R.E.A.R.M. -alpha 0.0.3c

[GBscientist]

Pouk, I'm very impressed with all the work you've put into this mod. I've already downloaded it and played a couple rounds with the AI and it kicked my butt, probably because there's no effective counter to the swarms of missiles the Vaygr kick out.

I have several suggestions that I'd like to put forward:

First, I've read the whole REARM thread and I can propose some solutions to your English translation issues. An Outpost is a temporary fortified position, usually built of dirt or sand-bags, with a very small staff. I think the term that would better suit the smaller Vaygr battlestations you want to build is a Border Fort. A fort is a permenant fortification, built of stone, dirt, and concrete, and armed with cannons and artillery. A Fortress would better describe a larger Hiigaran battlestation, ideally one with the capacity to build ships because a fortress is the proper term for a fortified city.

Second, I have a proposal for how you could differentiate Dreadnaughts from Battleships. The word 'Dreadnaught' is a rather archaic term that means 'fears nothing'. It would be appropriate, then, if Dreadnaughts were Battleships specifically designed to destroy other Battleships.

Third, I have a couple of suggestions for Hiigaran frigates when you get around to them. I think the Hiigarans would benefit from a proper Assault Frigate armed with a pair of KE turrets (I would make them single-gun turrets, rather than the double-gun turrets used on destroyers). Also, your impressive Swarmer video shows that you've pretty much got swarm attacks programmed, so I propose that your new Drone frigate be granted a buildable module that would give it a pair of forward-firing KE guns and swarmer-style drones so that it can act like the Hive frigate in Cataclysm.

Finally, I can't figure out what the purpose is in having two types of KE and artillery turrets for the Modular Destoryer. Why not just use one turret of each type?

I hope these ideas are helpful.

[Pouk]

Hi, thanks for the feedback.

-Vaygr may be too strong, but at this time it's because they are ahead from others because they are by far my favorite race.

-I like fort. I think you know that my English knowledge isn't good enough to recognize a proper word for some things, so any suggestions are appreciated.

-Dreadnaughts/Battleships. I didn't know the Dreadnaught is archaic, but I think it's fine to use that name since they have one Dreadnaught in singleplayer. Problem is that there won't be enough Dreadnaughts and Battleships to say one is designed to destroy another. What I had on mind is that Battleship will be able to build a few units, something like if Dreadnaught would be large BC and Battleship large Supercarrier.

Drone frigate could have something Cata, only problem is the coding behind it. But in a basic variant it should work like HW1 Drone frigate. But why would it have for forward kinetic guns?

It's not complicated. Artillery turrets are obvious, each works totally differently and have a different effect. The LC kinetic turret is a high damage turret for early games, until player gets the ion turrets or torpedo turrets.

[Hangman4358]

so i was thinking about this for a bit and i was wondering if this is even possible.

Could it be possible to have missiles have a health and be killed by say flak? and also, would it be possible for destroyers with flak modules have the ability to throw up flak screens. Kind of like in BSG to stop missiles.

But I also want to say the swarmers are really cool and I can see how a Flak destroyer or two are a perfect counter for the higarrans but what about for the vagar

[GBscientist]

-Dreadnaughts/Battleships. I didn't know the Dreadnaught is archaic, but I think it's fine to use that name since they have one Dreadnaught in singleplayer. Problem is that there won't be enough Dreadnaughts and Battleships to say one is designed to destroy another. What I had on mind is that Battleship will be able to build a few units, something like if Dreadnaught would be large BC and Battleship large Supercarrier.

The word 'Dreadnaught' is a bit archaic because most people don't know what it means anymore. Specifically, nobody uses the word 'naught', which means nothing, unless they are trying to sound old-fashioned.

Your plan to distinguish between Dreadnaughts and Battleships sound like a fine idea. I think it would work particularly well if they were both about the same size and the Battleship had roughly the same amount of guns as a Battlecruiser and the Dreadnaught had even more.

Drone frigate could have something Cata, only problem is the coding behind it. But in a basic variant it should work like HW1 Drone frigate. But why would it have for forward kinetic guns?

