Balancing the Imperial Guard

[281tweaker]

Hello everybody. Long time servant of the Emperor who has been playing the IG devoutly for a while now. And after commanding them extensively on the battle field I have an issue that I feel should be accessed in order to bring them the competitive edge they are lacking IMHO.

I think a base unit of IG should cost 100 requisition.

Here is why;

-These guys are the meat and potatoes of my army. Aside from from 1 command squad, I have nothing during the opening stages of a game that poses any sort of serious threat during an assault. As if that wasn't bad enough, defending an assault (again aside from my command squad) the turrets on my LP's are doing like 90% of my damage. Really all my IG squads are doing is soaking up fire! Later tier's I get all the heavy weapons teams I can shake a stick at, 1 unit of Ogryn, and 1 unit of Karskin for infantry. And these guys are STILL the bulk of my infantry force, this is what I am given to work with. It's not like I'm given a lot of alternatives!

-The loss of a guard unit is particularly devastating in T1. While loosing a Tech Priest is devastating as well, I can see that being both balance and fair. While killing a Tech priest is probably one of the most devastating blows an enemy can land upon a guard player (especially in T1 imho), wiping out an entire unit of guard is a very close second. Not to mention easy! Such a meager feat as killing off a squad of guardsmen in T1 should be a set back it shouldn't be crippling! And while it has been argued that I could read up further than I already have on how to keep them alive longer, the problem is that I can't figure out WTF to do with them while they are alive!?

Which brings me to my next point...
- WTF do I do with them while they are alive?! A squad of guardsmen fresh on the battle field is useful for capping/decapping... And nothing else! Sure once you reinforce the squad fully they are good for capping/decapping and soaking up enemy fire, whoopity damn doo! But until you add and attach all these special bells and whistles (grenade launchers/priests or plasma rifles/commissar) I am having a hard time thinking of anything in the game that doesn't laugh at them when they attack with their pathetic lasrifles.

-In comparison with almost any other basic infantry unit they are a rip off. A SM player can get an equal number of Astartes for 20 more requisition. I fail to see the comparison between my IG who suck at everything to TSM who are good at everything and only cost 20 more requisition to field? wtf is that?! Especially when you equipped a guard squad with advanced weaponry and unit attachments in order to becomes average and when you equipped a TSM unit with advanced weaponry in order to become great. The fact that I'm currently paying 160 requisition for this is just seems ludicrous in my eyes.

-It just seems logical to me from a balancing stand point that when I should get what I pay for. A unit that performs cheaply
on the battle field should be cheap in cost.

Have at you!

[Weavern]

281, thanks for taking the time to post but this thread does not really follow the format required for balance issues.

I can see the reasoning you are trying to get across but you have not crafted a balance issue here. All there is a suggestion for how you think IG should be. You further point out that this is to 'vent' and whatnot.

Balance issues is to outline a balance issue in a clear and concise manner and then constructively outline how it should be fixed or changed. Not to act as a suggestion box for how the race should be more fluffy. If you would like to make a suggestion without creating a balance issue please use the suggestion box.

After some PM traffic, the user has modified the thread and it has been reopened.

[Sesshyru]

I can't think of anything to say that won't get me banned... Hum.. Maybe one thing..

You needa read IG fluff (even tho DoW does not follow the fluff), might answer some questions.

IG is pretty dam good as they are now. SM would break their bank trying to keep up with your mass.

You talking bout SS or DC?

Either way, I believe your balancing choice would break an already strong army.

*shrug*

[281tweaker]

I've read the first Gaunts Ghosts omnibus, I'm on the second, read Ciaphas Cain, read Burn the Galaxy, AND read the last chancers.

[Ifitmovesnukeit]

A reinforced guardsman at 20 req a pop I believe has one of the best damage-to-cost ratios in the entire game. They're meant to die a lot. I remember someone writing somewhere that if you're steadily losing guardsmen but inflicting plenty of return damage on the enemy, that means you're winning. A reasonably-reinforced guardsman squad that's in danger of being wiped out has probably broken anyway, so you should be running away with it. Stick it in a bunker or an LP, just make sure you take casualties in the form of reinforced men, not entire squads.

Guardsmen have such a massive squad tax to prevent you from massing a huge number of them too quickly. Sure, 100 req for a squad is the same as reinforcing 5 members in terms of men for req, but:

1) More squads with fewer men in each mean less guardsmen get tied up by melee units than an equal number of men distributed across fewer squads.

2) Morale issues end up affecting less guardsmen as more squads means more morale bars and a greater overall rate of morale regeneration for your army.

