game right now has no glaring imbalances... thats the first time I've been able to say that with a straight face about a Relic title in a long time.

No one race has a zero-win scenario. There are certainly some slanted match-ups, but these are minor tweaks needed, not major rebalance inssues.

Theres no "new nids".

[Demonhorde]

Some people will never be satisfied untill we get Warcraft 2 same units all races diffrent skin.

[PhobosMoon]

Nids seem to do no where near the damage they should be doing.. Where I literally can wipe out an entire tyranid player with Tac, scouts, and apothecary.. Even when the gaunts have them tied up.. Gaunts just don't do enough damage.. The only close thing that I have seen that is remotely good is the barbed strangler early on.. I also saw a apothecary with one heal out damage a Hive Tyrant.. I don't see how that is balanced.. A tank out damaging a support unit, both had no gear and were level 1..

[MasterBlaster]

Phobos...... Tac squads+apoth wipe out fc or TM tac blobs, asm counter,vehicles everything actually in mirror matches.
It isnt a good example of why nids are weak.

[Saias]

Have you seen how slowly that thing fires? A predator or looted tank can 2-3 shot tier 1 infantry, only it will do it in 1/2 the time.

predators cost nearly twice the amount, are tier3, don't suppress and have half the aoe? ok then.

[Chris]

I've been fiddling around with LA/RA for a bit in automatch and my god, without early synapse Tyranids are so SHIT. Guants basically can't win against anything for cost, best they can manage is pushing scouts/guardians back (and taking casualties in the process while inflicting none in return). I take back what I said about guants being worth their cost, I didn't realise how much of a difference being the HT actually made.

Nids seem to do no where near the damage they should be doing..

This is so true. I've had the (dis)pleasure of playing against many Eldar players who are aware of this. They allow my guants to melee their guardians and then grenade spike the guants. It's basically impossible to dodge once you're in melee, at most you will kill 2 guardians whereas you're looking at 6-7 dead guants, possibly a full wipe out. Trying this shit against Sluggas or banshees will get you absolutely mauled but not with guants.

Fun fact of the day: Tyrant improved synapse is bugged and buffing troops by 50% instead of 25%. Figured there should have been a reason why the Tyrant was so viable. -_-

predators cost nearly twice the amount, are tier3, don't suppress and have half the aoe? ok then.

WTF are you talking about. Screamer killer is tier 3 and is the most expensive unit in the game. You don't know what you're talking about.

[CommissarRezail]

Screamer killer cost 600 135 power i believe, so by far its the most expensive walker unit you ever seen on the field. If you down one you make the nid player cry because i cryed when 2 of mine went down T-T

[GrimDark]

Funny, how much repairing during fight changes the odds. One wraithlord killed my 2 fexes (1 started the fight, second came in when first was too damaged, when 2'd started to fight 1st one came back to the fight).

Also, wraithbone synergy. lol.

Banshees kept my army at bay... And I lost 2 fexes. Fun times.

Also, someone explain the purpose of Lictor Alpha to me. PLEASE.
He fails vs anything that is not heavy weapons team or a platform without large investment in power! I would gladly at least use him as a scout, but even that is denied as detectors are everywhere now negating 3/4 of his offensive wargear.

Also, lack of synapse - as Chris noticed have kicked my TS down by a large chunk - as my gaunts/gants are worth so much less without it, as I try and try again to do something with that Lictor...

[Cadian Guard]

"They allow my guants to melee their guardians and then grenade spike the guants."

thats not the fault on the gaunts that the fault on Relic not making team damage high enough. i know this because as an ork player, my sluggas engaged GU and the GU will spike the grenade and i will lose a massive chunk of my hp while the guardians will lose only about 1/4 of theirs i believe. anyways the gaunts are not at fault, the fact that the eldar player is able to get away with literally blowing themselves up.

and in other news nade spiking with a stikkbomba squad is funny and painful....

