Turrets ... Overpowered in the new Beta?

[DeathMaker900]

I have been noticing a problem when fighting the Techmarine and the Mek Boy and the problem is thus: Turrets seem to good. Heres the general thought behind this. When the Tier 2 Upgrade was only 45 Power you could easily get rockets and tank or the sort to destroy turrets. Now that Tier 2 costs 125 power I'm seeing this arise as a strategy: the turret builders rush all of the power points and build 1-3 turrets at each one making sure that the turrets cover each others backs. With this new found power node they continue to steam roll over power points and fortify them in the same manor. In no time at all 90% of the power on the map is guarded with Turrets that you cannot take down without better troops: the troops that require the power you do not have. As soon as they fortify 75% of the map (usually happens within a short few minutes) you have already lost. Thoughts?

[stranger]

Um, fortifying a power point like that costs about as much as your t2 upgrade, so if the player seriously keeps doing that, in theory you should have a walker by the time he's halfway through it... There is no way in hell he can lock down 75% of the map within a few minutes even if he's running around with just the starting scout squad. Also flamers and burnas melt turrets quite nicely.

[ErichTheGraham]

3 turrets is 90 power. That's a huge power investment. If you get one flamer you can destroy any number of turrets as long as you can flank them. It's also 600 req so you should outsquad him if you fight anywhere else. Just take the territory behind them and flame them or use whatever building counters you have available. What race do you play and do you have any replays? As it is I find it hard to believe turrets are OP but if you can show me I might change my mind.

EDIT: Dang someone got to it first.

[DeathMaker900]

ok.... flamers and burners ... what are eldar and nids to do? oh and ill save a replay if i see it again.

[Chris]

You really don't need 1-3 turrets per power node, 1 will suffice if placed correctly and yeah I do think it is a crock of shit on a lot of maps. No power income = no tier 2 = no counter to turrets.

[GrimDark]

Well, take 3 techmarines, take some power, avoid enemy capping squads, go near their base, annoy them a bit with your cheapest troops.
Build a turret or two blocking the exit, your pals should do the same.
Force some enemy squads to pull back, overwhelm the rest or also force them to retreat -> cap whole map -> tech -> win.

Only warp spider thanks to mass teleport and Ravener tunnels can almost ignore this "strategy". It's also very map dependent, but there are several very abusable ones out there.

[WhiteDeVile]

Yep, seen that shit Grimdark is talking about, but slightly different, one player was apoth, built tacs first, and did all the "chaos" necessary for his friends to turret the place.

[endikux]

The only units that effectively kill a turret in tier one are assault marines. So ya, what do the other three races do? Most the maps allow turrent placement where you can't even get behind it at all. It doesn't matter how expensive in power a turret is if you can use one to effectively hold an enemy's power before they reach tier tier 2 to free it up. By then you've already made up for the power lose and reached tier 2 yourself.

Turrets are totally bs and it's obvious to anyone who see's how often people switch to tech marine on the new circle map.

[Frigidair44]

Or you can torch them with flamers. That is race dependent. I'm calling for a hard cap on the number of turrets you can build... or at least a higher power cost.

[J Kap]

Turrets are lame enough as is but when you can place them in a corner up against a wall it's down right gay for lack of a better word.

[craft-star]

As a turret spammer myself I suggest paying attention and raping either the TM or the turret being built before even he built it. Or if its flankable flank it

[Bombstarter]

As a turret spammer myself I suggest paying attention and raping either the TM or the turret being built before even he built it. Or if its flankable flank it

True, but it is hard to do this when there is an apothecary and his two tac squads guarding the techmarine and his tacs, all of which are being healed by the apoth's healing aura.

[Psycho-Warrior]

The problem with turret balancing is that they don't function the same in all game modes. None of the 3v3 problems, for example, apply in 1v1. And nobody in their right mind would build three turrets and thus waste 90 power, as already said. This whole "turret spam" tactic, so to speak, relies on multiple heroes being able to build turrets.

Personally I find the turrets perfectly fine as I only play 1v1 and 2v2 and I've never been matched up against three Techmarines (which I figure to be quite rare as well). Countering them is incredibly easy as long as you do any of the following - circle around them and attack from the sides/behind, send jump troops to smash them from behind, or alternatively use long range weapons or tech to vehicles. To put it bluntly as a protip: don't walk in front of them. You have plenty of options to deal with them as long as you have half a brain.

