It's Official: Dawn of War 2 Expansion - Chaos Rising

[The Voltr0n]

Can anyone help me out with this question.. As an estimate does anyone know if chaos will follow marines cost for example tacs - 500 req / chaos tacs - 500 req ?

chaos marines will either come in squads of three, weaker than normal sm's and they will cost less 350 or so, or they will come in squads of five, costing 500 but weaker in the sense the members die of easily.

it all depends on what relic wants, in dow1 they were more numerous but just as costly, being that CSM don't have the same advantages as Tactical SM's, ie. they can't take advantage of the life support systems and arn't as focused. I just hope there are some large differences between space marines and CSM's

[HarleyN95]

Ah, i thought they would be slightly less as there army list so far is pretty big . Thanks for the reply.

[The Voltr0n]

Depends, they could give CSM a completely different role, for instance the ability to upgrade to a heavy bolter instead and missle launcher instead of plasma or flamer.

Personally i would like the CSM's to have the same role as dow1, which pretty much mimics space marines, i like it that way... afterall they are just Space Marines, except corrupt right?

[glenn3e]

chaos marines will either come in squads of three, weaker than normal sm's and they will cost less 350 or so, or they will come in squads of five, costing 500 but weaker in the sense the members die of easily.

Oh please, Chaos marines are NOT weaker than normal marines, especially not to the point that 3 SM equal 5 CSM. Having thousands of years of experience and powers of the warp is hardly something to diss at. If anything, they should be better than standard marines, the only downside for them being their equipment is outdated.

[stranger]

Do I need to dig up comments from the first 10 pages? CSMs are not thousands of years old, and their equipment is not outdated. That said, they are not weaker than loyalists either. If anything, I'd see them being initialy two to squad to the marines three, if only for the increased utility of having an actual melee weapon worth a damn (want to know where that came from, check the most recent csm codex).

[The Voltr0n]

hey hey hey, i'm just remembering the DOW1 days, if i remember correctly that is chaos space marines did have more squad members... i was just talking in reference to relics past work not any codex

[CommissarRezail]

Actualy some csm are 1000 years old and older, Take Eiphias for example. He was alive since the heresy.

[Akagi_Ryu]

@The Voltr0n: Yeah and that sucked

I mean, outdated equipment or no, who do you thing is stronger, a genetically enchanced space marine, OR a genetically enchanced space marine who is effected and possibly mutated by the warp.

If anything they're pretty equal if not stronger, but definitely not weaker.

[Kharrak]

Well, where Chaos Space Marines have Warp Corruption, loyalist Space marines have Faith, so it balances out more or less.

[stranger]

Actualy some csm are 1000 years old and older, Take Eiphias for example. He was alive since the heresy.

So is lucius, kharn, abaddon, fabius, ahriman and a plenthora of others (though that's all in material time, warp time's kinda wonky, sometimes can even travel backwards) that all seem to have in common one thing- they're usualy the ones giving orders, not taking them. Unless we take the rubric automata, but that's a special case...
And mutations are a bit of a hit and miss, you might get a wicked claw, you might start growing toes under your armpits. Generaly, again, the ones visibly empowered by mutations over the SM level are the higher echelons. So I think we can saftely establish the CSM won't be that much stronger than their non spiky counterparts...

[Deacon412]

i guess we shall just have to wait and find out

[Pocktio]

Do I need to dig up comments from the first 10 pages? CSMs are not thousands of years old, and their equipment is not outdated. That said, they are not weaker than loyalists either. If anything, I'd see them being initialy two to squad to the marines three, if only for the increased utility of having an actual melee weapon worth a damn (want to know where that came from, check the most recent csm codex)

Depends. There are tons of different CSM. You have those fighting the Long Warthen you have newer CSM like renegades and the products of those legions still functioning with some cohesion, like the Word Bearers.

A lot of their equipment is outdated but then with so many CSM running around there are always exceptions. I think the way to look at it is that Loyalist marines will simply always have newer and better equipment so with regards to Imperials CHaos weaponry is usually out of date.

Also not all CSM are positively buoyed by the Warp. The warp sustains them as a new type of life force but it's not going to make them stronger faster or better equipped than loyalist marines. Once again there are exceptions. Those who fight soley because that's what they are for and those who fight due to hatred of the Imperium or for the glory of the warp. The latter are more likely to be positively enhanced by the warp ¬_¬.

Once again - exceptions.