@ Grim

then stop wasting money on fexes. just build gaunts and VC warriors. VC warriors have been buffed and...well...gaunts are gaunts...use em

[Buguba]

Buguba I don't know what to tell you

I've never had the least trouble against slugga spam builds

balanced shoota/sluggas or heavy shootas seem much more difficult to me.

Or more to the point the Warboss, which will run over your gaunts with his Stomp... you just have to wear him down.

I don't think that straight sluggas will beat a combo Nid army, but I think even the slightest variation (such as 1 stormboy squad) will.

My point right now is that too much of the Nid balance hangs on the Barbed Strangler and early synapse, and that much of the Nid units are overpriced or are pretty underwhelming on some respect.

I've been fiddling around with LA/RA for a bit in automatch and my god, without early synapse Tyranids are so SHIT. Guants basically can't win against anything for cost, best they can manage is pushing scouts/guardians back (and taking casualties in the process while inflicting none in return). I take back what I said about guants being worth their cost, I didn't realise how much of a difference being the HT actually made.

QFT.

[Cadian Guard]

"I don't think that straight sluggas will beat a combo Nid army"

then didnt relic succeed in making a least a race that can fend off a "only this unit" build? the nids force the ork players to actually consider something other than mass sluggas with burnas

[Buguba]

then didnt relic succeed in making a least a race that can fend off a "only this unit" build? the nids force the ork players to actually consider something other than mass sluggas with burnas

SM can do it too, but I can't speak for Eldar. Now that sluggas aren't quite so ridiculous in melee, a Tac + scout shotgun combo will beat slugga spam.

[Dux]

Nids have a few things that are underpowered, namely:

- Termagant damage is too low. They need either a straight DPS buff (minor) or improved damage while under synapse. Or a combination of both.
- Screamer-Killer is probably a tad overpriced, and the VC upgrade should be made more accurate against infantry and/or damage buffed. With synapse, however, this thing is actually pretty good (overpriced, but good).
- Ravener melee DPS is a bit underwhelming; it should be increased slightly.

Everything else isn't bad. I certainly wouldn't say that Nids suck in this patch; they certainly don't suck when compared to other races as much as all of the other races sucked when compared to Nids in 1.3.

[Chris]

1.3 is totally irrelevant, focus on balancing what we have now. Currently Nids seem to have 1 build and 1 build only;

Hive Tyrant
3X guants
BS warriors
VC Brood if game drags into tier 2

This tactic is effective due to early tyrant synapse giving guants added survivability which then snowballs when the (bugged) improved synapse is purchased. The same tactic with RA or LA is noticably less effective due to the fact that without early synapse, you need to purchase AG sooner so your guants can put up a fight. However, purchasing AG will slow your warrior brood down, delaying synapse even further and the all-important suppression. This also means that you can't afford to equip wargear on your heroes, because even the cheapest comes in at 20-25 power. The Tyrant on the other hand can afford to buy either rending talons or psychic scream a little earlier, thus giving you more muscle on the field.

Gants? Useless. Raveners? Pretty much useless. Spore mines? Die too quickly now, basically useless. Carnifex? With synapse not so useless anymore but game will probably be lost or won long before you build one. T3 in general; useless.

[D-coy]

Do Warriors have the special melee and ranged synapse now, or were those removed and they only kept the basic synapse which reduces suppression and damage taken?

I wonder if it would be a good idea to give warriors all the special synapse auras (basic, ranged and melee) initially, so they become useful even without BSs. Oh and their AGs upgrade needs a serious price decrease.

[Aetherfox]

Termagants still increase the damage taken by their target unit by all other tyranid weapons.

can i get a confirmation on this from anyone else or a link to source? i seemed to remember this from ages ago, but i never saw conclusive proof of it.

[Chris]

Do Warriors have the special melee and ranged synapse now, or were those removed and they only kept the basic synapse which reduces suppression and damage taken?

