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[1.4.2] Are Heavy Bolter Devestators a liability?

  1. #1
    Member D-coy's Avatar
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    [1.4.2] Are Heavy Bolter Devestators a liability?

    Hey,

    I'm a low skill player (TS 7) and I've found HBDevs to be really underwhelming in a 1v1 situation. I can't comment on other setup teams, but those might need the same attention as HBDevs do.

    I think the issues with them are the following and one combination of these suggestions should be implemented to make HBDevs a more reliable choice in Tier 1:

    1. They cost a bit too much. I already suffer against double Slugga and double Shee builds. Maybe it has something to do with me getting power too early, but I think that SM need power ASAP to not get outteched. They need Flamers for power denial and Scout Shotguns against melee blobs. Also, HBDevs are a supposed counter to mass melee units, but I can't get enough of them out or can't get one out fast enough to make a difference.

    If they would be cheaper, SM players could afford one squad while still getting some offensive power on their units.

    Suggestions: Reduce their cost from 250 req 30 pow to 230 req 20 pow. Increase the pow cost of Vengeance Rounds from 10 pow to 15 pow to make it fair.

    2. Their range is not long enough, or they're not effective enough at long range. Without a doubt HBDevs are a defensive unit. Their set-up and tear-down times, as well as their limited fire-arc suggest that. But for defending and area they're not effective enough. There are too much counters to them, and all of those counters totally take them out of a fight, usually forcing them to retreat. If you camp them at a VP or a Gen farm in a way so that they can't be flanked so easily (only from one way), they won't have enough range to cover the resource point from being captured by ranged units. They'll happily cap the VP or destroy your gens, while your HBDevs will only be able to tickle them.

    Suggestions: Increase their damage at their max range, or even better, increase their range by 5-10 units (or more if needed). This way the opponent will be forced to actually disrupt or flank them instead of using cheap workarounds.

    3. They do not do enough damage to be fearful. It's already a task in itself to find a good position for them, and once they start shooting, the opponent usually walks out of their arc, throws a grenade to disrupt them while being suppressed or actually reaches them and decimates the whole squad in melee. Once it occured to me that 3 full, upgraded Banshee squads charged my HBDevs head on, and without any problem reached my marines, tied them up, forced a retreat, and kill them while they were slugging back to base. The point of this unit should be that it can only cover a relatively small area, but it murders infantry in that area. Currently, they don't do that fast enough. Even if they do, the opponent can simply retreat from the middle of their field of fire at mid-range, gaining full speed fast, and running away with almost no losses. How's that fair?

    Suggestions: Make them do 30% more damage mid-range. Should be enough to punish those who charge in, but not the ones who notice your squad and find a way around. Or make it so that HBDevs deal 20% more damage to retreating units, preventing cheap hit-and-run attacks from happening. Furthermore, increase the damage of Vengeance Rounds to vehicles, allowing SMs to counter walkers more easily without a Missile Launcer. With the ML it's almost too easy, without it, it's pretty much impossible.

    4. For their current cost, they are too suspectible to ranged fire. It's somewhat okay if melee units butcher them, but there were occasions which on HBDevs were killed by ranged units, focus firing them down at a frightening rate. Shouldn't they be stronger at range than regular ranged units, since they have a mobility disadvantage?

    Suggestions: Increase their HPs by 50-100. This will allow them to take more ranged hits, but melee will still be a threat. Shuriken Plats received a HPs buff, too, HBDevs should get some of that love.

    5. They're far too defensive oriented, yet, they don't fill that role very well (see above points).

    Suggestions: Alternatively, they could be made into a more mobile, offensive unit. Remove their tear-down time. This would somewhat be enough, so if this is done, the other suggested changes could be ignored. This way they still could be locked into melee, especially after being disrupted, but you wouldn't lose a squad to retreating after some melee units have reached your guys, despite them being fired upon by your Devs.

    While thinking about changes one should also consider that this unit, along with other suppression units, is bugged. Sometimes they won't fire at all, other times they only fire at one squad while 2 or more charges them or they re-set-up if you order them to manually target a unit, regardless of those being in the firing-arc or not.