[stranger]

Depends. There are tons of different CSM. You have those fighting the Long Warthen you have newer CSM like renegades and the products of those legions still functioning with some cohesion, like the Word Bearers.

With the kind of casualty rate a constant warfare on daemon worlds generates, not to mention twelve failed and one largerly unconclusive black crusade, it is unlikely much of the original legions still consist of the great crusaders. And since the legions do have means of producing new marines, I think the old ones are the exceptions

About the equipment, the newest type of marine armor is 6 millenia old. The bolter pattern is 4. Unless a warband have been stuck in warp for the last 9-10 millenia, they'd have ample time to loot and salvage enough equipment to keep it up to date methinks. Unless it's of ceremonial value.

[FooF]

Concerning squad sizes for CSM: my guess is it will still be 3+Sgt. The whole idea about Chaos is that they're pound-for-pound as good as SM. I do fully expect them to be better at melee versus Tacs either naturally or via upgrade.

That said, from a balance perspective, I see them having less HP. If Tacs have 1050, my guess is that CSM would have 900. They'd tear up Tacs in melee and be competitive against existing T1 melee but lose in a shootout and be less survivable overall. Greater DPS instead of greater HP. Cost-wise, pretty similar, though CSM might actually be 550 (or have a base cost of 500 + 50/20 melee upgrade) because they're proficient at both ranged and melee.

If they go the route of having a melee CSM and a Ranged CSM troop choice, all this goes out the window. My guess is still having 3 per Squad but the melee choice would be 450 while the Ranged would be 500.

All speculation, of course, but trying to differentiate CSM from Tacs will be needed to squelch all the "it's a mirror!" stuff.

[Aliblabla]

In fluff CSMs are slightly tougher and stronger on a one-for-one basis, but they're not as good at tactical prowess or teamwork or patience or whatnot (though it depends on what kind of CSM it is).

Not sure how that would be represented in the game.

[CommissarRezail]

Well, in dow 1, Csm had better melee damage then loyal marines, kinda make since with warp strength in them.

[Carl]

@Stranger: There's strong evidance that quite a few CSM are getting brought back to life by the chaos gods.

On top of that the last time ui looked at the fluff. Anyone who is considered a legion member IS one of the originols.

They may not make up all the CSM out there, or even necesserily the majority. But theres still plenty of them and they're still not ultra rare.

hats why the current CSM dex put so many TT noses out of joint. It really focused on the random newb renegade marines and serverly ignored the numerous HH era contingent of Chaos, (on top of seperating deamons out from CSM, thats just stupid). More than a few chaos players simply stopped playing chaos BECAUSE of it.

[stranger]

There's strong evidance that quite a few CSM are getting brought back to life by the chaos gods.

Yes, and they were grand champions of their respective gods, having slain, brought to despair or otherwise embraced the teachings of one of the gods to the max. There is Kharn, ressurected by khorne for slaying an ungodly amount of victims during the palace siege, and there is lucius, being reborn for embracing slaanesh excess and perfectionism and leading new victims that managed to slay him down this path. That's it. You don't see joe the spiky marine getting ressurrected every time he died. Hell, if it's so common, how come Horus isn't back with us?

Anyone who is considered a legion member IS one of the originols.

I'd like you to try to back this up with fluff, I realy do. Should be fun to watch.

[Ruzdreg]

If they go the route of having a melee CSM and a Ranged CSM troop choice, all this goes out the window.

If they aim to include the 4 God legions then they might just add Khorne Bezerkers and make them be Chaos's melee infantry. (Blood Crushers may very well count as vehicles due to the Juggernaught so they'll serve a different role)

[LoneWolf666]

Hell, if it's so common, how come Horus isn't back with us?

That's a separate issue. Chaos gods can bring back whoever they want, but it takes effort to fish a soul from the warp before it dissolves. The thing with Horus is that, when the Emperor defeated him, he not only killed him, he also erased every trace of his soul. In other words, Horus has not been brought back because there is nothing to be brought back.

[glenn3e]

Yes, and they were grand champions of their respective gods, having slain, brought to despair or otherwise embraced the teachings of one of the gods to the max. There is Kharn, ressurected by khorne for slaying an ungodly amount of victims during the palace siege, and there is lucius, being reborn for embracing slaanesh excess and perfectionism and leading new victims that managed to slay him down this path. That's it. You don't see joe the spiky marine getting ressurrected every time he died. Hell, if it's so common, how come Horus isn't back with us?