The drone frigate in Cataclysm had forward-firing KE guns, so I thought the swarmer mode for your drone frigate should have the same. The KE guns allow the frigate to help the drones take down their target, which was important in Cataclysm because the drone frigate had only 6 swarmers (but it could replace destroyed ones). Basically, a drone frigate with swarmers and KE guns is used to attack and one with regular drones is used to defend.

You didn't comment on my idea of a frigate with regular KE turrets instead of flak.

Anyway, thanks for considering my suggestions.

[Pouk]

Hangman4358:
-It is possible for flaks to shoot down missiles and there maybe will be anti-missile flaks in the future.
-It is possible to have special attacks, so after pressing a Z key you can have a large flak salvo, the question is how to make them explode before reaching the target in a specific distance.
-Vaygr don't have much against Swarmers, but they are not defenceless. They can use advanced assault frigates or anti-fighter minetraps (which will work great).

GBscientist:
-To be honest I still don't have a clear idea about Dreadnaughts and Battleships. I try to wright down all the specific of both classes and I have some idea, but there's still something missing.

-Well, this drone frigate will have a pretty powerfull drone sphere around it and the Cata drones will be just a secondary function. As I said, the main inspiration is HW1 Puppeteer. But maybe there'll be something like Hive frigate as well.

-Yes, something like proper Kinetic frigate will definitelly be there, but I'm not working on Hiigaran frigates yet.

[GBscientist]

Pouk I understand that REARM still has a long way to go before it is complete and that no-one can commit all of their time to working on a mod. Thank you for your efforsts so far and for listening to my suggestions.

[GBscientist]

Pouk, after playing around some more with REARM I have a couple more requests/suggestions for you to consider.

1) A Modular Battlecruiser would be awesome.

I imagine the big ion cannon turrets being one type of slot, the kinetic turrets a second type, and the fighter bay being a third type of slot. The ion cannon slot could also mount artillery turrets, for instance. The kinetic turret slots could mount any of the modular destroyer's weapon turret modules. The fighter bay module is where things get interesting because it could be filled by the normal fighter bay, a big missile battery, or two more big ion turrets (one on each side of the ship). The Modular Battlecruiser would retain the two system module slots found on the regular Battlecruiser.

The Modular Battlecruiser, when fitted with as many ion cannons as it could carry, would probably cause enough damage that you don't need a special Battleship design.

2) A Modular Cruiser based on the model of the Crew Transports from single-player Mission 2. FX mod (and probably several others) have already used this model as the base for a Cruiser design, but I suggest doing it differently for REARM.

The FX mod Light Cruiser is built aboard the Mothership or a Shipyard, I would make it only built at the Shipyard to make the Shipyard more useful.

For weapons, the FX Light Cruiser has 6 kinetic turrets (3 on top and 3 on the bottom), a system module slot, and one modular turret slot that can carry a flak turret or an ion turret. For a REARM Cruiser, I suggest using 4 turret slots (2 on top and 2 on the bottom) each capable of carrying any of the weapons from the Modular Destroyer's turret slots, a system module slot, and 4 of those nose weapon slots you put on the Modular Destroyer, but mount them 2 on each side of the Cruiser. This weapon arrangement would make the Cruiser better able to defend itself than a Destroyer, while making it less offensively capable than the Battlecruiser.

[Pouk]

1) There'll surely be an advanced BC, some also might be modular, yeah why not.
Docking bay thing won't be possible (as far as I know).
And any form of modular BC (if there'll be one, I don't know yet) won't be in any way an excuse for avoiding the battleships.
What will be there for sure is the partially modular light cruiser.

2) This is really not the way the things work here. No chance of using the crew transport as a modified combat ship, never, sorry. Don't you know I don't do such things?



And people, there's something you might be interested in:

R.A.D.A.R. -REARM Analysis Diagram And Review

You can try it here.

It is a little flash thing for the ship comparison, here is a screenshot:



The down-left circles are showing the sensor range (the brighter field), the weapon ranges and fire arcs. The color of the arc/cone represent the damage of the weapon as well (- for example the red field in the battlecruiser image is the area covered by both turrets).