The only balance change I could see implemented is hardcapping them to 3 or something, but that would hardly change anything. Their costs etc. should stay the same or the Mekboy and Techmarine would be severely gimped in regard to 1v1/2v2.

There's definitely no problem countering turrets, so a higher cost would make them unviable on most occasions (except when playing on poorly designed maps - wink wink, fix the maps for bad turret locations, don't nerf the turrets themselves). Besides, why the hell would you let enemy cap and turret all the power nodes in the first place? More so than being OP, I think people are rather just unable to adjust to the situation. Acting first and taking out the weak enemy heroes before they manage to get any turrets up should get rid of all your problems, as well as keeping an eye on your own power nodes. Or you could simply walk over to the enemy's power node and return the favor, forcing them to react.

[edbop]

i'd be very suprised if you came up against 3 techmarines when playing 1v1 or 2v2.

[Bombstarter]

It's not the turret spam that's the problem really, its turrets along with Tacs that make it very hard to stop in a 2v2 game. This is only exacerbated if both teams are Space Marine. On a map like 2v2 Calderis Refinery, they cap their two power nodes and turret them in to defend almost before you can get your army to the other side of the map (provided you cap a few points on the way). Once their power is protected they can turret creep into the center and cover two of the VPs. This is while their armies cap close points and fall back to the turrents and each other's armies respectively. Given the state of unit balance, its a VERY hard nut to crack in T1 and the fact that they can raid your power while there's is protected from T1 units makes getting out of the hole difficult.

[BudgetMessiah]

I think turrets should not fire on a unit that is immediately next to it, other people have said it before, and I think it is a valid suggestion. I don't know how tyranid deal with this, honestly.

Termagants could pick away at one for a few minutes if I leave them parked in a flanking position and the enemy lets me. Hormagaunts could pile on and kill it relatively quickly, but at terrible cost if my enemy is aware of my intent.

If I can afford to get a squad of raveners out, behind it, and convince the raveners to all stand on one side and hit the thing, that's perfect, but again my enemy has to allow this to happen with his troops, as raveners are apparently fickle and suicidal things.

If melee units who could flank could also melee with relatively little danger of being suppressed by the turret once they have done so, it would be great. Also, for orks, because their burnas will not stay put, sometimes even running out of nearby cover to melee a turret.

[Misiok]

Oh, I've had alot of games with me and my mates turret spamming, hoping for someone to counter it (unfortunately no one did ) . I've saved a bunch of replays of us winning almost each game (lost only one I think) on pretty much most of the 3v3 maps. If anyone wants it, tell me so I can post it somewhere. (be quick, the beta is ending, and it's best time to see the turret spamming in it's prime, before it goes into oblivion!)

Turrets are definitely overpowered, and nothing in early game can counter it, and if you are clever enough, they won't be able to go behind it.

[MasterBlaster]

I would like to see turrets changed.
No req but 10 power cost.
100 energy cost

480 health
loses 8 health a second.(lasts 60 seconds)
and they drop in like the single player campaign, the TM/mekboy can pick anywhere on the map they have vision and drop a turret.

[craft-star]

True, but it is hard to do this when there is an apothecary and his two tac squads guarding the techmarine and his tacs, all of which are being healed by the apoth's healing aura.

It is not a turret problem then. He could easily used a dev/shuri plat instead.
Turrets would be OP if you couldnt counter them with anything in t1, while they were standing alone. But they can be countered with many things: jumptroops/flamers/power wpns.

Oh, I've had alot of games with me and my mates turret spamming, hoping for someone to counter it (unfortunately no one did ) . I've saved a bunch of replays of us winning almost each game (lost only one I think) on pretty much most of the 3v3 maps. If anyone wants it, tell me so I can post it somewhere. (be quick, the beta is ending, and it's best time to see the turret spamming in it's prime, before it goes into oblivion!)

Turrets are definitely overpowered, and nothing in early game can counter it, and if you are clever enough, they won't be able to go behind it.

Lets see the replays.

I would like to see turrets changed.
No req but 10 power cost.
100 energy cost

480 health
loses 8 health a second.(lasts 60 seconds)
and they drop in like the single player campaign, the TM/mekboy can pick anywhere on the map they have vision and drop a turret.