I wonder if it would be a good idea to give warriors all the special synapse auras (basic, ranged and melee) initially, so they become useful even without BSs. Oh and their AGs upgrade needs a serious price decrease.

DoWCodex has this listed under "melee Synapse" which Adrenal warriors allegedly provide.

Damage Bonus

* Level 1 Melee Weapon Damage x 1.3
* Level 2 Melee Weapon Damage x 1.339
* Level 3 Melee Weapon Damage x 1.37917
* Level 4 Melee Weapon Damage x 1.4205451
* Effect Radius = 35

Hormagaunts Leap

* Allow Hormagaunts to leap at the enemy, leap range = 14
* Effect Radius = 45

I couldn't confirm it for certain however, since adrenal warriors are an over-priced, non-viable and generally redundant unit and I have never been able to build them in a game that wasn't completely one sided.

can i get a confirmation on this from anyone else or a link to source? i seemed to remember this from ages ago, but i never saw conclusive proof of it.

In-game tool tip doesn't say anything about it, pretty sure it used to mention it. Can't find anything on DoWCodex that would indicate they have this ability.

[D-coy]

Thanks for the info Chris.

If the melee synapse does work, maybe moving Warrior AG to Tier 1 is a good idea? It's expensive for sure, but that'd boost the effectiveness of both Gaunts and Warriors, which might be needed.

[Dux]

I am 70% sure (so I could be utterly, horribly wrong) that Adrenal Warriors no longer provide any special synapse aura despite what is listed on DoWCodex. Hormagaunt enemy leap now comes from their own upgrade anyway (cover leap comes from basic synapse). However, I am not so sure that basic synapse doesn't provide benefits other than what's listed on DoWCodex currently; it seems better than what's listed on DoWCodex, but I can't tell for sure. In any case, I think basic synapse should be providing a lot of bonuses now that the particular synapse types are gone.

[D-coy]

AFAIK, Warriors do provide melee synapse. With or without their AG I don't know, but I heard that the Gaunt AG makes Hormas leap onto units, while the Warrior AG makes them jump over cover.

[Dux]

Basic synapse, whether it comes from the HT or Warriors, makes Gaunts jump over cover now. This is mentioned nowhere on DoWCodex, but it's obvious in-game. I feel like there has to be other bonuses granted by basic synapse, because it seems to make units a lot better than a simple .8x damage taken modifier would. This is particularly true with Carnifexes.

[Troubleshooter]

Rather than buff Termi DPS, I'd rather see the additive effect of his weapon modifier buffed. Make the termi unit a major support element, not a line-infantry fighter. Either that or make the modifier stack... more termies focus fireing on a unit, the more damage it takes from everything!

[Frigidair44]

Apparently a carnifex can kill a scout with sargeant squad in one swipe. I found out the hard way.

I'd figure one swipe would cut him in half. Oh well.

I've been playing Nidz lately... and literally you cannot win if you do not go the HT route. His early synapse is essential.

I been playing with a scrubby 3 hormagaunt upgraded to AG build with the tyrant. First upgrade I get for the tyrant is the Health Synapse Upgrade.

I snowball just about over everything. Gaunts are over 1000 HP with that upgrade, and then go for the 1st Melee that gives the knockback option for the tyrant.

The gaunts are almost unstoppable. I can kill shees, sluggas with burnas, and even TACs without a problem.

I usually got Raveners after that for disruption, but I may try Warrior BS to see how that does. If I'm doing it right I'm dominating the map and getting to Tier 2. And a fex long before SM get there... and a FEX versus Tier 1 units is a game ender.

Then I mix and max with warriors with AG, or go tier 3 for Lictors.

The point is, I tried this build with the Lictor (my favorite commander this side of the Warboss), and it FAILS. No synapse, the Gaunts die a miserable death.

[GrimDark]

Tyrant improved synapse, as it works at 200% efficiency, everything else (minus BS warriors, with are good, and ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to survival and VC warriors with do what they should) is sub-par.

