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Problem with TACS and how to fix them

  1. #251
    If the SM player is always insta-retreating the moment they see your troops (as to not lose any Tacs), how do they go on the offensive? How do they capture VPs and Req points? How do they get their own power, raze your power and tech?
    That's the thing, they don't have to. Time is on their side(can almost hear the SM whistle to the Stones song) After that engagement the slugga squad hast cost me 350/20 + maybe 3 reinforce at 25 a piece, so 425/20. That's almost a tac squad. For something that doesn't scale as good and is more difficult to keep alive later. And it gets worse with more engagements. That's not cost-effective for an intended counter....

  2. #252
    Member D-coy's Avatar
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    So you say that SMs can win by building only one type of unit, which is easily countered with minimal losses, and is forced to retreat constantly, and without teching or getting power. That just doesn't seem possible at all. Where are the Deff Dreadz? Or a Trukk? With a Trukk you can lock a Tac spammer in their base while having a reinforcement point at their doorstep.

    This is all said assuming the SM player is not using the Apoth or it isn't a team game, because those are entirely different situations.

    BTW, get your facts right, Burnas only cost 15 power. At least the Codex site states so.


    (Tehzenmaster, about your post below: that's what I'm saying. Too bad that the opposing party seems to ignore that fact.)
    Last edited by D-coy; 17th Jul 09 at 4:33 AM.
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  3. #253
    @Garumsh:
    That's why you kill his gens, preventing him from getting to t2. If I got that done to me by other orks, so I bet you can do it too.

  4. #254
    if each race has a relatively easy plasma, ie anti heavy armour, disruption ability on one of their t1 units and sm has an effective t1 melee counter ability. as long as the abilities cost a small amount of power so you can upgrade one of your units very quickly from the hq income. we would solve the problem. tbh i think that is what relic are now aiming for.

  5. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by D-coy
    If the SM player is always insta-retreating the moment they see your troops...
    No-one said this. My comment was merely that I was finding it hard to cause casualties to SM squads. You can push on their power, and I do push on their power, but the normal sequence of events is:
    • There is an engagement at the approximate centre of the map, where I take some casualties and the SM player takes none.
    • The SM player retreats
    • I move up to their power
    • As I start hitting their power, the SM force returns causing further casualties.


    This is less of a problem in the very first engagements but once there are two or three of tac squads in the mix I am finding it hard to deal with; the increased firepower can normally force one of my squads to retreat in the initial engagement, then another as they engage me when I move towards their power, leaving me on the back foot in the engagement at their power.

    If the certain way to cause damage to an SM force is to hit their power you are also playing in a highly predictable way, and engaging near the enemy's base, on their terms. My issue is that I feel there is no way to actually harm their army in the field.

    Note that I'm not shouting that SM should be nerfed, or Tacs are imba, merely that I am having trouble with this situation and I think that's a valid input on the discussion.

  6. #256
    Member Pocktio's Avatar
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    Same here Fellblade. At such early game stages you have no real gen damaging units and only an idiot wouldn't build his gen farm as close to his base as possible. Basically meaning you lose some guys, move forward at normal rate compared to the retreating Sm units. You engage the gens by the time the SM are already coming back and they always arrive before you can do any real damage. So yeah 'pushing power' doesn't really work.
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  7. #257
    Member D-coy's Avatar
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    You're taking things out of context. I said they retreat instantly, if they don't want to lose very badly. Letting a vanilla Tac squad battle it out with a Slugga squad upgraded with Burnas is close to being suicidal.

    I do get what you're trying to say, it's just that from my experience Tacs are counterable fairly well.

    And obviously, I wasn't talking about very early. I was talking about Sluggas with Burnas against vanilla Tacs in Tier 1 or 1.5, if you consider getting Burnas going to Tier 1.5.

  8. #258
    It's not an ork specific problem at all. Banshees suffer the same fate, although they need no power(and their initial/reinforce cost is even higher). As do gaunts. The problem is clearly one of the tac unit

  9. #259
    Member D-coy's Avatar
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    Who said it was?

    Nids are underpowered, everyone knows, so that is not a valid point. And as I said earlier, I'm not sure about Shees and Sluggas. Rangers can gimp Tacs pretty well if supported (take one down in ~4 hits).

  10. #260
    Beating them in melee doesn't work because they retreat, going for their power doesn't work because they come back, getting map control doesn't work either no? So you're saying SM ALWAYS win no matter what you do?

    It all boils down to "tacs are OP, nerf them" right?

  11. #261
    Member D-coy's Avatar
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    I'll let this go. I made my points and stand by them, I'll let someone else do the speaking.

    I tried to bring up different arguments about the issue, but you don't seem to consider them. It feels like I'm beating a dead horse.
    Last edited by D-coy; 17th Jul 09 at 5:25 AM.

  12. #262
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    Yes, you clearly are.

    I can't explain this any more clearly. It is not possible to balance an RTS without assuming optimal play; without this assumption, skill becomes a variable, and you lose all consistency. Yes, some tactics will be easier to pull off than others, but the alternative is that some tactics will be impossible to counter at any skill level. Don't you see that the former situation is infinitely preferable to the latter? At least players can work at getting better if the game is balanced.
    Sigh.

    And where back to the start if you assume ONLY optimal play it will ONLY be balanced at the top levels.

    If it's only balanced at the top levels the mid levels WILL be IMBA.

    If the mid levels are IMBA then DoWII is not catering to the cashuals, because they suffer through terribble gameplay. To expiriance a balanced game the cashuals are forced to become serious gamer dedicating great time and effort to learning the game. They're no longer part of the target audiance.

    And NO FoF is not the perfect example because it allways had one of two results depending on the patch:

    1. In most patches it was balanced around high levels. he result was that the lower skilll level players suffered through a terribbly underpowerwed eldar race.

    2. In a few patches it was balanced around mid level players. Eldar where competetive at the mid levels at that point, the mid levels just didn't have the raw skill to take advantage of FoF like the high levels could. On the other hand the high level players could abuse it an eldar where horrificlly for obvious efects.

