|
|
|
I think that Tactical Marines should have a T1 upgrade besides Flamers, that cost quite a bit of power, but give the whole squad just power weapons, Swords etc. Like an HQ choice Melee Veteran squad.
They lose Their ranged resistance aura, and possibly their ranged capability all together. So SM would be able to have a dedicated Melee Squad to use in T1, but at a cost of the setback of their powerful T2.
Any input?
Last edited by Noble; 17th Jul 09 at 11:30 AM. Reason: More descriptive title
Would be awesome to see, but wouldn't ASMs become even more redundant if this was done?
GFWL gamertag/ LoL name: ReadInPeace
Just call me Readin'
Exactly ASMs already have a role that they play very well.
Very well ? Their role is just "well thought out",
but how they currently PERFORM in it... I wouldnt call it "well" at all...
#5
I've updated the title to be more descriptive.
No, ASM are shock troops, to help versus suppression teams and tackle ranged and tie them up.
Tacs with melee upgrade would be more dedicated melee units, high dps, only basic close-to-melee charge, so since tacs are slow they would be very vulnerable to kiting, but you would have a counter to T1 melee, other than ASM who lose to every other races melee specialist, including Stormboys, who perform the same role and cost less.
ASM perform their role very well, and buffing them any more would make them too good. See past. So instead, making a new upgrade for Tacs, removing range and giving them powerswords would give SM a better counter system. I don't think it would make ASM redundant, they would still be there to fill the role of disruption and vehicle stunning, etc. But the Tacs would be the bread and butter melee DPS troops, it works with balance, and it would be fluffy.
Feel free to keep discussing the topic, because i personally loved the old mods from DoW I, with Veterans or close combat devastators. Great unit, they will probably do this with Chaos anyway with berserkers so they probably already have it in the works.
#7
I'd personally love to see the Veterans from the SP campaign (on Tarkus' squad) with all their power weapons (axe, fist, chainsword) running into battle but Tacs don't need an upgrade for that. At all.
Tacs need to be primarily ranged with some melee capability. ASM need to be primarily melee with some mobility capability. Put those together and you have two complimentary units. Right now, ASM are primarily mobility with some melee capability, which makes them no more than flying Tacs at the moment. They need more differentiated roles.
I liked the idea of assault marines and the ability to choose between jump packs and veterancy with no jump packs. Not so sure about balance issues though.
Knife King of Doltland
I'm not surprised. Anything within three feet of you seems to end up full of knife shaped holes.
apart from the whole "omg this would be coolio" factor, why is this needed? scouts already perform well as an anti melee unit.
No, Seaka, no. Besides there being no fluff or tabletop version of this (and they usually think of everything that might be a little crazy, but still acceptable), there is no real lack of gameplay because of this problem. I say that you should be able to equip the ASM sergeant with a power sword/plasma pistol and it would actually mean something (like the Slugga's Nob).
Z405:I just don't like this; i can understand that there need to be counters, but this is just retarded.
Since when is Space Marines with power weapons not fluffy? And scouts countering melee fine is wonky at best. Get caught without your cooldown and it's GG.
So we're forced to get 2 shotgun scouts to 'babysit' our superhuman space marines so they don't get punched in the face and cry, plus a capping squad, that seems fine to you? Really? Because atm, it doesn't work for me, and is a pain in the rear that no other race has to deal with.
Yes lets give SM another reason to only build tacs...
What Pocktio says sounds good.
I'd prefer having two kinds of ASM. One with Jump packs and chainswords (like now) and maybe one with power swords/axes for more dps, specially as heavy armor counter.
And yeah, Scouts might perform good right now, but they always have shotguns. There wouldn't even be much of a difference if scouts would come out with shotguns right away with higher price and buildtime. The SM counter system too melee is a bit lame at the moment imo, with just one viable choice.
...
yeah Acanthor exactly :P SMs prolly has the most amount of units to choose from and still we just see people using one t1 Squad massing it. although tac blobing is not the topic for this thread.
I'd say let ASMs change their equipment to power weapons and plasma pistols in Tier 3. Axes, or whatever is available in regards of the fluff or TT. Also, I agree with some in that the Sarge should come with a plasma pistol.
This would let SM players to actually do something else in Tier 3 other than spamming Preds, getting T3 wargear, and waiting for Zeal to accumulate for Termies or an OB. The upgrade should be expensive, though.
The Space Marine army is about, surprise, space marines. The bread and butter will always be tacticals, they adapt to AI, or AV, have high HP to deal with T2-T3 units. You build Tacs as your main force and other units to compliment them, SM isn't like other armies.
If you don't like Tac "spam" -See playstyle, then just build AoE counters. But this is getting off-topic.
Maybe make another T1 choice, thats basically ASM, with no jump packs, buffed melee damage, and maybe a power weapon upgrade for the whole squad in T2 and maybe a Sarge in T3.
Shotgun scouts is sloppy at best for a melee counter, and besides encouraging scout spam, it makes SM very micro-intensive, more-so than other races because a badly placed explosive shot means your tacs will be wiped by melee, which is costly.
Wouldn't it be better to just give ASM a power weapon upgrade so they're at least useful in mirrors? As it stands, if you build a tac + ASM combo and run it up against a pure tac build, the enemy tacs can and will beat your ASM to death while your tacs pew-pew at them. It's... depressing. Especially in tier 1. Plasma changes things up a bit once you hit tier 2, in that your fire support actually has some effect. But so do sergeants and TSKNF.