    Personally, I'd choose the changes #1, #2 and #3. How about you? Do you think they need some extra power to become an asset instead of a liability?
    Last edited by D-coy; 17th Jul 09 at 5:48 AM.
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  2. #2
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    TBH D-Coy the issue is more the Devs are trying to make them function like CoH MG';s but they lack 2 big advantages of MG's.

    1. CoH MG's cut the damage of any unit by roughly 95% when they pin them, (the CoH equivelent of being suppressed).

    2. CoH MG's stop a pinned squad from moving much (except via retreat).


    Because of those two facts one basic volks + 1 MG can destroy a full 5 rifle squads if the rifles try to attack the MG head on. Despite the rifles costing more than double the MG's cost. Of course if the ami player retreates the instant he becomes pinned he'll only lose about 50MP in rifle reinforcemtns, (a rifle squad costs 270MP, a volks 280MP and an MG 240MP (last time i played), basic pre-upkeep MP income is 300MP a minute for both sides).

    HBD just aren't as dangerous to anything as CopH MG's because they don't inflict anywhere near the same pnalties, but have the same damage, (and generally enemy squads are tougher too).
    I don't know what i'm talking about, ignore me.

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  3. #3
    Member D-coy's Avatar
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    Well if they cannot pin opposing squads down, we might as well consider improving them in some other way. That's why I brought up some ideas.

  4. #4
    they are bugged
    They dont target properly(same problem as turrets) can not fire at units
    sometimes fire at units and do no damage...
    Unlike turrets if you tell them to reattack sometimes they will resetup or even run to the enemy squad you targeted.

    Ontop of this, they can be charged right down the middle and overrun.
    There long range damage needs to be increased so they are a counter to spam.

    Currently I think the HWT would be ok if they had more hitpoints so they didnt instantly die to a single bloody grenade and the like.

  5. #5
    Member D-coy's Avatar
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    Good points, MB. I forgot to mention the bugs. I included them in the first post.

  6. #6
    I was just thinking
    suspression damage should be doubled for all suspression weapons.

    then all ranged troops should be given 50% suspression resistance.

    Suspression teams should also once setup always be considered in heavy cover. Even if there isnt any, idea being there had to dig in and sight there weapons.

  7. #7
    Member D-coy's Avatar
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    @ MB

    I think your idea about doubling courage damage of suppression teams and giving ranged units resistance against them has some potential. This way suppression teams would counter melee better, but wouldn't punish ranged squads too much. The only problem is that it might be impossible to seperate the courage damage taken from suppression teams and from other sources, making ranged units resistant to all sources of courage damage.

    I'm not sure about giving them heavy cover while set-up. They could be positioned in far too effective places and would suffer bonus damage from flamers.


    Another idea I had is that they could get an ability which makes them immune to knockdown for a time (like in the campaign).

    Brainstorming is fun.

  8. #8
    flamers is what they used to take out boxed hwt nests in ww2 during d-day :P
    Its rather fitting, if you let a flamer get that close it should fry the hwt.
    hmmmmm
    intresting......

    flamer squads
    should get suspression resistance

    HWT proberly need there suspression damage increased anyways, some squads can run almost all the way in (ork with a few slugga squads giving waaagh bonus) before it takes effect.
    HWT for each race should be a hard counter to massed frontal assaults.

    infact if they were fixed to be such tac spam would become far less of a problem, only leaving nids with a problem.
    which is a far easier problem to fix.

    Then rangers and snipers would become more useful, along with ork loota squads.
    Tacs would be given something they aint designed to deal with so other units have to be built.

    Fixing HWT might fix alot of whats currently wrong with the beta.

    pity no more suggestionsa re being taken.

  9. #9
    Member WhiteDeVile's Avatar
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    I wonder when will Relic finally realise that there would be nothing wrong if all of the rapid firing setup units (so this excludes rangers, and beamy stuff) would work the same as HMGs in CoH.
    Since its the only reasonable way.

    Suppress quickly, up to a stall, to a point when the enemy squad cant do nothing but slowly die or retreat.
    Considering that theres grenades, jump troops, and abilities, it'll still be less effective than it is in CoH.

