[1.4.2] Sluggas are not cost effective

[Garumsh-Zott]

Nobody denies that sluggas were too strong in 1.4.1 but they were overnerfed imho. They got no less than 3 nerfs to them either directly(DPS nerf) or indirectly(nob->T2 and nerf to global abilities through nerfed zeal income). That's just too much. They now require a power investment to even be on equal footing with banshees and gaunts or to be effective against heavy inf. Without upgrades they are now just an overpriced capping squad. Some possible solutions to this are:

1. Revert the base DPS nerf. Leave everything else in place
2. Nerf the slugga nob(don't know how much) and make him T1 again. Everything else stays the same.
3. Leave stats alone but Sluggas get a cost reduction to 270. Then we have retail (capping)sluggas again but they scale a little better than before 1.4.

What do you think?

[Dux]

Is this a joke?

Sluggas are still too good IMO. The Slugga Nob still has bugged damage and a vanilla Slugga squad puts out more damage than a vanilla Shee squad for 100 less req, and that's not taking Waaaagh into account, which makes Slugga OMFGawesome(tm).

[Garumsh-Zott]

Are you certain about this Dux? I'm pretty sure banshees beat sluggas(both vanilla) as do gaunts.

[Dux]

Without upgrades, it's a bit of a toss up. Sluggas out-damage Shees, but the Shees have slightly more HP, and that HP is spread over fewer models, so it takes longer for them to lose any DPS. It usually comes down to special attacks: If the Shees do a couple, they will win; if they don't, the Sluggas will. Usually, the Shees will win, but they should: They cost 100 more req.

Still, Sluggas put out more raw DPS than Shees. 24 DPS per Slugga x6 Sluggas = 144 DPS; 25.38 DPS per Shee x5 Shees = 126.9 DPS.

Once Sluggas get Nob Leaders in Tier 2, nothing else stands any chance. The Slugga Nob puts out 77 DPS by himself, which is more than an entire Ravener squad and about as much as an entire ASM squad.

[Chris]

Sluggas are the most cost effective melee unit in the game.

[MasterBlaster]

At first I thought it was a joke
I laughed
Then I read the orginal post
I cried

seeing a wave of sluggas tier1 makes me feel fear, seeing lots of shootas trying to kill my tacs makes me happy... sluggas are fine, I never see them and think... yay easymode, I think crap ork sluggas.

[Garumsh-Zott]

The thing is atm sluggas will spend most of their time running back to base to replenish losses. They will always lose members when fighting pretty much everything and are therefore a huge requisition sink. You almost can't use them as a melee unit before the burna upgrade beause of that. Orks melee in 1.4 relies on a quick victory over squads before you lose too much members. A prolonged fight will always result in unacceptable losses for the low hp ork T1 infantry. Since there is so little risk in kiting melee squads now(or in case of sm don't bother just let them melee the tacs they will win) sluggas will bleed you req income dry through reinforcements alone. Oh and I would rather have the nob brought down in damage and made T1 than the situation we have currently. Who actually builds sluggas in T2+? They will die in droves to anything there nob or not.

edit:@masterBlaster
Yeah well since shootas do pretty much no damage at all against tacs, this isn't much of a competion no? Sluggas will still lose hard against tacs burnas or not. Get a few shots in to damage them on their way in than trash them in melee. I'm always so happy i built the supposed counter to tacs :P

[Pocktio]

Ork infantry have low HP? Requisition sink? 'So little risk' in kiting melee squads'?

Seriously, all of these things are just false.

Edit: Very little damages Tacs but shootas are definately one of them especially with sluggas tying them up.

Are you mixing up shees with sluggas? Shees I can understand some of your points on.

[Garumsh-Zott]

ehm then which unit apart from gaunts and gants has lower HP per model? Name one...

[Aerozap]

I think Sluggas, Banshees, and Hormagaunts all suffer from having to run back to base to reinforce after nearly every fight - it's not exclusive to Orks.

