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I turned on Vengeance rounds on my SM Heavy Bolter Devastators against a capped power node (with the 125 req paid) and it did no damage (at long range, just inside the range dots).
Since this really isn't a big deal, I just wanted to know if you guys saw this, too. No replays needed. Just say "Yes, I've seen this." or "No, I haven't seen this.".
Z405:I just don't like this; i can understand that there need to be counters, but this is just retarded.
#2
Vengeance Rounds lost its damage bonus vs power nodes and turrets in 1.4.2, so now its practically useless against both.
Remember: you're a blogger. Pretense is your co-pilot.
Why does everything else in the game do damage vs gens, but not HWT? I could see nerfing the damage, but taking it away completely makes no sense. I don't see why it can't so some damage vs. them, because watching HTW's unload on gens and do nothing is pretty awkward to see.
Woops. I have posted this to the wrong forum. This should be in the beta balance and strategy forum.
#5
This is one of the changes that come under
RETARDED.
Hwt 250/30
Vengence rounds
50/10
IT was the one unit tier1 that sm had that could raze power like shees/sluggas/gaunts.
and it required 40 power and setup......
so obviously it needed a nerf
another relic moment classifed under
Retarded
and yes it was such a retarded change it has to be mentioned 3 times
Bloody retarded.
#7
Use flamers masterblaster.
why, why waste upgrading to a flamer and unable to get plasma.
flamers suck after tier1.
shee sluggas and gaunts still tie up ranged just aswell.
The point is that vengence rounds wasnt OP, hell I never even saw a single thread saying they were OP, they ranzed genfarms quick but its a special ability and they dont even scratch them otherwise.
the whole thing doenst make sense
make starting units able to instantly raze genfarms
but make a rather expensive powerrise unit unable too..
#9
It's called not being able to have a unit that kills everything. You either go for the power farms, or you save for plasma and gain anti-heavy infantry firepower.why, why waste upgrading to a flamer and unable to get plasma.
flamers suck after tier1.
I am an Iron Warrior! Iron Within, Iron Without!
#10
Remember, folks... just because you don't like balance changes or suggestions that people make as to possible strategies, doesn't give you the right to go off on pissy rants. If you're going to post, post constructively.
#11
Actually, it makes good sense. In TF2 Pyros are great at taking out Sentry Turrets. Fire is great at destroying internal machinery, circuit boards and the like. It gets in all the cracks, fire does.
But yes, Vengeance Rounds don't do any more damage to Nodes. This was an intentional change, not a bug.
croax it wasnt a pissy rant, it happend to contain a very valid argument.
Removing a startergy from a unit that already sees almost no gametime, when the exact same ability(razing gen farms extremly quicky) is already posessed by 2 of the 4 races from the get go, with the third eldar just needing a banshee squad, with sm needing power upgrades to both defend there own gens and kill enemy gens at a decent rate. Combined with the fact Tacs are already being spamed because they are the do it all and do it well unit in 1.4.2. Its the Devs that need more options of usefulness not Tacs, removing the option from devs was silly. The fact that devs are 1.5 and require an upgrade ontop of that, pluss the fact that upgrade is a timed ability that needs to recherge doesnt exactly make it spamable.
If you actually bothered to understand my post before just deleting it, you would have realised that ohh lo and behold, what I said Devs could do, they couldnt it was tacs, hence the entire reason for the scarcasm to get the point across.
It also required a hell of alot less typing.
I wasnt aware that scarcasm itself was agasint the rules, especialy since it happens to be a rather large compoent of english communication, which many other languages lack entirely.
It was stated even beta began that the devs were looking to eliminate the insta-killing of generator farms by grenades and HWTs, which is quite common in the retail version. To cry foul that vengence rounds do not eat through generators when that was quite obviously never their intention in the first place is more than a little ignorant.