And LOWER. THE. COST. A fully upgraded ASM squad costs 650/105 and 20 pop cap. For a unit that can be deployed effectively against .. what... scouts (snipers/bolters only, not shotguns) and plats for SM, guardians', rangers and plats for eldar, and shoota's and tank busta's for orks (loota's, but I can't remember the last time I saw one). Everything else beats them either for cost or just beats them. The presence of anything not on that list at the other end of the jump will likely force the retreat of the squad. Jump/retreat makes tac spam 'shoot till melee hits your lines, then retreat' look awfully attractive by comparison.
You are wrong, Seaka, terribly wrong.
1) Power Weapons are rare, even among SM. Wasting them on Tactical Marines, that are mostly in Ranged combat is more unwise than any Commander could be.
2) While Space Marines are about Space Marines, it is NOT that Tacticals are the bread and butter. It is NOT that they adapt.
What do you think, what all these different troop choices are there, if Tacticals where good for everything. Their role is to decimate the opponent throu bolterfire, while still having the small chance to bring down armor and to beat weak commanders with their Seargent.
Big armor? SM get Devastorsquads, tanks or ASM with meltabombs.
Swarms of enemys? Again Devastors, Whirlwinds or Demolishers.
Big melee Commanders? Get your own Commanders or get Terminators.
What are Tacs for? To help out a little, no matter what typ of enemy comes. They support.
So much for the fluff.
Now gameplay:
Tacs should not have power weapons, because:
1) Troops with powerweapons need to be fragile, Tacs are not.
2) Armys need to be diverse, your suggestion already exists, go play eldar.
3) ASM are the melee troop, Tacs are the ranged men.
War does not determine who is right,
...only who is left
I've been wanting this before the game was even released, because we never even got it in DoW. Then when we finally got it in the SP campaign, it became a MUST have.
This is Dawn of War II, not Starcraft. DoW/40k fans want certain things, you're not going to find in other games like Starcraft and other RTS games. Part of that means many units options for the player to pick from. even if they fit similar roles (like DoW 1).
Power Weapon troops need to be fragile? Why do they need to be fragile necessarily? Nobz, AG Warriors, Stormboyz, Terminators ect aren't very fragile.
ASM are the melee troops for SM at the moment, but they're not melee units that can go toe to toe with other melee units. A Tact squad with a melee upgrade would fit a a very different role than ASM. ASM are fast strikers, and are meant to be shock troops to counter ranged units. A Veteran squad, or melee upgrade for tacts are tough heavy hitters, but are expensive, few in number. They'd make a great alternative choice to using shotguns to stop melee. SM aren't a one dimensional race, that only use ranged tactics to fight melee.
Giving each race plenty of units & upgrade choices to pick from is a good thing, and it's what made many of love DoW in the first place. Excluding awesome, exciting units & upgrades from the game is just really stupid. Each unit and upgrade exists in the Fluff & TT for a purpose, and each race uses them for important reasons. Relic only needs to understand the differences between each unit type, so they can make them unique and not copies of others gameplay wise.
Games like CoH:ToV introduced new units, but gave you options of what units you wanted to use. The new units fit similar roles to the existing units, but offered different advantages/disadvantages to the existing ones. So if you decided to select one unit type, another would become unavailable to you, so you had to choose what your army was going to look like. Which creates more planning and strategic depth. So if Relic takes DoW II down a similar path as ToV then that could work well with adding all the units from the Story/TT.
That would be interesting, swapping out your ASM squad altogether for a melee-oriented Tac Veteran squad or something. ASM still feel rather lackluster and having to have a bunch of scouts with shotguns baby-sitting my ranged army just doesn't feel like the right solution.
That's exactly my point, maybe make it an upgrade for ASM in T2-T3, "Chapter Veterancy", they lose goomba stomp, loose some durability, but gain the whole squad assorted power weapons, or just power swords(please make power axes), and maybe slow them down a bit, to make them fairly easily kitable by ranged, but can stand their own in melee, and if they manage to get into melee, they should inflict a bunch of damage.
ASM =/= SM melee troops, just like Stormboys don't =/= melee troops.
Having INITIATES, with almost no hp and measly shotguns, having to babysit tactical marines, with heavy armor and bolters is ridiculous, the mechanic of explosive shot is wonky and even though I'll admit it's an interesting mechanic, it shouldn't be how SM is balanced around melee. "Get a shotgun squad" shouldn't be the end-all be all of SM melee counters, all I'm asking for is choices, i don't know why people argue to vehemently against that.
At the moment, all you build anyway is 2-3 scout squads, you MUST upgrade shotguns to be viable at all, and 1 of those can cap, so maybe no shotguns. You never buy a sniper, and you never make less than 2 squads. Then you make 1-2 Tac squads and wait for T2, upgrades around, then 'maybe' build a razor or DN, then wait for T3 and spam preds(which rock now with good micro.) Some people build a HBD, but they are lackluster at best and only worth their cost in T1, and thats only if you get a bunch of lucky kills with it. HEY, why not make power weapons a HBD upgrade in T2? So you have 3 squad members, and yay you have less remorse about wasting money on a T1 unit that becomes irrelevant.
It's boring, why can orks use Sluggas and Shootas all game and not get complained at, but SM get ridiculed?
That is maybe 3-4 types of troops, at best 4-5. Maybe make another unit all together, but this would change the playstyle of Sm and give more choices, which isn't a bad thing.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