    Ultimetly what you can't seem to understand Dux is that mid level player DO NOT AND WILL NOT EVER have the mental and micro skills to do what a lot of high level have. Thus many high level strategies are impossibble for them to implement or emulate in a manner that will show the same IMBA that high level players are expiriance.

    Your assuming that all mid level cshuals are capable of implementing the same strategies as the high levels.

    THEY CAN'T.

    Therfore many, (allthough not all obviouslly) high level IMBA's just never filter through to the mid levels and have no effect on them.

    I'm not saying, "delibretly IMBA high level play", i'm saying: "if it's a choice between a high level and a mid level IMBA, let the high level be IMBA"

    Ultmetly relic and THQ marketed the game at the cashuals, if those cashuals don't get satisfaction they won't come back and given current economic conditions, relic and THQ won't survive it. It's pure plain bald faced buisness. Please your target audiance or die.

    You do seem not understand what cost efficiency is. Tacs lose to melee units for cost. A single slugga squad wins against a single Tac squad. A single banshee squad wins against a single Tac squad. Cost efficiency has nothing to do with the maybes - that is tactics.

    In, and of themselves, tacs lose to melee. When your opponent stacks them together, however noob and easy that tactic is, it's a valid tactic that transforms their strengths into ability to destroy autoattacking melee on approach. But it does not change the fact that Tacs lose to equivilent cost of melee units.

    A blob of guardians or shootas equivalent of Tacs in cost will ALSO obliterate melee on approach, even more so due to well placed grenades and suppression. The only difference is that Guardians or Shootas don't have their durability or upgrades that give them AV. Thus, nerfing Tac melee will NOT change the critical mass concept. All it will do is screw SM in the ass, while leaving the main problem, the durable wall of ranged damage, intact in team games (the only place where Tac massing is an honest problem).

    SM tier 1 combat units are inefficient in terms of damage and fielded squad numbers (have you seen the stats on scouts? They are, by far, the freaking worst unit in the game without upgrades); that's the trade off they get for whatever advantages they have, such as their low unit squad count and higher for cost HP.

    Let me put it this way: Scouts lose to almost every unit they encounter on the field in tier 1 while capping, unless you get lucky with an inattentive opponent or with garrisoning. Tacs will win only against single enemy ranged squads or some melee heroes. In effect, to win tier 1 engagements SM *have* to blob or rely on an inferior opponent. By weakening Tac melee you remove heroes from that list. Your idea of balance is for SM to lose basically 80% of tier 1 match ups unless they blob, face an idiot, or get lucky with a building?
    I sure as hell know what cost efficiancy is, but ultimetly SM cost efficency is too high ATM. Ultimetly what you keep missing that others have pointed out is that any other ranged blob vs. melee blob would still take quite noticable losses, the SM roll over it like it isn't their for next to no cost.

    I am sorry, but you are either delusional or you simply don't play this game. The game *never* works out this way in actual play. I never saw a tier 1 SM force of Tacs/ShotgunScouts kill equivalent cost melee, even with shotgun blasts, on approach. Never. Their ranged DPS is far too low.
    L2R.

    What i described is what should happen.

    And i said nothing about blasting the melee untis on the way in. In fact i'd expect Scouts to do only 10-15% of their damage as the enmy unit closes. The rest would be done after they've engaged the tac's and are meleeing them. Sure they could try attacking your scouts over your tacs, but thats what knockback is for, and of course if they go after your scouts they're leaving your tacs free to murder his ranged units.

    Remeber i suggested increasing the melee aura from 40% to 60%. Thats a 50% increase in how long tacs last in melee over now, (and they last a while now). You can easilly blast melee units to bits before they inflict significant losses on your tacs that way.

    And no i don't weant to reduce tac DPS to single didgits. EXCEPT vs. mleee.


    End of the day, Carl seems to want an 'I win' button against tacs. Not space marines, JUST tacs. That's all a hard counter really is.
    Got it in one.

    But unfortunately, that would simply rip the spine out of the space marines. All their other units rely on tacs to do all the heavy lifting. Everything else is either too soft (scouts), too inflexible (platforms), too specialized/expensive (ASM), have a very limited window of usefulness (Dreads have their moments. AC vs eldar for example, until haywires and anti everything banshees start becoming commonplace), Razorbacks are....okay? But at the moment don't live up to their cost. All that leaves are tacs and t3 tanks that can stand on their own.
    Your assuming your opponnent would just spam anti-tacs because anti-tacs coutner everything ese.

    If thats the case then theirs going to be major balance issues yes.

    But that isn't what should happen. If your opponnent just spams melee, bring a tac squad for tie up duties and a few shotgun scouts and blast him back to the stoneage, i.e. use the SM's own anti-melee "i win" button. Thats the whole point. If your opponnent wants to have a chance he has to bring a mixed force. couts single tac demolishes pure melee. Pure tac's demolishs ranged, and mixed tacs+scoputs is aout equal to mixed (as an example), GU's+Shee's, (cost for cost).

    There MAY be an issue with scouts +1 tacs ability to be an I Win button vs. melee i admit. But thats a seperate SCOUT issue. Not a tac one.
    I don't know what i'm talking about, ignore me.

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  13. #263
    So you're saying SM ALWAYS win no matter what you do?

    It all boils down to "tacs are OP, nerf them" right?
    No. And hyperbole doesn't aid these discussions. No-one has said that SM always win no matter what you do.

    I am explaining the problems I have with them, and that I have not found a reasonable counter to it. I percieve optimal play as being easier for Space Marines than other sides as you can no longer pin them down in melee and cause them casualties.

    You can get to their generators, and you can attack their generators and do damage, but you are then fighting in their territory, and tend to take casualties when they counter attack. The req damage that I manage to do to their generators is often significantly lower than the req damage that they manage to do to my forces although I have 'won' the fight.