The thing is still a WIP and I will also have to find a way how to get the images into some gallery in the game main menu. (I know the comparison thing won't be possible in HW2, but at least the single images should get in game, any help very appreciated).

The missing ships will be added, but there are already almost 30 units to look at.

[GBscientist]

If you don't want to recycle the Transport hull, that's fine with me, as long as you've got some sort of Cruiser to fill the size gap between the Destroyer and the Battlecruiser.

My suggestions for more Modular capital ships was based on the idea that you could differentiate the Hiigarans from the Vaygr by giving the Hiigarans more Modular ships that could fill many roles while the Vaygr have many specialised ships.

[constermonster]

doesnt the modular destroyer already fill that gap though? With the game in its current form, i beleive there is meant to be a relatively large gap there - its one of the game's integral gameplay mechanics IMO

[Pouk]

GBscientist: There will be a difference between Vaygr and Hiigaran modular ships. Hiigaran will have more choice, more slots, more modular ships in general. Vaygr will have them as well, but the modules you build will be permanent in most cases .

constermonster: Well it does in a way, but it mostly just upgrades the destroyer. My oppinion is that as long as you manage to keep a reasonable unit caps with it, the gap can be filled. Obviosly it can't be a super heavy destoryer, it would just ruin the game, but it can be a cheaper early light cruiser, or a new class with very limited unit cap.

[GBscientist]

Pouk, I think the best way to keep the Light Cruiser from becoming a Super Heavy Destroyer is to make it available only from the Shipyard, rather than the Mothership or Supercarrier.

[jkberna]

R. A. D. A. R.
It's really cool, but you should make it a bit smaller, i'm at 1360*768 and i still have to scroll sideways.

[MacModder]

RADAR should be smaller.

Just be careful: Every extraordinary capship you add takes away from the strikecraft and frigates. Also keep in mind that many players don't have time to add module after module in the heat of battle.

[sudazima]

awesome pouk! and nevar make it smaller, moar resolution is bettar! =) (low res = no-res!)

only thing is that the firing arc of two overlapping weapons is sometimes hard to see, the greens dont differ much but otherwise its just very cool.

[Pouk]

GBscientist: Who ever said it would be buildable from Supercarrier or MS? Why would you think anyone would consider it?

jkberna, MacModder: I thought most of the today's monitors aren't under 19". You know 15" is tiny, 17" is still small, I think for today's standards 1300 and something pixels is not that big. I may be over 300px bigger for netbooks and that's understandable, but in general... Hmm, what do you think is about the right size? 1200px?

MacModder: 1) Yeah I know.
2) Every time I say something in reply to an extreme solution, someone else will come up with telling me to be careful about the opposite extreme of it. Look I'm not stupid and even there is a crazy modular destroyer, believe me it's me who keeps the number of modular ship reasonable. People keep telling me how many modular ships they want, how much they need the sixth slot on the destroyer and sometimes I feel like I'm the only one thinking about the actual level of micromanagement with all these ideas. So by Vaygr modular ships and Hiigaran modular ships I don't mean a fleets of them, but some particular units.

And with the Hiigaran modular destroyer I count on the simple system. Yes, it might look complicated at first, but as soon as you know the weapons it's very easy and clear. I could name a mod (which I won't do) where I was confused with much less buildable weapons than in here.

This reply probably sounds a lot defensive, but it just looks that way, it's not a big deal. The point of it is "please have a little faith. The core idea of this mod is not to go crazy, but blend into the game like it belongs there. I didn't forget that."

sudazima: Thanks man. Looks like you're the only one here thinking the resolution is fine. I hope more people will share you're opinion, because I'm not sure what different layout I would choose (or would be capable to edit, since I'm really just a beginner in flash).

Yes, the green is a problem. I'm starting at 0,255,0 and ending at 255,0,0, but most of the ships are in the green spectrum. Only BCs are up in red, because of the earlier discussed large gap in between DD and BC.