You may not like it, but there's reason behind it. Just don't use HWTs to destroy power. Buy flamers if you want to annihilate generators excessively fast, or if you don't want to take up a weapon slot just use old-fashioned bolter or shotgun fire. As they say, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
DoW II - Saunders
CoH - CommanderNewbie
Yes, that was never their intended reason so it shouldn't have been there in the first place. That's like complaining that nerfing the techmarine's artificer armor's tendancy for near invulnerability next to relay stations is one less reason to field the techmarine hero.
It was simply a fix. If you have issues with devastators that is all well and good, but this is a different matter entirely.
Sigh... it's like talking to a brick wall.
Listen: Devastators don't kill generators, vengence rounds did. They're an upgrade of the devastators, and the purpose of which is to function as a soft counter to vehicles. That they destroyed generators was an unintended effect, and was removed. Do you understand this?
What I said about the techmarine is an analogy to this situation.
My god, is this how you carry a discussion? I'm really not sure how I could more clearly address your issue of reasons to field devastators... does the simple notion that I disagree with you translate in to some sort of alien language to your mind?
And they shouldn't try to re-setup when you order them to fire on a squad in their firing arc.
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Just call me Readin'
Okay, but what does that have to do with the fixing of vengence rounds? They're an additional investment no matter how you cut it, so that likely won't affect peoples' decision on whether or not to buy a devastator squad, if the base cost is too high.
Personally, I find that devastators and shuriken cannons provide a good deal of leverage in T1 that give a player A) a decisive advantage over a player who relies entirely on req-only squads, and/or B) forces the opposing player to invest in upgrades or addional squad types - all of which cost power as well, almost always as much if not more to effectively counter the HWT.
Of course, there will be times where you may lose a HWT with not very much return for it. But that can happen with any of your units... and as they say, nothing gained, nothing ventured.
If your most effective strategy right now doesn't involve HWTs at all, that's fine too. I'd rather them not be a required buy to survive. But I've been having success with them.
Ugh, most frustrating thing in the world. That, and when you manually target a squad and it leaves the arc before you can retarget. I would love it if Relic could work out a solution to avoid those things from happening.And they shouldn't try to re-setup when you order them to fire on a squad in their firing arc.
saunders, the devs intent was to remove instant rasing of gens, they didnt
they gave every race the ability to raze gens like crazy.
then nerf one races tier 1.5 unit which requires an upgrade ability to raze gens.
wouldnt you say thats rather inconsistant.
#20
Flamer tacs and shotgun scouts tear through gens like wet cardboard. QQ moar.
Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs
No. They specificlly said HWT's where not supposed to be gen razers. Weather ter races can use other units to raze gens is irrelevent. Now with this change NOBODY's HWT can raze gens. That IS concistant internally speaking.wouldnt you say thats rather inconsistant.
I don't know what i'm talking about, ignore me.
Thousands of years ago, Egyptians worshipped what would become our ordinary housecat. The cats have never forgotten this.
He's talking about the consistency of all races having a unit not requiring power to be able to raid power effectively.
What if they made banshees require power again to field. Wouldn't that put a shit brick in your happy pudding?
100% agreed. They shouldn't destroy gens in a couple of seconds, but they should destroy them. Why would a bolter destroy a gen, but a heavy bolter do nothing?watching HTW's unload on gens and do nothing is pretty awkward to see.
This is another thing that is absolutely retarded. Why does a flamethrower do more damage to a generator than other weapons in general? It's an industrial power generator, not a wooden shack. I'm not sure if the developers are aware of this, as being a "computer guy" can sometimes force one into periods of isolation from the outside world, but metal doesn't burn (not even a little bit)!! I'm sure there's some fanboy out there frothing at the mouth, ready to cry out, "They're made out of plascrete, not metal!" Well, that doesn't really burn either. The stone elements, combined with relatively small pore spaces, would cause it to smolder, but not freely burn (like contemporary plastics and plascrete...I'm assuming in 10,000 years we'd have better versions of this...not worse). In short, smashing/shooting would cause fracturing and breakage of the material far more rapidly than fire ever could.Use flamers masterblaster.
