Scout Snipers

[MasterBlaster]

Scout snipers are currently, well they got nerfs.

Setup time and teardown of 1.5 seconds
They can no longer be used to kill dcannons or plasma devs
Infiltration no longer comes with the sniperrifle.
an extra 50/15 that has to be spent
Sniperrifles now only do 60% damage to heavy armor.

Now fun facts about rangers
Cost less
Out dps them
outrange them
Have group cloaking ability
have a special knockback ability
Have more hitpoints unless the snipersquad buys a sargent for another 75/25 cost
Are tier 1

[Buguba]

Don't forget that, even if they were good, snipers are a complete liability seeing as shotgun scouts are pretty much essential for protecting Tacs from melee.

[Soultaker]

There is no reason to build snipers.

[Kill Master]

Now why do they even exist anymore if they are completely useless now? O_O

[D-coy]

They cost a ton, you have to skip a shotgun squad and wait for tier 2 to get them, and it takes a while to down one tac with them. Why bother?

[MasterBlaster]

thats the point
there pretty much worthless currently.

They were SLIGHTLY to powerful 1.3 now there useless due to messing with them way to much.
100/20 seems like a much more reasonable upgrade, since slteath puts it back up to 150/35
problem is its currently
210 for the scouts
150/35 for the rifle
50/15 for stealth
410/50
Add a sarge and its almost the same as a tac squad in req and 75 energy
and they cant even kill a normal tac squad unupgraded without sarge before they die.

and thats with them shooting at maxium range in cover while the marines advance.
and 410/50 for the ability to kill one slugga every 8 seconds is nothing compared to the shotgun even now.

[Soultaker]

Now why do they even exist anymore if they are completely useless now? O_O

There's snipers because they are cool units. They are also unfortunately very hard to balance. The current version of them is not appeasing enough to forgo other options marines have like building tacs or shotguns. I'd love some more variety when it comes to SM.

[Buguba]

Even if they were buffed to Ranger levels, or recieved a significant cost decrease, I still wouldn't buy sniper scouts. Their anti-melee ability with shotguns is absolutely essential.

Sniper scouts would need some kind of suppressive ability to slow down melee units to make it worthwhile. There's no sense in getting sniper scouts, even if they were powerful, if you're just going to be steamrolled by a horde of Banshees or Sluggas.

[Enosh]

Even if they were buffed to Ranger levels, or recieved a significant cost decrease, I still wouldn't buy sniper scouts. Their anti-melee ability with shotguns is absolutely essential.

this
equping your scouts with snipers is extreamly stupid, since you need those shotguns to deal with melee
the sniper upgrade is atm only in the game for shit and giggles

[konfeta]

Even if they were buffed to Ranger levels, or recieved a significant cost decrease, I still wouldn't buy sniper scouts. Their anti-melee ability with shotguns is absolutely essential.

Idea. Give Scout Snipers the Techmarine's MCB High Powered Shot (High Damage + 5 seconds of Suppression for 60 energy).

Retains their sniperness and gives them anti-melee utility.

[OVBlueGhost]

I don't like this, they already counter mele with shotguns, so why give them a T2 ability which... counters mele? You'd only get them if you lost a scout squad in T2 and they were still mele heavy.

How about giving it extra utility vs commanders + heavy armour? Then if they don't build any mele (say you're in a mirror match) you'd have something nice to get in T2 that made your starting squad more useful.

[konfeta]

Because High Powered Shot is also great against things like Warp Spiders (no damage for 5 seconds and knock out a squad memember).

Mekboy teleports in front of you with Deffgun? Suppress him and send something to melee him.

[MasterBlaster]

actually, if they did long range suspression, they wouldnt be a counter to melee, .

Instead they would be a anti ranged unit forcing enemy units to take cover, but by themselves if there damage stays as it is they aint that dangerous.
Long range ability to suspress a tac missile squad shooting at your vehicle, or a heavy weapon team.

It could actually make a tacblob lose vs Tacs+a couple of snipers
Yet all sniper squad would be overrun by tacs.

[konfeta]

Shotguns are supposedly the counter to melee. Snipers aren't gotten because:
A. they suck for cost
B. the opportunity cost of not having shotguns is fatal.

HPS allows to somewhat alleviate B., solves A., and makes them very useful against against high damage ranged units/heroes.

[redscare]

If at least they did decent damage to HA, they could at least be used in mirrors.

[w(oO)t]

Idea. Give Scout Snipers the Techmarine's MCB High Powered Shot (High Damage + 5 seconds of Suppression for 60 energy).

How about snipers cost 100/20 and can be upgraded with "Expose Weakness"... training that allows snipers to aim for the weak parts of their targets.

Effect; SNIPER SHOT IGNORES ARMOUR TYPE

[Dux]

Scout Snipers still have the advantage of being dirt cheap to reinforce after upgrading. It can be a pretty good investment, especially against Eldar. Of course, most SM players think that they ABSOLUTELY NEED SHOTGUNS at this point in the game, so no one's going to try it for a little while.

[Buguba]

Of course, most SM players think that they ABSOLUTELY NEED SHOTGUNS at this point in the game, so no one's going to try it for a little while.

Well, you do. Suppression teams aren't nearly as versitile as scout shotguns, and Tacs can't hit any kind of critical mass until later in the game. Shotguns are fairly cheap, mobile, pretty good at holding back charging melee units, and you can still use the scouts to run around and cap (which suppression teams can't do as well).