[GBscientist]

GBscientist: Who ever said it would be buildable from Supercarrier or MS? Why would you think anyone would consider it?

I have seen other mods (FX for instance) make a Light Cruiser buildable by the Mothership. That makes it too easy and too cheap to get. I'm glad you agree that the Shipyard needs to have a couple more exclusive designs to make it useful.

[Pouk]

Yes I totally agree.

[mololu]

I really like the flash thingy you cooked up there! Looks pretty impressive and as for resolution, I think 19" is the average you can expect people to have on your standard home PC today.

Most people are already over that - unless you're on a laptop. But a laptop user has to accept that he's not using a full PC and thus should be willing to accept some loss in that region (then again, most laptops have a fairly high native resolution these days).

I can also feel your pain about micro and modular ships. I've been struggling with not overcomplicating my own gameplay while still keeping the number of ships acceptable to make the game interesting. Particularly during my latest additions I've been running across micro issues more and more.

The more complex the game plays (more ships, more functions, more anything really) the simpler some things have to become or managing it all in a huge battle becomes a nightmare and kills the fun of an otherwise good game.

I also know that most people keep saying more - more - more - withoug really giving it much though. This is understandable. Modular ships are fun. They add to gameplay and they allow you to make choices. However from the point of a developer, such features are a nightmare - both to balance and to keep in moderation.

Pouk, I support your sentiment and while you may be on the defensive a little, that is understandable. You are the one who decides how your mod progresses and to be honest you probably know what will fit best of anyone. Of course other oppinions should be accepted or asked for but I'd like to remind everyone that a single mod can not do everything!

If Pouk is anywhere near the situation I'm in - and I suppose he is, running a mod as a one man show - he's already in way over his head in things to do and add and tweak and and and. There has to be a limit somewhere - give it time. There's always a 'later' when ideas can be implemented.

[GBscientist]

I appreciate what you're saying, mololu, so I want Pouk to know that when I post suggestions, I don't mean to put any pressure on him, I'm just throwing out my opinion after play-testing and trying to provide him with more options. That said, after playing a round last night, I have a pair of new ideas to suggest.

First, how about creating a multi-purpose platform? You already have the triple platform models created, so you could use them to make a platform with more than one kind of weapon. I suggest a platform with ion turrets in the middle and gun turrets at both ends for the Hiigarans and a platform with missile launchers in the middle and gun turrets at both ends for the Vaygr. That would make planning platform deployments a lot simpler for me.

Second, have you considered the possibility of making a frigate that builds platforms? Perhaps it could also build probes. You could either add this function to a Vaygr Support Frigate or Hiigaran Drone Frigate, or just create a new model.

[Kalamain]

The carrier fills that role. It can create probes/platforms and is available early on.

Not sure the point in a dedicated frigate for that.

But its a good idea in principle.

[Pouk]

mololu:
Very true.

GBscientist:
-Ok

-Oh yes I thought about it once. But I was affraid of too many units. They already have 8 platforms.

-

Perhaps it could also build probes. You could either add this function to a Vaygr Support Frigate...

Support Frigate, Drone Frigate? No, Drone frigate will build some interesting things, but not probes or platforms. Plus on the Vaygr side you already have two frigates capable of building probes and one frigate capable of building mine traps.

[sudazima]

Yes, the green is a problem. I'm starting at 0,255,0 and ending at 255,0,0, but most of the ships are in the green spectrum. Only BCs are up in red, because of the earlier discussed large gap in between DD and BC.

instead of having green the absolute minimum dmg and red the max, you can have it relative to the ship it self: as in red is the area that ship can do max dmg, green is the least dmg it can do. since you can already compare ship vs ships dmg with the dmg slider.

If Pouk is anywhere near the situation I'm in - and I suppose he is, running a mod as a one man show - he's already in way over his head in things to do and add and tweak and and and. There has to be a limit somewhere - give it time. There's always a 'later' when ideas can be implemented.

having things to do, and being in way over your head only get worse with time, trust me
"later" is dangerous as you may not have the time or the will to do it later.