Anyway, back on topic: it would be nice if weapons did a more appropriate level of damage to generators (and turrets...there's nothing that counters these in T1 effectively). The current damage levels are counterintuitive/rubbish.
I quote:He's talking about the consistency of all races having a unit not requiring power to be able to raid power effectively.
That not talking about one races inability to raze gens without power. That's talking about other races T1.5 units being able to raze gens.then nerf one races tier 1.5 unit which requires an upgrade ability to raze gens.
wouldnt you say thats rather inconsistant.
Far motre importantly what i was point out is:
No one elses HWT can raze gens, so whats inconcistant about SM's not being able to do it?
Knowing the 40K setting it possibbly is, though not probably IMHO.(like contemporary plastics and plascrete...I'm assuming in 10,000 years we'd have better versions of this...not worse).
More importantly this is 40K flamers, they're a lot hotter and nastier than modern ones. Even SM armour isn't proof against long bursts from it, and i'm not talking just the seals giving at the joints, it's actuially capable of melting the armour, even though it's got an ablative ceramic.
I.E where talking a weapon that after 10 or so seconds of shooting at the underside of the shuttle would have put a nice hole in it.
Regardless, it shouldn't even matter whether or not flamers are capable of destroying generators "in the real world." The fact is that Tac bolters (or shotguns, which more people logically purchase) alone do plenty damage to generators, and they don't need to be in melee to do so. So to say that SM don't have a means of razing gen farms without spending power is false, because their normal guns have pretty good DPS against them.
I'm not sure when we started doing balance based upon fluff. That said, the reason that flamers do more damage to gens than sluggas (and particularly, why sluggas have a flamer resistance aura) is because tacs are the chief ranged counter in T1, while scouts shotguns are primarily responsible for close-range fire support. Flamers will, however, absolutely roast ranged squads such as shootas and guardians.
Last edited by Saunders; 11th Jul 09 at 7:56 AM.
2nd that!And they shouldn't try to re-setup when you order them to fire on a squad in their firing arc.
Ever since patch 1.4. Somethings had to change, not everything.I'm not sure when we started doing balance based upon fluff.
Yes, we know Relic intentionally made it so HWT did no damage vs Gens, but is this a good change? I'd say no, it's a terrible change, and they should do comparable damage to any other shooting infantry squad in the game.
The problem before was parking a HWT point blank on a gen farm. They could raze it in seconds, that's OP. So instead of making their damage reasonable against gen farms, they just completely remove it from the game. That's a prime example of poor balancing imo.
#27
I forgot everyone in this thread is a game balancer and all of you work for various development teams balancing games.
Oh, you don't? Wow, really? But you all know you're 100% right and Relic are obviously messing things up, so what gives? This is an intended change. Whining about it isn't going to change anything. If you don't like the change, mod it out of the game and spread your own personal balance mod between your friends and have fun that way.
I'd rather only specific units could deal damage to structures and all other units should deal no damage. Admittedly, bolter fire damaging Nodes is silly, however making flamers and missile launchers and the like is a good move. But hey, at least that's a suggestion. It might not be right, but at least I'm not treating like everything comes out of my mouth is gospel and acting like Relic had better listen to me
Actually gorb.
Everyone in this thread is a game balancer, currently playing a beta of dawn of war 2 1.4.2.
Reason being so they can find problems in the balance the much smaller developer personal base couldnt.
Currently we are all working for free for relic.
Wow, terrible reply. It's a friggin beta, and we're supposed to be giving feedback about balance. Whining won't change anything, LOL where have you been since the first beta?Whining about it isn't going to change anything. If you don't like the change, mod it out of the game and spread your own personal balance mod between your friends and have fun that way.
Whining changes everything about DoW II, and most games. We got a massive gameplay overhaul in 1.4, because people were whining like there was no tomorrow. Same goes for the recent SM changes, and now they got buffed considerably again due to the massive community outcry.