Current tyranid heroes in terms of power:
1 Tyrant (synapse! without it you will lose from the start)
2 Ravener (can still get synapse - but late; fast transport is a nice bonus)
3 Lictor (uuuh.... stealth HBdevs distrupt? yea, i do not see them often too)

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I usually got Raveners after that for disruption, but I may try Warrior BS to see how that does. If I'm doing it right I'm dominating the map and getting to Tier 2. And a fex long before SM get there... and a FEX versus Tier 1 units is a game ender.

If you're HT you can get away without warriors in t1, so if the enemy is going suppression teams then raveners are very important.

Lictors absolutely need warriors, since Lictors don't have synapse.

The lictor is kind of screwed by the earlier nerf to the suppression claws and the newfound prevalence of detectors. Since you are detected half the time anyway the claw weapons are craptacular. Feeder tendrils does work, but it makes the Lictor into another brawler unit when what you really need is to disrupt or otherwise harass the enemy so your gaunts can go to work.

At least you can flesh hook the detectors. :P

On the plus side the Lictors hormagaunt drop is still pretty awesome..

imo Relic should shift pheromones to a global ability and add free Gaunt reinforce back to it.

[Chris]

What do tyranid players consider overpowered about the current nids balance?

Improved synapse giving 50% HP, although technically this is a bug and not a balance issue.

Other than Tyrant + guants + LOLsynapse I've not found anything that feels remotely "easy" to win with although in all fairness I haven't played the RA yet so can't comment on the balance changes made to him.

[avmcdonough]

I have played nids extensively in this patch and I have to say that there are a few glaring issues that need to be addressed. First and foremost, as many of the posts on this forum and DOW II community say its synapse, specifically Warriors. I think that relic was spot on with the BS improvement but missed the mark with AG. As someone that has played this game since the first Beta, one of the only reasons people used AG so much is that the BS was so awful. Sure, AG was powerful but BS was a message to the opponent "just run around and I will miss you!!" Now AG is cost prohibitive and is too late in the tech tree.

Tyranids are unique since they cannot upgrade squad leaders in their units. They NEEDED warrior synapse (or HT if you use him) to keep up with other races. Especially to give gants the ability to knock down targets and damage output on gaunts. This patch seems to have taken away most of the benefits that warriors gave and none of the drawbacks. There are still reasons that you need warriors but the risks of using them seem to outweigh the benefits, and the skill needed to use them effectively doesn't seem in line with that of other races.

Secondly I think Zoies need to be looked at again. The damage output they do does not seem to fall in line with that of other platforms (IE plasma cannon and D cannon) and is much easier to take out of action (AND cause backlash). His healing is great but maybe instead of the warp field ability give it the invulnerable ability that the HT has to keep it in the fight.

Other then that, fix spore mines (tyranids have the only grenades that can be destroyed before they have a chance) and do something about fexes. Either make them WAY cheaper or improve their pathing/damage output.

[Chris]

One thing I have noticed is that the size change of spore mines from "tiny" to "small" makes A LOT of difference. Pretty much any ranged squad will detonate all the spore mines on approach if they are not suppressed first and even if they are you will probably lose 2 mines.

[MasterBlaster]

while nids may suck
3gaunt spam+hivetyrant when your sm and only have 1 scout hero and 1 tac squad is bloody imba and cant be defeated.

[Buguba]

One thing I have noticed is that the size change of spore mines from "tiny" to "small" makes A LOT of difference. Pretty much any ranged squad will detonate all the spore mines on approach if they are not suppressed first and even if they are you will probably lose 2 mines.

I was pretty confused by this change as well. The whole point of spore mines was to be able to run through ranged fire to counter buildings. Wtf with making it easier to gun them down?

They just needed an AOE and damage reduction, or a timer increase. They didn't need to be easier to kill, just easier to avoid if you weren't in a building.