[mololu]

What I'm saying is that with no time, putting on more pressure to do this or that doesn't help. It just makes it worse. You don't have the time anyways.

The best solution is to make a list of things you'd want to do, then reduce it down to the best ideas (can be a bit tricky) and stick to the plan of 'best ideas' to implement which you can periodically update.

I would hate to see REARM as a mod come to a standstill because of the sheer number of things that need to be done! I think respecting the wonderful work Pouk has done so far and continues to do is key here. As I have found out first hand, a lot of work goes into this kind of quality and that in return costs time.

Sorry for going OT - back to the REARM discussion:

On the platforms thing, couldn't you make the platforms modular or is that overkilling?

Then you'd have one base platform with the ability to build turrets on it. Sure, if you have three dozen platforms on the map that will mean a lot of building - so maybe not the best idea...

This is exactly the micromanagement problem Pouk was talking about before it seems. Maybe the best solution there is to just leave it as is.

[GBscientist]

I personally think that a multi-purpose platform (as I described it) would be more useful than a double platform of any one weapon. On the other hand, triple platforms in general might be overkill. For instance, I never see the AI using them.

EDIT for more ideas:

Pouk, I was reading the forums of the Complex Mod and they had an interesting point brought up: Ships bigger than a Battlecruiser won't get used much because they're just too expensive and take to long to research. It may be worth considering not making Battleships at all.

I also spotted a couple of interesting ship types that I'd like to suggest for inclusion in REARM.

1) A Vaygr Heavy Carrier. Basically, this would be the Vaygr equivalent of the standard Hiigaran Carrier; capable of carrying a fighter, corvette, and frigate facility simultaneously. This may be unneccessary if you decide to do a Vaygr Supercarrier, though.

2) A Hiigaran Escort Carrier. This would be a Hiigaran equivalent to the standard Vaygr Carrier except that the only building sub-system that it could make would be the Fighter Facility and it would only have one slot for Upgrade Modules. The Escort Carrier would provide a cheaper unit to escort attack groups for strikecraft to dock at so that expensive Carriers are not endangered. It would also be a cheaper alternative to send to build platforms when equipped with a Platform Control Module. It's build list would also be restricted from building Resource Processors.

I hope you consider these suggestions helpful.

[Pouk]

sudazima:
Yeah I know, I could choose one way or another and I chose this. It would be really good the way you say it if you really wanted to know the ship's blind spots, but on the other hand most of the ships would be in red. I wanted the diagram to say everything from range to angles to damage. If it was relative it would miss the damage information.

I have a lot going on right now, but I still can manage it. Also, it seems that "later" exist in REARM, for example now I've made the engines for MDD, as you can see at the end of this post. And it's about a month old topic I believe.

Mololu:
As I said I'm still managing it, but thanks for your support. And yeah, I have some kind of list, but it's never a solid plan, my priorities changes over time. I have a solid plan for next big release though.

Modular platforms, I would need to really think about it. I don't know, maybe under some deep research.
About the topic of micromanagement:
DD and MDD. The first idea was to make the Modular Destroyer as a equal alternative to Destroyer. Problem is, that even the MDD components are very expensive, I don't build normal Destroyers anymore and I also don't want to lower the MDD damages and abilities down. After all it's not that bad, at best it can do only about 40% more damage than Destroyer for the price of small Battlecruiser, so not really anything to complain about.
Still, I can balance it with another Destroyer which won't be modular, but does some decent damage, so people can actually choose the level of micromanagement again, not to be forced to use MDDs.
And the same can be done with modular platforms. If there'll ever be some, the better be only double, not triple platforms. So you won't be forced to use them just because their damage.

GBscientist:
Yeah exactly, triple would be overkill. Also AI uses them, all the time.