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  10. #10
    Member Kratos's Avatar
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    All deployable anti infantry is basically useless against a shooty army.
    Tacs with plasmas can face Heavy Bolters, Platforms, etc. headfirst and win with ease!

  11. #11
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    I wonder when will Relic finally realise that there would be nothing wrong if all of the rapid firing setup units (so this excludes rangers, and beamy stuff) would work the same as HMGs in CoH.
    Since its the only reasonable way.

    Suppress quickly, up to a stall, to a point when the enemy squad cant do nothing but slowly die or retreat.
    Considering that theres grenades, jump troops, and abilities, it'll still be less effective than it is in CoH.
    That was what i was getting at.

    Up the rate of suppreshion and the penalties for being supprssed and you'd be onto a winner.

  12. #12
    Member AntiCommie's Avatar
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    HWT's need longer range. Right now its very hard to get a blob into the arc of a HWT. If we had 10-15 more range, they would be easier to protect and their arc would be bigger. Their long range damage isnt really great, so using them to "snipe" at long ranges wouldnt be too effective.

    Another thing would be to make setup faster, but then they become more like ranged units with bigger guns. I'd rather keep them different.

  13. #13
    I'd rather see them lower or outright remove the teardown time, and let the HWT rotate in place without redeploying. Give buildings better cover, but make redeploying to change facing inside them take the same amount of time as redeploying in the open.

    And Whitedevile: the only thing in your list that wasn't in CoH was the jumptroops. See: fire it up + Lol, 'nade in your lap! or Heroic charge + a 15 man angry tommy steamroller. Or ninja sturmtroopen delivered bundle nade.

  14. #14
    I like Devastators. The only problem is keeping them alive throughout the entire game to not lose res points for building it.
    The only problem is dealing with Ravaners , Mekboy and warp spiders. But there is a way around it. U can always set up sneakily.. ;p Most likely he will Target Priority 1 so, act accordingly.

  15. #15
    Some ideas to make supression teams useful:

    1. Take their power cost away. Why exactly do HBDevs cost 30 power and plasma devs cost no power? doesn't make much sense...

    2. Remove teardown time so they can retreat swiftly and, you know, not die instantly to everything.

    3. Fix their bugs, as previously said.

    With sooo many counters avaliable against HWTs I think they should be made more effective, not less. Positive side effects include countering blobs and adding variety to games (please!).

  16. #16
    Member Pocktio's Avatar
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    They cost power so people don't spam them.

    They have teardown so you can't fof them around.
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  17. #17
    Do people really want to spam hwts? I don't see the point to that.

    I concede that no teardown time would prolly be excessive, but what about no teardown only when retreating?

    edit: anyway they need something cos they kinda suck atm

  18. #18
    Member Pocktio's Avatar
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    Do people really want to spam hwts? I don't see the point to that.
    I guess you've only played 1.4+

  19. #19
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    D-coy: try using your HBDs as a fallback unit rather than a frontline unit.

    Set them up early and keep pushing up with your other units. Try to stay within the range and arc of your HBDs. When the enemy starts to press you fall back a little bit and draw them into the suppression fire.

    Most problems with grenades, enemies wading forward, etc. occur because you have no vision in front of the suppression team. This means the enemy won't be suppressed until they are inside grenade range. (This doesn't count Ork grenades with their OMG-range. )

    Keeping your supression teams back also makes it difficult for the enemy to get their assault teams within jump range, since they have to soak the fire from your other units first. If you're lucky, they'll commit their assault teams against your normal troops. Then all you have to do is kite back a bit and they are pinned.
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  20. #20
    Chappy FooF's Avatar
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    Kind of what Carl said, set-up teams aren't as deadly as their CoH cousins but cost, relatively speaking, 3x as much. However, unlike CoH, you have a lot of melee units which have to close in to do damage. That is to say, they have to be less deadly or they'd trump melee outright.

    In CoH T1 it was MG>Infantry>Mortars/Snipers>MG. Snipers were greater than infantry in some cases but easily remedied by a cheap Jeep or Bike.