    I'm much more of the opinion that this is currently an issue with ranged / melee balance and the ease of damage mitigation by retreating than that this is an issue with Tacs and they need to be nerfed. I do think that the high resiliance and low unit count of tacs excacerbates this problem.
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  14. #264
    Very Disappointed Dux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl
    And where back to the start if you assume ONLY optimal play it will ONLY be balanced at the top levels.
    Carl, this is plainly false. You keep throwing the word "IMBA" around in reference to play difficulty, but this has nothing to do with balance. If you balance at the top level, then the game is balanced, period. If you try to balance at the "mid-level" -- which is an arbitrary set of conditions (i.e., you can't define exactly what "mid-level" means) -- then you will have an imbalanced game for reasons already mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl
    Ultimetly what you can't seem to understand Dux is that mid level player DO NOT AND WILL NOT EVER have the mental and micro skills to do what a lot of high level have. Thus many high level strategies are impossibble for them to implement or emulate in a manner that will show the same IMBA that high level players are expiriance.
    It doesn't matter. Everyone will try to emulate and copy the imbalanced strategies, and the game will become incredibly boring and frustrating to play. Leaving imbalances in an RTS game to cater to lesser-skilled players will only wind up making the experience worse for all players, including lesser-skilled ones, so Relic wouldn't be catering to its target audience at all by doing so.

    There is no distinction between "high-level imba" and "mid-level imba." There are only two possibilities: balanced and imbalanced. A game that is balanced at the highest level of play will be completely balanced. Some tactics may be harder to pull of than others, but if some players don't want to take the time to learn a difficult strategy, then they can simply choose to use easier ones.

    Finally, Eldar in DoW I was never "underpowered at the mid-level but balanced at the high-level." When it was balanced at the high level, it was balanced at all levels, because that's what balance is. Yes, some mid-level players couldn't pull off efficient FoF use, but no one said they had to play Eldar. Eldar was the skill race in DoW I; it was part of its identity, and some people enjoyed the extra challenge.
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  15. #265
    Set up a platform (for eldar) or some big shoota's behind your melee while you're torching their gens. Fall back in to their cover when the tacs show up. Oops, suppressed. Go chase off the tacs *again* and finish razing the gens. Between the two engagements, (initial forced retreat of the tacs, + second forced retreat of the tacs) you're looking at ..what... 100 req reinforcements? 150? That's 6 sluggaz. You will NOT lose 6 sluggaz against suppressed tacs providing you've committed a similar amount of req to the engagement (if he's got 3 tac squad, you're rocking 3 sluggaz + a couple of shootaz. And he's not decapping your points if he's sitting in his base after every engagement so your income should be significantly higher than his anyway). *edit: Oh, and make sure you kill the actual node first in this kind of example, so it doesn't effectively tie up your ranged team auto attacking it instead of the tacs, while doing next to no damage. /eyeroll.

    Again, attack move melee is not the answer against multiple high damage ranged squads.

    Also, waiting till melee hits your lines increases the chance of casualties (+30% damage vs retreating units). It's melee's that get the get out of jail free card when retreating from ranged (-80% damage against retreating units).

    And Carl, some 'I win's' have been outlined above.

    To reiterate though, in a 1v1 of units it's melee. Melee wins. Always. Seriously.

    In larger fights, unsupported melee lose to massed, unsupported tacs. While unsupported mass tacs lose to supported melee. Supported tacs versus supported melee comes down to who has the better strategy and successfully executes it.

    By 'supported' I mean artillery, significant disruption and/or suppression.

    I mean, just look at that [1.4.2] Eldar vs SM thread where a player who was having trouble dealing with tac spam pulled off a phase shift/banshee rape. That pretty much exemplifies Dux's argument that players get better and perceived imbalances are frequently just a matter of learning the appropriate counters.

    And uhm..

    any other ranged blob vs. melee blob would still take quite noticable losses, the SM roll over it like it isn't their for next to no cost.
    HOW. WHY. Did their retreat button break? Attack moving on to any ranged blob will result in heavy casualties for the melee blob followed by either kiting by the ranged blob or retreat depending on how many melee reach the lines. Hell, I think guardians actually have a higher dps for cost than tacs, so less melee are actually going to reach those lines to get the chance to hit a space elf. and they can fof away from charging melee while their brethren fill them full of ... whatever it is those guns shoot.
    Last edited by swizzle1million; 17th Jul 09 at 2:49 PM.

  16. #266
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    Leaving imbalances in an RTS game to cater to lesser-skilled players will only wind up making the experience worse for all players, including lesser-skilled ones
    Ezxcept that is the target audiance is INCAPABLE of producing play that cuases the game to be IMBA.

    That the long and short of it. many high level IMBA's CANNOT be emulated or copied by mid levels no matter how hard they try. their not good enough.

    Carl, this is plainly false. You keep throwing the word "IMBA" around in reference to play difficulty, but this has nothing to do with balance.
    Actually it does. If a strat is IMBA but tottally impossibble for your player base to implement, (i.e.) it's too difficult to implement, then that IMBA is in fact irrelevent.


    You also can't seem to rap your stupid head round one important fact,.

    What is balanced at high level play is


    NOT

    Allways balanced at the mid levels. It's a simple harsh brutal and tottally undeniable fact, (i even gave you a well known example of it).

    Because high level IMBA normally relies on the players being skilled enough to copy or emulate it.

    Mid and low level player are incapable of copying that startegy and thus it isn not an IMBA at their skill level.

    And the same applies to "balanced" startegies.

    Countering some strategies requires specific ctrategies byu the opponnent that a mid level player does not have the skill to implement or copy or emulate or in any way utalise. As a result he has to suffer through IMBA gameplay because he (or she) is incapable of implementing the counter strategy because they are not skilled enough.

    Any game that wants to not produce IMBA mid level play MUST enshure that all the strategies and counter strategies can be fully implemented at the mid levels.

    This is what i'm trying to say.

    According to you tac spam is ok because high level players can beat it.

    The problem is mid level players aren't skilled enough to copy or emulate high levekl anti-tac blob strats, therefore at their level of play it IS IMBA.

    IMBA is about one thing being disprpotinolly stronger than somthing else.