And yes, ships bigger than BC probably won't be built too often and yes, they'll also be more expensive and more complicated to get. That is all true. But none of it will spoil it to me, that's exactly what I want, more rare they are, more interesting they are and just maybe more feared they might be. The thing is that I don't mind making something which won't be widely used, because it adds a variety into the mod.
Also, you're keep convincing to not make the larger ships, please stop that.

a) There will be Vaygr Supercarrier and I'm not planning to give normal Vaygr Carriers more than 2 facilities at once (I'm saying 2, because although it's very unlikely to give them more than one, it's not completely impossible).

b) Under some deeper research maybe yes, but I don't want to give Hiigarans the cheap carriers in early game at all. But they'll surely get some combat carrier with probably 2 facility slots and some weapons. Thing is, that cheap building should stay in Vaygr hands, for Hiigarans I have planned carrier used for strikecraft support and defense.


Engines for MDD:

[GBscientist]

Pouk, are those new engines on the MDD the modular engine pod, or are they a permenant part of the ship?

I know that I won't change your mind, but I would like to point out that combat carriers were tried In Real Life and found to be rather ineffective. A good carrier should never get into weapon range of its enemies because that it what its strikecraft are for. If you think of a combat carrier as more of a cruiser or battleship, on the other hand, the aircraft handling facilities that a carrier needs (flight deck, hangars, etc) take up space that could be better used for more guns or missiles. Finally, a combat carrier just seems more of a Vaygr thing to me than a Hiigaran thing.

[Pouk]

It's a module buildable on the bottom weapon slot.

Interesting point, I'll keep that on my mind. But still, there is a hunger for combat carriers in Homeworld, so I'll make something anyway. But I'll try to make the build capacity/weapons ratio reasonable.

[tadamir]

Looks great as always Pouk, I like the texture around the nose a lot.
I know it's not the point of the picture but I even like the weapons load-out you've chosen there; Generalist but looks deadly.

The only thing I could suggest to possibly improve it would be to have that Stripe texture from the Main Engine armouring placed on the bevel around the extra engines.
That Stripe texture has always said 'Hiigaran Engines'.... to me anyway.


-p.s. GBscientist, Hi.
If we started worrying about Real Life comparisons, the whole Mod would be paralyzed.
The original makers didn't let RL comparisons hamper them from creating enjoyable gameplay, and I hope that's where Pouk keeps his focus, not on any impossible attempt at making HW2 Real. It is Sci-Fi after all.

[KeyBored]

Pouk, it would be cool if the engines at the bottom joined up with the body at the bottom of the desty, to the front of the engine module with a straight line, so you get a triangular shape, if you know what i mean

[GBscientist]

tadamir said:

-p.s. GBscientist, Hi. If we started worrying about Real Life comparisons, the whole Mod would be paralyzed. The original makers didn't let RL comparisons hamper them from creating enjoyable gameplay, and I hope that's where Pouk keeps his focus, not on any impossible attempt at making HW2 Real. It is Sci-Fi after all.

tadamir, I agree that this is a game and doesn't have to follow RL that closely, but I think that people are going to find a Combat Carrier not as useful as they think it will be. Now, that could be mitigated somewhat if the armament of the Combat Carrier is defensive rather than offensive. For instance, some flak cannons or KE guns would not be too problematic, but ion cannons would tempt players to put the Combat Carrier in combat situations it will never survive.

[Pouk]

tadamir:
Ok I can do that, I will.

KeyBored:
I think I know what you mean, but this shape is final, I like it the way it is.

GBscientist:
Then they will learn it the hard way. But I can give player a hint by placing the weapons in a typically defensive configuration -turrets on the sides and around the body, not fixed forward weapons. Or just say it in the description. For Hiigarans anyway.
What we certainly don't want is carrier to actually survive on its own, so they'll better learn it somehow.

[mololu]

I think what defines an assault carrier from a carrier is the following:

Carrier = Utility support ship, kept well out of combat and used as a mobile base.

Assault Carrier = Combat support ship, kept near but not at the front to support ships as needed. Can hold its own against minimal enemy forces.

The second case is how my raider attack carrier works before you give it a weapons module and it works pretty well.

You can move it into combat if you need some additional firepower and out if the enemy is bringing up too many heavy guns. It's a thing of player intelligence and of micro but I'd assume your run of the mill RTS player can grasp that concept.