And how would you justify the 10 power cost for a turret that lasts 60 seconds? That is practicly a powe sink because even if the enemy does not counter it it is dead in 60 seconds (or less if it has been damaged). I dont know any other unit that costs 10 power and practicly disappears in 60secs.

[Misiok]

@ Craft-star - Posted => http://forums.relicnews.com/showthre...39#post3587339

[MasterBlaster]

easy, as I said it drops in like the single player campaign.

Ability to drop a turret anywhere you have vision instantly but costs 100 energy and 10 power so it cant be spammed.

Nids gaunts go around and move to attack your power, you drop a turret
for up to 60 seconds it will keep them busy, protection the generators and stop them getting killed.

Ability to drop a turret where you need it even one that lasts only up to 60 seconds(you could always have mutiple scouts repairing one to stop it dieing or make it last longer)
Would be quite useful, and the energy cost ensures you can build more then one at anyone time till your hero gets higher level or your tieing up scouts or sluggas in repairing which means they cant capping or fighting.

It was just an idea :P

[craft-star]

But the constant life decrese makes it unpractical for example nids razing your power. If they can close in its bye bye in seconds. Also the drop in has some set up time, so they can either retrat or close in and rape it (FoF + shees). Also if you dedicate a scout squad for repair you are getting that squad away from somewhere else where you would need it.

@ Craft-star - Posted => http://forums.relicnews.com/showthre...39#post3587339

Thanks watching

[Sabulum]

Constant life decrease is over the top. I'm also hesitant about the power increase. I'd say a req increase and give it a minimum firing range.

Turrets can only be countered by certain T1 units that you have to specially get, not always in the course of a normal build. Getting jump troops is useless against a supported turret, flamers only work when you can flank it (which is not always possible, as Chris pointed it, on certain maps and certain placements of turrets). Spamming three turrets is retarded and I've only seen nubs do it, but getting 1-2 can basically lock down an entire stretch of the map until much later in the game. When that entire stretch of map includes a contested VP and gen farm, that is a game turner which is almost uncounterable.

[craft-star]

Constant life decrease is over the top. I'm also hesitant about the power increase. I'd say a req increase and give it a minimum firing range.

Turrets can only be countered by certain T1 units that you have to specially get, not always in the course of a normal build. Getting jump troops is useless against a supported turret, flamers only work when you can flank it (which is not always possible, as Chris pointed it, on certain maps and certain placements of turrets). Spamming three turrets is retarded and I've only seen nubs do it, but getting 1-2 can basically lock down an entire stretch of the map until much later in the game. When that entire stretch of map includes a contested VP and gen farm, that is a game turner which is almost uncounterable.

Thats the key word. Almost. Most high ts players don't use turrets that much or can't. The "turret spamming phenomena" is a ts<20 problem. And its a problem on calderis foundry ts20< but i have said that many many times before.

[BudgetMessiah]

Turrets do not have a T1 counter. It's really that simple. Counters, necassarily, cost as little as what they counter, if not less. Otherwise, you cannot reasonably be expected to bring it out as a response, which is what a counter is: a response.

The cheapest jump troop costs as much as two turrets, which you can make facing each other, which makes them unstoppable to jump troops, so forget that. Flamers cost more than a single turret, and only the space marine flamer is effective against turrets (sluggas attempt melee), and if you make 2 facing each other, again this makes flamers useless. Power weapons, and all melee, fail because either the melee units will swarm to the front of the turret, or the turrets are facing each other, which makes them immune to melee.

This is all just assuming your opponent has only turrets in the area. If he has shootas or tacs in the area, they'll mow down whatever challenges the turret.

There is no counter. The only way you can possibly overcome this is if the turret rusher makes a mistake.

[craft-star]

Turrets do not have a T1 counter. It's really that simple. Counters, necassarily, cost as little as what they counter, if not less. Otherwise, you cannot reasonably be expected to bring it out as a response, which is what a counter is: a response.

The cheapest jump troop costs as much as two turrets, which you can make facing each other, which makes them unstoppable to jump troops, so forget that. Flamers cost more than a single turret, and only the space marine flamer is effective against turrets (sluggas attempt melee), and if you make 2 facing each other, again this makes flamers useless. Power weapons, and all melee, fail because either the melee units will swarm to the front of the turret, or the turrets are facing each other, which makes them immune to melee.

This is all just assuming your opponent has only turrets in the area. If he has shootas or tacs in the area, they'll mow down whatever challenges the turret.