    Ultimatly at m,id level skill levels, tac spam is a huge balance issue. weather it is at high levels JUST DOSEN'T MATTER, becausee high level play balance isn't what where trying to achive here. Where trying to achive balance for the cashuals here. Cashuals must therfore be able to implement anti-tac blob strats. thats means the strats must require mid level micro and mental skill levels.


    Ultimatly dux i'm supporting my case with arguments showing how bnalance at the top levels does not = balance at the mid levels.

    Your just repeatedly stating that balance at high levels = balance at mid levels WITJOUT refuting any of my arguments.

    HOW. WHY. Did their retreat button break? Attack moving on to any ranged blob will result in heavy casualties for the melee blob followed by either kiting by the ranged blob or retreat depending on how many melee reach the lines. Hell, I think guardians actually have a higher dps for cost than tacs, so less melee are actually going to reach those lines to get the chance to hit a space elf. and they can fof away from charging melee while their brethren fill them full of ... whatever it is those guns shoot.
    Because tacs, even when retreating can take a swing or two to their backs without dropping, other ranged units can't. if they don't rereat the instant the melee starts it's speed enhanced charge, (meaning they get allmost no damage in), they're going to take hits and thus lose members. Retreat tactics only work because tacs are tough enoug to wait far longer before retreating and not pay much if any req for it.

  17. #267
    Ok, let me interject here.

    First, we should keep this thread on the topic of Tacs before it gets closed, I don't see anyone responding to the basic math I did proving that Tacs in fact DO NOT beat melee for cost.

    Second, @ Carl:

    Dux has been nothing but patient and civil explaining to you about why games need to be balanced assuming optimal play. Even if you do not listen or cannot understand, I don't see where you get the basis for calling him stupid when you can't seem to spell, use grammar, or understand that there is no "counter system" of "melee, ranged, and anti-melee."

    Also, are you seriously arguing that a game shouldn't be balanced at the highest level of play? Do you understand the concept of balance?
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  18. #268
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    Dux has been nothing but patient and civil explaining to you about why games need to be balanced assuming optimal play.
    No he's been ignorant and stupid and is (IMHO), dangerously close to trolling.

    One of the key unspoken rules of this board is that whilst people can agree to disagree, if they choose to argue over something. Both sides are required to make an attempt to explain their reasoning behind why they think their opponent is wrong.

    I have done that.

    All dux has done is repeatedly state his position while refusing to refute my arguments against him. By the board definitions that’s coming close to trolling and I have been warned for it in the past as have most members of this board at one time or another we all do it from time to time.

    That’s why I argued for a handful of posts before bringing it up and getting a littlie nasty about it. I accept we all do it.

    But when all I’m getting as an answer is:

    "High level balance means mid level balance" when i can PROVE him wrong on that statement it's not much of a discussion is it.

    It's two people repeatedly stating the same thing, except only one of us is actually making an effort to refute the other side.

    Now a moderator may dis-agree with me, thats fair enough. But the key poijt is that id don't feel dus is in any way adressing my arguments, he's just ignoring them and i'm a bit annoyed at it.

    p.s. I spell checked it this time, I don’t always remember to do it ok.

  19. #269
    I mean, I don't really care if you use spelling or grammar. It just makes you look uneducated and makes it harder for others to take you seriously. That's all I'm saying. It's hard to call someone stupid when you can't spell and think "cashul" is a word.

    I don't think what Dux is saying is that high level balance means immediately that mid levels will be balanced, just because high levels are. He is saying that if you balance a game at mid level (which is impossible to define and therefore do), then it makes it imbalanced for the high level players, as well as probably the extremely casual players. However, if you balance assuming optimal play, then the game is balanced from the top down, which means that all levels can eventually reach balance.

    The key difference here is that balancing assuming optimal play makes sure that the game itself is balanced. It doesn't give a shit about people's skill levels, but rather assumes that people can improve. Balancing on "mid level" play balances the game around the skill of the players, which means that players at this level may now be able to deal with Tac spam, but prevents Tacs from being a viable unit basically everywhere (high, middle, and maybe even casual level gamers).

    In short, balancing at the top is balancing the game itself, leaving players as the variable. Balancing at the "middle" is balancing the game around players, ALWAYS leaving imbalances at the top.

    Dux please add anything to my summary you feel is left out/wrong.

  20. #270
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    I mean, I don't really care if you use spelling or grammar. It just makes you look uneducated and makes it harder for others to take you seriously. That's all I'm saying. It's hard to call someone stupid when you can't spell and think "cashul" is a word.
    I'm dyslexic actually which is most of the spelling issue, so i really should spell check for the reasons you state. I just guess with what i intend to be short quick posts i let it slide, but lately i've been doing it with the long ones as well.

    I don't think what Dux is saying is that high level balance means immediately that mid levels will be balanced, just because high levels are. He is saying that if you balance a game at mid level (which is impossible to define and therefore do), then it makes it imbalanced for the high level players, as well as probably the extremely casual players. However, if you balance assuming optimal play, then the game is balanced from the top down, which means that all levels can eventually reach balance.

    The key difference here is that balancing assuming optimal play makes sure that the game itself is balanced. It doesn't give a shit about people's skill levels, but rather assumes that people can improve. Balancing on "mid level" play balances the game around the skill of the players, which means that players at this level may now be able to deal with Tac spam, but prevents Tacs from being a viable unit basically everywhere (high, middle, and maybe even casual level gamers).

    In short, balancing at the top is balancing the game itself, leaving players as the variable. Balancing at the "middle" is balancing the game around players, ALWAYS leaving imbalances at the top.

    Dux please add anything to my summary you feel is left out/wrong.
    Now thats a much better argument, and exposes a key flaw in my own argument. Cheers .

    I'm not saying balance mid level at the total expense of high level and low level play.

    Rathjer your argument says:

    Use high level play as a starting point and work down from their, (if that initially produces mid and low level IMBA thats ok, in the short term)..

    While i'm saying:

    start at the middle and work out in both directions, (if that initially produces high and low level IMBA thats ok, in the short term).