    In DoW2 it should be HWT>Melee>Ranged>HWT (with the mobility of ranged trumping the firepower of HWT). However, since HWT is late to the fight, melee dominates and the HWT can't handle 2-3 squads of melee units on its own (though it may very well kill its Req's worth before being overwhelmed).

    I basically see the problem of HWT as being too late to be of any use since Jump Troops (which are also > HWT) aren't very far behind them. They have such small window of strength that it's not worth building them.
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  21. #21
    Member D-coy's Avatar
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    @ TDS

    I usually camp my power with them, or another point of importance. I don't charge them head-on into open field, which I think you thought I'd do. If not, my bad.

    So do you suggest that I move them with my offensive, basically keep leap-frogging? If yes, then thanks for the tip, I'll try to experiment with that. Currently, I've found them too sluggish to use them in the way you described, but I'll keep trying.

    It seems I need more vision in front of them. Thanks, I've never considered that to be a big issue. I always thought that they can see as far as they can shoot.

    Had success with using Shuri Plats as a fall back unit, I must keep trying using Tacs more like that.

    Again, thanks for the pointers.

    Also FooF, you have a point there. Maybe HWTs have to be more dominant early game to be effective.

  22. #22
    Member Carl's Avatar
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    Kind of what Carl said, set-up teams aren't as deadly as their CoH cousins but cost, relatively speaking, 3x as much. However, unlike CoH, you have a lot of melee units which have to close in to do damage. That is to say, they have to be less deadly or they'd trump melee outright.

    In CoH T1 it was MG>Infantry>Mortars/Snipers>MG. Snipers were greater than infantry in some cases but easily remedied by a cheap Jeep or Bike.

    In DoW2 it should be HWT>Melee>Ranged>HWT (with the mobility of ranged trumping the firepower of HWT). However, since HWT is late to the fight, melee dominates and the HWT can't handle 2-3 squads of melee units on its own (though it may very well kill its Req's worth before being overwhelmed).

    I basically see the problem of HWT as being too late to be of any use since Jump Troops (which are also > HWT) aren't very far behind them. They have such small window of strength that it's not worth building them.
    I've highlight a couple of points in your post for adressal.

    First up as ever the whole point of of Suppreshions weapons IS to render head on attacks by melee, (or indeed anything else), irrelevent. Thats the whole problem with them ATM is that CoH MG's did that and DoWII one's don't. Thats the long and short of the whole problem. Suppreshion teams are set up to work the same way as CoH MG's but have none of the advantages that CoH MG's had that actually made them work.

    You also go on about Snipers and mortars in CoH. The smple reality is no ione ever uses mortars or snipers as a counter nder normal cicumstances. It just wasn't practical. Making use of good flanking was the only practical counter in all but extreme situations. Their sheer frailty made a flanking move lethal to them, (though not tottally uncounterable as more than one of my enemies found out to their cost :evil: ).

    Ultimetly though you are correct in that DoWII uses a diffrent balance system. Thats part of the issue. Suppreshion weapons as they existed in CoH don't fit too well into DoWII because melee is so diffrent in how it's expected to function to SMG units, and ranged units don't eactly work the same eithier. The maps are also not really set up for Suppreshion teams to work right.

    The Main reason i brought up chaning them to a more CoH style was simply it's somthing we know works. But ultimetly with current map design and unit balancing it would create many issues as well. It would just fix one probelm and give us more to deal with, but i also don't see how else to fix the issue TBH, Suppreshion qweapons that can't stop a mass head on charge dead are never going to be useful.

  23. #23
    +1 for fixing the targeting bugs.
    +1 for making suppression more 'suppression-y' (can't move, can't shoot too much, hampered severely but not permanently stuck like it is at the moment).
    +1 for making any unit that the HWT fires on suppressed, but that HWT has to shoot a burst (it cannot shoot once, suppress that target, switch targets, suppress that, and hold a large group that's spread out (say one squad on one side of the arc and the other squad on the other side of the same arc) to be suppressed.
    Z405:
    I just don't like this; i can understand that there need to be counters, but this is just retarded.

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