If you're HT you can get away without warriors in t1, so if the enemy is going suppression teams then raveners are very important.

If you're the HT, then you can get away with never building Warriors at all. Raveners are also pretty effective against SM in general when combined with upgraded Hormagaunts and a charging HT.

I think the most glaring issue is actually the lack of commander synapse and lackluster T2 + T3 units. I always used the Lictor, and so a lot of my points about gaunts and warriors came from that.

The problem in T1 is that Warriors come waaaaaay too late and are far too fragile to help your gaunts in the essential T1 fights. T1.5 is when Nids are most competitive, but that's only with upgraded hormagaunts, commander wargear, and the BS.

After T1.5, things just start going downhill. The Fex is good if you can hard tech (impossible if you want to be competitive in T1.5), but will easily lose to AV or another walker. Zoan is trash. Venom Brood is good, but pricey. Adrenal Glands are overpriced. T3 is good for Lictors (which are pretty awesome), but surviving until then is a toss-up. The Screamer Killer is lackluster as well.

I think actually quite a few of the Nids T1 problems would be fixed if all Nid commanders were given some form of basic synapse. Termagaunts, Warriors, Fexes, Screamer Killers, Adrenal Glands, and Zoans would still need some looking at to solve the T2 and T3 issue, but basic synapse for leaders is a start.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I always get warriors as Hive Tyrant just because I like using the Warrior Vanguard ability. And warrior synapse is still useful... your hive tyrant will get forced off at times, or you may want to split your forces.

I think they should add none-stacking health synapse back to the warriors actually, just so Charge and Invulnerability HTs make more sense.

And the Zoanthrope is not trash. It's quite powerful, and unique among the artillery for being completely safe to fire into melee. The only trouble is keeping it alive. I sure wish you could keep the warp field on when retreating...

Screamer-killer: Don't get the Venom Cannon and he's useful. O_o

[Chris]

while nids may suck
3gaunt spam+hivetyrant when your sm and only have 1 scout hero and 1 tac squad is bloody imba and cant be defeated.

No u.

If you're the HT, then you can get away with never building Warriors at all.

I expect this to change if/when improved synapse gets reduced to 25%.

[Buguba]

And warrior synapse is still useful... your hive tyrant will get forced off at times, or you may want to split your forces.

I wasn't saying that they weren't still useful, just that you can get away with it as HT.

And the Zoanthrope is not trash. It's quite powerful, and unique among the artillery for being completely safe to fire into melee. The only trouble is keeping it alive. I sure wish you could keep the warp field on when retreating...

He's not powerful for 400 req and 40 power. As if his DPS wasn't craptacular enough, he's completely reliant on warp field to save himself from anything larger than a scout. He's incredibly slow, extremely fragile, and his DPS is pretty meager to show for it all. The Zoan IS trash.

Screamer-killer: Don't get the Venom Cannon and he's useful. O_o

Not when you have T3 tanks running all over the place he's not. That's all people build in T3 now-a-days anyway.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

judging artillery by DPS is absurd, especially since the zoanthrope is undodgeable, has no setup, and is completely safe.

none of the other artillery can be used effectively with melee troops; they'll often cause more friendly casualties than enemy.

[Cadian Guard]

Also i dont see why you cant build VC warriors and use them against tier 3 tanks and leave the carnie to basic spam control.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Well that works in 1.4.2

In 1.4.1 tyranids were hopeless against tanks because VC warriors died so fast and nothing else is good enough really...

[Cadian Guard]

good thing we have 1.4.2 then....VC warriors are fine now so, buguba, please dont sound like your AV is nerfed because of 1 over priced fex thats only suited to crowd control....

[MasterBlaster]

meh nids may have problems, but try 3 gauntspam+hivetyrant.

Nothing like only having a scout a tac and hero with no money or energy 60 seconds into game to buy anythng else and having to try to fight that off

[Buguba]

judging artillery by DPS is absurd, especially since the zoanthrope is undodgeable, has no setup, and is completely safe.