    The main reason for this is simply that i don't belive any game can, (unless it last an incrediblly long time like chess and co), be made balanced at all levels of lay befoe support for it is pulled. Even starcraft is generally only considered fully balanced a the highest levels AFAIK. If after more than 10 years they can't get perfect balance at all levels, what chance does a game lasting a few years have?

    I agree defining what counts as mid level is extremly hard. Ultimetly it boils down to the devs picking an imaginary point out of mid air that lies rougly in line with the average skill level of the majority of the player base. It's certianly more tricky than defining the highest level of skill so i'll admit that it is a weakpoint in my argument.

    But overall i see that as preferable to a game that starts at the top and never has time to get the middile right because the games lifetime is over by the time they start in on that. It also means the target audiance of the cashuals has to suffer through a lot of time of IMA gameplay before the balancing gets down to them after balancing everything above them.

    The only other, (minor), issue i can find in your argument really is this idea that players can improve. At the competetive level that is true. Cashuals can improve on paper, but the hole point about a cashual is that the vast majority are well, cashuals, they aren't intrested in spending ages improving on their playing ability. They just want to be able to jump straigh in with a basic knowlage of the game and play an equally matched game at their skill level.

    it';s lke the diffrance between somone who gambles for 100's of pounds at a casino, and a bunch of old ladies and littile kids playing queeinie for tupance's, (2p's). One is a serious gambler who's going to put effort into improving. The othe is a cashual who just ants a fair contest of wits because excersising those mental muscles is fun, win or lose.

  21. #271
    Very Disappointed Dux's Avatar
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    That was a fine summary, jcorqian. Thanks for the support.

    @Carl:
    The fundamental disagreement we seem to be running into here is on the definition of balance. My definition of balance goes like this:

    "If every unit in every race is used to its full potential, then every race will have an equal opportunity to win every game."

    The abstract ideal would be that every game where both players exercise optimum play would result in a stalemate; hence, "balance." Of course, no human being is actually capable of 100% mistake-free play, so stalemates never last in any practical example.

    Frankly, I don't understand your definition of balance. Could you explain exactly what your criteria are?

  22. #272
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    Frankly, I don't understand your definition of balance. Could you explain exactly what your criteria are?
    That any two players of equal skill, (no matter what level that skill is, optimal or otherwise), can play a game and get a stalemate, (equal skill assumes exactly equal skill, exactly the same number of mistakes, exactly the same ability to exploit mistakes e.t.c.).

    No of course the catch is no two players are exactly equal in skill so you get one side winning, but in a balanced game 2 players of as near equal skill as is possibble to get should be able to fight out a battle at any skill level and get a ganme where neithier actually feels like their opponennt has outplayed them at the end of it. Their opponnent just had the luck of the draw on the day.

  23. #273
    Because tacs, even when retreating can take a swing or two to their backs without dropping, other ranged units can't. if they don't rereat the instant the melee starts it's speed enhanced charge, (meaning they get allmost no damage in), they're going to take hits and thus lose members. Retreat tactics only work because tacs are tough enoug to wait far longer before retreating and not pay much if any req for it.
    You're forgetting that there will be twice as many squads of ranged in any other set up. They don't have to wait for the melee to start their charge. If you're ranged blob is setup so that the melee's have to telegraph which unit they're attacking, you can simply move that unit before it gets in range for the charge. If you have equal numbers of units and micro the hell out of those melee, you might manage to tie up everybody, but that's already way more effort dedicated to the melee response than the ranged.

    And as to durability, I thought you didn't want fragile tacs.

  24. #274
    Ok, after playing against Sms for the BILLIONTH time, I feel the need to make some points. If these issues are not adressed in the next patch, I'm afraid I will suffer from a cerebral hemorage.

    * 1.4 was about making use of a mix of different units to overcome the enemy, with a big focus on tier 1. What's happeneing now is completely the opposite.

    * The eldar make use of Banshees, Guardians, and platfroms. Orks tend to go sluggas, shootas, stormboyz, or stikks, and nids seem to use any units they can spare, except warriors, mostly used with their range upgrades.
    When battling space marines, I either fight Apoths, or Techmarines surronded by HUGE blobs of Tac marines, I rarely see more than 1 scout squad or an ASM unit.

    * In tier 1, Tacs take NO dmg at all from ranged fire cause of their heavy armor, and if faced by melee fighters like sluggas, all they have to do is run towards their base (without using fall back if an Apoth is nearby), and shoot the puruers in the ass when they cant pursue no more.

    * As an ork player I find the only useful unit against Tacs = stormboyz. Shootas basically seem like a diversion or scout/hero killers if you focus their fire, which they sometimes fail to understand and head for melee.

    * Tac and TM plasma guns are ridicoulus, they shoot my stormboys down before they even manage to land.

    SUGGESTION

    + Give the tac marines a heavy armor upgrade at tier 2!!! and make them perhaps a little more durable in CQC.

    + lower the dmg of the plasma guns, and make them perhaps stronger vs armor.

    ork request
    + Give Sluggas back their NOB in tier 1

  25. #275
    Member WhiteDeVile's Avatar
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    Ooh no, no more nobs in T1 please, think of the Eldar vs Ork MU, duh...
    plus none of the core units should have leader upgrades in T1, for the sake of early game balance.

    As for the rest of the proposals, a HP increase coming with sargeant would be better than armour changes through upgrades.

    So, lower HP for tacs in T1, and back to the same value with Sargeant upgrade in T2.

    But rather than that, Id reconsider their durability as a whole, against both melee and ranged.

    Their damage output is high, too high, cause otherwise they wouldnt score any kills against melee units charging them.
    They would be useless against melee as say, GUs were against stikkbommaz back in 1.3.

    Tacs' ranged fire resistance can stay, if their dps gets lowered a bit, but then, they ought to receive less damage from melee squads.
    Its all connected.
    They were meant to deal decently with melee squads, but after all they're using the same weapon against ranged, thus, they are too effective in overall.
    In order to balance them out, they should've been made less effective against ranged units, have same durability as now, but receive less damage from melee attackers.
    Thats how I see it anyway.