[aquemnun]

I dont know quite why, but seeing those extra engines makes me want to see like a big, keel mounted ion cannon or ram to take up the torpedo slot. Probably not going to happen though due to the amount of scripting both would require (1 to ram and cause damage and the other to change attack styles on building said subsystem).

Looking very good so far though pouk. I look forward to seeing what kind of things you do when you make other ships modifyable like the vaygr destroyer or something.

[Admiral Nelson]

I don't know what everyone's problem is. I've always found the battlecruisers to be a perfectly fine "combat carrier". I will sometimes pull in a carrier for quick reinforcements, but the transit time for fighters, corvettes, and frigates (everything I usually need to reinforce) is small enough that I keep my CV's back about 10-15km from the battle, except in the early game. If I ever have to reinforce with capitals, I hyper them in.

[tadamir]

-Pouk, thanks! I think it's an improvement, just from the video on ModDB.

-mololu, I'd agree with your summary

-GBscientist,
You have a good point, for the Hiigarans I definitely use the Supercarrier as the core of my main fleet and it gets sent into the middle of the battle.
I think I'd use an Assualt Carrier/Attack Carrier/Heavy Carrier/whatever a little more warily though, at the rear of my main force anyway.
Vanilla Carriers went down so quickly if you left them exposed at all that I think it would be hard for most players to un-train that wariness with new Carriers.
I'm keen to find out though

[Pouk]

Also, real aircraft carriers are the largest ships of the fleet. Not that the HW2 Carrier would be small, but it's not large either, so what about making Supercarrier sized Carrier -without the powerful weapons, without the Destroyer facility, but heavy enough to actually withstand more fire.
You may say it would have to be more expensive and who would want to pay for ship buildable only from shipyard with inferior weapons, that's all true. But think about it:
-it's bigger and it obviously doesn't carry anti capital weaponry. No one will mistake it with the combat vessel and at the same time everyone will know that this thing can survive some battle.
-it's not Supercarrier, it's not in the same class so you could build more of them and they'll use up the Carrier caps, not the Supercarrier caps.
-it's very Hiigaran, it makes sense to me for them.


And the video Tadamir was talking about, finally uploaded to youtube youtube.

[tadamir]

I like that idea Pouk, it seems quite Hiigaran to me too.

I'd imagine such an Assault Carrier designed for maximal thru-put of Strikecraft too; really clean and clear dockpaths so damaged craft can zip thru the thing, get repaired and get back to the battle quickly, and protected by it's own decent weapons and armour.
-Assault Carrier pumping out replacement Strikecraft and Corvettes directly into battle, while repairing those already in the fray.
-The Supercarrier is pumping out Destroyers and Frigates.
-Larger Capships get Hypered-in.

Huh, writing this made me think; if I don't build a Corvette Production facility on my Supercarrier now because I've got a couple of Assault Carriers covering that...
what could I build on that spot instead?
"More offensive weaponry" was what came to mind.
While bearing in mind that neither of us want any over-the-top, turrets-bristling-all-over-every-ship sort of nonsense, what could/would be appropriate?
A medium missile battery is an obvious choice, but not very Hgn.

Anyway, just thinking out loud, you may not want to...complicate the Supercarrier any further and that would be fair enough.

[LeviathansWrath]

maybe not missile but how about a torpedo battery?

[tadamir]

Yeah, good point, I kinda forget sometimes that Torpedoes are to the Hgn's what Missiles are to the Vgr.
Maybe a four-torpedo launcher battery? Cluster Torps.
Sticking off to one side as the Corvette facility does makes me think 'non-line of sight' weaponry anyway, so the Torps fire off the side in one direction but then can travel under/over the SupCarrier to engage targets opposite?

Anyway, this is all just imaginings, Pouk may not want to do anything more here.
I don't know what such an idea would do to the build-list...

[Pouk]

You have touched two categories here -Supercarrier weapon subsystems and fleet weapon modules.