#30
I think it would be fine if suppression teams did a little more damage to power nodes as well, but I also think it's hardly an issue worth getting upset over. Everything will destroy generators/nodes in a reasonable amount of time now, so HB Devs really don't need to. Flamers raze gens faster than any other weapon in the game, by the way, so I'd say SM has the advantage here.
And MasterBlaster, Flamers are not useless after Tier 1. They've been pretty beastly ever since 1.4.
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What if you didn't want to get a flamer, and wanted to use the power toward getting a HWT, or many other options in tier 1? It be nice if HWT were made like any other unit, and treated fairly. Is it a world changing issue, no, but it's a beta and we're giving feedback about everything.Flamers raze gens faster than any other weapon in the game, by the way, so I'd say SM has the advantage here.
I think removing the Vengeance Round damage to power farms and turrets was good in the current balance mindset simply because HBDs were filling too many roles in 1.4.1 (AI, AV, power harass, turret destruction), especially when compared with the other HWTs.
Relic apparently doesn't want HWTs to damage nodes and generators. If that's what they want, is it fair to give HBDs (and only HBDs) with an upgrade the option to break that rule? Consider the other HWTs: neither of them can damage power farms, and while Lootas can upgrade to do AV, they don't maintain their AI capabilities like the HBD can. IMO, HBDs already have a huge advantage over the other two HWTs and we don't need to further expand that divide by letting them destroy turrets and power farms.
I'd much prefer if we either leave it how it is now or give all HWTs their generator/node damage back (it doesn't even have to be as great as 1.3.2, just let them do something). The latter at least would be an indirect buff to Shurikens and Lootas, which really need the help.
@SteelFaith: Your argument makes no sense because it works just as well in reverse. As in, if the tables were turned and flamers did no damage to buildings while HBDs raped them "What if I don't want to use a HBD and want to use the power towards my flamer?" Sorry, that didn't make much sense so let me try another way. What you said is kind of like saying "what if I don't want to use a missile launcher as my AV? What if I would rather use my plasma dev or meltas or dread?" You are taking something that relic has declared SHOULD NOT FILL a certain role and saying that it should. That's a fair opinion, but is somewhat akin to saying that missile launchers should be AoE AI in addition to AV.
Regardless, I feel that HBDs, while extremely hard to use, are not useless and in fact are, well, devastating when used properly to anticipate opponents' movements. Since everybody's tier1 now has some crazy power costs and jump troops as a rule are more expensive than HBDs, I'm not seeing a problem here. The only issue I could see would be if the counters were cheaper and more accessible than HBDs, like scouts with infiltrate or the heros that counter them automatically, but I have yet to have a problem with scouts countering my HBD since I keep detection near them if I can. With the heroes like the WSE you already know the risk when you take the unit, so there you go.
the argument isnt that flamers shouldnt do any damage to buildings, its that either everything should or only specilist units should, currently its in flux.
Half the weapons in game do insane damage
the other half do none to only ok damage.
With the units that do and dont not making much sense.
Vengence was a upgrade to specialy give the HWT hardhitting power agasint hardend targets.
There useless agasint buildings and crap.. .more so
it was an ass of a move because HWT using vengence rounds was the only counter to turrets SM has tier1
ASM do pretty crap damage to a turret and can die rather easy while there trying to destroy it.
So there are weapons which do poor, medium and large amounts of damage? Oh that makes no sense !Half the weapons in game do insane damage
the other half do none to only ok damage.
Knife King of Doltland
I'm not surprised. Anything within three feet of you seems to end up full of knife shaped holes.
As far as I can tell EVERY weapon does pretty good damage to gens. Some just excel at it. A tac squad and a scout squad can take down a gen pretty damn fast if it's undefended. Anybody care to lab it? In either case the only convincing argument I have heard is that it's goofy looking to have a hardcore bolter shooting AP rounds and not doing anything. It's really not a problem. Now HBD being the only counter to turrets is a little bit more convincing...except that turrets are an investment that even with the lengthened tier1 is STILL totally negated once t2 rolls around. Still, the fact that there is no true counter to turrets except to flank them is a bit troubling, but I haven't seen enough of them to comment.
slugga squad rapes turret and can kill it in 5-10 seconds
asm squad does bugger all damage and takes around 30 seconds to kill it.