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  26. #276
    One of the main problems with space marines IMO is that the basic bolter is so darn good. In T1 it is not a necessity to upgrade to a flamer. This is not the case for any other race. Orks NEED their flamers/big shootas for the buff. Eldar NEED grenades/Banshee aspect to be viable. Nids NEED the AG for the speed and damage buff. SM should NEED to upgrade at least some of their tacs to flamers to be viable.

    Forcing Tacs to need this upgrade to do the damage they currently do would also reduce plasma and ML spam later in the game. This would also require that the SM spend some power in T1 like everyone else. Thoughts?

  27. #277
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    @ avmcdonough

    ... and SM needs Scout Shotguns which costs more than a Burna.

    If Tacs were more vurnable to ranged units they couldn't stand and shoot at incoming melee, they'd have to rely too much on retreating and the gimped ASMs.

  28. #278
    Its obnoxious as a SM and tyranid player I find it nearly impossible to stop.. As SM I usually try to have a balanced force, and usually go 2 ASM, one tact and a scout unit through the majority of the game with Apothecary (power axe, apoth armor for less cool down, and rites).. Tactical marines upgrades need to be made MORE expensive imo.. Plasma also needs to be made to T3.. This would prevent the early tact spamming of T2 due to the fact that plasma is the main weapon that is spammed with an occasional Missle launcher.. Another possibility is to hardcap WEAPON upgrades, not tacticals.. Meaning you can only have one of each through out the game.. This would create a more varying environment, while still keeping tacticals up to par.. That you can use them spam wise of 3 or more squads but only have 3 special weapons total.. This would still make them a force to be reckoned with but create a much easier timet o counter.

  29. #279
    Member D-coy's Avatar
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    The Apoth needs a nerf imo instead of all those changes.

    And I highly doubt that without a change in the game engine, you could put a hardcap on heavy weapons. It wasn't possible in DoW 1, so I don't think they put it in DoW 2.

  30. #280
    McDonough, Orks don't need their flamer, they can get by just fine in t1 without them. And forcing that tac squad, to buy a weapon upgrade best described as a liability to mollify a perceived unfairness towards SLUGGAZ for pity's sake... bad example man. Maybe give the flamer tacs squadmates melee weapons + bolt pistol so that they can actually stand on their own against melee when they're inevitabaly tied in it? I'd say power swords/axes to make them more attractive in mirrors. Hammers would be funny. Big swing knockback then cook them on the ground? Heh. The only downside to that would be the further marginalization of ASM's, but at their current price point, who cares? I only build them now if my opponent is *obsessed* with platforms, that way they're only likely to cost me the tech race, as opposed to guaranteed to.

    D-coy, that should really read 'To diversify their army, SM need scout shotguns to make up for the decreased viability of low tac count vs melee mobs.' And since the scouts can't be separated from the tacs, you're still blobbing, it's just that your blob is made up of a kind of 2:1 mix of shitty unreliable high micro melee counters with a high power price tag:tacs.

    Phobos, if you can afford 2 ASM, you probably should have just hard tech'd to tier 3 and got a tank. Especially if you bought upgrades for them. 50/30 for meltas? 100/25 for sergeants? I laud your efforts to diversify your army, but paying 1300/210 and 40(FORTY!) pop cap for a pair of units with such a narrow list of targets doesn't appeal to me.

    Which is sad really, since ASM were frankly why I got in to SM in the first place. Dudes rocketing through the air on a pillar of flame, crashing in to their enemies and attacking them with chainsaws? It's basically made of liquid awesome.

    ...too bad they're pansies at the moment... Slapped around by the significantly less expensive units that fill the same role. ASM vs stormboyz will frequently end with stormboyz down 2 squad members, ASM wiped out. Don't know how they fare against Raveners now, but it didn't end well in 1.4.1.

    Hard capped weapon upgrades? GG, that's a lovely bunch of looted tanks you've got there, Mr. Ork. Please tie my single possible squad of anti-tank in melee, or just chain boom shot it and collect your +1 ranked win. Thank you, have a nice day.

    That solution would only be viable against nids, since their armour such as it is can be countered by dreadnoughts. Might be doable if you could afford to field melta's + dreadnaughts. And if melta's worked like haywires. And didn't have such a long cooldown. And you weren't paying 1050/120 and 30 pop cap (discounting sergeant) to counter a 350/100 15 pop unit.

    *Edit: oops, flubbed the math on the Dreads +ASM/melta. That should read 1050/170. Forgot to add the base power cost of the ASM. Original calculation left in to show it as even worse than I originally thought.

    re-edit: typo fix.
    Last edited by swizzle1million; 18th Jul 09 at 10:27 AM.

  31. Dawn of War Senior Member  #281
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    Page six seems a good place to drop in and say Tacs are fine now, no need to fix them. Same goes for all of SM tier 1... sure there are things that could be tweaked back and forth to make things better and flow nicer... but if nothing changed, I'll be just as happy.

    Apoth passive healing needs a bit of a nerf... otherwise SM heroes are more or less balanced now.

    Really, if this much effort went into fixing Nids, we'd be a lot closer to a balanced game that we could ride out until the next expansion.
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  32. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #282
    Senior Member Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    I'm with Troubleshooter on this one. Tacticals are fine. Get over it and start using some real counters rather than attack moving.
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  33. #283
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    Stop attack moving only SM are entitled to do that viably :P

    Seriously, my concern is Eldar and I think counter SM boils down again to 3 GUs with nades /sigh

    I enjoy that most SM players dont mind stuff such as ASM being yam but are satisfied with Tac spamming.

    I play 3v3 and I find myself hiding my units behind Tacs so yeah I agree that new tactics can always be found

  34. #284
    I don't know if I'd call SM heroes balanced... Apothecary's rock solid ....Tech marine can be pretty decent.... but I have precious little use for the force commander. The only times he really works for me is in that narrow wedge between 'there are enough platforms on the field to be a problem, but too much detection to use an infiltrated scout nade to deal with it' and 'there are enough platforms on the field to warrant the purchase of ASM'.

    A lot of the FC's war gear fills similar roles to the Apo's, but is more situation, less energy efficient and with no way to reclaim that energy save waiting. And his survivability as a front line fighter is about equal if not less when you factor in heals/rites.