About moving the Nob Leader back to T1 - this also moves the Recklessness ability back to T1, which is a bad idea IMO. It doesn't seem fair that parallel abilities that break suppression such as GU Embolden and Tacs ATSKNF are in T2 with their respective Warlock and Sergeant upgrades. Considering that the power cost for the Nob Leader is less than getting a Shuriken or HBD, it would make HWTs even more useless to get versus Orks. Putting Recklessness in T1 would also make Sluggas even more cost effective versus Banshees (since upgraded Banshees only really have the advantage of War Shout which is completely negated by Recklessness).

[Chris]

I fail to see your point.

Scouts have 140hp but only 3 models per squad. Pretty fragile. Guardians have 100hp per model, 5 per squad. Just as fragile as sluggas, 1 less squad member to boot.

If you think sluggas are useless before burnas then this is a L2P issue. Almost everything you post is the complete opposite of reality.

>Tacs trash sluggas in melee

DOH HO HO HO HO HO. See that ability called "WAAAAGH"? Try pressing that.

[Garumsh-Zott]

If you think sluggas are useless before burnas then this is a L2P issue. Almost everything you post is the complete opposite of reality.

Having a nice day Chris?

I'm just saying that they feel more useless than they ever did in 1.3. Can't excactly pinpoint why though...

>Tacs trash sluggas in melee

DOH HO HO HO HO HO. See that ability called "WAAAAGH"? Try pressing that.

You mean my dedicated melee unit has to rely on a zeal ability(which is not always available after the income nerf) to beat a ranged unit? Right... Even then it's not so clear who would win(can't lab it atm) my guess is its entirely possible for tacs to win even then.

[Frigidair44]

I'm an experienced Ork player. Sluggas only get their asses handed to them if you send them out without support.

Two slugga squads without some sort of back up will be beat. Thats why you play Orks in the numbers game. Lots of squads running around... so TACs won't kite, Shees won't think to force themselves into fighting even with their screams, and Hormagaunts will have a reason to turn tail and run.

[stranger]

You mean my dedicated melee unit has to rely on a zeal ability(which is not always available after the income nerf) to beat a ranged unit? Right... Even then it's not so clear who would win(can't lab it atm) my guess is its entirely possible for tacs to win even then.

Wait, you mean you're expecting a 300 req melee cappers to massacre twice as much worth in req of range-oriented generalists with little to no losses? Yeah...

[Garumsh-Zott]

teh same reason why an upgraded shoota squad costing 425req 45 power with 2 upgrades can't reliably trash a req only unit like tacs for cost. We have a hard counter system here and tacs are supposed to be countered by melee. Oh and 2x 300 =/= 500

[Carl]

teh same reason why an upgraded shoota squad costing 425req 45 power with 2 upgrades can't reliably trash a req only unit like tacs for cost. We have a hard counter system here and tacs are supposed to be countered by melee. Oh and 2x 300 =/= 500

Bingo.

HARD COUNTERS people.

Whilst i don't agree that 2 tac's should be destroyed by one slugga, one slugga vs. one tac, no upgrades should destroy it for minimal losses, ecven if destroying it takes a while to do. Ultimetly the issue is more a Tac one than a Slugga one though IMHO.

[General_II]

This argument is flawed at its foundation: orks are not UP.

Your most recent argument is flawed because it fails to look at the counter system. The weapon type that shootas use is not effective against tact armor (though damn near everything else is).

As far as sluggas go, they don't have any melee problems in between commander support, waaagh, and the basic stats they have to begin with. I'm afraid this is a L2P issue, unless you can show us some replays that highlight this apparently glaring issue that high-level ork players have yet to notice.

[Steel*Faith]

You mean my dedicated melee unit has to rely on a zeal ability(which is not always available after the income nerf) to beat a ranged unit? Right... Even then it's not so clear who would win(can't lab it atm) my guess is its entirely possible for tacs to win even then.