There is no counter. The only way you can possibly overcome this is if the turret rusher makes a mistake.

So you say that there are no counters to turrets facing each other in t1. Lovely then where is the TURRET problem? Its the same as 2 devs, or 2 plats facing each other. Also flamers cost less then a turret POWER wise.
And you can force anybody to make a mistake. IF there is a turret rusher you already have made a mistake. Simple as that.

[BudgetMessiah]

Nope. I can melee a devastator. Jump troops, grenades, and specials on rangers and scouts can disrupt them. These are viable counters.

None of them work on turrets.

Flamers do not cost less than a turret. They require a 500 req unit to place them on. For the price of that tactical, you can drop 300 requisition of generators in advance, have more power faster than the tactical-flamer guy, still have enough req for a turret, and oh yeah, the tactical-flamer still doesn't counter the turret. If placed in such a way that the turret is against a wall, that flamer can't even flank.

After watching just part of the replay pack above, I am in awe that people are still defending this as as a fair and valid strategy.

[glenn3e]

Which means the turret player has no tac marines, which means I can use my tacs to cap the other points, since nothing can stop them yet and proceed to rape his gen farms.

[BudgetMessiah]

Why would you assume this? He just has 1 less squad than you do. And he's closer to tier 2, remember, you built marines and he built gens/turrets.

[craft-star]

Which means the turret player has no tac marines, which means I can use my tacs to cap the other points, since nothing can stop them yet and proceed to rape his gen farms.

This also.
You have to make u huge mistake if u loose to turret spam. Ive got a turret spam replay if u are interested.

Why would you assume this? He just has 1 less squad than you do. And he's closer to tier 2, remember, you built marines and he built gens/turrets.

t2 costs req too

[BudgetMessiah]

T2 costs req for both parties, and I explained, the turret player likely is closer to this goal than the other party. What is your point?

And, yes, share your replay. This shows how turret spam is fair?

[craft-star]

T2 costs req for both parties, what is your point?

And, yes, share your replay. This shows how turret spam is fair?

Nothing is fair in this game. IF you want to play rock-paper-scico then go play supreme commander.
Turret spam is ONLY useable if your oponent is teribed. Period

[Misiok]

Ow come on, I've made turret spam replay pack, just check it out :/ .
@glenn3e - Turret spamming works best in 3v3's, as in two players can spam turrets, one can spam a bit more than the second, and the third can easily cap and fight points. If you trap someone in his own base, it's even easier, as they'll mostly try to counter the mass turrets, get suppressed and retreat with his full force, disabling player number 1 for some time, giving time to cap some points.

[BudgetMessiah]

@craft-star

So, I guess this means you aren't sharing the replay? Instead, do you think repeating the same disproved argument, but throwing in a couple of personal slams (go play Supreme Commander) will persuade?

[stranger]

Well, in all fairness, convincing anybody wether turrets are OP, UP, or a flock of pidgeons is quite moot, since in the end the balancing will be done independly of whatever gets established here...

Just a thought.

[craft-star]

@craft-star

So, I guess this means you aren't sharing the replay? Instead, do you think repeating the same disproved argument, but throwing in a couple of personal slams (go play Supreme Commander) will persuade?

I will post it, atm im playing. Whenever i get nat i come here and rant

Well, in all fairness, convincing anybody wether turrets are OP, UP, or a flock of pidgeons is quite moot, since in the end the balancing will be done independly of whatever gets established here...

Just a thought.

Hahaha indeed. But relic has the tendency to make the wrong decisions. Buff IG

[BudgetMessiah]

Posting a replay after the beta ends is like never having posted it at all.

Also a convenient way to say that your point is reasonable, without ever having to prove it.

[craft-star]

Posting a replay after the beta ends is like never having posted it at all.

Also a convenient way to say that your point is reasonable, without ever having to prove it.

Lol okay check your inbox in 5 seconds.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Q04PX9EP heres the replay. But the other guys were playing terribly sooo

[BudgetMessiah]

If they were playing terribly, then it's not a very conclusive replay.

The many replays in Misiok's set showed all 3 players spamming turrets, usually to excess, and even with their opponents knowing what was coming, it didn't seem to help them. Breaking through the turrets with limited support in T1 seemed almost impossible, their opponents could only hold as much ground as was not already locked in by turrets, and by the time they had the tools to break through, the battle was already pitched against them.