    Oh, and Eldritch;
    Stop attack moving only ranged blobs are entitled to do that viably :P
    Fixed that for you. Wouldn't it be more cost effective and reliable to get shee's + plats? Counting on grenade hits when those things are on a 1 minute cool down and the fact that if the nade misses the tacs will likely butcher the guardians seems less attractive than counting on even admittedly flakey suppression with a shee follow up.

  35. #285
    Stop attack moving only ranged blobs are entitled to do that viably :P
    Yeah, that's why there's a six page thread about how to balance shoota/guardian blobs, right?

    I get the feeling that SM players were traumatized by 1.4.1 and are maybe a little overprotective of their tacs.

  36. #286
    No, there aren't, but would you want to get anywhere near 8 squads of guardians? Would you run melee at them? That's about what 4 squads of tacs amount to in req.

  37. #287
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    But noone ever fields 8 squads of guardians. You lose guardians too fast to build up that many. You need other units to keep guardians from asploding.
    Remember: you're a blogger. Pretense is your co-pilot.

  38. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #288
    Senior Member Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    No, there aren't, but would you want to get anywhere near 8 squads of guardians? Would you run melee at them? That's about what 4 squads of tacs amount to in req.
    Believe it or not, that won my last game as eldar for me. Its very amusing, with that much gear/warlock buffs. Mass ranged is very deadly, and you'll find many units drop dead very quickly under focused ranged fire, which doesn't suffer from the melee pathing issues.

    Don't believe me? Troubleshooter has the replay.

  39. #289
    OK, 2000/300 does not equal 8. It's 6 2/3.

    But noone ever fields 8 squads of guardians. You lose guardians too fast to build up that many. You need other units to keep guardians from asploding.
    Not only this, but even if 8 guardian squads were to magically appear at once in a game, I am confident that I could kill them. There are plenty of counters that simply rip them a new one. Here's some counters I've used in the past (just with orks and not counting vehicles): tankbusta barrage, KNob grenades/shotty, big shootas. The shotty and barrage in particular inflict gruesome damage. Cramming so many low HP figures into so little space makes guardian spamming a high risk/high reward type situation. I'm cool with that.

    Because of tac durability, it's more like a low risk/high reward type situation. Most other ranged units are fairly squishy, and it's tac durability that makes them exceptional, especially with an apoth.

    (Just want to clarify that my experience is with 3v3s nearly exlusively)

  40. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #290
    Senior Member Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    pffft Arbit, guardians have plenty of nasties right back. FOF will avoid most things, with Warlock global while its on CD, emboden will trash big shootas right back and grenades are still one of the most deadly abilities in the game when used well.

    While tacticals are durable, they are expensive. Every loss inflicted costs a fortune, and they are limited to 5 squads max, no other units.

    @ Acanthor: yes, guardians suck against tacs. Thats why you use D-cannons in the back.

  41. #291
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    Mass ranged is very deadly, and you'll find many units drop dead very quickly under focused ranged fire, which doesn't suffer from the melee pathing issues.
    That is of course unless the units you are targeting are SM and then they are pratically immune to ranged Guardian fire. I don't care what some people have said GU damage to Tacs is laughable. Of course this makes some crazy sense since Banshees are supposed to be a hard counter to heavy armour, unfortunately what usually happens is the Tacs concentrate their fire on the Shees who get mowed down and now any GU squads are useless and might as well scamper away.

    Sure GU are cheaper then a tac squad but GU have to, and I mean HAVE TO get a tier 1 upgrade to be at all effective (15 power each) and even then Tacs are a better choice for sustainable ranged DPS, in a shooting war tacs ability to survive more damage while still maintaining the same DPS (due to smaller squad size) wins the day in most engagements. Add in instant anti-everything in teir 2 and you have SM armies made exclusively from tacs and who can blame them. Why would you want to use combinded arms or any other units when tacs are soo good?

    Yeah, that's why there's a six page thread about how to balance shoota/guardian blobs, right?
    This sums up the situation nicely. Looks as though the response from the community says that there are problems with tacs and the need to be fixed.

  42. #292
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    @ Acanthor: yes, guardians suck against tacs. Thats why you use D-cannons in the back.
    You pretty much have to is the problem.

    It is possible to counter tac spam in t2+ without using dcannons... just very difficult. mostly it involves spectacular use of commander wargear, like the timefield or warlock+psychic shield+distort field (which is ridiculous and probably imba).

    Banshees don't work in the long term. If you manage to get to melee the tacs will run and you'll kill maybe one or two out of 12, probably not covering even your own losses. But you're just as likely to get gunned down on the way in, losing most of your squad for absolutely nothing in return. That's if you are lucky, unlucky your squad is dead.

    I have pursued a melee strategy lategame successfully, but the banshees are incidental to the uber-warlocks or seer council or what have you...which is problematic.

  43. #293
    OK, 2000/300 does not equal 8. It's 6 2/3.
    You're right, for some reason I had it stuck in my head that they cost 270. Not sure where I got that.

    And yeah, guardian damage on tacs is laughable. Never said the attack move guardians would win out against tacs. Tacs are flat out the best at ranged. I was still drawing on Carl's assertions that attack move melee should destroy tac blobs. And battle equipment doesn't affect those GU's dps, so in that scenario (melee blob vs ranged blob), no you don't need it to be effective.

    And Shoe, you're saying that having to field a viable counter to a unit is a problem. That's like the tac blob saying, 'I don't want to upgrade any of my guys to missile launchers to deal with that falcon, but my bolters don't do enough damage.' If you read most of the eldar centric comments about the tac blob without all the pessimism it basically goes: 'Tac's are vulnerable in t1, have a strong t2, and are vulnerable again in t3 so long as you don't try to lean on the same stuff that whupped them in t1 (they've upgraded since then).'