If you're talking about the TM's high powered shot, that won't save you from melee hordes. You'll suppress one squad, and then the next one will just keep on coming and engage you. At 30 power too, you might as well just get a suppression team. At least that will suppress everyone.

[FooF]

Possible idea:

Scouts start with Shotguns, can upgrade to Snipers in T2, if they wish. Increase Scout cost to 270. Increase Infiltrate cost to 50/25.

Unless you build more scouts in T2, they're not worth much in T1 without Shotties and/or Sgts+Infiltrate. That said, no one is going to save their scouts for Snipers in T2.

If Snipers were an upgrade from Shotties, it's a different ballgame altogether.

[Buguba]

Scouts start with Shotguns, can upgrade to Snipers in T2, if they wish. Increase Scout cost to 270. Increase Infiltrate cost to 50/25.

See, that's what I had wanted to always do. It's retarded that SM MUST have power to counter a pure req melee unit. Against an equal player, SM will always lose the first engagement. SM can only be competitive against melee builds once they've accumulated some power.

Personally though, I think it's dumb that ALL ranged units work this way in T1. Shootas can't stop melee until they get the big shoota upgrade. Termagants can't halt melee until they get toxin sacs. Guardians can't kite melee until they get battle equipment. ALL ranged is gimped until T1.5

We only see it most with SM because they have no melee units in T1.

With regards to your suggestion though, FooF, I would probably put Scouts at 300 req and make infiltration exclusive to the sniper upgrade. Then you could just buff the sniper to Ranger levels and add some kind of suppression ability.

[FooF]

Infiltration with Shotties should still be viable. That's half the fun.

Nor do I think Scout Snipers should have any special ability. Their sniper role is secondary compared to that of Rangers who are purely snipers.

[LoRd KoRn]

Relic didn't think through that counter system properly. Sure, you counter melee with shotguns but you ALWAYS need to do that...which kills the purpose of snipers and normal bolters

[Buguba]

Infiltration with Shotties should still be viable. That's half the fun.

Meh. It's kind of counter-intuitive to the current balance system, IMO. The fact that shotgun damage was reduced doesn't change the fact that infiltrating shotgun scouts can still counter ranged combos (with the exception of SM and Orks). Shotgun scouts are meant to be anti-melee, and they should be just that.

Nor do I think Scout Snipers should have any special ability. Their sniper role is secondary compared to that of Rangers who are purely snipers.

Scout Snipers would need to have a special ability if they wanted to counter melee though. The problem right now is that snipers already interfere with what Tacs do, and Tacs do it x10 better.

After all, you build snipers to bolster your ranged damage. Unless you're trying to achieve overwhelming ranged superiority, there's no sense in building snipers when you're opening yourself up to being meleed.

Snipers should counter melee just as shotguns do (to maintain Scout's role as anti-melee units), but should do it in a different way than shotguns. Giving them an ability would make them perfect for that.

[MasterBlaster]

foof thats not true, rangers are nolonger just snipers, they have better health then scouts, they cost less then scout snipers, and they can do knockback like scout shotguns.

The best bits of every scout ability tied up into a single unit thats got longer range, more damage, faster firerate, and cheaper......

[w(oO)t]

All this talk of snipers countering melee is ridiculous... you want to counter melee you get fucking shotguns.

Snipers were the 1.3 counter to tac spam and any other ranged spam. They should still be like

[Kendallv2000]

foof thats not true, rangers are nolonger just snipers, they have better health then scouts, they cost less then scout snipers, and they can do knockback like scout shotguns.

Yes your right rangers aren't just snipers there just snipers who can occasionally push back 1 or 2 members of a squad with the aoe ability.

Rangers are meant for harassing units and blustering ranged forces. Yes they can stop a few of the charging melee units in exchange for a normal shot which could probably kill one of the members of the melee squad.

[BudgetMessiah]

actually, if they did long range suspression, they wouldnt be a counter to melee

It could be. Suppress the melee units and increase the time the rest of your ranged army is dumping on them if they are advancing. If they are jump troops, suppress them to protect a bolter or other priority target after they jump to allow that target to get away.

If they are ranged units, suppress those.

[zer0ex]

i think they should boost damage to scout snipers. make it a dedicated "one shot one kill" type of unit; no fancy smancy skills or anything. just straight up killing. to counter, maybe give it a longer cooldown, but make it so that you can kill a tac(?) or really damage it in one shot. maybe make infiltration tie in with it, rather than having you research infiltration. i mean seriously, i don't get it how shotguns can be all sneaky and stuff. take away the infiltration research, and make it go with the sniper upgrade. that should make it fair i think. so no more spammage of shotties, snipers become more viable, etc etc.

[konfeta]

Er... 1 shotting Tacs?

That's basically killing most heroes in 3-4 shots.

[Pellucid]

Better they be worthless than the semi-ridiculous state they were in before. Something between the two would be nice, though.

[MasterBlaster]

the setup time by itself would have fixed them, the problem was they could kite everything, now they cant kite units trying to kill them, but they dont do enough damage either and are to expensive with stealth.

[ChaoticNecron]

I generally use snipers in with my other forces, softening up targets as the reach my tac's or using them along side with plasma/normal devastator squads can prove quite useful. Then again I am a mostly ranged player, defensive in nature. So who knows.