Tacts aren't just a ranged unit. They're PRIMARILY ranged, and also proficient in melee. Seems like we're at a point where one side of the community wants strictly hard counter system, and everything is rock<paper<scissors. Well not everything in DoW II works like that. In DoW II you might need scissors & paper to take down rock.

I absolutely disagree that one Slugga Squad should beat a Tact squad. not only does this feel wrong Fluff wise, but it feels wrong gameplay wise. I don't want this hard counter system some of you are rooting for, I liked that some units had soft counters to a variety of units.

You mean my dedicated melee unit has to rely on a zeal ability(which is not always available after the income nerf)

Yes, that's how orks function, they rely heavily on how well you use WAAAGH! abilities. They don't and shouldn't function like the other races. Orks require getting AoE buff abilities for their Horde and overwhelming their opponent. That's how REAL orks fight. This whole nonsense about a slugga squad soloing a Tact squad is ridiculous, and it's not 40k. The main problem with Orks was their WAAAGH! generation rate was slowed down, and I don't think that was necessary, considering how much they rely on their special abilities to be effective.

For nearly the same price as one tact squad, you can get two ork squads. Two ork squads working together, especially hopped up on WAAAGH!, can take down tact squad. Sluggaz even have a melee upgrade that excels at killing tacts, burnaz. In tier 1 sluggaz absolutely dominate if used right, but most ork players need to stop relying soley on sluggaz, and start considering other options to fight SM's, like Stormboyz now.

I think this comes down to a combination of things, it is a L2P issue, but it's also a balance issue. The main problem when using orks vs SM is fighting apothecary players. The apothecary is a huge obstacle for Ork and Nid players. I don't know about Eldar, because I don't play them. Tacts are a great unit, but when paired with an Apothecary, orks have a tremendously tough time taking them down. When i'm using orks, I don't have problems fighting the FC or TM, it's the Apoth, and he turns a 500 req unit, into something god-like once he gets the right upgrades.

[Chris]

Tacs should not be destroyed in melee because they cost 5 fucking hundred req. You can't invest that much resource into 1 unit and then have it hard-countered by 300 req melee units. The whole point of Tac marines is that they are supposed to be able to take on most units 2:1. If they can't even win 1:1 (while spending almost 50% more to boot) then you have a very broken and very redundant unit.

[Cadian Guard]

well since guardsmen had the same odd tac killing talent in DoW 1 it doesnt really surprise me that the cheap unit wins out for...whatever reason.

also in regards to the OP, i already posted something like this in the strategy area and this arguement didnt really pan out so well either.

Also yes a shee squad can 1 vs 1 a unup'ed slugga squad. tested it out myself after my sluggas were tossed around by some dispersion attack the shees used while in melee. it worked and my sluggas were beat quite badly with 2 still living while the shees suffered no losses but lost alot of health

[Garumsh-Zott]

Actually you might be on to something Steel*Faith. I have been using a lot less globals since 1.4.2(because I couldn't afford it). I never saved Waaagh! and used it quite regularly. Maybe the percieved drop in effectivness is directly tied to the Waaagh nerf and slugga stats are ok in general? Have to play more....

[Carl]

Tacs should not be destroyed in melee because they cost 5 fucking hundred req.

It's called combined arms chris. learn to use it.

EDIT: There's also the fact that Tac's absolutly butcher every other ranged unit in game for cost.

[Chris]

Combined arms just means more resources. Resources you don't have because you just spent 500 req on a single unit.

[Carl]

Combined arms just means more resources. Resources you don't have because you just spent 500 req on a single unit.

Combined arms dosen't apply with a single unit.

It's about using several diffrent unit types in conjunction.

I don't know if you've noticed but the ork vs. Sm replay only had 2 scouts and 2 tacs out at a time. Ultimetly if your expecting to put 3+ tac squads on the feild before the very end of a 1v1 your being delushinol. Thats the whole point in fact. You buy 1, maybe if your feeling like taking a risk, (i.e. risking that your enemy won't go melee heavy), you build a 2nd, more likliy you'll be nearly at T2 by the time you build your second tac if your being cuatious.