3) More squads means more spaces filled in bunkers to fire upon enemies from relative safety.

So in conclusion, I think 100 req guardsmen squads would have a major buffing effect on tier 1 guardsmen that I'm not sure they need. I'd like to see the tax disappear in tier 3 though as it's served its purpose by then.

[Arcinatus]

So in conclusion, I think 100 req guardsmen squads would have a major buffing effect on tier 1 guardsmen that I'm not sure they need. I'd like to see the tax disappear in tier 3 though as it's served its purpose by then.

I would agree with this, being a mainly IG player as well. In tier 1 the 160 is justified (although i still say 150 would be perfect, but i digress). If you think about it, if guardsmen stayed with the same stats and reinforce cost, but had a 100 build cost, they would be incredibly easy to mass alongside the CS, plus making the tactica easier to get since your spending less initial req on guardsmen. I would honestly say IG would be near-broken if they cost that much early game.

A reinforced guardsman at 20 req a pop I believe has one of the best damage-to-cost ratios in the entire game.

Taking this into account, plus how guardsmen are already plenty strong with upgrades / commanders. Cheap globals / powerful (and not too expensive) vehicles. IG would certainly be made much more powerful (which would be damn fine with me, but not so great for balance.)

[281tweaker]

Although I'm starting to see that 100 req is a little broken, I'm not any where near convinced that 160 is justified. ESPECIALLY in teir 1.
Tier 1 a guardsmen unit is good for.
A.) capping and decapping.
B.) Tieing up enemy units... and if I sucker him into tieing up with me near a turret I can actually win that engagement!
C.) Soaking up enemy fire.... and if I sucker him into fire fighting with me near a turret I can actually win that engagement!

You are stuck using your FC in order to make any assault what so ever. I just feel like this would open up some more versatile build orders for the guard. Every opponent I fight wouldn't know for a fact that I was coming at him with my FC. Maybe they would lure ME into combat near a turret in order to gain a much needed advantage for once!

[Ifitmovesnukeit]

The race design is not ideal to be sure, but I'm not convinced it's unbalanced in tier 1. Yes, fluff wise it's ridiculous that you should be more worried about losing a guardsman squad than your command squad (and choose to save the former over the latter if you can only save one) but that's how it is.

I still think you underestimate the offensive power of guardsmen though... your opponent ignores them at his peril. Your goal is to cause enough disruptive havoc with the CS in order that you can shred your opponent with massed lasfire. If you can get "Death before Dishonour" reasonably fast, it'll really help with your initial morale problems.

[281tweaker]

At this point Death before Dishonor is a waste of my time, when I can have a Commissar there to hold my moral AND boost my rate of fire at the same time.
Further more, if you honestly expect me to pay for both the Infantry Command Bunker & the Tactical Control early in the game. I kind of feel that you supporting my argument. Especially if your expecting me to get a Chimera on the map any time before minute 7.

[Ifitmovesnukeit]

Depends. It's been a while since I played SS but the crazy fast tech of DC was toned down, a tactica before the tier 2 research would generally have been a bad idea back then. Commies are perfectly good though- the morale boost is very welcome and the health regen effect he provides only accentuates the need to keep squads alive to benefit from it. I tend to juggle him between squads so he's always with the most injured.

[281tweaker]

I'm trying to see what everyone is talking about with the Guardsmen squad being powerful late game. But I'm having a harder time finding a reason to when I can field Karskin, Ogryn, ect.
By the time I get a Lemans Russ on the battle field their usually isn't even enough room for more than 2-4 squads.
What does every one think about them being super cheap (100req) during T1 and the price increases as I upgrade them? (150max)?

[Cat_Dance]

If your concern is balance, then your idea would make IG horribly broken. Comparing GM's to SM tacs is a terrible comparison - IG already have a huge advantage over SM on most maps, and your idea is to buff IG by making gm's cheaper... Watch some replays to understand how to use gm's, they are a powerhouse all game long, except maybe if you are against a good elf. Theres plenty of reps of good IG players around.

[corncobman]

Yeah, three IG squads massed together pretty much hold their own against other armies in terms of attrition. Making it possible to mass four squads straight away means they will overrun every other race when massed.

[Arcinatus]

I'm trying to see what everyone is talking about with the Guardsmen squad being powerful late game.

Late game, yes, i would get kasrkin / ogryns and possibly 1-2 HWT's out when possible. but otherwise i fill out the rest of my pop cap with GM and the CS. GM are wonderful with upgrades and heavy weapons. plus both are cheap (unless your taking massive casualties) Main thing to remember with guardsmen is that they are very effective for their cost.