You want evidence? I give you evidence. Read the Space Wolf novels. One of them has the Thousand sons attempting a ritual to resurrect the dead members of their legion. They succeeded and were on the verge of defeating the space wolves until Ragnar threw the spear of russ at the resurrecting form of Magnus. And they were resurrecting their normal members first before trying to resurrect Magnus.

[CommissarRezail]

Horus, mind, body and soul, was all destroyed... ALL OF IT, his whole existence in the real worldd and warp world was erassed permantely. THere nothing to resurrect... he cannot come back because there is no soul that can bring him back. Nothing, zip nadda, only thing you can do is clone him, but it still won't be pefect clone and it still prolly won't have horus gifts.


NOO what ami doing >.< we are going so far off topic.

[stranger]

Except magnus is not dead? He is dead? When did that happen? Was it after or before he exiled Arhiman from his comfy hell of a daemon world. Regardless, even if we pretend the novels are not a total waste of printing paper (Micro grenades? Come on. And what do you mean by normal members? What's the point of resurecting rubrics), I'm sure every other legion has the necessary knowledge of arcane sorcery to fish out souls that's been claimed by a warp god at the moment of death...

And yes, I've seen the error of my ways and the recent fluff revisionism, we can drop the horus angle now.

NOO what ami doing >.< we are going so far off topic.

Not realy anything to add to this thread at this point, so we might as well indulge ourselves?

[Troubleshooter]

Micro grenades?

/me does his best old man impression

Why back in my day, that's exactly what they were... it explained the lack of nades on the models themselves I think. Fluff trying to explain the TT representation I guess.

Dunno without reading the book, but I agree that the lore always had him as a DP.

[Carl]

Magnus was never dead. The ritual WAS siorta ressurecting ruburics. But it was also intended to pull Magnus through the warp from the EoT to there. At least thats how i understood it.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

They were most probably trying to SUMMON Magnus, as opposed to "Resurrect" him, since he's a Daemon Primarch, and he isn't actually dead.

[glenn3e]

Okay I concede the point of Magnus. But the other CSM were dead marines. So that is resurrecting whether you like it or not.

[FooF]

Guys, we have a Fluff forum. Use it. Back on topic, please.

[The Voltr0n]

I'm not sure, the screens showed some melee chaos units running towards space marines, they might be a completely different unit, or CSM upgraded to deal melee specific damage.

I just look forwards to a media blow out, wallpapers, screen savers, videos... etc.

I'm pretty sure relic will do a great job of the modelling, to make sure it isn't just space marines with spikes.

[Shuma]

We already know they're Space marines with spikes. And you know what? That's exactly what Chaos marines are.

[gorays]

Here's more info from pc gamer,

http://community.dawnofwar2.com/forums/topic/33690

[holyknight]

sounds awesome gorays.
chaos terminators sounds cool, although i never really liked them

[Shuma]

Eh, nothing new really, except for the info on the corruption bar.

[glenn3e]

Slow news day...

[BurnedToast]

It really sounds like it's going to be another SM-only campaign, with chaos only for multiplayer.

That's pretty disappointing to me, I don't really care about SM at all. Sure, we have the corruption meter but unless you can fill it up and automagically turn your guys into CSM and the FC into a CL it's not the same at all.

We were originally going to get an ork and eldar campaign, and that was cut back.... please relic tell me at the very least we can get a chaos campaign for the chaos expansion that's only featuring chaos so you can spend all your time polishing one race and making it good.

[glenn3e]

You came upon a village attacked by orks. What do you do?
a. Kill the orks
b. Save the villagers
c. Cackle with glee since you have the option of levelling the area with OB

One of the Guardsman platoons require immediate rescue. What do you do?
a. Rescue the guardsman
b. Kill whatever is attacking them
c. Cackle with glee since someone will die

A Hive Tyrant is approaching from the east, leading a swarm of tyranids. What do you do?
a. Stealth mission kill the Tyrant
b. Dig up a solid defence and prepare for their waves.
c. Cackle with glee at the upcoming slaughter

[D-seet]

@burnedtoast, Have faith man, i think Relic knows the fans want some other factions in the spotlight too.

My guess is this campaign can goes based on your choices. So somewhere long the road there will be a fork in the road and you'll have to choose between "Za emperah" or the Fell powers. So that way its 2 campaigns with a few of the same intro levels.

I do hope they bring toth back, he would fit right in.