Ultimetly your correct, but only in the sense of "2 tacs well before T2, and 4 before T3". If you limit the number of tacs you build and build support units over extra tacs mainly you'll do combined arms without issue. The whole problem AT is that ASM are still a bit so-so, and that everything else in the way of support is somwhat flawed.

2 scouts +1Tac is the same req out the gate as 2 shees plus GU, (i'm including the starting squads here).

It's like i said in another thread, all Tac's need to be able to do in melee is tie the enemy up, and the other units, (mainly shotties i admit), will do the real damage, thats how they justify their cost for weaknss to melee, they can act as force multipliers for your shotties by giving the enemy melee somthing far more important to attack, (unless having your vehicles and ranged infantry evaporate under tac fire is unimportant to you).

[konfeta]

It's like i said in another thread, all Tac's need to be able to do in melee is tie the enemy up, and the other units, (mainly shotties i admit), will do the real damage, thats how they justify their cost for weaknss to melee,

A Space Marine player will have, at most, 2 Scouts, 1 Tac, and a hero out on the field for the first few minutes of game. Maybe 2 Tacs/1 Scout if they don't spend a penny on power and wargear. If all Tacs did was "hold enemy off" then SM units would never even leave the blob through-out tier 1 - things like Sluggas and Banhsees kill off Tacs very fast.

[Carl]

things like Sluggas and Banhsees kill off Tacs very fast.

And ultimetly THAT is the issue with Tacs in melee ATM, it's a lot better than it was though, they don't evaporate on contact anymore.

As Long as Tacs are tough enough to hold long enough for the shotties to blast the enemy your home free (until the enemy brings in an anti-shottie counter).

[craft-star]

Well I think this beta is a funny one. I whine about sluggaz and stormboys being OP, ork players whine about tacs being OP. What I'm sure is that if no micro is involved and no upgrades and its a 1v1 sluggaz vs shees/tacs/gaunts, mostly sluggaz win sometimes shees. Of course if we are speaking about 2 squads, mostly tacs will win because of they're superior ranged. Now if we take into consideration the heroes the whole battle is messed up because there are countless possibilities. For example if you are fighting against a TM + 2 tacs (like myself) your best bet is to kill the TM while your boss ties up (wb) , distracts/stuns(mekboy,kommando) them then u waaagh into the remaining tacs.

[Steel*Faith]

Garumsh-Zott you should also consider taking advantage of more ork abilities. Do you use "Call Da Boyz" and all the great global abilities that orks have? Many of these abilities can give ork players a serious advantage.

If you can position your forces in the right way, and then use "Call Da boyz" you can turn you're hard into a nearly unstoppable killing machine for a brief time. Most of the time when you use Call Da Boyz the enemy will retreat, which could be just enough time for you're melee to do some great killin in you're already in the thick of things.

If you can balance, and improve how well you use you're WAAAGH! that can really make or break your battles, especially vs tacts.

Tacts are a tough nut to crack, but orks have some great weapons to take them down. The Kommando in tier 1, with his Assashuns knife can be horrendous to tacts if used right. Tacts greatest weakness is their costs, and he can wrack up the death tole on tacts quite nicely.

[Garumsh-Zott]

Call da boyz is way too costly now. I sometimes used to use it on nob sqads where it is the most effective. But now there seems to be never enough waaagh for anything but basic things like 'hide da boyz', 'hard boyz', or 'Use yer choppas' and even then only 1 sometimes 2 times per match. The rest usually goes away through waaghing and using unit abilities like rocket barrage or stikk throws

edit: btw I know how to play orks Steel*Faith

[WhiteDeVile]

Actually, the zeal cost is low enough to use most of the basic abilities almolst regularily, both the unit ones, and the globals, unless you are saving zeal for something bigger.