They nerfed vengence rounds because turrets aint surpose to harm buildings......
Well 2 melee squads one can own gens the other cant.
its inconsistant
@Budget Messiah (post #30): Metal actually does burn. Copper burns green, and iron apparently burns red (from what I know on watching a google video on burning iron). I have absolutely no idea whether or not flamers could raise the temperature of that metal high enough to burn it, but metal certainly does melt (anyone familiar with the concept of welding?).
@Everyone Else: I did not do enough playtesting to realize that everyone's HWTs could not do any damage against gens.
I have another question: Do we still have that bug where you can't destroy your opponent's generators if you destroy the power node and then cap it?
If the answer is yes to this question, then I have the following suggestions:
If so, I have a suggestion: Why don't we change it around so that if you destroy the power node, all of the generators would be destroyed along with it (it would need 400% more health though)? Or, instead of destroying the generators, why don't we keep the health/generator damage values the same so that if you cap a power node while your opponent's generators are there, they automatically become yours (and have a little message that says: Our generators have been seized/stolen/removed from our control)?
Last edited by Zeroblizzard; 11th Jul 09 at 10:19 AM.
@Master: That sounds to me like a problem with ASM, not HBD.
By the way, is it currently true that HWTs do literally NO damage or just an imperceptibly small amount? Because if it is literally none rather than just being ineffective, then that is a little odd and I would want them to change it since it would be the only thing in the game like that. I mean even guardians can penetrate tank armor.
@Zero: That isn't a bug, those are your buildings. And automatically destroying associated generators would be dumb since it is part of the game design that you are able to steal gens.
EDIT: Added @Master for clarity since another post came up.
Last edited by ErichTheGraham; 11th Jul 09 at 10:24 AM.
Do flamers damage turrets?
they rape them.
they were always good vs turrets even in 1.3
Good to know.
My argument makes no sense? Ok let's make this simple as possible. ALL units in the game can damage generators. HWT's did too much damage to gens before. Make it so they can do decent damage against gens, just as termagants, shootaz, guardians, basic tacts, and any other ranged unit can. It doesn't even make sense that they don't do nearly any damage when attacking a gen.@SteelFaith: Your argument makes no sense
So it's part of the game design that you are able to destroy power nodes, cap them, and steal the generators that were built by your opponent?
yah that always baffles me why people attack my gens instead of stealing them. if they think they cant take the nod from me so decide to just cripple me i guess that makes sense, but hey, if you gamble right, you can swipe a node and 3 gens.
Acceptance- Seeing how hopefully shitty you are and moving on.
killing gens is far easier then taking them and holding them.
Take SM with techmarine
any other race can make them retreat in the firstengagement
but you may not win the second as your troops are proberly wounded
so you raze the gens
he comes back you retreat
he is down req of gens and req of lost army.
He didnt just lose 425req he lost the power, and you may even have decaped the point further increasing the time before they actually start getting decent ammount of power.
Its extremly leathal, infact many times, the game is decided right then and right there.
well i referred to it as a gamble for a reason. either you 1. wack his gens and run or 2. you know you hurt him badly in a recent engagement so while he runs and recovers you attempt to swipe the nearest node and steal gens. its all based on the opponents reaction time. when it works i think its rewarding because you save 300 on 3 gens you dont need to build now.
#48
Referring to the OP, I wasn't aware that the Gens had vehicle armour for the Vengeance rounds to have any bonus against anyways...
And personally I steal the gens rather than destroying them.
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#49
There is very little point attempting to steal generators in a 1vs1 because it is highly unlikely that you will be able to hold a position on your opponents doorstep for any prolonged period of time, unless you're a techmarine/mechboy with turrets.
well of course i wouldnt attempt to steal one near the enemies base, but the ones to the sides and middle (leviathan hive) i will give it a shot
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Originally Posted by roflmao