[LoneWolf666]

Good ol' Toth. Whatever happened to him? An inquisitor in DoW2 would be really nice. Since there are these mysterious "NPCs", who knows? PDF/IG/Adeptus Arbitres/an inquisitor, there are a lot of possibilities. Although I'd bet that we'll only see the IG and nothing else...

[Tongue_reaper]

Well well well, so we finally get the Chaos guys... why only one race, I ask thee? Is Relic planning on amassing another 5 expansions, with each one featuring just one new race? And what's with the SM campaign? How longer do we have to keep up with this terror? I hate Space Marines, it all started since they are ALWAYS in the focus of every DoW game, please cut a little on them Relic. I know you guys are proud 'cause you made a chapter which soon became far more popular than even the omnipotent marines of Ultramar, but come ooonnnn. Can't we have a dlc campaign for the sneaky Eldar or the Ork warhunt? How about the Tyranid infestation of one world, just for us to see how you dev's imagine the total corruption of one planet and the biomass gathering from it? Choices, choices... now I don't want to be "bombed back to Stone age" by anyone (and especially fanboys as I'm of their kin), I REALLY appreciate the introduction of Chaos (probably my favorite WH40k army) but if Relic doesn't give us 4 commanders instead of 3 for every army, and one for each god in case of Chaos... I, and probably many besides me, will lose all that was left of interest for this game and probably go back to my dusty suitcase, where my Necrons slumbered since 3 years ago.

[matacucasraid]

Another troll? :P This game is going down.... a pity

[Wildcard84]

About the matter of single vs multiple new races in dow 2 expansions:
Things that take time and resources: First of all, planning (like what units to include, their role and tier, ofc in most cases these are pretty obvious, but still) Modeling the units (to keep true to the pretty high standards of the models, relic needs to spend some time on this area as well), Texturing (pretty much same things apply here than in the modeling process), Animation (This is possibly the most time and resource consuming process, not only do they have to make new kinds of animations BUT also the sync kills for all the old units )

And now, if you want to make 2 races that requires double the time and resources, but the expansion still couldn't cost double the amount..
Also, if relic is taking the story and storytelling methods back to the dow1s roots, 1 race that allows (and is necessary) to tell the tale of blood ravens is completely understandable and even desirable.
My personal opinion is that we dont need another 7 race 'pick your favourite and kill all others' campaign, it just doesnt serve anyone

-Wildcard-

[Kien]

Orks can have this.

[Ifitmovesnukeit]

If they're really squeezing all 4 chaos mini factions into DoW2, differing Daemons, Greater Daemons and all, then I'm not surprised or disappointed that the expansion will only contain Chaos. That's one hell of a tall order.

[glenn3e]

Yeah, since they only have one race, they better make sure there are 4 factions for chaos. Also, make sure the older races have voices recognizing chaos. Also, two new units for each older race. ALso......

[CommissarRezail]

Another ork monstrousty.... O.o big ugly, and prolly kills more of his own people then the enemy..

[Gale_Force15]

It's probably been mentioned already but it's likely that we'll see 5 commanders, one for each god and then an undivided.

[Shuma]

That's not likely at all.

[Pellucid]

Another ork monstrousty.... O.o big ugly, and prolly kills more of his own people then the enemy..

Psh, you'ze wouldn't know a flash stompa if it was stompin' on yer 'ead.

[Tongue_reaper]

Another troll? :P This game is going down.... a pity

I ain't trolling, just merely expressing my view...

Also, if relic is taking the story and storytelling methods back to the dow1s roots, 1 race that allows (and is necessary) to tell the tale of blood ravens is completely understandable and even desirable. My personal opinion is that we dont need another 7 race 'pick your favourite and kill all others' campaign, it just doesnt serve anyone

You got a point there... touché my friend

If they're really squeezing all 4 chaos mini factions into DoW2, differing Daemons, Greater Daemons and all, then I'm not surprised or disappointed that the expansion will only contain Chaos. That's one hell of a tall order.

Now there's one thing I totally forgot about (due to the constant arguing of wheter or not this will actualy be viable). If they manage to pull it off with one chaos army, but different special units for each commander, I would totally forget about the addition of another race (although that is very unlikely 'cause we've all seen that only Khornate units are being mentioned...).

[Alegis]

It's probably been mentioned already but it's likely that we'll see 5 commanders, one for each god and then an undivided.

Also as likely are 7 new special commanders which are each only available one day of the week, so that makes 12!

I've only heard of Lord Mondaytorius so far but I gather he's rather hotheaded.