Um, what? Since when is it completely safe? Assuming that was true in any way, shape, or form, then ALL artillery is "completely safe" and set-up/tear-down time is irrelevant. Which would make it completely dependent on DPS to determine how good the artillery was.

What you're saying is absurd though. Of course the Zoan isn't safe. It has the lowest range of all artillery units, for one. If anything, it is the easiest artillery piece to reach. Likewise, the Zoan blast has no knockback, meaning that any charging melee won't be phased for a second by the Zoan hitting it. The fact that the shot is undodgable is a nil point. It's extremely difficult to dodge a plasma dev shot, and that's the only "dodgeable" artillery there is.

Likewise, the fact that the Zoan doesn't set-up is a compensating factor, not a beneficial one. It compensates for the fact that the Zoan is slower than dirt and will die at the drop of a pin. Despite set-up time, other artillery units are better off in terms of survivability than the zoan because they retreat away quicker. The Zoan is easily cut down, even while retreating, due to slow speed.

good thing we have 1.4.2 then....VC warriors are fine now so, buguba, please dont sound like your AV is nerfed because of 1 over priced fex thats only suited to crowd control....

I never said that. I only said that the VC fex was terrible for cost. Don't put words into my mouth.

[Hirmetrium]

I believe the Screamer Killer's Barbed strangler does LESS damage than the warrior one. 600/135 and an additional cost on top for AV is not a good deal, by anybodies standards.

[Chris]

VC warriors do not effectively counter T3 vehicles or even T2 vehicles, except maybe in terms of power cost (15 power is dirt cheap). As long as the vehicle keeps moving backwards, damage dealt to it by the VC warriors is minimal. The only type of vehicle VC warriors effectively counter is walkers due to the extremely slow speed.

[Todehy]

thats something thats always been a problem and always needed fixing.
missile launchers should be given a .2 second setup time.

All stand and shoot weapons need it because the engine actually lets them fire when they stop moving for a second(eg another squad os moving past) even thou its only 100th of a second pause they fire.

I was thinking sometign like this the other day and is definitely a nice suggestion.
They are the most useful anti tank unit for a erason.

[Cadian Guard]

"I never said that. I only said that the VC fex was terrible for cost. Don't put words into my mouth."

its not my intention to put words in your mouth, i just jumped to conclusions on what i thought. my bad

[Dux]

I believe the Screamer Killer's Barbed strangler does LESS damage than the warrior one. 600/135 and an additional cost on top for AV is not a good deal, by anybodies standards.

Actually, I found out that it does more damage in a larger AoE, but it fires more slowly, which results in a slightly lower DPS value. It's pretty respectable, however, and it's on a very tough platform that only gets tougher with synapse.

[Hirmetrium]

@Dux: your still paying for a 600/135 tier 3 unit that does the same job as a tier 1 350/55 unit.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

True hirm but at least it spawns spore mines xD

[Hirmetrium]

ok, I'll let that slide. At most however, he should cost 400/100 though, and spore mines unlock when he gets venom cannon. Right now, nid tier 3 is a joke. Sure the lictor is fucking sick, but hes like piece of paper - a paper cut will sting, but it wont kill and you can always shred up the paper.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

If he was that cheap that people would spam screamer killers like they spam tanks now. Wouldn't it be better to increase the other tanks cost instead?

[Hirmetrium]

If he was that cheap that people would spam screamer killers like they spam tanks now. Wouldn't it be better to increase the other tanks cost instead?

I think tanks are pretty well priced, and the AV counters avaiable currently handle the carnifex just fine. Unless OTHER things change (the lack of repair/heal) Carnifexes having a large HP pool is pointless. Not to mention all the additional weaknesses - being tied up, no reverse... etc.

When each one was a mini avatar, I could understand the 600/135 pricetag. Now? its ridiculous. Get rid of it. Then, at least, we can look at the damage in a more reasonable light.