    If he's tac spamming you KNOW he's tac spamming pretty much from t1. And in t2, if you look out in to the field and say 'Hey look, 4 tac squads with sergeants.' That's 80% of his pop cap. He has room for *1* unit to add flexibility to his forces. And by flexibility, I mean something other than walking slowly towards you firing anti tank and anti inf. Keep whatever that is from fucking over your tac counters (not your t1 tac counters, your late game tac counters) and you win.

    Saying you need a commander to mix in with your troops to counter the tac blob is totally irrelevant, since 90% of the complaints about the tac blob are about them reaching their full potential with their commander. It's not like he's ever far away from them.

    And all this leaves aside the fact that tyranids against tac spam are straight up boned against tacs late game, but that's more a nid problem than a tac one.

    Oh, and:

    Yeah, that's why there's a six page thread about how to balance shoota/guardian blobs, right?
    I know I already responded to that, but if you look back at the posts, half of it's SM players arguing with each other about how SM should play.

  44. #294
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    Banshees are still the Eldar tac counter in t2. Wraithlords and Falcons obviously don't work and WSE die horribly to plasma. Eldar are very hard off in t2 against a tac heavy SM. They are pretty much just holding the line until t3 in an even game. Commander abilities help a lot tho.

    The hell of it is that tac blob backed up with a HBD is still much better against melee than a tac blob, but a lot of SM commanders don't seem to find it worth the effort compared to just mashing Retreat.

    P.s. I think Dcannons are stupid powerful. I use em but eh.

  45. #295
    Well, yeah, that's kind of what I meant that when I said tac's had a strong t2. Their serious counters haven't hit the field yet. Through tier 1 tacs are doing little more than holding the line till they can push back in t2 a lot of the time.
    The hell of it is that tac blob backed up with a HBD is still much better against melee than a tac blob, but a lot of SM commanders don't seem to find it worth the effort compared to just mashing Retreat.
    No argument. Especially seeing as getting all your points decapped while you slog your ass back from base is more likely to cost you the game than actually having to reinforce a couple of guys. And considering the awesomeness that is drop pods....

    I guess it's a perceived ease of use thing. I dunno.

  46. #296
    Member D-coy's Avatar
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    Oh God Drop Pods... how to use these on the field, I'd like to know. I know what they do, but they take 8 seconds after initializing to spawn reinforcements and by that time my guys are dead. Wasting it on 3 members is bad, and if I want to get more out of my money, the squads that supposed to get reinforced get slaughtered. Seriously, why do I have to anticipate what will happen in those 8 seconds, while my dudes are being massacred?

    I know practice makes perfect, but still, frustration ensues nowadays.

    @ TDS

    You're right D-Cannons are the counter... until your opponent is not smart enough to not let you flank them. Do D-cannons deal friendly fire? If not, that's neat.

  47. #297
    Member eldritchweather's Avatar
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    Eldar are supposed to outsmart/outmicro their SM opponents. Their units are not forgiving at all and I m fine with that. Eldar also have really nasty hero wargear abilities that can do wonders to cc enemies like phase armor warp throw anti grav nade and aoe invisibility from rangers, GU nades, Shee shout etc etc. An Eldar player will have to manage these (1-2 of these if used correctly will make SM blob retreat in t1 t2)

    On the other hand Eldar squad can disappear in secs. Especially if a pimped Shee squad dies its a huge drawback and for me usually means gg. Warp spiders sucking against SM means a huge hole in my T2 roster tbh.

    SM will have to build Tacs and retreat them. Their problem is when to build AV. Apothecary is quite scary and TM if he gets a turret the right minute is a pain.

    On a 3v3 scale 3 Eldar v 3 SM is quite hopeless since a mistake will probably be made especially in a 2SM v 1 Eldar situation.

    Overall I think as Eldar when the tactics are mastered v blobs there wont be that much of a problem. Likewise in 1.2 and 1.3 facing a nid player in 3v3 would mean you mass AI early game and kick nid abuser ass (since very good nid player would not get matched against me and I would mostly get opponents I could handle)

    I believe a small toning down of Tacs or buff to Tac counters would discourage blobing while cost reduce of other SM units would make other strategies viable. Thats a win win situation

  48. #298
    Ah, using the drop pod mid-fight can be a huge turn around if the timing is *just* right, but using it between fights to pick up reinforcements in the field for cheap (repeat: CHEAP) or even back at base after a retreat that left your forces ragged can win you the war instead of the battle. 100 req and 200 zeal for what can easily amount to several hundred in reinforcements if you've been losing guys in fights.... it's like a buy 1 get 5 free sale on tacs. Meanwhile, your opponent's actually *paying* for his reinforcements. Sucker.

    Yes, D-cannons deal friendly fire, but that's not much of an issue since that ranged blob probably isn't trying to tie you in melee anyway. Similarly, flanking by a ranged blob isn't much of an issue if you maintain a banshee picket with some rangers holofielding. If they try to charge through, just shout, move the shee's, and singularity them for maximum lulz. All fairly map dependant of course, but what isn't?

  49. #299
    Member stranger's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's why there's a six page thread about how to balance shoota/guardian blobs, right?
    I can start a thread about how ranger blobs omgwtfpwn marines if you realy like.

    The tacs as it is are fine. It's the blobs that are a problem, and the focus should be on that instead of trying to ruin the marine t1 yet again.

    Like so:
    Hey, I figured out a nifty way of diminishing ranged blob efficiency. How about give ranged units an aura that reduces their accuracy for more than two squads of the same kind in close vincinity, representing the units having trouble shooting over each others shoulders. What do you think about this?

    See? Wasn't so hard.

  50. #300
    Well tac marines are the new tyranids, just inflict casualties early on receive none in return because your troops are nearly invincible. Slowly build your blob then just attack move in late tier 2.

    Tacs need to go up to a 4 man squad with the same hp to make inflicting casualties a real possibility. It's either that or a straight hp nerf. They are also far too resistant to melee in general and break the system, by being a good counter to everything in tier 1. Can anyone honestly say they want the spam tactical marines attack move from DoW1?

    This patch is supposed to be getting away from the spam one unit and win gameplay. But from I've seen Space marines have just replaced tyranids of old. And eldar got a little better.

    Mostly been playing orks and tyranids.

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