Nids suck [1.4.2]

[BudgetMessiah]

Only way fex wins is if he has synapse, which gives him 20% damage mitigation

This comparison makes me think that the developers are aware that this is probably underpowered, but they are trying to see about how underpowered it really is to establish a baseline. Hopefully, there's not too much to worry about here.

Actually, one sad thought. I haven't really seen much outside the tyrant used much in replays. There's probably some terrible imbalance waiting for release on the ravener alpha, and no one's bothered to use him, so no one's gonna find it.

Or maybe the lictor alpha. Yeah...it's about time we started seeing some new abuse with him.

[OVBlueGhost]

An un-upgraded dread vs a possibly upgraded, possibly synapse, possibly leveled, possibly buffed carnie?? Ambassador, with this scientific rigour you're surely spoiling us!

Trouble, my view is 'nids are horribly broken but we're not seeing the full extent because alot of people haven't made the 1.4.2 jump & thus aren't aware how to win and the HT health synapse wasn't fixed.

The imba of 'Nids and their Ork counter in 1.3 existed fully on the day it went live, but it only became a truly serious problem after a large amount of playing as the strategies filtered down to the masses.

[Cadian Guard]

wait arent the carnies suppose to be a independant organism? why are they gaining a synapasis buff?

[Chris]

I've messed around with the RA and just about all his wargear seems pretty underwhelming, only wargear combo worth getting seems to be devourer/regen armour/damage synapse. His base stats are still exceptional, with massive ranged damage and enough hp/melee dps to not be a complete pushover but as the game progresses I find he just sits in the middle of my blob providing passive buffs.

These are a handful of things that make me feel like I'm butting my head against a brick wall with tyranids;

SM apoth. Purification rites effectively neuters hormagaunts, which is tyranid's only real source of damage in tier 1. Shotgun (x2) + purifcation rights = a whole lot of dead guants and tacs at 100% hp. Throw in some ASM and you have lolerriffic amounts of knockdown.

Orks in general but specifically warboss. Literally unkillable once he gets spiky armour and/or angry bitz. You need to use 2 guant squads to kill 1 slugga squad, so if they travel in pairs or a trio, you aint gonna win. Can't push the ork back until barbed stranglers, by which point Ork is probably tier 2 and planning on a deff dread, or hard tech to tier 3 and looted tanks.

Eldar Warlock. Whichever weapon he upgrades to, he decimates guants by the dozen. Immolate is brutal vs guants. With the merciless wychblade he can take a guant/gant squad down to 50%hp with a single 360 degree AoE attack. Ethereal slash seems to insta-gib guants/gants. WSE also can be a problem on certain maps, main reason is due to hormagaunt melee skill of 40 vs WSE melee skill of 60. The WSE will perform an ungodly amount of 360 degree knockback attacks vs guants, making him also untouchable to them.

Basically anything that acts as a hard HARD counter to melee sticks it to tyranids balls deep, because they have absolutely no viable ranged units.

[hellic]

Dunno about that. I can probably count the number of ravener squads I've built in 1.4.2 on one hand and there is is a direct correlation between building raveners and losing games for me.

Use them for disruption and scouting, not for DPS.

[Chris]

The main problem with using a ravener brood or multiple broods is that it sets back my tier 2 too far and if a razor/wartrukk/falcon pops out I have absolutely nothing that will realistically threaten it.

[WhiteDeVile]

Chris why are you basing a basic melee unit's strenght, by how well it performs against Eldar commanders ?
Especially when talking about their distruption abilities, which are MEANT to make them untouchable by such lowly basic grunts as gaunts.

Ever tried using other basic melee against Warboss perhaps ?
It just shows how it adds nothing to the point.
Especially to the point of balancing gaunts, rather than balancing Heroes abilities.

I expect most of the decent melee capable commanders to dont give a shit about such a cheap unit as gaunts, in 1 on 1 engagement.
Thats the way a commander unit should work, shouldnt it ?

[endikux]

Chris you've hit it on the head. Tyranids have become a melee only army. You can't really think of BS as ranged since you have to get so close to use it.

I like being a melee focused race but its frankly unworkable. The fun of being different loses out to the unfun of being so pathetic.

The real problem comes in unkillability. Tyranids can get into melee if you know what you are doing. That isn't the problem. The problem is that getting into melee and actually killing things are entirely different stories. By the time you manuver into melee you are already hurt, if the enemy is smart they have reserved or part of their army has fallen back to cover their engaged units. They can kill you at ranged but units can escape you before you can finish them off in melee.