[Cadian Guard]

however i do view it as a waste to use Call Da Boyz for sluggas....sluggas....rather use it when i have nobz. I do use Use Ur Choppas and Ard Boyz alot.

[WhiteDeVile]

Depends on wether you have your commander and at least 2 sluggas around, or are you focusing on a single slugga unit doing the job somewhere out there.

In the first situation it is rewarding to spend that extra zeal on call da boyz, otherwise I prefer to frequently use 'ard boyz and use yer choppaz on single slugga/shoota squads to make sure that they will win their engagements.

Also zeal costs are low enough to use most of the abilities almost regularily, maybe not as frequent as using Warlock's globals, but frequent enough, considering the fact that you also pay for waagh abilities of your units.

Thats a fair deal.
Also this thread is pretty much pointless.
Sluggas are a great melee unit for their cost, in fact if they werent nerfed in 1.4.2 I'd call for price increase, but luckily they got properly nerfed, not too much.

What is more worrying, is that hormagaunts seem to be too resistant to most basic ranged units,
and even their melee counters or at least more expensive melee units, seem to have more trouble with them, than against sluggas.

And this is just all plain wrong, sluggas should be the ones more durable, gaunts cost the same, but have more hp, and more squad members, while sluggas deal more damage.
Shouldnt it be the other way around ?

Since gaunts are meant to be effective en masse, so they should deal a bit more damage, but be less durable, typical cannon fodder.

While sluggas are meant to rely on other units and waagh abilities, their damage should be lower a bit, but their durability should be higher than gaunts, since they can up their dmg using abilities.

[Hirmetrium]

More than anything else, the ork waaagh nerf (which is what makes their basic units so deadly and effective) REALLY hurts. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with any ork units, but I cannot get enough waaagh resource to buff my army effectively to competitive stage, while keeping up with other really powerful enemy globals. Ork really need waagh because its used for so many unit skills. Having it generate is like basic unit energy regeneration. Without that, orks are really boned.

[WhiteDeVile]

Indeed mate.
But I just dont feel that lack of waagh, some people are speaking about.

Just played a ork vs ork mirror, and of course in order to win I had to heavily rely on waagh globals, and waagh powered unit abilities.
(BTW that goddamn Warboss is almost un-killable )
And there were only a few times when I lacked waagh for something, I could use zeal stuff almost as much as I do when playing as Warlock (and mind that I rely HEAVILY on globals while using him).

What Im trying to say is, that earlier, you've almost never ran out of waagh for basic stuff, up to a point that everything, waagh, aiming wotz dat, basic globals, stikkbomma nadez, all could be used after each cooldown, no brakes and boundaries.
As long as you fought you'd never ran out of Waagh before the beta.
And it was especially frustrating when I was playing as Eldar against Orks, they were unstoppable early to mid game, and thus I was forced to fast tech each time.

So hearing now that some people actually LACK waagh for something, is like music to me ears ;p

[Carl]

More than anything else, the ork waaagh nerf (which is what makes their basic units so deadly and effective) REALLY hurts. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with any ork units, but I cannot get enough waaagh resource to buff my army effectively to competitive stage, while keeping up with other really powerful enemy globals. Ork really need waagh because its used for so many unit skills. Having it generate is like basic unit energy regeneration. Without that, orks are really boned.

Amen, I may feel Tac's are a bit strong, but any general issues with orks boil down to the fact that they cn't use their much needed unit abilities AND Globals at the same time, or at least not to the degree everyone else can.

[Garumsh-Zott]

The overabundance of waaagh in 1.4.1 was directly tied to the fact that everything died so fast to melee. As a consequence the waaagh did skyrocket, which let you kill stuff even faster. As it is now income through kills(the reasoning for the income nerf)has been drastically reduced.(unless you lose a lot of orks in battle - then you have Waaagh but no army/req)


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