Anyway, tbh this game is most likely not going to get patched ever again so this discussion is kind of futile

edit: and on a random side note....mass guardsmen pathing = fail. chims ftw!

[Dak3n]

Yea theres not going to be a patch and tbh IG are pretty strong in good hands. Only vs eldar are you going to have it tough, and yea its very easy to lose guardsmen so always have a way out for them and dont let them get cornered. IGs success is down to the techpriests so always upgrade your lps to fall back too and techpriest to repair if you get massed. A hard counter to any mass is grenades and dont worry about being out teched either. Think of guardsmen as a speedbump, to stall while you eco and tech and gets the tanks, upgrades ect in t2 then nice t3 units.

[edbop]

the chances of anymore patches for ss are almost nil. either way ig are not in bad shape. 3 gm squads fully reinforced is about as much firepower as you can get in t1. ig are a powerful race, be aggressive with them and you'll find life a lot easier.

[281tweaker]

I just can't see how you all can try to pass guard off as balanced. I loose a crappy squad of guardsmen it's game over. Eldar loose a squad of anything and they don't even break a sweat.

[Cat_Dance]

1) Every race suffers if they lose a squad, especially a capping squad.

2) IG has 1 bad matchup, elf. The others are at least even depending on maps. If you make IG any stronger, especially in t1, they will absolutely rape SM, SoB, Cron, CSM.

[Latias418]

Do you mind telling me how you come to the conclusion that losing a mainline squad is only bad for IG and not for all of the races?

[281tweaker]

I've read up the main thread on IG strategies and the guru himself says that the loss of a main line squad is particularly devastating.

Not being one to take everything I read, I played... and in my personal experience the loss of an IG squad in T1 is always game over. Been playing for a year or two now and with out fail. I loose an IG squad in teir 1 it's just a matter of time. There is no coming back, there is no recovering.

Now say I do catch a squad of banshee's in a scrap with my Command Squad while giving them supporting fire from a Guard Squad, a turret and some entrenched Tech Priests. The battle is barely over with before I get another rush.

Oddly enough, general consensus I receive on multi player is that IG has received the short end of the stick. I'm a little boggled at the varying opinions.

[edbop]

you'll hear all sorts of funky opinions on the lobby, take it with a pinch of salt. ig really are a powerful race, they have a great early harrassing unit in the cs and they are not a race you can rush on most maps. they also can put the most dps on the field straight of the bat, apart from maybe eldar gu spam.

[Cat_Dance]

Post a replay of what youre doing, odds are you are doing something wrong if you think IG are at the bottom tier of races. At low levels IG players have trouble because they dont know how to use the CS harass to its full potential, when and where to push, when to mass or eco or tech up, etc.

[Chaingun]

Solution: Nerf eldar.

Really, IMO eldar is IG's only problem. All other MUs are reasonably evenly matched or IG having an advantage.

Tau can be a problem in team games (try charging a dual Tau FW mass if your teammate is a kukoo), they are very rushable in 1v1 however where you're in full control.

As for people complaining IG is crap in lobby, most (> 95%) players aren't good enough to use races to the point where racial imbalances will be the deciding factor in Soulstorm (since said imbalances are rather thin). You'll often hear "unit X is imba" from people who were just beaten by that unit in their latest match.

[HouseofTehDead]

Rofl at people complaining about IG being crap in the lobby. These are the same people who have never researched weap spec, then thrown two squads of 8 GM each, with 1 sergeant, 2 GL's, 3 Plasma guns, and a commie into a chim, then unloaded the bunch into a firefight, popped one execute at a time, and watched the brave GM get back more than thrice their cost in res. It's not terribly easy, and it's definitely not like dropping an orb relay full of terms and dreads into an enemy base, but they're certainly not crap.

Still, when I first started playing DOW, I complained because Dark Reapers didn't kill Tac Marines in one shot.

Edit: After reading the posts from the entire thread, allow me a caveat. You're speaking about early game, and I'm lecturing about midgame. Forgive me, but the themes I brought up still apply. You don't need the commie's execute to double your GM damage when you have decent commander damage, excellent disruption (via nades via the tactica) and a manageable mass, all in t1 from your GM. Your GM are up to almost any early game task with a reasonable amount of micro: you just need to decide which strengths you should maximize and which strengths you are wasting your resources on early on. Of course, this is both map and opponent dependent.

Plus above poster was right- if you're playing vs Eldar in auto, you better hope I'm on the Eldar side otherwise you can probably kiss your ass goodbye.