If units weren't able to escape out of melee so easily then tyranids would have a real chance. As it is now, with no real ranged options and the deck stacked against melee tyranids are just on the losing end.

[Carl]

Chris why are you basing a basic melee unit's strenght, by how well it performs against Eldar commanders ?

WSE aside i think his main complaint was the ability of a single commaner to decimate a whyole guant squad for very littile recived damage. Whilst i think warboss vs. tac's is a bit insane, it's also an example of a commander doing damage and A) not getting away scot free, and B) not being able to instantly WTFPWN with no chance of retreat. The few uses of etheral slash i've seen in replays, (never used or faced a warlok yet), show it as being hiorrificlly powerful realisticlly. Without knowing it's cost and other attributes i can't say how OP it is, but anything that wipes out an entire squad like that is seriouslly OTT.

[Hirmetrium]

the warlock has always been brutal - players whom don't watch their squads find the immolate>disrupt will instanuke most of their troops.

[LoRd KoRn]

Tyranids actually need some sort of soft counter to vehicles in Tier1, like everyone else

[Cadian Guard]

they do its just too weak to do its job.

[Chris]

Chris why are you basing a basic melee unit's strenght, by how well it performs against Eldar commanders ?
Especially when talking about their distruption abilities, which are MEANT to make them untouchable by such lowly basic grunts as gaunts.

Ever tried using other basic melee against Warboss perhaps ?
It just shows how it adds nothing to the point.
Especially to the point of balancing gaunts, rather than balancing Heroes abilities.

I expect most of the decent melee capable commanders to dont give a shit about such a cheap unit as gaunts, in 1 on 1 engagement.
Thats the way a commander unit should work, shouldnt it ?

When 3 out of my 4 units in tier 1 are hormagaunts, yes it is an issue. The fact is that unless you're playing the hive tyrant, tyranid melee is the least effective out of tyranids/orks/eldar. Only SM fear tyranid melee, although the hero/map has a big influence. Some maps are free-win for tyranids whereas some maps are actually pretty balanced, Techmarine for example is very vulnerable to tyranids because he can be easily tied up and disrupted whereas the apoth can keep your entire army permanently knocked down with the right unit/wargear choice.

I've actually had a few games where I've deliberaetly allowed my SM opponent breathing room EG. avoided generator raids, avoided killing scouts etc. and once the game hits tier 2, it starts to change direction at an alarming rate. Abundance of plasma guns and power weapons turn warrior broods into death-traps (plasma out-ranges stranglers), SM squads become god-like due to hormagaunt exp feeding them up to level 3-4 and nothing the tyranids build can deal enough damage to seriously threaten SM units.

Ofc you will almost never, ever see this happen in an actual game because SM lose in the first 5 mins but if/when changes get made to the early game then issues may become more apparent.

[killchain616]

I couldn't agree more on how bad nids suck. All the ppl that complained like little girls got their wish.Well now Eldar Warlock is the almighty.Don't believe me?lol let them use immolate and watch your nids bake like popcorn.
K nuff of that.
I say if it's gonna cost me an arm and a leg to produce it'd better be on par with everything on its level. it should come down to the skill of the players involved.

[OVBlueGhost]

I still say MechBoy is the best anti-nid commander. Electric armour is just absolutely sick vs gaunts.

[DespotSheep]

LoL... Nids is almost impossible to beat SM in a long stretched out battle.. i tried... tried n tried...

[dedshaw31612]

just wanted to throw in my two quick cents, the ravenors in my opinion are a bit underpowered for their cost. being 400 req, and they die in cc against tacs. im not saying a ravenor squad should single handily take out a tac squad after they burst out of the ground and stun them and still die, but i would like to see a decrease in cost. maybe 30 power, but at least 270-300 req. for what they can do. if not, at least pump up their defenses a little bit, they shouldnt be that fragile for what their worth. i shouldnt have to pay 400 req and 45 power for a disruptive weak squad, thats what rippers are for.

[Saias]

LoL... Nids is almost impossible to beat SM in a long stretched out battle.. i tried... tried n tried...

Nids atm are generally weaker than other races, however they also have the easiest time against tac spammers due to how powerfull barbed stranglers are.

[LoRd KoRn]

barbed strangeler will get nerfed (unless Relic is blind) then Raveners and basic Warriors would seriously need some more dps or it gets ugly

[Troubleshooter]

barbed strangeler will get nerfed (unless Relic is blind) then Raveners and basic Warriors would seriously need some more dps or it gets ugly

I don't know why they would nerf BS now... its got a large AOE, but its not terrible. If BS + anything is underpowered now, make the "anything" stronger slightly and it should be balanced I would think.