-- The Supercarrier additional weapons: They'll be there, it may seem surprising but I actually do plan to include weapons on the production slot for Supercarrier.
But there's one big "but":
You know how I love to give ships the weaknesses, how I love to force people to choose some compromise and how I'll never make the ultimate killing machine. You may not like my aproach here at all, but ask yourself the question: What subsystem you need less? In your case the Corvette facility. What subsystem you need most? I've guessed, the destroyer facility... Yes, I'm sorry, it may be painfull but I'll do it for the destroyer production slot. Vaygr will have replaceable the strikecrafts slots.
There are two factors you can observe about it, I know about them but I chose it this way. The factors are:
1. I'm gonna give them the exact opposite to what they need. Hiigarans need to build the destroyers, with this solution they can't, but Vaygr will build them. It seems illogical and almost like I'm pushing the player to build the strikecrafts if he's Hiigaran and DDs if he's Vaygr. This is the downside of it.
2. The ship won't ever be perfect. And I do see it as a good thing. I really don't want Hiigaran Supercarrier to spawn destroyer after destroyer and do even more damage at the same time. I want you to choose what you want, I want you to know that you can't have both. Nothing is perfect in real life and nothing is perfect in "my version of Homeworld" (at least I'm trying, the Supercarrier is pretty deadly already).


-- The general weapon modules. Weapons for facilities slots? Weapons for module slots? There might be something, but not untill I'll completelly analyze all the possibilities and consequences. I definitelly won't have them until I'll know how will it affect the gameplay. Could the Vaygr Carrier shoot Heavy Fusion Missiles out of his facility slot? Could the Hiigaran BC have small ion turrets instead of modules? I don't know yet. And as I said, definitelly not until I'll think this trough. I have really no problem with not doing it at all.

[GBscientist]

If you are planning a weapon module for the Supercarrier in the Destroyer Facility slot, then why do you need a Supercarrier-sized Assault Carrier? A Supercarrier with weapons instead of Destroyer production is an Assault Carrier.

EDIT: After watching that video I am really looking forward to you next release!

[MacModder]

The ship won't ever be perfect

Clap. Clap. Clap. >Riotous applause<
Just saw the video..
Clap. Clap. Clap. >Riotous applause<
I have a few ideas to share. Seeing your extra engine module suggests to me that you might need more thrust to haul heavy turrets into the battle-field. Modules could have a speed penalty except for the engine module which does the opposite. An interesting side effect of that is that regular destroyers would be able to outrun beefy modular DDs.
With all these modules around, it might be a good idea to slightly increase the bombers' anti-subsystem damage. After all, they've gone from targeting one module on a vanilla DD to half a dozen on the MDD.

[adamstrange]

Hey Pouk, do those bottom engines light up just like the rear engines ?

[Pouk]

GBscientist: In the post I said I don't need anymore, I'd like to have the Supercarrier sized carrier, yes, but without powerful weapons.

MacModder: Negative speed effect? Yeah, definitelly a good idea. I'll look what modules could have such attribute and I'll do it.
Bomber's damage -maybe. I would rather solve the subsystem problem some other way, maybe dedicated anti-sub bombers, I don't know. But I may do it, I'll see.

adamstrange: No I don't know how to make them light up, they are just all time glowing subsystem with the multiplier, nothing else. They don't have the engine glow nor the engine shader. I decided to have them on all the time rather than having them off.

[GBscientist]

Pouk, I must have misread your post about Supercarriers and weapon modules. I do have one suggestion regarding the Assault Carrier: make it similar in size to the standard Carrier, but only give it the ability to make fighters and corvettes to balance the presence of weapons. Cutting its docking capacity would also help balance it.

[Pouk]

Defense Field Module Animation
Simple trick to make subsystem to look like they are animated.

Great thanks to CFHodEd 4, it's so much easier now.

[mololu]

Congrats

looks nice

CFHE4 is really a godsend^^

Edit: did you find a way to animate a subsystem? Or is this the joint on the main ship which is animated? I've had no luck with the former.

[constermonster]

that's really quite something - esp nice cuz the folding panels look high-tech, but not delicate, rly very cool

[Pouk]

The animation is still in the ship, it only plays in the presence of the subsystem.